Thoughts On Crafting Magazines?

[SoBasically]

Hey there fellow survivors! I was recently thinking about the discourse that erupted in this community when crafting skill magazines were first introduced to the game. Personally, I've always thought it was a great idea and super healthy for the game.

If you were someone who hated the magazines on release, how do you feel about it now? Do you still dislike the mechanic or have you come to like it?

[Krougal]

Hated it. Still hate it. I'm actually playing A19 right now for...reasons. I will probably be done soon and go back to 1.0.

I've had a little time in 1.0, there were improvements overall, but I don't miss the skill magazines or the dew collectors or the new armor.

Now granted I have gotten the schematics I need as I need them, but looking for them while it was always important, it was never near the game defining activity that it is with the magazines. I also haven't done any trader quests at all yet at day 7. Just having fun doing my own thing, like the old days.

 

Even fairly late game, in A21, flying around in gyrocopter, spot group of mailboxes, drop everything, crash, loot mailboxes. It's not a good time.

 

I was also starting to feel very constrained in doing what I wanted to do in 1.0, I am past 2nd horde and I feel my leveling has outpaced what I can craft. Like I'd like to be starting on electric fences and concrete, but I haven't found the right magazines. Still riding a bicycle, granted I've been lagging a bit on quests I guess. I can't deny that there are plenty of QOL improvements and other things that have made the game better every version, and yet every version my overall enjoyment and time spent playing goes down.

 

I picked this game up in very early alpha, I forget which, earlier than my registration date since I had a pirated version for a bit, but I was hooked on the game right away and I didn't wait too long to buy it.

[SoBasically]

@Krougal

Super interesting positions here. I too, have played since the early alphas.

I can agree that the pacing of leveling and skill crafting is certainly not moving at the same pace, but that's the only complaint I have so far. I'm about to hit horde 6 in my 1.0 world, and I think the progression is fantastic. Horde night is challenging, but not impossible (until a wolf shows up lol). I found that horde night, and combat in general, was way too easy (even in higher difficulties). The weapons and armor I have is on par with the amount of difficult enemies that spawn.

I think the biggest defense I have for the magazines is the fact that it totally reworks how you spend your skill points. Previously, you HAD to invest in Strength for Master Chef and Intelligence for Grease Monkey and Physician. Now, anyone has the oppurtunity to craft all items, and those perks enhance the crafting rather than unlock it.

In my current world, I'm doing an Agility/Perception build. I have never had to worry about investing in Strength to cook food because I can read those magazines. I am able to put skill points into what I WANT rather than what I NEED.

[Krougal]

9 minutes ago, SoBasically said:

@Krougal

Super interesting positions here. I too, have played since the early alphas.

I can agree that the pacing of leveling and skill crafting is certainly not moving at the same pace, but that's the only complaint I have so far. I'm about to hit horde 6 in my 1.0 world, and I think the progression is fantastic. Horde night is challenging, but not impossible (until a wolf shows up lol). I found that horde night, and combat in general, was way too easy (even in higher difficulties). The weapons and armor I have is on par with the amount of difficult enemies that spawn.

I think the biggest defense I have for the magazines is the fact that it totally reworks how you spend your skill points. Previously, you HAD to invest in Strength for Master Chef and Intelligence for Grease Monkey and Physician. Now, anyone has the oppurtunity to craft all items, and those perks enhance the crafting rather than unlock it.

In my current world, I'm doing an Agility/Perception build. I have never had to worry about investing in Strength to cook food because I can read those magazines. I am able to put skill points into what I WANT rather than what I NEED.

Well kinda, as I was just replying to Meganoth in another thread, it still comes down to having to game the system to get what you want.

Agility/Perception is actually my generally preferred playstyle, but last few versions I have been going more INT or STR/INT builds because they just seem more practical for the way the game is balanced right now.

 

I think we've only been freed from master chef because the cooking magazines aren't tied to the perk like others; they have a chance to spawn in cabinets and the like regardless. I'm sure you noticed any kitchen you loot is bound to have a few.

 

Currently even with an early point into lockpick and physician, I feel like I am behind on all the int mags. Now maybe they fixed the way lockpick was broken in A21 (It gave all int mags IIRC; I still like lockpick for it's own sake).

