Why was this feature removed?

[AidenwithAnAxe]

The feature that gives a scent when you carry food was removed? or am i just losing my mind? Because i swear it's missing from the game. was this change made a while ago? i just remembered it after watching my old clips. was this change made because it was annoying for gameplay? or were there too many food items they would have to account for? 🧐

[YourMirror]

That was removed a very long time ago. Like in the year 1814.

Edited Friday at 02:36 PM by YourMirror
clarification (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

41 minutes ago, AidenwithAnAxe said:

The feature that gives a scent when you carry food was removed?

Yes, it has been removed. The last PC version that included this feature was Alpha 15. 

 

I don't know if there were technical reasons or if the feature was not what the developers had in mind.

The modern equivalent is the Feral Sense. Feral Sense is based on noises. You kick a can and zombies from all over the area are heading your way.

Edited Friday at 02:55 PM by RipClaw (see edit history)

[SylenThunder]

The feature was removed because there was not enough overhead to support the code for both it, and the breadcrumb system. So it was removed temporarily.

 

Originally the plan was to bring it back later after a lot of optimizations were done closer to the end of development. However the last time I asked the devs about this, I was informed that the Feral Sense system was the stand-in replacement for the smell system. At which point I became extremely disappointed. I got the impression, (or was told directly, I don't recall 100%), that the original smell system would not be returning.

 

Which just about made me rage-quit at that time.

[Riamus]

10 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

The feature was removed because there was not enough overhead to support the code for both it, and the breadcrumb system. So it was removed temporarily.

 

Originally the plan was to bring it back later after a lot of optimizations were done closer to the end of development. However the last time I asked the devs about this, I was informed that the Feral Sense system was the stand-in replacement for the smell system. At which point I became extremely disappointed. I got the impression, (or was told directly, I don't recall 100%), that the original smell system would not be returning.

 

Which just about made me rage-quit at that time.

Someone (faatal, maybe) said within the past 6 months or so that they would be interested in maybe bringing it back.  I forget whether it was a post here or if it was instead in a dev stream where I saw them comment on it.  Or maybe I'm just not remembering it correctly.

[Adam the Waster]

1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

The feature was removed because there was not enough overhead to support the code for both it, and the breadcrumb system. So it was removed temporarily.

 

Originally the plan was to bring it back later after a lot of optimizations were done closer to the end of development. However the last time I asked the devs about this, I was informed that the Feral Sense system was the stand-in replacement for the smell system. At which point I became extremely disappointed. I got the impression, (or was told directly, I don't recall 100%), that the original smell system would not be returning.

 

Which just about made me rage-quit at that time.

I still think it's a damn shame they removed the future anything to make the game harder would make the game nice

[AidenwithAnAxe]

3 hours ago, YourMirror said:

That was removed a very long time ago. Like in the year 1814.

no no, you see cause that makes sense. I absolutely forgot it's been that long!

[zztong]

3 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

I was informed that the Feral Sense system was the stand-in replacement for the smell system. At which point I became extremely disappointed.

 

I find that disappointing too.

 

The Feral Sense system has potential, but isn't something I turn on now. I think it needs qualifiers to be useful. That is, I'd like to be able to set conditions that would determine when Feral Sense was effective. For instance:

• Which zombies have Feral Sense. Perhaps only Feral Zombies have Feral Sense.
• When zombies can use Feral Sense. Perhaps Feral Sense only works when there is fog.
• What the zombies actually detect. Perhaps Feral Sense detects raw meat and not life.

[warmer]

6 hours ago, AidenwithAnAxe said:

The feature that gives a scent when you carry food was removed? or am i just losing my mind? Because i swear it's missing from the game. was this change made a while ago? i just remembered it after watching my old clips. was this change made because it was annoying for gameplay? or were there too many food items they would have to account for? 🧐

That has been gone for several years. I also want it back. I think feral sense is their answer to this in a heavy handed way. You used to have to bathe way back in the day as well or our smell would trigger it.

Edited Friday at 08:17 PM by warmer (see edit history)

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, warmer said:

You used to have to bathe way back in the day as well or our smell would trigger it.

 

That drew a chuckle, now I want it lol. 

 

Ewee!

[Kosmic Kerman]

What I remember is the devs saying that the code for stealth and scent was a complete mess. When they revisited that code, it needed a complete refactor and they couldn’t get the scent feature to be sufficiently performant.

[Maharin]

I rage quit every day.  I never even realized there was another way to leave the game. 

