Dew collector nerf in New update?

[YourMirror]

2 minutes ago, Lasher said:

 

Calling it exaclty as I see it.

And where exaclty did I say that I was speaking for "the community"?

Once again YourMirror - learn to read before responding - I'm saying that everybody should be aloowed to have their opinion - whether they agree with TFP or not.

 

And you talking about the way I post?

The only person who mentioned the word "aholes" is you - which is pretty typical of your posting response to anyone who disagrees with you.

Rich. Pot - Kettle much?

Too easy.

 

"You'll come up against pretty much the same stock responses over and over and seeing as this often comes from folk in a position of power there's very little you can do about it."

 

" I personally am also sick to death of members of this forum - usually freinds of the developers simply defending every single action they take with excuses."

 

"I'm saying that everybody should be aloowed to have their opinion - whether they agree with TFP or not."

 

So everyone? Fail. BIG fail.

 

And there you go again. Highlighting one word you obviously didnt say but neglecting the whole point wrapped around it. So you didnt call the devs incompentent, lazy and moneygrabbers who dont care about opinions of anyone who paid already for the game? Yes you did. And best of all, you really think that is gonna get you anywhere with any kind of critisism. Like i said. A 4 year old. Putting fingers in ears and go neh neh nehneh neh.

 

So advise back learn to read yourself. Especially your own posts. They will get thrown in your face someday. Today is that day.

 

 

[Lasher]

9 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Your problem is that you aren't posting from a position of questioning whether there is a mess or not. You are posting from the foregone conclusion that there is a mess that needs fixing. Because you do that, others who don't think there is a mess or at least still question whether there is a mess or not respond and debate your points. You then take that as people denying the mess and somehow think that TFP is enslaved to those people.

 

This process of debating is actually what helps determine whether the changes are a mess or not. Just because people disagree with your assertion that it actually is a mess doesn't mean that there is not value in raising your valid points on the forum. You can respond to challenges to your position just as easily as people responded to your original point. It's hypocritical of you to say that you can't post your valid concerns when you are essentially calling for people responding with their valid concerns to be silenced. Patience and being willing to phrase your concerns in compelling ways and then rephrase them if necessary in response to a counterpoint is how good arguments emerge on both sides of any issue.

 

Ultimately, everyone who has a particular set of preferences that are not represented by the vanilla version of the game is going to have to use mods in order to gain that set of preferences. But that isn't because anyone argued against your point on the forum. It's because the developers made a final decision after testing and feedback and oftentimes lots of debate.

 

Thanks Roland - for yourr measured response - I do actually appreciate it.

 

On the subject of "mess" I think you may well be right to a certain exctent - I do most certainly perceive a mess.

Again, much as I know how a lot of folk hate this being brought up, but this game is still unfinished and in EA after 10 years - and after having conversations with several folk who work in the industry the opinon I have from them is that for a game of this scope that's certaily a sign that there's a problem.

What the problem is, I don't know, but I do know that this game has such a huge amount of potential that to see it almost wasted is quite upsetting.

 

You've mentioned testing, feedback and debate but I honeslty just don't really see evidence of very much of that going on at all - there seems to be an awful lot of "throw it at the wall and see what sticks" - now whether that's true or not I don't know but it chaotic.

 

So yes, I do certainly see a mess, and I think it looks that way to others as well in different areas depending on your experience and playstyle.

 

It would be nice if we could somehow have options to fix it - but I'm just gradually thinking that TFP don't care that much.

 

8 minutes ago, YourMirror said:

Too easy.

 

"You'll come up against pretty much the same stock responses over and over and seeing as this often comes from folk in a position of power there's very little you can do about it."

 

" I personally am also sick to death of members of this forum - usually freinds of the developers simply defending every single action they take with excuses."

 

"I'm saying that everybody should be aloowed to have their opinion - whether they agree with TFP or not."

 

So everyone? Fail. BIG fail.

 

And there you go again. Highlighting one word you obviously didnt say but neglecting the whole point wrapped around it. So you didnt call the devs incompentent, lazy and moneygrabbers who dont care about opinions of anyone who paid already for the game? Yes you did. And best of all, you really think that is gonna get you anywhere with any kind of critisism. Like i said. A 4 year old. Putting fingers in ears and go neh neh nehneh neh.

 

So advise back learn to read yourself. Especially your own posts. They will get thrown in your face someday. Today is that day.

 

 

 

Standing by everything I said.

There are some serious problems at TFP - and if you don't like it just keep taking your copium.