 

Granted my club, shotgun and tools have all risen steadily. That is where I've spent my perks. Maybe I am complaining about nothing, since if I wasn't getting a lot of those mags that I perked into, I would be complaining about that for sure.

 

It all boils down to in SP you have to do everything yourself and I feel like being forced to a near class system is too limiting, especially when stats are so expensive, we are discouraged from mixing and matching skills freely to any large degree(at least until high level when it no longer matters). Specialization is great in a MP game, where each person can focus on a role, it encourages and rewards teamwork.

[meganoth]

19 minutes ago, SoBasically said:

@Krougal

Super interesting positions here. I too, have played since the early alphas.

I can agree that the pacing of leveling and skill crafting is certainly not moving at the same pace, but that's the only complaint I have so far. I'm about to hit horde 6 in my 1.0 world, and I think the progression is fantastic. Horde night is challenging, but not impossible (until a wolf shows up lol). I found that horde night, and combat in general, was way too easy (even in higher difficulties). The weapons and armor I have is on par with the amount of difficult enemies that spawn.

I think the biggest defense I have for the magazines is the fact that it totally reworks how you spend your skill points. Previously, you HAD to invest in Strength for Master Chef and Intelligence for Grease Monkey and Physician. Now, anyone has the oppurtunity to craft all items, and those perks enhance the crafting rather than unlock it.

In my current world, I'm doing an Agility/Perception build. I have never had to worry about investing in Strength to cook food because I can read those magazines. I am able to put skill points into what I WANT rather than what I NEED.

 

Agreed. Though I would say that strength was never a must have for me. In previous alphas I often put one point into master chef to get a few basic recipes, but then just waited for the recipes to turn up in loot.

 

I like magazines but currently I am not satisfied with their balance. But nothing that a few more rounds of balance patches couldn't fix

 

[Fenris]

I'm ok with them for the most part. Although I almost feel like I'm forced to put points into skills to give me the Forge Ahead magazines if I want to build anything sometime this century, and don;t want to simply buy the work stations. I've played games in the past that have a character class system, and sure enough, I'd eventually loot a best in slot item .... only for it to be exclusive use for another class. At least with the magazine system I have a greater chance of getting something I need and want and not the stupid Q6 Steel Spear for the 12,842nd time.

[Outlaw_187]

I'm not a fan. I like the balance before with finding the books to unlock certain perks but I guess not so much the skill points investing system. 

It does feel more balanced now but just wish there was another way than by finding magazines. 

 

I'll still always be a "learn by doing" fan but I understand how it was exploited. Be nice to have a mix of that with the magazine system. 

[theFlu]

Still dislike it. My main gripe is highly personal, it neutered my dwarven mines -playthroughs; the point was to basically start digging as early as possible and build something large underground. Without any loot-based progress that is rather .. unpleasant now. You'll have to loot for a few weeks to make it tolerable, and even then you'll just need to loot more to max out eventually; whatever time you use building is away from character progress.

 

Secondarily, about as annoying for me, it puts the game on pretty strict rails. You'll get the same things in the same order every time, and you can basically predict when. "Need this amount of books for X, that means this many mailboxes." Not to mention looting for mailboxes for such a grind is probably the most dull way to spend your time, there's not even a "jackpot" anywhere, just incremental steps on a looong track. And very little challenge to it, as none of the main sources are well guarded.

 

While none of the old ways for progress were perfect, I'd rather have any of them.. hunting for The Original Forge Ahead book on day 45 was .. frustrating, but at least it was way different from other playthroughs

 

2 hours ago, Outlaw_187 said:

Be nice to have a mix of that with the magazine system.

This might be a decent combo, just have an LBD system building you the same points as magazines give. Could be slower than the current; maybe cross-blocking somehow - you need manual labour to get past some points and magazines to get past others.. or magazines unlocking 10 points worth of "potential training" or some such. Or just straight up slow progress in the same track.

[Adam the Waster]

I think there should be another method like skill points but im OK with it. It makes things slow which I like

 

Hell if anything they should add more tiers like scrap tools. 

 

The only issue I see is armor... unlocking armor all under one book is a bit much. 

[Krougal]

3 hours ago, Outlaw_187 said:

I'm not a fan. I like the balance before with finding the books to unlock certain perks but I guess not so much the skill points investing system. 