[Roland]

After playing with the modern feral sense setting for a while I did go back to an earlier alpha that had the old meat smell sense and I have to say that the feral sense works better in my opinion. I too had fond memories of the dangers of carrying meat but it turns out it was pretty easy to avoid carrying meat and then the feature was basically turned off. Feral sense is always on and requires more vigilance and constant environmental awareness. In addition, the modern feature of zombies running up to eat your animal kills is pretty awesome too.  If they ever bring it back that would be fine but as far as replacements go, Feral Sense is not a bad alternative and I always play with it on.

 

Could also be that the future event manager system could be a way to bring something like smell back. It could be something like when you are carrying food, randomly the game could create an event much like a screamer where zombies spawn a distance away from you and then path towards you but that event can only be triggered when you have food in your inventory.

[theFlu]

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

It could be something like when you are carrying food, randomly the game could create an event

I appreciate the brainstorming; but "spawning zeds in" just isn't the same. Modifying the behaviour of the world feels a lot more natural and immersive, making the existing things more threatening based on your decisions.

 

What would happen to my game time with that.. well, I'd be carrying around meat just to maximize my spawn rate... or worse, depending on the implementation, single-split-stacks of meat...

[Roland]

15 minutes ago, theFlu said:

I appreciate the brainstorming; but "spawning zeds in" just isn't the same. Modifying the behaviour of the world feels a lot more natural and immersive, making the existing things more threatening based on your decisions.

 

What would happen to my game time with that.. well, I'd be carrying around meat just to maximize my spawn rate... or worse, depending on the implementation, single-split-stacks of meat...

 

For those who aren't looking to game the system in order to artificially increase the pace of their progression it is equally immersive. In scenario A there are zombies in state of dormancy standing around in the environs that are changed because they smell food and so they go into an aggro state and seek out the source of the food. The player sees zombies coming towards him from the surrounding area. In scenario B there are no zombies but the smell event is triggered so the game spawns zombies into the nearby environment and sends them towards the player.

 

From the player's perspective it is the same end result. Zombies from the nearby environs close in on him due to the smell of the food he is carrying. That is for a player who is unaware of the underlying mechanics and who is playing the game in a natural and organic fashion. Of course a player who has been following the development and understands the mechanics of what is happening and has the predilection to farm such mechanics for easy xp is going to see it all as artificial and non-immersive. Since they themselves are choosing to play the game in an artificial and non-immersive manner it serves them right.

 

The first guy is on his way to do a quest and farming xp isn't on his radar so as zombies start closing in on him from the surrounding area it feels like they were attracted to him because of what he is carrying. The second guy is standing still waiting for the xp delivery system to do its thing. The same is true of screamers. When I am focused on building or mining or crafting and I hear them show up it feels immersive because my focus was on natural game related activities. I didn't break "the fourth wall" of video gaming to take advantage of game mechanics that I know about but my character in the game couldn't know about. But when I stand in a defensive area with 25 campfires burning waiting for the screamers and all the xp bags to show up that is not immersive.

 

People can play how they want and complain about the results they get from their choices but it doesn't mean that mechanics like spawning in enemies for a random event doesn't feel natural and immersive to those who aren't gaming those mechanics for every ounce of xp they squeeze out of them all so they can get to level 300 weeks or months faster than a naturally playing player would reach it. People also talk about the game as a Mailman simulation as if spamming mailboxes for magazines is the only way the game can possibly be played. It's not. And I just disagree that spawning in zombies must result in gameplay that is non-immersive and superficial and contrived. It can definitely be stretched that way by determined players but it doesn't have to go that way.

[theFlu]

27 minutes ago, Roland said:

From the player's perspective it is the same end result.

It .. isn't. In one, the world has the same amount of zeds, on the other the food generates more. In one, you see the zeds behave "peacefully" when you don't carry food, and you see a difference when they smell you. In the other, you're swarmed by just another wandering horde.

 

My idea of carrying meat to optimize was tongue-in-cheek, since I know you dislike me playing the game as it is made. The point is: If you make a stupid system, you create stupid playstyles.

 

Now, could such a thing be made to be "good enough" not to be obvious? Yes, perhaps. In a game where zeds would have reasonable spawn positions (not in sealed ceilings ready to drop on you), corners you've checked would remain clear after you've checked them and breaking the wrong door wouldn't lead you backwards a path where every zed is obviously standing in ambush next to the door the devs expect you to walk in from. In such a game I could expect the devs to bother with implementing a system that would still feel immersive. Something like spawning in a few extra zeds with heightened senses.. or meat-seeking behaviour, as they'd "need" to be controllable by the meat they're spawned in to chase, to make it make sense.

 

In a post A16 7dtd, not a chance. Airdrop zombies, at best.

[Maharin]

35 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Airdrop zombies, at best.

 

That... would be awesome.  Looking up at the airdrop plane and seeing a line of zombies falling out of it as it streaks across the sky...

