Dew collector nerf in New update?

[SylenThunder]

3 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

Ah yes because the 1500 dukes and having to go out and collect the plastic for it wasn't enough they raised it to over 2.2k dukes on top of how slow it is and how the water didn't stack which forced us to mass produce it to meet the high water drain. There is no way to justify this ridiculous nerf.  This is them being total A**holes.  This item is a tarp with some stick that collects moisture. This isn't a furnace or if you want to play that silly crafting station card a work station where we have to use tools to pound metals or other items that would generate heat to make something.

 

If they were going to end up doing this BS about factory level mass production then they should have kept the jars in the game since by your logic it causes the same problems since we have to fire up campfires and forges which guess what generate heat and call reason screamers which actually makes sense.

 

There is a difference between cost to acquire, and cost to maintain/use.

[pApA^LeGBa]

I can fully understand every other workstation generating heat as it makes noise. But these are water drops. That´s simply weird. It´s not a workstation either, it´s a passive collector. Completly different than a workstation as it makes no noise and you don´t need materials to craft nor do you have to do anything other than emptying it, as it is a collector.

 

And this change hits MP way harder than SP again. There is a time span early game where you don´t get screamers, due to not enough ressources for workstations. This time span is now significantly shorter in MP and you don´t even need the collector in SP.

 

Thx again for messing up MP  due to a change that makes nothing harder than before in SP only more tedious. Water is still not a problem in SP and that´s without dew collectors. I don´t need them at all in SP. Enough glue, ductape, water in loot and here and there i buy some.  

 

This is the outrageous part about this change, it was supposed to make the survival part harder, but that totally failed. In MP it´s only for 10-14 days aswell that there isn´t enough water (that´s for crafting, the survival part didn´t really get harder in MP aswell). And on top of that food was buffed. Why was food buffed? There is so much food now it´s riddiculous.

Edited June 29, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Zerginfestor]

Just now, SylenThunder said:

 

There is a difference between cost to acquire, and cost to maintain/use.

 

And yet, the cost to maintain is still much higher than before, to the point that I'd have to argue on why even add the heat generation? It's already demanding your attention every 45 minutes, because if you're not efficient with your water gathering of said bare minimum, you are actually going for a net negative. Sure, the heat generation stops, but so does the water generation, and pulling out the water to survive simply starts up the long process again while also apparently starting up heat generation once more? 

 

If I don't have to pull the water out to drink it, then...the dew collector is entirely worthless. Because that tells me that I've acquired more than enough from raids. This just seems like unnecessary complexity attempt for a beginning tier-survival demand of 'find water'. These changes ask more questions than answer them. 

[Slingblade2040]

1 minute ago, SylenThunder said:

 

There is a difference between cost to acquire, and cost to maintain/use.

So then by that logic all blocks, crafting stations and traps should deteriorate over time forcing us to repair them. Ya know cost to maintain and use our base properly right? 

 

They shouldn't just take damage from some zombie smacking them they should deteriorate over time like 1% damage per in game day since we are using the base for shelter right? The whole cost to maintain/use right. 

 

This update makes no sense. This the pimps as usual throwing a tantrum because they caused a problem with the water, the players found a solution and they got mad and nerfed it to hell.

 

 

[SylenThunder]

10 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

So then by that logic all blocks, crafting stations and traps should deteriorate over time forcing us to repair them. Ya know cost to maintain and use our base properly right? 

This was actually a proposed feature at once. Decay over time requiring you to maintain your base, so that inactive bases would degrade and disappear, and additional randomness to simulate other factions occupying POI's.  I believe it was determined that the overhead required for such a mechanic would be too costly.  IIRC, that was around a13-a15 that it was discussed.

[meganoth]

15 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

So then by that logic all blocks, crafting stations and traps should deteriorate over time forcing us to repair them. Ya know cost to maintain and use our base properly right? 

 

They shouldn't just take damage from some zombie smacking them they should deteriorate over time like 1% damage per in game day since we are using the base for shelter right? The whole cost to maintain/use right. 