It does feel more balanced now but just wish there was another way than by finding magazines. 

 

I'll still always be a "learn by doing" fan but I understand how it was exploited. Be nice to have a mix of that with the magazine system. 

So I was never a fan of the LBD, at least not the way 7D implemented it.

I gotta admit though, lately I been thinking at least for the combat skills it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

The problem is I don't know if it would really be viable to mix and match.

It might just make it too complicated, especially for new players.

 

  

25 minutes ago, Adam the Waster said:

I think there should be another method like skill points but im OK with it. It makes things slow which I like

 

Hell if anything they should add more tiers like scrap tools. 

 

The only issue I see is armor... unlocking armor all under one book is a bit much. 

Bite your tongue!

The last thing I want to do is collect armor recipes piece by piece to play dress up.

I'm already overwhelmed with all the new armor. I really despise sitting around comparing attributes and the merits of this piece over that.

As it is right now I'm wearing 4 pieces from 4 sets and that is taking someone else's word for it. But then I have to break out farmers boots for harvesting.

I liked it when it was simple. Steel plate for horde night and military for the rest of the time.

Edited July 31 by Krougal (see edit history)

[Riamus]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

It all boils down to in SP you have to do everything yourself and I feel like being forced to a near class system is too limiting, especially when stats are so expensive, we are discouraged from mixing and matching skills freely to any large degree(at least until high level when it no longer matters). Specialization is great in a MP game, where each person can focus on a role, it encourages and rewards teamwork.

Even in SP, I don't find the magazines to be a problem and I am a jack of all trades, spreading points around.  It doesn't really hurt my magazines.  Sure, I don't get them as quickly as someone who sticks to only one or two magazine perks, but unless you absolutely have to unlock everything as quickly as possible, that isn't really a problem.  Forge ahead can be found easily when you keep an eye out for workstations even when not perked for the magazines and others just aren't all that critical.

[Adam the Waster]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

So I was never a fan of the LBD, at least not the way 7D implemented it.

I gotta admit though, lately I been thinking at least for the combat skills it wouldn't be such a bad thing.

The problem is I don't know if it would really be viable to mix and match.

It might just make it too complicated, especially for new players.

 

  

Bite your tongue!

The last thing I want to do is collect armor recipes piece by piece to play dress up.

I'm already overwhelmed with all the new armor. I really despise sitting around comparing attributes and the merits of this piece over that.

As it is right now I'm wearing 4 pieces from 4 sets and that is taking someone else's word for it. But then I have to break out farmers boots for harvesting.

I liked it when it was simple. Steel plate for horde night and military for the rest of the time.

If anything I think armor needs even more resources to craft it. 

 

But then again we need more too

[myrkana]

I dont mind it. Day 21 horde night with 2 players total. I have had most of the books funneled to me as the base @%$#. 80/100 harvesting tools, max salvage tools, max armor, 74/100 robotics, 91/100 food, 83/100 vehicles, 58/75 traps. Books really arent hard to get and encourage actual looting. We explored town to find the right buildings, crack a books are gold. We needed vehicle books so we looked for pass n gas'.

[zztong]

10 hours ago, SoBasically said:

Personally, I've always thought it was a great idea and super healthy for the game.

If you were someone who hated the magazines on release, how do you feel about it now?

 

I wasn't one who hated the new magazines as they let bookshelf loot be more than paper. It was something more than just Perk books and Crafting books as meaningful loot.

 

That said, there are times when I am marking time waiting to get another X number of a magazine before I can make some sort of improvement. Sometimes that is... I'm not sure what word to pick ... 'demotivating?' ... and sometimes it isn't. I have to put something I'd like to be a priority on hold while I live life (raid POIs) enough to find 20 more books of some type. I can't say, for instance, since I want a motorcycle, I will prioritize learning about motorcycles as I don't really control what magazines drop. Sure, I can influence what magazines drop by my selection of Perks, but as a "Jack of All Trades" player, I'm usually advancing on several fronts: Food, Seeds, Armor, Bows, Clubs, and Vehicles and still wanting to address Pistols, Assault Weapons, Shotguns, and Rifles. But sometimes I just have to tell myself to work on something else and check back later. That isn't always what I want to hear.