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

It .. isn't. In one, the world has the same amount of zeds, on the other the food generates more. In one, you see the zeds behave "peacefully" when you don't carry food, and you see a difference when they smell you. In the other, you're swarmed by just another wandering horde.

 

My idea of carrying meat to optimize was tongue-in-cheek, since I know you dislike me playing the game as it is made. The point is: If you make a stupid system, you create stupid playstyles.

 

Now, could such a thing be made to be "good enough" not to be obvious? Yes, perhaps. In a game where zeds would have reasonable spawn positions (not in sealed ceilings ready to drop on you), corners you've checked would remain clear after you've checked them and breaking the wrong door wouldn't lead you backwards a path where every zed is obviously standing in ambush next to the door the devs expect you to walk in from. In such a game I could expect the devs to bother with implementing a system that would still feel immersive. Something like spawning in a few extra zeds with heightened senses.. or meat-seeking behaviour, as they'd "need" to be controllable by the meat they're spawned in to chase, to make it make sense.

 

In a post A16 7dtd, not a chance. Airdrop zombies, at best.

I think as long as they spawn out of sight, it doesn't make a difference.  In either case, I'd disable it as I don't much like either mechanic.  But that's just my preference.

59 minutes ago, Maharin said:

 

That... would be awesome.  Looking up at the airdrop plane and seeing a line of zombies falling out of it as it streaks across the sky...

Entirely non-immersive.... I love it! 

[4sheetzngeegles]

Presently the zombie ai has more of a static reaction to the environment. Feral sense as it

is now is also a static on off switch, when logging in. Smell is simply a trigger with specific

parameters, the same as line of sight, light, or sound.

 

A possible compromise that would include both in a semi transparent manner would be to

        <Triggeredeffect>               <action>                         <Requirement>

treat the Feralsense as a zombie selfbuff.  If player is carrying open goods, or hasn't bathed

then feral sense is switched on, until the player meets the reduction requirements, using the

already in place cool down timer for heat or breadcrumbs, at a different rate of course.

 

It could possibly bypass some of the conflict, and can be regulated with more requirements.

 

I may have them out of order.

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

It .. isn't. In one, the world has the same amount of zeds, on the other the food generates more. In one, you see the zeds behave "peacefully" when you don't carry food, and you see a difference when they smell you. In the other, you're swarmed by just another wandering horde.

 

My idea of carrying meat to optimize was tongue-in-cheek, since I know you dislike me playing the game as it is made. The point is: If you make a stupid system, you create stupid playstyles.

 

Now, could such a thing be made to be "good enough" not to be obvious? Yes, perhaps. In a game where zeds would have reasonable spawn positions (not in sealed ceilings ready to drop on you), corners you've checked would remain clear after you've checked them and breaking the wrong door wouldn't lead you backwards a path where every zed is obviously standing in ambush next to the door the devs expect you to walk in from. In such a game I could expect the devs to bother with implementing a system that would still feel immersive. Something like spawning in a few extra zeds with heightened senses.. or meat-seeking behaviour, as they'd "need" to be controllable by the meat they're spawned in to chase, to make it make sense.

 

In a post A16 7dtd, not a chance. Airdrop zombies, at best.

 

I see your point. But like I said, it is mostly in the mind of the player and that player's intentions for how they approach the game. I don't dislike YOU playing the game focused on exploiting its underlying mechanics. I would just dislike ME playing that way. I think a lot of the criticisms of min maxers are a tempest in a teacup because while it is possible to exploit "stupid" mechanics in "stupid" ways, at the same time it's just a choice and not forced. 

 

As for plot holes and continuity problems like zombie falling out of sealed up spaces in the ceiling or showing up in places you already checked a moment before, I've always thought of those as B-Movie jump scare moments that you see in every slasher horror movie-- especially those that don't take themselves too seriously. This game definitely doesn't take itself too seriously and it is still fun to kill those zombies and occasionally still get jump scared. Lots of people obsess over how unrealistic it is and lots of other people pay it no mind and just roll with the B-movie vibe that it is. 

 

I often intentionally break through walls and go off the intended path in POIs. I often come upon zombies with their backs to me oriented in the direction the devs intended me to go. I enjoy those moments greatly. I just see them as dormant zombies and don't really stop and get annoyed that they were set up to attack me from some other direction. I love it when I chop through a wall into the back of a wardrobe where a zombie is standing facing the doors ready to pop out later. I love putting an arrow in the back of its head.

