Underground bases - what's the status of making them vulnerable to zombies?

[badgerpns]

How dare you. Those of us who like to walk/hop vertically through water, enjoy the water holes, like the bare dirt aesthetics, and enjoy the lack of any sort of POI or enemy presence would appreciate you leaving us alone. Don’t forcibly remove our playstyle!

 

 

Shhhh Roland! Don't bring water into this! I don't want any fanbois ruining my 1.000 batting average of surviving horde nights in the middle of a lake with my thumb taped to the space bar. How dare you tell me how to play my game!

[Maharin]

It would be too OP. Building a base with a four-block wide drawbridge leading to a single door would cause all the zombies to stop attacking and start walking around in circles and making sudden outbursts of stuttered euphemisms.

 

How about zombies riding minibikes? To be convincing they only need to drive like Madmole in the videos.

[TSBX]

Hey Roland, how about a poll? I know it's small sample of players but since they are done all the time anyway... Given MadMoles recent comment on diggers how about a poll asking if people are in favor of digging zombies or think a better solution should be looked into?

 

It's been done, nothing changed from that thread into this one. Good thought though!

[Roland]

Crater....?

[Sydious]

Crater....?

 

It's been that for year's...

[Crater Creator]

Hey Roland, how about a poll? I know it's small sample of players but since they are done all the time anyway... Given MadMoles recent comment on diggers how about a poll asking if people are in favor of digging zombies or think a better solution should be looked into?

 

Crater....?

I'm here!

 

The only reason I hadn't responded yet is because I was looking through previous polling data.

 

Here's what those say.

 

[table=width: 500, class: grid]

[tr]

[td]Date[/td]

[td]Poll Question[/td]

[td]Winner[/td]

[td]Votes[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]December 2015[/td]

[td]Should you be able to hide from zombie hordes?[/td]

[td]Yes. Strategies that make it impossible for them to detect you should be in the game.[/td]

[td]77 (70.00%)

[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]January 2017[/td]

[td]What is your preference on zombies that can dig?[/td]

[td]I wish SOME zombie types had the power to dig downward.[/td]

[td]78 (39.80%)

[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]March 2017[/td]

[td]What is your opinion about underground gameplay?[/td]

[td]There should be environmental threats AND active enemy threats underground[/td]

[td]68 (40.48%)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]October 2017[/td]

[td]I would enjoy the game the most if...[/td]

[td]zombies could (eventually) reach me from any location.[/td]

[td]114 (44.53%)

[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

 

So that's what we know from users to date. Note these polls didn't have expiration dates, so you can still vote in them if you're so inclined. Let me know if this satisfies, or if people still think a new poll is warranted.

[Roland]

What? No poll in 2018?

 

I think a new one is warranted with all the new members we've gotten in 2018-- plus while voting might be okay if anyone tries to comment on those old threads they risk SylenThunder's scorn....

[Sydious]

I'm here!

 

The only reason I hadn't responded yet is because I was looking through previous polling data.

 

Here's what those say.

 

[table=width: 500, class: grid]

[tr]

[td]Date[/td]

[td]Poll Question[/td]

[td]Winner[/td]

[td]Votes[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]December 2015[/td]

[td]Should you be able to hide from zombie hordes?[/td]

[td]Yes. Strategies that make it impossible for them to detect you should be in the game.[/td]

[td]77 (70.00%)

[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]January 2017[/td]

[td]What is your preference on zombies that can dig?[/td]

[td]I wish SOME zombie types had the power to dig downward.[/td]

[td]78 (39.80%)

[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]March 2017[/td]

[td]What is your opinion about underground gameplay?[/td]

[td]There should be environmental threats AND active enemy threats underground[/td]

[td]68 (40.48%)[/td]

[/tr]

[tr]

[td]October 2017[/td]

[td]I would enjoy the game the most if...[/td]

[td]zombies could (eventually) reach me from any location.[/td]

[td]114 (44.53%)

[/td]

[/tr]

[/table]

 

So that's what we know from users to date. Note these polls didn't have expiration dates, so you can still vote in them if you're so inclined. Let me know if this satisfies, or if people still think a new poll is warranted.

 

I just looked at most of those before posting last. You SIR are a super trooper.

[Menace312]

How about zombies riding minibikes? To be convincing they only need to drive like Madmole in the videos.

 

I pictured this in my head...

Actually a great idea... Perhaps a little silly, but orh man the fun

 

[Gazz]

Yes, and zombies in clown cars just pouring out.