Let's have a look at some of your posts shalll we... Oh no - looks like it was so toxic it got moderated.

Tell you what YourMirror - I'm going to stick you on ignore and I'd VERY much appreciate it if you'd return the favour.

Besides- I don't like punching down.

[warmer]

On 6/29/2023 at 11:20 AM, Slingblade2040 said:

 

How exactly is that cheesing mechanics? Feel free to explain. 

if you have enough dew collectors you essentially have unlimited money because you can sell fresh water. Unless I am mistaken. Thats a good 1000 dukes a day for 5 water collectors. the same reason they nerfed corn. Once you have enough to create more wealth resources per day that it cost to create another, the economy completely breaks.

Edited June 30, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[Roland]

16 minutes ago, Lasher said:

There are some serious problems at TFP

 

I don't know about that. I get that it is your perception and you've admitted as much-- that you realize it is just your perception as well as others you've spoken with and observed. I am in the enviable position of being able to read all of their internal discord chats so I know for a fact that most of the doom-and-gloom speculation is way off. I can't prove it, of course, and someone like you who seems to be invested in choosing all the most nefarious and negative reasonings for motives that you can't really know but are simply assuming isn't going to trust me either.

 

TFP continues to enjoy greater and greater success as a result of what they are doing. I'm not sure by what evidence you measure serious problems but the 10+ years in alpha doesn't seem to be harming them in the more general population. If you look at Steamcharts the popularity of the game took off with Alpha 18 beyond what it ever was before and has maintained at that new higher level. We've peaked so far today in the 60k range on a Friday morning and are confident we will break records again this weekend. The feedback for the game in its post A18 state including A21 is predominately positive. That doesn't mean those who post negative views are discounted. But it doesn't really speak to "serious problems". If a 10+ year-old alpha development phase was seriously problematic then I'd expect the steam charts to show declining interest. 

 

Your concerns as well as others who agree with you are known by TFP. I would not be surprised if there wasn't a shift towards alleviating some of those concerns because it always seems to happen every update when there is strong dislike for a feature. TFP adjusts it ultimately somewhere in between what the negative feedback demands and what the positive feedback gushes over. Whenever you that has happened we then see posts of people who loved the change disappointed that TFP caved in. 

 

At any rate. I don't think anyone has anything to worry with regards to TFP being in trouble. They are in an extremely good position for finishing up this game and then launching into their next one in a timely fashion and much further ahead in terms of development for their next game than they were when they started 7 Days to Die. They will be starting the next game with their own original assets and art, a firm grip on the ins and outs of the Unreal engine, and plenty of systems and features they've already spent time experimenting. I say all of this to draw a distinction between the long process of their first game in which they have experimented and developed systems--some of which they threw out for this game but could be considered for their next game. This long process will pay off in being able to push out games much more quickly in the future. So their future is still bright.

 

But none of that is provable. You have to take my word for it with a hopeful attitude. It will eventually be provable, though, when history shows that 7 Days to Die actually completed and TFP followed up with more hit games that were released in a much faster timetable. Or history might show that TFP crumbles and implodes and nobody buys anything they ever put out again. It's possible but not probable. From what I've seen of the preliminary work their next game will be a big hit. But we'll see. I hope for their success. Do you hope for their failure?

[Roland]

18 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Game keeps becoming more looter shooter every update because who cares about those kick starter promises since they got the money now.

 

Could you outline exactly how the game becoming more looter shooter violates the kickstarter promises? Was there a promise to hold the line against looter-shooterness?

 

Looting and shooting zombies have been a huge part of this game since the kickstarter was released. This game has many elements and there has never been any guarantee that one or two elements might or might not end up being more dominant than others. The game still has crafting, building, mining, farming, cooking, medicating, eating, drinking, driving, and more. Looting and shooting are still among many of the elements that make up this game. 

 

Go to the pinned thread in the Pimp Dreams part of this forum and click on the list of kickstarter promises and specify how an emphasis on the looting and the shooting breaks promises.

 

Nevermind-- here's a link for your convenience: 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

It's because the developers made a final decision after testing and feedback and oftentimes lots of debate.

The frustrating aspect is that we are not part of the debate. All debates in this forum take place after the fun pimps have made their decision. And we have no knowledge of what arguments were made in that debate.

 

And the thing with the feedback is not so simple. Player A has bad luck and progresses only very slowly, player B, on the other hand, reports that everything moves much too fast. Whose feedback carries more weight?