 

I feel bad that there are those who can't enjoy the game the way it is and who make game play choices for themselves that lead to their dissatisfaction and yet will always make those same choices since they are allowed by the mechanics of the game. I'm glad the devs haven't restricted those mechanics so that everyone can still choose to play the way they want. There are those who min/max and play the underlying mechanics meta and love it. There are those who min/max and play the underlying mechanics meta and hate it but do it anyway and complain. And then there are a bunch of us who either don't know the underlying mechanics or ignore them and just play the game inefficiently and sloppily and are still progressing our skills and recipes on day 70 and like killing the zombies that come from wherever they do.

 

But...we don't get to come on the forums and flex that we played out the whole game by Day 20 so yeah....

[theFlu]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

playing the game focused on exploiting its underlying mechanics.

Focused on exploiting, obsessing, these are the phrases that lose me (and I guess most everyone else you're applying them to).

The mechanics are what they are, and where I think they could be improved, I make some noise. Not because I can't enjoy the game, but because I'd like it to BE better. If I didn't enjoy the game, I wouldn't bother.

 

Some of the mechanics are "mostly fine", and even the B-movie moments are great at times. Games4kickz just had a funny moment where a stripper fell thru a ceiling in a horror attic, nailed a landing on the ritual table at the end of the room and stood there, menacingly, staring at the player for a few seconds before charging in. Proper b-movie moment. Sadly she was accompanied by a couple worker zeds, who decided on "DestroyArea" upon landing, and carried on to eat the walls, making the sum of the moment .. well, a lil less. (that spot is also one of the better zed droppers, it looks like you could get there "normally", it could easily exist in such a place, etc.. biggest flaw is it's still "breaking upon entering" under the activating zeds)

 

That DestroyArea there is a bit of a weird design. Lets obsess over that for a bit. Why? Well, they didn't want zeds to be infinitely loopable by simple droppers. So they added a mechanic where if they fall, they'll rage at the nearest blocks for a while. Technically works. If they made it conditional by some means, people could exploit That, so it's just random. But for some reason it is also applied to zeds that fall from their pre-designed traps within POIs. This neuters the traps, as you'll get about 10 extra secs for free. Props for keeping it continuous, I guess, but it defeats the purpose of the traps.

 

Can I play with it like that? Yeah. Would I like it to be disabled for the dropping zeds, to improve the droppers.. yeh. Even if I dislike the droppers in general, that'd make them at least better towards their function as a difficulty element, and thus also add to their horror effect; you won't be scared of a clown car for long.. 😛 

[theFlu]

9 hours ago, Maharin said:

Looking up at the airdrop plane and seeing a line of zombies falling out of it as it streaks across the sky...

That might be neat indeed, maybe a little tough to explain in the lore as a duke-tactic, but at least they'd have an origin

[4sheetzngeegles]

My prediction, which aligns with Newton's, for that scenario is
a lot of pock marks, craters, destroyed cars, red skid marks, and goo.
The only real danger would be having one of them fall on you.
Terrafirma and just plain old newton, will handle the rest.

 

Water might as well be concrete at that rate of speed. Ask anyone whose
bungee cord snapped, OOPs, You can't. I'll let mythbusters disprove that
one. Anything that still has motility after that should be noting more than

a crippled, cracked, crunched, crawler.

[theFlu]

56 minutes ago, 4sheetzngeegles said:

My prediction, which aligns with Newton's, for that scenario is
a lot of pock marks, craters, destroyed cars, red skid marks, and goo.

My experiment with a decent correlate to the scenario would indicate that - even without any parachuting equipment - the zeds would at best lose a little less than third of their HP. It'll be fine

[Vaeliorin]

10 hours ago, theFlu said:

That DestroyArea there is a bit of a weird design. Lets obsess over that for a bit. Why? Well, they didn't want zeds to be infinitely loopable by simple droppers. So they added a mechanic where if they fall, they'll rage at the nearest blocks for a while. Technically works. If they made it conditional by some means, people could exploit That, so it's just random. But for some reason it is also applied to zeds that fall from their pre-designed traps within POIs. This neuters the traps, as you'll get about 10 extra secs for free. Props for keeping it continuous, I guess, but it defeats the purpose of the traps.

 

Can I play with it like that? Yeah. Would I like it to be disabled for the dropping zeds, to improve the droppers.. yeh. Even if I dislike the droppers in general, that'd make them at least better towards their function as a difficulty element, and thus also add to their horror effect; you won't be scared of a clown car for long.. 😛 

The funny thing about this is that it doesn't actually stop simple droppers, you just have to build them a little taller and the zombies never go into DestroyArea.  While I personally don't build infinite loop bases, I sometimes build bases where the zombies will fall if ragdolled, so it's nice to be able to keep them from randomly attacking bits of my base, mostly to save on the annoyance of repairs.