The opponents aren't zombies anymore!

[Postmortem]

Hi all,

I've played hundreds of hours on the A16 and really loved it (thanks to the devs for making it!)

Then A17 came and I've read both good and bad about the new pathfinding AI, so I was curious to see it in action.

And when I did, it went like this: I was sitting on a wall when a zombie spotted me and came walking towards me. I expected him to start hitting the wall underneath me, but he did quite the opposite: he turned around and walked away. While I was still puzzled, he walked into a nearby building and then reappeared on the roof. I realized there was some sort of catwalk leading to another building, which in turn was connected by a balcony to the far end of my wall. And true enough, the zombie crossed the roof, went over the crosswalk, over the other roof, jumped on the balcony and straight onto my wall.

 

That's where I quit. Not because I don't like the new XP system (and I don't like it). Also not because I don't like how the game has shifted from a scavenging-building-survial game to a multiplayer-heavy FPS (and I don't like that either).

But I quit because of one should-be-obvious eyesore of a fact: this guy was not a zombie anymore! Zombies are dumb by definition, thick as a brick.

An opponent who can think, who can evaluate a situation and choose the best way to a target may be more challenging, but the point is that it is not a zombie. And a zombie game without zombies simply is no fun.

 

So I would like to say this to the developers: you have changed the zombies, and I don't like it. Please please please with sugar on top, change it back! Give me back proper zombies, brain-eating but brain-dead, the Night of the Living Dumb.

That is how zombies are supposed to be! And nothing else will work in this game because believe it or not, it's a zombie game you're developing! Stop experimenting and focus on what this game is good at.

 

One more thing while we're at it: what gives with feral zombies on day 2?? I seriously ran into one of those on day 2, got shredded by a pack of dogs on day 3, and attacked by 4 vultures at once (!!) only minutes later. Of course I fought like a lion, whacked one so good in the beak he'll be sipping his roadkill du jour through a straw for a while. Then the other 3 ripped me to shreds. Again.

So I´ve had hundreds of hours on the A16 and thought I know the game, but in A17 all I did was dying, dying and then dying again. And then I got a little reaper icon at the edge of the screen and when I checked it out, it said "that´s your punishment for dying so much, dumbass!" (or something to that effect). So I'm having difficulties with the new game mechanics, the game even realizes this, and then it punishes me for it??? How about some help instead??? Or even better, how about a frickin handbook?? You know, the things devs used to write to explain their games? That would be great, especially if you want new players to play this for longer than 3 ingame days before going for a refund. And believe me, they will.

 

I would also very much appreciate to hear from a developer if those changes are experiments and may well be reversed or if this is the definite way 7DTD is going to be.

I simply want to know if I can put my hopes up for A18, or if this once-great game has pretty much been ruined by turning it into a multiplayer shooter (in which case I'd be surprised to even see an A18 though because this game will not work as Zombie Fortnite. There are already too many better games covering that kind of gameplay).

[Roland]

Thanks for the feedback. Balancing is ongoing. Zombie pathfinding is in its infancy so it does result in some oddities. Devs plan to continue to improve it. In every game you play the computer controlled opponents always have complete information. Good AI masks this and simulates ignorance and mistakes to a believable level. We are seeing the raw AI in rudimentary form which still shows that it really does know all. As development continues the zombies will appear to be dumber and more random in their behaviors—or at least this is the goal.

 

PS: A lot of people are finding Adventurer a more suitable difficulty level for single player. (One step below default)

[Feycat]

You know you can just go back to A16 if it bugs you, right?

 

I can assure you they are not going to reverse the AI. They've worked on it for over a year.

[LuckyStar]

Anyone else see the irony of someone called postmortem making a Quit thread?

 

 

[Doctor3D]

The AI has the potential to be much better than before and in many ways it already is. It just has a few quirks. Also keep in mind it's not just a "Zombie" game - there will be human AI (bandits) coming in the future as well. I'd imagine that some of the core functions of this new AI will be used for bandit pathing and they will just make the zombie use a less accurate and more random variable of the same mechanic. Bandits will take the more logical routes while zombies may be a bit more random about the choice. I'm just guessing though...

 

If you don't want tougher zombies so early - you'll need to lower the difficulty so that you get a smaller gamestage score. The game can be a bit tougher in the early game when going in POIs and things. I encounter radiated zombies usually within the first week or two of a playthrough, and it can get a bit cramped fighting them in there especially when your damage output and health are both so low that early. The more you play it though - the better you get at it - just like anything else.

 

As far as a handbook - well there is the in-game journal and the wiki when updated is pretty useful too.

[Postmortem]

You know you can just go back to A16 if it bugs you, right?