 

[Roland]

12 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

The frustrating aspect is that we are not part of the debate. All debates in this forum take place after the fun pimps have made their decision. And we have no knowledge of what arguments were made in that debate.

 

And the thing with the feedback is not so simple. Player A has bad luck and progresses only very slowly, player B, on the other hand, reports that everything moves much too fast. Whose feedback carries more weight?

 

 

I was counting the debate on forums and social media when I said the debate. That's what I meant. You might not see it because you prefer that TFP capitulate all the way to the way you want it but that doesn't change the historical facts that TFP almost always adjusts back to some degree many of the changes they made that caused in heated debates on this forum-- much to the ire and consternation of other forum users who liked the full changes and then claim TFP gave in to "casuals". (I'm not saying I agree with that--just reporting what I've seen every cycle)

 

I remember the debate over sleeper density in POIs for A17. That was a loud debate: that POIs were now like "Clown Cars". I was disappointed when TFP adjusted the POI populations back towards mostly empty-- although now with infestation everyone can get what they want-- but that's three years after the original nerf based on community debates.

 

The real problem is your assumption that anything that is implemented today constitutes any developer's final decision. Until we hit 1.0 there are no final decisions and everything is a work in progress. If everyone would just internalize this truth that everything is potentially on the chopping block until they finally announce the game is done, it would really go a long way towards alleviating so many worries. There has been no final decision on anything yet. There are things that are very improbable to happen such as return to LBD but even that or some hybridization between magazines, skillpoints, and LBD still happening could conceivably be possible if TFP decided they wanted to do it. Why? Because of how much debate on the subject there has been and the years of testing and playing and most of all: The final decision hasn't been made yet on anything. Its all WIP.

 

As to your second point, this is precisely why it takes TFP months to years to make adjustments that people are clamoring for (If they do decide to do it). I know I risk another blow up response by several people claiming that there's no point to posting when I make this next statement:

 

TFP doesn't value kneejerk response feedback as much as they do aggregate feedback after longterm play collected from many different sources. They've made some changes already that I personally feel were probably a bit too hasty but I have confidence they will find the right spot on each dial over the next year or so.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

17 minutes ago, Roland said:

I was counting the debate on forums and social media when I said the debate. That's what I meant. You might not see it because you prefer that TFP capitulate all the way to the way you want it but that doesn't change the historical facts that TFP almost always adjusts back to some degree many of the changes they made that caused in heated debates on this forum-- much to the ire and consternation of other forum users who liked the full changes and then claim TFP gave in to "casuals". (I'm not saying I agree with that--just reporting what I've seen every cycle)

I don't expect anything to be completely rolled back but some more communication would be really nice. For example, when a change is announced, the story behind it could help to understand the decision. Why is the change being made, what is the goal and what alternatives have been considered.

 

28 minutes ago, Roland said:

I remember the debate over sleeper density in POIs for A17. That was a loud debate: that POIs were now like "Clown Cars". I was disappointed when TFP adjusted the POI populations back towards mostly empty-- although now with infestation everyone can get what they want-- but that's three years after the original nerf based on community debates.

I also remember the debates and was surprised that the number of zombies was reduced so much. The way I saw it, it was the small POIs that the players complained about. In a big POI like the waterworks, for example, it's logical to assume that there are a lot of zombies in there, but when 9 zombies come out of a 3x3 room, it seems a bit strange.

 

34 minutes ago, Roland said:

TFP doesn't value kneejerk response feedback as much as they do aggregate feedback after longterm play collected from many different sources. They've made some changes already that I personally feel were probably a bit too hasty but I have confidence they will find the right spot on each dial over the next year or so.

I hope that will be the case.

 

[Lasher]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

 Do you hope for their failure?

 

 

Thank you for your response Roland - much appreciated.

I may have my doubts but I certainly do not wish for anyone's failure.

I've put thousands of hours into this game - I'd like it to be as good as it can be.

 

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, RipClaw said:

I don't expect anything to be completely rolled back but some more communication would be really nice. For example, when a change is announced, the story behind it could help to understand the decision. Why is the change being made, what is the goal and what alternatives have been considered.

 

I also remember the debates and was surprised that the number of zombies was reduced so much. The way I saw it, it was the small POIs that the players complained about. In a big POI like the waterworks, for example, it's logical to assume that there are a lot of zombies in there, but when 9 zombies come out of a 3x3 room, it seems a bit strange.

 

I hope that will be the case.