 

Sure, TFP could have done that as well or even instead of the heat generation, but they didn't and there is nothing forcing them to do that as well.

 

It seems it is enough that the cost is in zombie visits which is arguably more fun to most people (except you naturally) than deteriorating equipment.

 

15 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

 

This update makes no sense. This the pimps as usual throwing a tantrum because they caused a problem with the water, the players found a solution and they got mad and nerfed it to hell.

 

 

 

Yeah sure, TFP did add 3 filters to each trader and you think they did not expect that groups of players would build farms of them, even though that was the first thing some players complained about the dew collectors?? Sorry, your conspiracy theory makes no sense.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, SylenThunder said:

All they have done is given the dew collector the same cost as the other crafting stations. Maybe the current level of heat generation is a bit high, but that could be adjusted. 

There is a difference between the dew collector and the other workstations. I can switch the other workstations on and off. Heat is only generated when I am actively doing something. The dew collectors, on the other hand, passively collect water until they are full.

 

The only way to stop a dew collector would be to place a block over the dew collector so that they no longer work or you would have to pick them up.

 

[Lasher]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

 

Hey I undeterstand getting upset when you read something you don't like or disagree with but no need with the name calling / toxicity.

 

People asked questions and Faatal and I explained why respectfully and this is the response you give?

 

 

I'm sorry - "name calling and toxicity"?

There was neither of either.

I, like a lot of folk feel that we should express our concerns about the changes that TFP keep making that seem to be neithr thought through or tested.

I personally am also sick to death of members of this forum - usually freinds of the developers simply defending every single action they take with excuses.

My response was my truthful opionon, and being on the QA team I'm harldy surprised that you didn't like it.

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

No. That is your interpretation of what happened. For me it looks more logical that they simply forgot to include the heat generation in a few workstations and noticed it suddenly. It isn't even certain that it was noticed with the collectors but likely because currently dew collectors are tested a lot more than the cement mixer. But it is certainly telling that it was added to 3 workstations at the same time.

 

I even think that filled farm plots should also generate a small amount of heat. Did you know that in A15 farms plants were actually targeted by zombies and had to be protected by walls? There is a good chance that TFP eventually does add some "heat cost" to plots, and please remember I said it here. It will not be a reaction and nerf bat to some players having big farms, it will simply be because they want to measure the players "influence and activity" on an area with as much accuracy and as low as possible CPU cycles. And they want NO 100% safe zones. Because of that zombies dig, and workstations are zombie magnets.

 

There has been no problems with dew collectors. But there seems to be a problem with no screamers showing up. In my SP game I am on day 35 and I haven't seen a single screamer. In our group game we are somewhere after second horde night and again, not a single screamer.

 

TFP likes zombies to attack the player, that is one of the central game elements of 7D2D and really any zombie game. If you don't like to be visited by a screamer once in a while I have to wonder why you play a zombie game? TFP probably doesn't know either, they think screamers are fun.

 

 

I don't know the details, sorrry. But I can imagine that flame traps were simply OP. Were they? They don't seem to need any sort of fuel or upkeep and they don't wear out. Would they kill ferals or even glowies when they walked through? If yes, then they were OP. So they were nerfed, this time actually as a reaction to players using them. Does that make TFP the villain in this piece? I would say it makes them the balance-maker. Balance trumps realism I would say.

 

 

Because it is not a stupid decision. It follows the same design principle they always had: "No place is secure". If you don't like that doesn't mean it is stupid.

 

meganoth - I'm very sorry mate but you point blank defend and agree with every single action that the TFP make no matter what it is.

Just finding an excuse and a rationalisation for every move they make doesn't really help and in the end will just encourage the delusion that they're always right.

They're not infalliable and I don't think that encouraging the idea that they are helps.

 

[SylenThunder]

31 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

There is a difference between the dew collector and the other workstations. I can switch the other workstations on and off. Heat is only generated when I am actively doing something. The dew collectors, on the other hand, passively collect water until they are full.

 

The only way to stop a dew collector would be to place a block over the dew collector so that they no longer work or you would have to pick them up.