 

Or is that mole cars because we're apparently talking about underground bicycle zombies?

[Crater Creator]

What? No poll in 2018?

 

I think a new one is warranted with all the new members we've gotten in 2018-- plus while voting might be okay if anyone tries to comment on those old threads they risk SylenThunder's scorn....

 

I'm game, but not sure what the options should be. One would be digger zombies, but the other option could be "anything that's not diggers," or else we pick a number of the other ideas floating around, which will take some time to select.

[SylenThunder]

What? No poll in 2018?

 

I think a new one is warranted with all the new members we've gotten in 2018-- plus while voting might be okay if anyone tries to comment on those old threads they risk SylenThunder's scorn....

I'm running out of epic-ly cool and unique heatshot gifs to put in them.

[Menace312]

Yes, and zombies in clown cars just pouring out.

 

Or is that mole cars because we're apparently talking about underground bicycle zombies?

 

Hah! Yeah, the thread kinda diverged from the original topic...

But I guess the topic is mute anyway, since MM confirmed a kind of digger in his last vid.

[Perramas]

I'm game, but not sure what the options should be. One would be digger zombies

 

In an earlier alpha zombies used to dig down and it was a total disaster and had to be removed. The landscape after a couple hordes was swiss cheeses with craters everywhere.

[meganoth]

If you read my posts, you'll find I'm very much in the "Live and Let Lie" camp on how other people want to play the game. If someone wants to play it underground then I say more power to 'em.

 

It is, and I've said this specifically, the dangers to compromised SI that I'm not in favour of digging zombies. I don't ever want to see my pretty, above ground base, fall into a sinkhole created by digging and/or tunneling zombies which I never saw and didn't even know where there slowly tunneling away under my base trying to reach me.

 

If anything, that solution makes an underground base (at bedrock) even more of an "I Win" button than it already is.

 

Sorry if I misunderstood you.

 

tldr; SI dangers are a welcome addition, no problem or solvable, depending on how you play

 

I wasn't around when the SI issue with digging zombies was a thing. So I can't speak from experience. But I think I would be thrilled if some sort of SI danger existed for my base. Think about how it is after the first 2 weeks in a 7d2d world (if we exclude long-running public MP games for the moment). Practically your chests are filled to the brim and you just hoard most of the stuff because it could become useful later on. Which it never does, when you finally start a new game the old one has just more chests filled with stuff.

 

This may change somewhat with balancing but there is no reason to suppose anything in the game isn't replacable or reparable. Especially the base itself, it practically never happens that the complete base implodes if SI hits you, it would be just some edge of it and you'd be warned.

 

So only players on long-running games, i.e. sand-box builders and players on public MP servers will have an issue with this. And we all know the simple solution of providing an option or EAC-friendly mod for them. But that might not even be necessary:

 

Imagine the land claim block having the ability to slowly fill in blocks in a 7x7 area down to bedrock. Problem solved. Ok, you would not be able to build an access tunnel to bedrock in that area, but who cares, just move the tunnel to outside the area.

 

Or digging zombies are prevented from digging in that area around the land claim block at all. Not the best solution IMHO but probably easy to implement.

 

Or you can build a sensor that warns you of any SI dangers. On PvP servers this would probably need to be restricted to land claim block areas, otherwise a tool that builders would love to get their hands on anyway.

[meganoth]

In an earlier alpha zombies used to dig down and it was a total disaster and had to be removed. The landscape after a couple hordes was swiss cheeses with craters everywhere.

 

Ok, but this depends a lot on zombie AI how likely a zombie will dig down. Make zombies less likely to dig --> less swiss cheese. Make only some zombies dig --> less swiss cheese.

[meganoth]

What? No poll in 2018?

 

I think a new one is warranted with all the new members we've gotten in 2018-- plus while voting might be okay if anyone tries to comment on those old threads they risk SylenThunder's scorn....

 

The similarities between you and a cruise ship entertainer are striking: Trying to get the tourists to engage in meaningless activities while waiting for the ship to reach the next port.

[canadianbluebeer]

I still think having them attack the hatches/doors is the best way.

 

Drawbridge that drops to a ramp: ok, bash under the bridge. You did put defenses there, did you not?

Hatches: a door that fell over.

 

Drawbridge on the ground leading to ramp: it's a door.

 

This would mean you would have to have secondary doors, hatches inside, you'd have to beef up the wall or they would start digging horizontally like they already do.