 

Few developers give this kind of information out, or rarely do.  They don't have to explain themselves to us.  I agree that more communication is great and I applaud the developers who do provide a lot of details on the process involved in the decisions they make but that is rare and not to be expected.

[Slingblade2040]

2 hours ago, warmer said:

if you have enough dew collectors you essentially have unlimited money because you can sell fresh water. Unless I am mistaken. Thats a good 1000 dukes a day for 5 water collectors. the same reason they nerfed corn. Once you have enough to create more wealth resources per day that it cost to create another, the economy completely breaks.

You can also easily farm up crazy amounts of stone and sell each stock for 1.2k, brass is collected very easily and also sells for alot with minimal effort. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of mods, tools, weapons and armor we find in a PoI that then sells for a bunch. 

 

The economy in this game has always been broken. Here are more easy to collect and sell things like plastic, same with mechanical parts, hell even spam running low tier infestations can net you alot of dukes from selling the ammo.

 

The time it takes you to collect all that water you could have easily made 5 or 6x thats amount from collecting and selling resources or doing some low tier infestations.

[Syphon583]

4 hours ago, Lasher said:

As in they'd know what a proper dev process looks like - yes.

You're confusing "typical" with "proper". Just because that's how things typically work in AAA gaming studios (or even many indie studios) does not mean that what TFP have chosen to do isn't proper. It's a perfectly viable way of doing things and thousands of gamers seem to be perfectly fine with it.

Edited June 30, 2023 by Syphon583
double post (see edit history)

[Lasher]

6 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

You're confusing "typical" with "proper". Just because that's how things typically work in AAA gaming studios (or even many indie studios) does not mean that what TFP have chosen to do isn't proper. It's a perfectly viable way of doing things and thousands of gamers seem to be perfectly fine with it.

 

I think we'll just agree to disagree on that one as I really don't want to keep arguing the point.

If you think that for a game of this scope it's ok to still be in EA 10 years on then fair enough.

I've made my point often enough and if you're ok with it then that's fine.

 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, hiemfire said:

If the game day is still 24hrs long then 1 game hour at default time settings is 2 minutes and 30 seconds.

 

Oops, correct. And that frequency is more in line with what I remember from using an auger in some previous alpha and it could be too much

Edited July 1, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

41 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Oops, correct. And that frequency is more in line with what I remember from using an auger in some previous alpha and it could be too much

 And easily abused for Z-Bag farming.

[FinkPloyd]

13 hours ago, Lasher said:

 

Firstly - go and ask ANY serious game or software dev if a game of this scope should still be in EA after 10 years.

 

 

I am a 'serious software dev' (a Software Solutions Architect) and I disagree with your statement.

 

I would appreciate if you stopped saying you represent my opinion in your posts.

 

[Lasher]

4 hours ago, FinkPloyd said:

 

I am a 'serious software dev' (a Software Solutions Architect) and I disagree with your statement.

 

I would appreciate if you stopped saying you represent my opinion in your posts.

 

 

Feel free to replace ANY with MOST.

Feel better now?

[warmer]

15 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

You can also easily farm up crazy amounts of stone and sell each stock for 1.2k, brass is collected very easily and also sells for alot with minimal effort. Not to mention the ridiculous amount of mods, tools, weapons and armor we find in a PoI that then sells for a bunch. 

.

you are confusing passive vs active. You dont spend any game hours "making water" you can be grabbing stacks of stone while you wait. lol

 

passive vs. using precious game hours is a big difference. Then add to the fact that mining will level you up which increases game stage and get stacks of water doesn't in anyway level you like mining. Completely passive income and no influence on game stage = broken economy.

 

you example is the exact opposite of what I am describing

[theFlu]

Selling water.. really? I just pulled a stack from my store, it's 80 dukes for stack. Trader takes three stacks per the three day reset, so a stack a day.

 

Just to pay for the filter, 2250 (?), that's 30 stacks, or about 100 days (as one filter produces 3 water a day, 30 stacks = 300 water = 100 days). After 100 days of daily looting the water and "3-daily" selling, you've earned yourself a new filter.

 

So, yeah, it's "profitable", but the growth rate is ridiculously slow. And each new filter needs one new trader to accept all of the produced water, so your selling trips grow with every addition.

 

EDIT: I thought I had had a brainfart, but I was just currently having one - so I clarified the "100 days" a bit.

Edited July 1, 2023 by theFlu (see edit history)

[Scyris]

13 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Selling water.. really? I just pulled a stack from my store, it's 80 dukes for stack. Trader takes three stacks per the three day reset, so a stack a day.