 

The dew collector is only working when it's making water. If it fills and you haven't emptied it, it is not doing anything and not generating heat.

[RipClaw]

7 minutes ago, SylenThunder said:

The dew collector is only working when it's making water. If it fills and you haven't emptied it, it is not doing anything and not generating heat.

But only then. Otherwise I have no control over the heat production. With all other workbenches I can control when heat is generated.

I don't want the screamers to spawn when I turn on the chemistry station? Then I switch off a forge and the heat remains at a low level.

 

I do not have this kind of on/off switch with the dew collectors. When they have been emptied, they run uninterrupted for the next 60 minutes.

 

[Khalagar]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

The question is how often the screamers spawn. Once an hour, I can live with that, but at the moment it looks like they are spawning every couple of minutes.

3 dew collectors are currently equivalent to a forge in terms of heat generation. I have 12 dew collectors and currently have 2 forges and a chemistry station running.

 

That may seem like a lot to some, but I've had bases with up to 10 forges and 4 chemistry stations running.

 

Just because you've had even more, doesn't mean that's not still a lot lol

 

I guess I'm still not understanding the issue.

 

Build mega base with tons of heat generation = Zombies notice

 

That's the whole point of the game really, and means you want to have a decently defended base before you rebuild the entire city with your 36 cement mixers and forges  48 water collectors all going at once. My current base just has some stairs leading up to the entrance with two junk sledges guarding it, and they take care of any screamers and horders that wander in, so it's free exp for me

 

AFAIK heat map's range is affected by vertical block count too, so building at bedrock on top of a big building will stop screamers from spawning if it's that big of a deal.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Khalagar (see edit history)

[Slingblade2040]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Sure, TFP could have done that as well or even instead of the heat generation, but they didn't and there is nothing forcing them to do that as well.

 

It seems it is enough that the cost is in zombie visits which is arguably more fun to most people (except you naturally) than deteriorating equipment.

 

 

Yeah sure, TFP did add 3 filters to each trader and you think they did not expect that groups of players would build farms of them, even though that was the first thing some players complained about the dew collectors?? Sorry, your conspiracy theory makes no sense.

 

They didn't expect players to make a farm of them? So basically either they have no clue how to play or the testers just built one and told to only use one. It's well known that players even the youtubers were building multiple along with the complaints of people building a bunch to maintain crafting needs because how big a nerf this was.

 

I'm not complaining about zombies visiting the base. I'm complaining about what a ridiculous update this is, to make an item that we can't turn off constantly generate heat, to add an additional problem to something they created because God forbid folks craft duct tape is dumb. 

 

If the response one of your fellow mods posted about cost and maintain to use then I guess having to farm up bones, gather wood and run that campfire to produce glue and then gather the cloth to make duct tape wasn't enough or even a thought huh? Not to mention actually have ingredients to go out and harvest for those items which cost time. 

 

Bad enough they didn't make the water stack in the collectors which forced players to build so many but I guess they didn't think about that either huh?  Guess as usual it's up to the modders to keep fixing the mistakes the pimps do. 

[RipClaw]

34 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

Just because you've had even more, doesn't mean that's not still a lot lol

For a single player maybe but a single player needs 2 or 3 dew collectors just for cooking and drinking and maybe a bit in glue to production. So 12 dew collectors might be enough for a group of just 4-6 players and the game is designed for up to 8 players.

 

34 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

I guess I'm still not understanding the issue.

 

Build mega base with tons of heat generation = Zombies notice

The problem is that it is too frequent. You also want to have a bit of peace and quiet. In addition, such a screamer horde can get out of control extremely quickly at higher gamestages. Then a screamer spawns a screamer, which in turn spawns screamers. I've had so many zombies in a screamer horde that I've had frame drops that were far worse than on horde nights and I play with 32 zombies.

 

Also, screamers are extremely annoying. They don't just run towards the heat source in a straight line. They sneak around and make their whining noises.