 

I could do that. But I don't want to because there are improvements in the A17 that I want, like the bigger map, new locations, or the new vehicles.

To me, one of the greatest joys in real life is riding motorbikes, so I was looking forward to zipping through Navezgane on that new bad-ass bike!

[Postmortem]

Thanks for the answer.. the prospect of the AI getting dumber in the future gives some hope at least. I guess I'll wait for the stable version and then give it another shot.

It's true that the zombies right now seem to know paths they haven't seen yet, which would even feel wrong in a living opponent.

[ricp]

So I would like to say this to the developers: you have changed the zombies, and I don't like it. Please please please with sugar on top, change it back! Give me back proper zombies, brain-eating but brain-dead, the Night of the Living Dumb.

That is how zombies are supposed to be! And nothing else will work in this game because believe it or not, it's a zombie game you're developing! Stop experimenting and focus on what this game is good at.

 

I was going to write a sensible reply about the cannon of zombies and that it runs the gamut from Romero-esque shambling slow messes, to rage filled sprinters like 28 Days Later. So this whole "they are not zombies" is really daft.

 

Honestly though? Your post is just utter rubbish. If you find it too hard, turn down the difficulty. Don't ask TFP to take what is a fairly easy game and nerf it more because you can't hack it.

 

Oh, and don't complain about zombies in a zombie game, sheesh!

[Katitof]

Rename them to "infected", there, done, you can now do anything with them because there is no universally agreed upon lore definition of "infected" and now they may retain intelligence, manual skills, handle tools/weapons/firearms, be fast, be crafty but primal.

[Postmortem]

I was going to write a sensible reply about the cannon of zombies and that it runs the gamut from Romero-esque shambling slow messes, to rage filled sprinters like 28 Days Later. So this whole "they are not zombies" is really daft.

 

You're right that there were movies in which zombies were depicted as being fast and intelligent. I even saw one were they could operate machinery and use guns. But that was simply bad movies too.

I don't even have a problem with some zombies running faster than others, there´s no reason why they shouldn't be able do that. But I have a problem with zombies that think.

 

Think about it: a zombie is dead, right? So that means by definition that it has no higher brain functions, right? So how could a zombie ever think, even in the most simplistic way? If it can do that, it can't be dead, and then it can't be a zombie. Simple as that.

[Viktoriusiii]

The problem is not their intelligence.

It is their absolute knowledge of the world and of their surroundings that completely destroy any semblance of immersion.

No immersion shouldn't negatively impact gameplay, but read the OPs post again and tell me, that it was logical to go into one house (probably having to deal with multiple doors) and other things that block its way, rather than just breaking two blocks.

 

If you were the zombie what would seem more sensible to you?

[Postmortem]

Rename them to "infected", there, done, you can now do anything with them because there is no universally agreed upon lore definition of "infected" and now they may retain intelligence, manual skills, handle tools/weapons/firearms, be fast, be crafty but primal.

 

That's a good one, actually.. "Infected" would not be dead yet, just infected. So they could still think.

 

The problem here is that it would reduce the "zombie minecraft" idea to just another sandbox game where you shoot people going after you, what's the big difference if they're infected with something or not? I just liked the idea of the original game where you felt like you're the last living human being in that particular part of the world.

Granted the traders made no sense in that context, but they always felt wrong to me anyway, they were just not such a plot-stopper as thinking zombies.

 

So if we call the zombies "infected" and consider them to be alive, the feeling which made the original game special and innovative would be gone. A zombie is scary, exactly because it is not alive and is still coming after you. An "Infected" is just another human being, nothing scary there.

[Morloc]

I suspect the problem is that in order to have game challenge, you either need to have "smarter" zombies, tougher zombies (we don't seem to want bullet-sponges...or at least not many of them), or more zombies. I think most of us want that last option....but I'm guessing it's in the realm of "not possible" due to the game's limitations.

 

I completely agree that smart zombies are meh. I'd love to take refuge up on a roof, and see their masses just keep building below. Sure, they're a turkey-shoot, but how much ammo do I have? The sound of my gunshots bringing still more. They're not smart enough to work together to break down the doors I boarded up, but now and then one of them will crash against the door, making me wonder how long they will hold.

 

I think our game lacks the "ZPUs" to give us the option we really want.

 

 

-Morloc

[Katitof]

That's a good one, actually.. "Infected" would not be dead yet, just infected. So they could still think.

 

The problem here is that it would reduce the "zombie minecraft" idea to just another sandbox game where you shoot people going after you, what's the big difference if they're infected with something or not? I just liked the idea of the original game where you felt like you're the last living human being in that particular part of the world.