 

Not to mention have to put defenses inside the base.

 

No swiss cheese effect beyond what we already get if a zombie falls in a hole/pit.

 

Not to mention, probably the easiest to code.

 

Oh, make it a specific zombie to beat up on hatches. Spiders climb, Mole/Badger looks for hatches.

smiple.

 

(yes, you could also just put a hatch over a pit and have them fall to their doom, but hey, serves'em right.

Of course, you'd have to dig a deep pit, and put things that go zap/boom etc at the bottom, or they're gonna trash yer stuff)

 

[Maharin]

Yes, and zombies in clown cars just pouring out.

 

Or is that mole cars because we're apparently talking about underground bicycle zombies?

 

I might have thought I was in a different thread with that last post. Or maybe it got moved on me. /shrug People can't possibly expect me to keep track of everything I say and do... That's what the surveillance cameras are for!

[Shelgeyr]

Even though large tracts of Navezgane

and many old and famous UMAs

have fallen or may fall

into the grip of the moats

and all the odious apparatus of traps,

we shall not flag or fail.

 

We shall go on to the end.

 

We shall fight in RWG,

we shall fight on the seas and oceans,

we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air,

we shall eat your brains, whatever the cost may be.

 

We shall fight on the platforms,

we shall fight on the bedrock,

we shall fight in the wilderness and in the POIs,

we shall fight on the uneven varied terrain;

 

We shall never surrender.

 

And even if, which I do not for a moment believe,

this ravenous horde or a large part of it were exploited and confused,

then our Bandits beyond the seas,

armed and guarded by the programmers,

would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time,

the new AI, with all its power and might, steps forth

to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

 

- Zedston Lurchwell, Prime Minister of Zombland

Somehow manages to simultaneously remind me of

,

, and

.

Well Done!

[Crater Creator]

What? No poll in 2018?

 

I think a new one is warranted with all the new members we've gotten in 2018-- plus while voting might be okay if anyone tries to comment on those old threads they risk SylenThunder's scorn....

 

No poll yet. But thinking about a poll did force me to read the entirety of this thread looking for ideas. I've compiled and categorized every on-topic thought people have offered on the subject.

 

Ideas for underground threats can be broken into two categories: entity-based threats and environment-based threats. Then there are underground ideas beyond added threats; and lastly the thoughts, opinions, and assertions that come up every time we discuss this that are focused on things other than improving gameplay.

 

A: Entity-based threats

 

1. Digger Z: Zombies that dig, perhaps with a maximum depth they’ll dig, or weaknesses outside of digging
   
2. Digger Non-Z: Non-zombies that dig, like bandits, animals, or earthquakes
   
3. Filler: Zombies or other entities that fill in tunnels, potentially burying the player
   
4. Sleeper: Dens/buried graves of sleeper zombies/animals/monsters
   
5. Sentry: Zombies that wait at the surface until you come out, without despawning
   
6. Gate Crasher: Zombies that target & attack hatches like they already target doors
   
7. Worms: Small critters that squeeze in through blocks without destroying them
   
8. Bread crumbs: The player leaves a ‘scent trail’ for zombies to follow
   

 

 

B: Environment-based threats

 

1. Ventilation: Oxygen is limited, with some mechanism(s) to combat this
   
2. Flooding: Cavities sometimes fill with water
   
3. Localized hazards: Players get hurt if they get too close to poison gas, explosive gas, lava, or a pit
   
4. Cumulative hazards: Radiation, dust, temperature, lack of sunlight, or ‘insanity’ builds up for the player while underground
   
5. Barren: Farming is inhibited, so players have to leave the base more often
   

 

 

C: Other, Non-Threat-Based Underground Ideas

 

1. Bedrock: Terrain is literally indestructible and there is no underground.
   
2. Content: More complex caves and/or underground POIs are added.
   
3. Buyout: Players can pay a trader/settlement for safety.
   
4. Undetected: Stealth perks/skills allow the player to stay undetected, even on horde night.
   
5. Suppression: A mechanism prevents certain zombies from spawning in the first place.
   
6. Foundation: The player can automatically detect or fill holes under a base, and/or prevent digging there.
   

 

 

D: Other Thoughts That May or May Not Be Correct, But People Are Very Vocal About

Originally, I was thinking if we did do a poll, this would be the list of off-topic things that would be culled to a separate thread.