Edited July 31 by zztong (see edit history)

[Krougal]

So I gotta say after a few days, features I hate or not (although a lot of them were already in by 19.6, the game had already shifted to the very gamey RPG it is) 1.0 is far superior overall and I can't wait to finish my testing and roll back up to it.

 

The recipes were nice in 19.6 because they gave you more options. For everything but mods, you can perk into something that grants them or you can hope to find them. Checking mailboxes and bookcases was just something you do like every other looting activity and not your main focus.

 

I do feel a lot freer to play how I want without them (the magazines) in this version, even though I am stuck with mostly QL2 weapons and tools at this point because crafting QL is tied to perks and I had not done any questing the first week so I am behind on any kind of good rewards, but I was able to focus on making a plan and executing it instead of everything being at the whim of RNG.

[stample]

On 2nd playthrough, and still not a fan.  The balance feels off, and that's probably because of the number of books required for certain perks.

 

1st MP playthrough, I was the dedicated "Vehicles" guy, and our actual Int person was the dedicated "Workstations" guy.  Keep in mind Int person doesn't quest much.  He mines, builds, and maintains the base and he stays on-level with us just from the mining/upgrading xp.  He pointed into the forge perks, then rode around on his bicycle at about level 10, looting all the mailboxes.  That got us forges and workbenches pretty quick. Mixer by end of the first week.  Chem station was a bit longer coming because he was short on mailboxes by then.

 

Vehicles were a long time coming, because the two of us doing questing and looting wouldn't find many.  We finally got motorcycles around day 30 or 40.  We found all the parts to the 4x4 before I ever found enough books.  We finally got gyrocopters somewhere after day 100, and were over level 100.

In the meantime, we all got the weapons and armors to Q6 by around level/day 40s.  We were just getting out of minibikes and into motorcycles wearing full Q6 sets of armor.

 

2nd playthrough.  Our Int player has been out of town, and 3rd person didn't play.  We have a new 3rd who wasn't able to play much.  I'm basically playing solo most of the time.  We agreed no one was going to spec into any magazine to see how it goes.  I am level 40.  I did Day 35 horde last night.  I made my first minibike, and first workbench.  My shotgun is Q5 double-barrel.  Haven't gotten to pump yet.  I'm using a Q2 iron sledge (I have Q3 available now) and a Q1 toilet pistol as my sidearm.  I'm really feeling the lack of a dedicated Int person.  I'm now using gas and I'm "capable" of making gas, but I'm about 40 books away from the chem station to do it.  We can't craft gas at fires anymore.  My base is fully cobblestone, but I can't make a cement mixer to progress.  I've put almost 100% of my points into Str line.  Str 9, Miner/Mother at 5, Sledge and Shotgun at 4.  I can make Q1 steel pickaxe, but I've yet to find a single steel tool part, so I really can't.  I can't craft steel, either. 

 

My armor is a hodgepodge of found light/med even though I want to play a Heavy armor person.  I'm getting destroyed in melee by ferals because my armor is behind my gamestage.  My weapons feel behind gamestage, but I recognize that's actually because things have so many more HP now.

 

The only way for me to advance is to go out and quest (just to reset POIs) and loot and end up killing things to find these books I need.  If I do that, I'll continue to level beyond my gear.

 

Game beginning feels the same.  Endgame feels easier because some of the armor is really overpowered.  Mid-game feels much more punishing if you don't have someone with Int finding the books you need for everything to advance.

 

It really feels like too much necessary stuff is locked behind Int.  Everyone wants a vehicle.  I don't know anyone who's said "Yeah, I'll run or use a bicycle because I don't think vehicles are necessary".  I've known wanderer-types who don't build or use workstations much, but having a horde base is pretty vital to anyone who doesn't want to just hide on a large cement-or-better POI every horde night.  You can fight the horde in the open end-game, but not until you can craft the gear to do it.  I look at all the other perk lines and I don't see anything outside of Int that I feel I 'need' to do well.  I don't have to take lucky looter, but I usually do eventually.  I don't need to take miner69er or motherlode, but it certainly makes building bases faster.  I don't need stealth or parkour if I'm not playing an Agi build.  I think a lot of people take 1 Living off the Land because it doubles your crop yield, and that sure is nice.  But I don't need to buy any stamina to do it.  A point in tracking early is nice but again, not necessary to get the food you need.  But vehicles and workstations are both locked behind an extremely long magazine set.