Granted the traders made no sense in that context, but they always felt wrong to me anyway, they were just not such a plot-stopper as thinking zombies.

 

So if we call the zombies "infected" and consider them to be alive, the feeling which made the original game special and innovative would be gone. A zombie is scary, exactly because it is not alive and is still coming after you. An "Infected" is just another human being, nothing scary there.

 

Alife or not doesn't really make much of a difference anyway if they look the same.

Lore doesn't affect the gameplay feeling in the slightest and you have plenty of IPs where regular zombies retain some intelligence.

 

How was called that one old movie, where people hid from zombies in shopping center and were fighting both, biker gang and zombies with ability to use simple tools and even a gun at one point?

 

Remember The Last of us?

Also infected, they could just as well be called mushroom zombies and absolutely nothing would change in the game.

Same deal really.

Or The Walking Dead, different groups call zombies in different ways, it doesn't change in the slightest how you feel about them, hell, you cal them zombies instead of walkers as well and it doesn't change anything.

 

 

Its just semantics for people who struggle to cope, so if name change will put them at ease, I couldn't care less.

[Kalen]

I suspect the problem is that in order to have game challenge, you either need to have "smarter" zombies, tougher zombies (we don't seem to want bullet-sponges...or at least not many of them), or more zombies. I think most of us want that last option....but I'm guessing it's in the realm of "not possible" due to the game's limitations.

 

I completely agree that smart zombies are meh. I'd love to take refuge up on a roof, and see their masses just keep building below. Sure, they're a turkey-shoot, but how much ammo do I have? The sound of my gunshots bringing still more. They're not smart enough to work together to break down the doors I boarded up, but now and then one of them will crash against the door, making me wonder how long they will hold.

 

I think our game lacks the "ZPUs" to give us the option we really want.

 

 

-Morloc

 

Perfectly put.... I agree with this in its entirety

[ricp]

But that was simply bad movies too.

 

28 Days Later is a bad movie? I think you'll find yourself in a minority there bud!

 

Think about it: a zombie is dead, right? So that means by definition that it has no higher brain functions, right? So how could a zombie ever think, even in the most simplistic way? If it can do that, it can't be dead, and then it can't be a zombie. Simple as that.

 

Again, you seem to be basing the term zombie on a fairly narrow definition.

 

What I would say is that in relation to AI, it saves a lot of computing time if the pathing is worked out fully. Ideally you want them to shamble into a building, look around, see a corridor, walk down it, if it's a dead end then they either attack the block or turn around. Incremental steps rather than a pre-defined route. Sadly having the zombies do this would reduce the speed the game runs at. In that sense, you just have to have a trade off that they seem a little cleverer than they really should be, and for that trade off the game runs better.

[Sjustus548]

I personally love the new zombie path finding and think the devs have done an amazing job with it. I can't wait to see how they are going to improve on it even further.

 

As for your post it is mostly just another "I'm bad at the game and wish the devs would make it easier for me" posts. Just turn down the difficulty if you are finding the game too hard. This is by far the easiest build the game has had since I've started playing many patches ago.

[PoppaTot]

I personally love the new zombie path finding and think the devs have done an amazing job with it. I can't wait to see how they are going to improve on it even further.

 

As for your post it is mostly just another "I'm bad at the game and wish the devs would make it easier for me" posts. Just turn down the difficulty if you are finding the game too hard. This is by far the easiest build the game has had since I've started playing many patches ago.

 

I like it because I don't cheese it into a loop, I hate it because most of the people I watch on YT/Twitch cheese it into a loop lol.

[ricp]

As for your post it is mostly just another "I'm bad at the game and wish the devs would make it easier for me" posts. Just turn down the difficulty if you are finding the game too hard. This is by far the easiest build the game has had since I've started playing many patches ago.

 

This is entirely anecdotal, I don't have any stats to back it up, but it seems like each build of A17Exp has been getting easier. A move I have to say I lament. That said, I'm forever telling people who find it too hard to turn down their difficulty so in that sense I should take my own medicine and raise mine. The problem with that, at least for me and my current PC, the FPS isn't good enough to run it at max difficulty.

[Kalarro]

As for your post it is mostly just another "I'm bad at the game and wish the devs would make it easier for me" posts. Just turn down the difficulty if you are finding the game too hard. This is by far the easiest build the game has had since I've started playing many patches ago.

 

Either you are just reading 1 out of every 10 posts, or you are playing deaf (blind?)

 

The new AI (at least in it's current state, Roland's comment may suggest they will make them more random like in the fuuture), is not harder. It's just more boring. Instead of a lot of zombies surrounding your base beating on it, you got a conga goin،g for you in a line, which can be defended by doing a simple ramp and stayin on top with a few blocks distance. This is just 1 of several cheesy ways to defend against it.