 

1. There are other ways to avoid zombies for little effort.
   
2. The player will always find a way to circumvent intended gameplay.
   
3. Underground gameplay is fine and no changes are needed.
   
4. Mods should provide underground gameplay for those that want it.
   
5. The player can’t defend against digger zombies as they’re coming.
   
6. In addition to avoiding threats, players underground avoid benefits like XP.
   
7. The zombies don’t ‘play fair,’ either.
   
8. Anything should be optional.
   
9. Anecdotally, zombies have already gotten into underground bases.
   
10. Players can choose to avoid the underground, or anything else they don’t like.
    
11. Sometimes a player wants a break from the zombies.
    
12. Changes could affect the playstyle of some players.
    

 

---

So is this useful? Is there a poll to be had out of this? I don't know at this point. But now we can at least save a lot of time by just shouting "A6!" "D8!" "C3!" "D7!" at each other, since we pretty much make the same points every time.

[OzHawkeye]

So is this useful? Is there a poll to be had out of this? I don't know at this point. But now we can at least save a lot of time by just shouting "A6!" "D8!" "C3!" "D7!" at each other, since we pretty much make the same points every time.

 

We could like, play, (underground) Base Bingo! Sounds good to me. :-)

[RestInPieces]

So is this useful? Is there a poll to be had out of this? I don't know at this point. But now we can at least save a lot of time by just shouting "A6!" "D8!" "C3!" "D7!" at each other, since we pretty much make the same points every time.

 

It is useful, save from D. I think it would be more useful to create a poll focusing on hypothetical optional underground solutions, rather than another wasteful discussion about if underground needs a solution or not, because the developers are already planning it afaik and it can always be optional, like pretty much everything else.

[canadianbluebeer]

Well, unless they can go through bedrock, then it comes down to, have an open area around your underground base (top to bedrock).

Zombies dig, they come out in the empty area.

 

Where the player and defenses just smash them.

 

More work for the player, but really, negates diggers completely.

 

I'm currently clearing a HUGE area around my base (soo many goodies to mine it's just insane)

 

If I go 40 blocks out all the way around, let'em come. They''ll die.

 

Now, early on, they will be an issue. Putting the forges way out somewhere underground, will only work if they are under a drop pit.

(which, thinking about it, is what I should have done).

 

They find the heat, come look, fall in, and the turrets/traps etc take care of them.

 

So in future, it'll be base down to bedrock (with topside fortress), find good pit location at least 2 chunks away, dig pit to bedrock, put forges etc on bedrock, but above that, is the bait of open hole. Plop, zap, bam, loot.

 

So unless they start digging from far away, non-issue.

 

As someone else said though, how do you defend against them?

Open area before they get to the vitals.

Outer wall can just be wood. Cheap, easy to repair. Not as if they will really keep them out.

 

I do want the basher one though, that type should already be in the game. That at least makes sense.

 

just my 2 coppers, again.

[Aerial]

Well, unless they can go through bedrock, then it comes down to, have an open area around your underground base (top to bedrock).

Zombies dig, they come out in the empty area.

 

Where the player and defenses just smash them.

 

More work for the player, but really, negates diggers completely.

 

I'm currently clearing a HUGE area around my base (soo many goodies to mine it's just insane)

 

If I go 40 blocks out all the way around, let'em come. They''ll die.

 

Now, early on, they will be an issue. Putting the forges way out somewhere underground, will only work if they are under a drop pit.

(which, thinking about it, is what I should have done).

 

They find the heat, come look, fall in, and the turrets/traps etc take care of them.

 

So in future, it'll be base down to bedrock (with topside fortress), find good pit location at least 2 chunks away, dig pit to bedrock, put forges etc on bedrock, but above that, is the bait of open hole. Plop, zap, bam, loot.

 

So unless they start digging from far away, non-issue.

 

As someone else said though, how do you defend against them?

Open area before they get to the vitals.

Outer wall can just be wood. Cheap, easy to repair. Not as if they will really keep them out.

 

I do want the basher one though, that type should already be in the game. That at least makes sense.

 

just my 2 coppers, again.

 

There will always be a way to build protection from zombies and there should be. What you describe above is a pretty large undertaking and all that work ought to result in near-immunity from the zombie horde so long as you maintain your infrastructure.

 

But if all you have to do to be safe is dig a 3x5 hole in the dirt and put a hatch over it, that's not good game mechanics. So the digger's role should be to make it necessary to build defenses underground just like they're necessary above ground.