 

I feel like the "way to play" is now to go Int for the first 20 levels, raid every mailbox in the land, then take a Fergettin' Elixer and finally start playing the way you want to.  I don't want to play Int build.  I did that IRL.

 

Maybe cut vehicles spread by 25 or 30%?  Gyrocopter and 70 or 75, motorcycles 10 points sooner?

 

And cut Forge Ahead by 20 points or so.  Somewhere around 50-60.  Or just put them back as recipes that can be bought or also available as a Challenge reward.

 

Has anyone added up how many skill magazines it takes for each attribute to max out related skills?  I feel like Int has more than the rest.  I should check that.

[stample]

Yeah, skewed to Int in terms of total magazines, with Strength just a bit behind.  Armor applies to all, but included it for completeness.

 

Perception
"craftingArmor" max_level="100"
"craftingSalvageTools" max_level="75"
"craftingSpears" max_level="75"
"craftingRifles" max_level="100"
"craftingExplosives" max_level="100"
Total 450

 

Strength
"craftingArmor" max_level="100"
"craftingHarvestingTools" max_level="100"
"craftingClubs" max_level="75"
"craftingSledgehammers" max_level="75"
"craftingShotguns" max_level="100"
"craftingFood" max_level="100"
Total 550

 

Fortitude
"craftingArmor" max_level="100"
"craftingKnuckles" max_level="75"
"craftingMachineGuns" max_level="100"
"craftingSeeds" max_level="20"
Total 295

 

Agility
"craftingArmor" max_level="100"
"craftingBlades" max_level="75"
"craftingBows" max_level="75"
"craftingHandguns" max_level="100"
Total 350

 

Intelligence
"craftingArmor" max_level="100"
"craftingRobotics" max_level="100"
"craftingMedical" max_level="75"
"craftingElectrician" max_level="100"
"craftingTraps" max_level="75"
"craftingWorkstations" max_level="75"
"craftingVehicles" max_level="100"
"craftingRepairTools" max_level="50"
Total 600

 

I never noticed this before now, but Agi only has skills related to Agi weapons.  Zero utility in terms of crafting or other survival-ness.

 

Edited August 1 by stample
Had Cooking in wrong stat (see edit history)

[Kosmic Kerman]

1 point in advanced engineering increases the probability of book drops for four skills: electrician, traps, workstation, and repair tools. 1 point in locking picking increases the drop of forge ahead books up to level 15ish.

 

As to vehicles, I agree that the progression is too slow and that max books should probably be dropped from 100 to 75. I have ended up restarting before I've reached gyrocopters in each of my playthroughs. I've also had no luck with loot drops or trader inventory in this regard. This is probably my least favorite part of 1.0.  I didn't play too much of A21 but in prior alphas I was always able to obtain all of the vehicles through a combination of looting and buying from traders before I got bored with that particular save.

Edited August 1 by Kosmic Kerman (see edit history)

[Gideon]

Thoughts:

It is a method to control player progression. Likely in order to keep players from progressing beyond a certain speed, drawing out the play time. I think it's a rather brute force method to accomplish this, but it seems to do achieve what is desired by the devs.

[Kattla]

Thoughts on all those magazines..

 

It's going by the book.😇

 

Does not mean i like them though.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

As to vehicles, I agree that the progression is too slow and that max books should probably be dropped from 100 to 75. I have ended up restarting before I've reached gyrocopters in each of my playthroughs. I've also had no luck with loot drops or trader inventory in this regard. This is probably my least favorite part of 1.0.  I didn't play too much of A21 but in prior alphas I was always to obtain all of the vehicles through a combination of looting and buying from traders before I got bored with that particular save.

 

There has definitely been a longer period of time between unlocking bicycle - unlocking minibike - unlocking motorcycles.

 

I haven't updated my A21 mod yet, but I made a slight change to Pass n Gas crates.  The first loot group was the crafting magazines, but it was always the vehicle crafting one.  I had a second group that had a chance to add 1 or 2 additional magazines (but it had a list to pull from).  It did change how quickly to advance in vehicle crafting for non-intelligence builds.