 

34 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

AFAIK heat map's range is affected by vertical block count too, so building at bedrock on top of a big building will stop screamers from spawning if it's that big of a deal.

That used to be the case, but not any more. The bedrock has been raised so that you can no longer build deep enough for it. The only possibility would be to build under a mountain.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by RipClaw (see edit history)

[Survior]

3 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

They didn't expect players to make a farm of them? So basically either they have no clue how to play or the testers just built one and told to only use one. It's well known that players even the youtubers were building multiple along with the complaints of people building a bunch to maintain crafting needs because how big a nerf this was.

 

I'm not complaining about zombies visiting the base. I'm complaining about what a ridiculous update this is, to make an item that we can't turn off constantly generate heat, to add an additional problem to something they created because God forbid folks craft duct tape is dumb. 

 

If the response one of your fellow mods posted about cost and maintain to use then I guess having to farm up bones, gather wood and run that campfire to produce glue and then gather the cloth to make duct tape wasn't enough or even a thought huh? Not to mention actually have ingredients to go out and harvest for those items which cost time. 

 

Bad enough they didn't make the water stack in the collectors which forced players to build so many but I guess they didn't think about that either huh?  Guess as usual it's up to the modders to keep fixing the mistakes the pimps do. 

 

I've 100% lost faith that TFP have a clue about how to balance a game and as far as I'm concerned that is a majority opinion. A21 looks nice, like a party-girl, but it's heart is rotten and they just don't have any idea how to make it better. The heat generation thing just brings us full circle to campfire glue, it's ridiculous, they could be working on dozens of things and they top priority this update was "NERF GLUE".

 

 

[Slingblade2040]

33 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

 

Just because you've had even more, doesn't mean that's not still a lot lol

 

I guess I'm still not understanding the issue.

 

Build mega base with tons of heat generation = Zombies notice

 

That's the whole point of the game really, and means you want to have a decently defended base before you rebuild the entire city with your 36 cement mixers and forges  48 water collectors all going at once. My current base just has some stairs leading up to the entrance with two junk sledges guarding it, and they take care of any screamers and horders that wander in, so it's free exp for me

 

AFAIK heat map's range is affected by vertical block count too, so building at bedrock on top of a big building will stop screamers from spawning if it's that big of a deal.

36 furnaces and cement makes are expected to make heat. Furnace for obvious reasons and the cement mixers because of the motor. 

 

Idc how many dew collectors people have a freaken tarp and some sticks that collects condensation shouldn't generate heat. That's just beyond ridiculous. 

 

They might as well make it so walking generates heats, opening trade windows with the traders generates heat. Heck might as well make the rain generate heat as well since those rain drops are hitting objects.

 

This update would be more understandable if they added an advanced water collector that used a motor or whatever to speed up the process. That would make sense but this update makes no sense at all.

[meganoth]

42 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

But only then. Otherwise I have no control over the heat production. With all other workbenches I can control when heat is generated.

I don't want the screamers to spawn when I turn on the chemistry station? Then I switch off a forge and the heat remains at a low level.

 

I do not have this kind of on/off switch with the dew collectors. When they have been emptied, they run uninterrupted for the next 60 minutes.

 

 

I am sure that Heat is supposed to be an internal mechanism that normal players should not know about except that some tooltip says "Your activities can make you conspicuous and you might get visited by zombies" and they would experience slowly what that means. The players would then find out by themselves that the more stuff they set up in their bases the more often they get visited.

 

 

 

[fragtzack]

1 hour ago, Lasher said:

 

I'm sorry - "name calling and toxicity"?

There was neither of either.

 

 

Lasher, your posts were full of insults and toxic statements.  Take a chill pill man. 

[meganoth]

14 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

They didn't expect players to make a farm of them? So basically either they have no clue how to play or the testers just built one and told to only use one. It's well known that players even the youtubers were building multiple along with the complaints of people building a bunch to maintain crafting needs because how big a nerf this was.

 

Naturally they expected players to make a farm of them! I was using irony to show that your theory is silly.