 

Just to pay for the filter, 2250 (?), that's 30 stacks, or about 100 days. After 100 days of daily looting the water and "3-daily" selling, you've earned yourself a new filter.

 

So, yeah, it's "profitable", but the growth rate is ridiculously slow. And each new filter needs one new trader to accept all of the produced water, so your selling trips grow with every addition.

 

I'd rather just do 3 t1 clears, or 2 t2 clears and just buy one, much faster. Beside you need that water why would you sell it of all the other possible things you could make a better profit of it anyway?

[Gamida]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I was counting the debate on forums and social media when I said the debate. That's what I meant. You might not see it because you prefer that TFP capitulate all the way to the way you want it but that doesn't change the historical facts that TFP almost always adjusts back to some degree many of the changes they made that caused in heated debates on this forum-- much to the ire and consternation of other forum users who liked the full changes and then claim TFP gave in to "casuals". (I'm not saying I agree with that--just reporting what I've seen every cycle)

 

 

 

The only way I could see around this is probably not possible as would most likely be too long to implement.

As you say appeasing one side group would most like likely @%$# off another side group.

The only way I could see to fix it is to make pretty much everything adjustable in menus with buttons, sliders and switches.

Not moddable but actual adjustments you can make in the vanilla game so that veterans and noobs alike could do it

I have no idea on how to program a game but I can speculate that it would be very difficult to do it for a multitude of settings so

that everyone could adjust the game to their liking.

The closest thing I can see is the path they are on now. Add menus for as much as they can and make everything else moddable so

hopefully modders will come up with enough changes to please the rest.

[warmer]

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

Selling water.. really? I just pulled a stack from my store, it's 80 dukes for stack. Trader takes three stacks per the three day reset, so a stack a day.

 

Just to pay for the filter, 2250 (?), that's 30 stacks, or about 100 days (as one filter produces 3 water a day, 30 stacks = 300 water = 100 days). After 100 days of daily looting the water and "3-daily" selling, you've earned yourself a new filter.

 

I see what you are saying. That's at base selling prices, and only to traders. That doesn't count any player vending machines on an MP server. It wouldn't be perfect, but you could certainly abuse the mechanic pretty easily. The prices of the water filters go down and your selling price of water goes up as you level the associated skills, so day 1 sure it sucks. Max out better barter and those filters cost 1688 and that water is worth 10 each. 5 stations time now goes down to 11 days and you have another filter.

This is only if you are selling to traders and not other players using trader stores in MP. Solo who cares if you cheese it. MP it BREAKS when things like this get out of hand. This isn't as bad as it could be, but if you sold 15 water a day to players at store prices, that's a new filter everyday with barter 5.

[theFlu]

11 minutes ago, warmer said:

on an MP server.

I don't do MP servers, so I may be off by a wide margin, but.. you're essentially arguing that a Free Resource will make so much free money that it needed to be limited. If it's free for you, then it's free for everyone else as well, no?

 

If you can talk people into throwing money at you then great, but usually a free resource isn't exactly great at making money ...

 

In something like generating inflation, as in printing new dukes, I could see some level of caution required; but this would not even do that, the dukes need be generated by other means.

 

(For clarity, I don't have strong feelings of the heat mechanic, either way. Screamers are mostly fun, but I do play SP so I rarely see one)

[meganoth]

57 minutes ago, warmer said:

I see what you are saying. That's at base selling prices, and only to traders. That doesn't count any player vending machines on an MP server. It wouldn't be perfect, but you could certainly abuse the mechanic pretty easily. The prices of the water filters go down and your selling price of water goes up as you level the associated skills, so day 1 sure it sucks. Max out better barter and those filters cost 1688 and that water is worth 10 each. 5 stations time now goes down to 11 days and you have another filter.

This is only if you are selling to traders and not other players using trader stores in MP. Solo who cares if you cheese it. MP it BREAKS when things like this get out of hand. This isn't as bad as it could be, but if you sold 15 water a day to players at store prices, that's a new filter everyday with barter 5.

 

TFP only balances servers up to 8 players. With only 7 potential customers for water you can't get rich even if there were demand for easily obtainable water. So this doesn't work as a motive for TFP to introduce any limits or detriments

 

[fragtzack]

IMHO, some person in this thread is worthy of  moderator action (suspended post creates for like 14 days). 

 

 A constant toxic drip of negativity.