The old AI was fun. It needed fixes bc they got stuck without knowing what to do sometimes. But they encouraged cool bases. The new AI encourages exploiting pathing instead of building perimeter defenses.

 

But some blind readers keep answering the concerns with, l2p, lower difficulty, or similar things. Which has nothing to do with the concerns.

[RyanX]

I suspect the problem is that in order to have game challenge, you either need to have "smarter" zombies, tougher zombies (we don't seem to want bullet-sponges...or at least not many of them), or more zombies. I think most of us want that last option....but I'm guessing it's in the realm of "not possible" due to the game's limitations.

 

I completely agree that smart zombies are meh. I'd love to take refuge up on a roof, and see their masses just keep building below. Sure, they're a turkey-shoot, but how much ammo do I have? The sound of my gunshots bringing still more. They're not smart enough to work together to break down the doors I boarded up, but now and then one of them will crash against the door, making me wonder how long they will hold.

 

I think our game lacks the "ZPUs" to give us the option we really want.

 

 

-Morloc

 

+1

 

Also...to make lemonade out of lemons, this new AI seems to hold the groundwork for those mythical NPC bandits.

[Noompsie]

Oh OP, you made the fatal error of criticizing the game and now the forum will come for you and eat your brains.

 

But seriously, I know how you are feeling. I have been there, and lamented my loss lol. But there is a lot to like about A17 as well and I am hoping that it will balance out in the end. (Not so sure since the latest patch though, Intel 5? Really?)

 

Anyway, you are always able to play A16 instead and who knows, I may see you there. Time will tell.

[Rez090]

Alife or not doesn't really make much of a difference anyway if they look the same.

Lore doesn't affect the gameplay feeling in the slightest and you have plenty of IPs where regular zombies retain some intelligence.

 

How was called that one old movie, where people hid from zombies in shopping center and were fighting both, biker gang and zombies with ability to use simple tools and even a gun at one point?

 

Remember The Last of us?

Also infected, they could just as well be called mushroom zombies and absolutely nothing would change in the game.

Same deal really.

Or The Walking Dead, different groups call zombies in different ways, it doesn't change in the slightest how you feel about them, hell, you cal them zombies instead of walkers as well and it doesn't change anything.

 

 

Its just semantics for people who struggle to cope, so if name change will put them at ease, I couldn't care less.

 

You're thinking of Dawn of the Dead with the shopping mall and fighting zombies and humans but wrong part about tools and gun. That part is from Land of the Dead.

[Krougal]

Anyone else see the irony of someone called postmortem making a Quit thread?

 

I thought the same thing!

 

I suspect the problem is that in order to have game challenge, you either need to have "smarter" zombies, tougher zombies (we don't seem to want bullet-sponges...or at least not many of them), or more zombies. I think most of us want that last option....but I'm guessing it's in the realm of "not possible" due to the game's limitations.

 

I completely agree that smart zombies are meh. I'd love to take refuge up on a roof, and see their masses just keep building below. Sure, they're a turkey-shoot, but how much ammo do I have? The sound of my gunshots bringing still more. They're not smart enough to work together to break down the doors I boarded up, but now and then one of them will crash against the door, making me wonder how long they will hold.

 

I think our game lacks the "ZPUs" to give us the option we really want.

 

 

-Morloc

 

So much this!

 

To the people arguing canon, sure there's multiple franchises with their own rules, and the "infected" argument is a valid way to look at it.

It really comes down to personal prefs, and it seems most of us like 'em slow and dumb, quantity over quality.

I think The Pimps would probably give us that too (or at least the option) if it wouldn't tank game performance to unplayable.

 

Even Dying Light, which mixes in specials along with a bulk of run of the mill zeds, still has to do a lot of tricks to make it feel like there's a huge horde around you. The bridge is a perfect example where there is just a huge mass of them milling around during the day, but if you observe you'll see that only the group in your immediate area is active. The others just stand there, maybe shuffle around a little, but you can perch on top of a bus and shoot them and they won't take damage, nor activate until you get into range. Now DL doesn't have to do all the voxel world stuff 7D does so while it works perfectly for DL the same probably can't be done for 7D.

[Cadamier]

Well, this is only one piece of what can happen with a 'total re-write' of the game as they've noted. As most of us have seen first hand - the AI is much, much better and refined. As Roland noted - this is the raw AI. As we're still in alpha and most importantly as we're still in this first iteration of the new and improved AI there will need to be tweaks!!! Just as the skills, etc just got a tweak so too will the AI.

 

Now - how about this for thought... In PVP mode you can switch back to this RAW AI on top of your PVP'ing lol