 

Another thing I did that affected magazine drops was that I removed perk book / schematic unlocks and rolled those into the crafting magazines.  So all the mods you can add to vehicles, weapons, tools were incorporated into the various crafting trees.  It made unlocking those items more linear like the items already in the crafting trees, but you were always making progress to unlock items rather than finding 5 copies of the tempered blade mod schematic.

 

But these changes worked for me since I am more of a relaxed player who doesn't have to advanced as quickly as possible, but prefer to craft the items in game rather than finding them in loot or buying from the trader.  I don't mind buying one part of the vehicle build, but I don't want to depend on finding both main components in the trader inventory because I can't craft the vehicle late in the game.

[Soulbreeze]

I feel the increase chance of finding books tied to certain perks isn't high enough. I only play multiplayer so shooting for specific POIs is often not an option unless you get a mission for it to reset it. We wiped twice, I think, during experimental and then again with 1.0 'released'. I almost always loot better weapons than I can make despite pouring 3-4 points into my main stat's weapons fairly early. I have looted better knives than I've been able to craft this whole playthrough. Pistols however, I've mostly crafted. Armor is maxed despite no points in it. I'm not a big fan of the magazine system, nor am I completely against it. It just doesn't feel like it works the way it should.

 

I think we need some form of RNG protection like some of the overhaul mods have where we can scrap a number of magazines we don't need in order to craft one that we do.

[Hostyle]

On 7/31/2024 at 8:44 AM, SoBasically said:

Hey there fellow survivors! I was recently thinking about the discourse that erupted in this community when crafting skill magazines were first introduced to the game. Personally, I've always thought it was a great idea and super healthy for the game.

If you were someone who hated the magazines on release, how do you feel about it now? Do you still dislike the mechanic or have you come to like it?

I absolutely hate having my crafting tiers tied to book stores and magazines. I play on multiplayer online only so this can be a significant challenge or next to impossible depending on how the loot is set up on the server. I'd rather have my crafting skill and tier controlled by my input into the skill rather than random gen loot.

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, Soulbreeze said:

I feel the increase chance of finding books tied to certain perks isn't high enough. I only play multiplayer so shooting for specific POIs is often not an option unless you get a mission for it to reset it. We wiped twice, I think, during experimental and then again with 1.0 'released'. I almost always loot better weapons than I can make despite pouring 3-4 points into my main stat's weapons fairly early. I have looted better knives than I've been able to craft this whole playthrough. Pistols however, I've mostly crafted. Armor is maxed despite no points in it. I'm not a big fan of the magazine system, nor am I completely against it. It just doesn't feel like it works the way it should.

 

I think we need some form of RNG protection like some of the overhaul mods have where we can scrap a number of magazines we don't need in order to craft one that we do.

 

Strange. My crafting progression in my cp-op and in my single player game was always ahead of anything I did find (except for the toilet pistol). I often didn't have the materials to actually craft the weapon, but I could have.

 

You can get a lot of magazines from the magazine bundle rewards from quests, even on a MP server with everything already looted, but probably you know that.

 

[Krougal]

So I started fresh in 1.0. Still trying to get a map I like. I haven't played Nav in ages, maybe I should try that next.

Anywho...

Having put more into int earlier instead of maxing strength first, has put me more into line with my expectations.

In as much as unlocks. I got workbench in week 1. I am a little behind, especially on metal tools and weapons, and even getting to baconneggs took all week, but I blame that on the crappy map since I would have collected more books by now otherwise. I decided to give 4k a whirl for less traveling and what do I get? Towns are like 1km away from Rekt and when you don't have a bicycle that is far.

 

I'm going to start yet again, because this map sucks.

 

This is my current build:

Spoiler

1	Pummel Pete	1
1	Miner 69'er	1
1	Advanced Engineering	1
1	Salvage Operations	1
2	Lockpicking	1
3	Strength	2
4	Strength	3
5	Pummel Pete	2
6	Strength	4
7	Strength	5
8	Pummel Pete	3
9	Intellect	2
10	Intellect	3
11	Physician	1
12	Intellect	4
13	Advanced Engineering	2
14	Grease Monkey	1
15	Grease Monkey	2
16	Intellect	5
17	Save
18	Intellect	6
19	Advanced Engineering	3
20	Perception	2
21	Salvage Operations	2
22	Mother Lode	1
23	Parkour	1
24	Living off the land	1