 

14 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

 

I'm not complaining about zombies visiting the base. I'm complaining about what a ridiculous update this is, to make an item that we can't turn off constantly generate heat, to add an additional problem to something they created because God forbid folks craft duct tape is dumb. 

 

If the response one of your fellow mods posted about cost and maintain to use then I guess having to farm up bones, gather wood and run that campfire to produce glue and then gather the cloth to make duct tape wasn't enough or even a thought huh? Not to mention actually have ingredients to go out and harvest for those items which cost time. 

 

Bad enough they didn't make the water stack in the collectors which forced players to build so many but I guess they didn't think about that either huh?  Guess as usual it's up to the modders to keep fixing the mistakes the pimps do. 

 

 

 

[theFlu]

12 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

make it so walking generates heats

Weell, jumping does. So don't fall off that sidewalk too often. (or did at some point, haven't checked in ages..)

[RipClaw]

5 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I am sure that Heat is supposed to be an internal mechanism that normal players should not know about except that some tooltip says "Your activities can make you conspicuous and you might get visited by zombies" and they would experience slowly what that means. The players would then find out by themselves that the more stuff they set up in their bases the more often they get visited.

Depends on the player and his playing style. Since the heat is only relevant when you are close enough for the chunk to be loaded, players who are mostly on the go won't notice much. And it's too late for it to be just an internal mechanic and that the player has to find out how it works. There are videos out there that show you how to set up a screamer farm and how the heat mechanic works in detail.

 

And as I wrote in a different post, screamer hordes can get pretty quickly out of hand. Calling it a visit from a few zombies is an understatement.

 

[madmole]

19 hours ago, Slingblade2040 said:

• Dew collector creates activity heat when filling

So if any if you folks have a bunch of those things set up it looks like you might be in for a screamer fest. Just curious is there even a way to turn them off?

 

I haven't bothered making those useless things but I know alot of players use them especially in MP so this seems like a massive F'in nerf. I swear the pimps have no clue what to do with this game anymore or fix the issues they cause.

Once full they no longer generate heat.

 

[Slingblade2040]

1 minute ago, madmole said:

Once full they no longer generate heat.

 

So basically either let them get full to minimize possibility of screamers which then further limits the amount of water we get or keep collecting So they keep producing increase the chances of screamers which can easily get out of control? 

 

Ridiculous to implement *heat* production into something we can't turn off. How is this any different than mass producing bullets in a crafting station unless that also generates alot of *heat* which should call in screamers.  Seriously does crafting bullets in the workbench generate heat? And if not why should the dew collector make heat if that doesn't?

[Vaeliorin]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

If you don't like to be visited by a screamer once in a while I have to wonder why you play a zombie game? TFP probably doesn't know either, they think screamers are fun.

For me at least, the fact this is a "zombie" game is at best a net neutral, if not a negative.  If it was aliens or mutants or something, there would be more freedom to do crazy things with the enemies, and it would also explain there ability to dig through steel with their hands.  I play this game because of the free building and tower defense aspects.  But I realize I'm not the majority in this.

18 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Depends on the player and his playing style. Since the heat is only relevant when you are close enough for the chunk to be loaded, players who are mostly on the go won't notice much.

I recall coming back to my base and finding holes carved in it by screamers (you could tell it was screamers because the trail of destruction always ended underneath my crafting stations) while I was gone, but I think that was mostly from A16.4.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Lasher said:

 

I'm sorry - "name calling and toxicity"?

There was neither of either.

I, like a lot of folk feel that we should express our concerns about the changes that TFP keep making that seem to be neithr thought through or tested.

I personally am also sick to death of members of this forum - usually freinds of the developers simply defending every single action they take with excuses.

My response was my truthful opionon, and being on the QA team I'm harldy surprised that you didn't like it.

 

meganoth - I'm very sorry mate but you point blank defend and agree with every single action that the TFP make no matter what it is.

Just finding an excuse and a rationalisation for every move they make doesn't really help and in the end will just encourage the delusion that they're always right.

They're not infalliable and I don't think that encouraging the idea that they are helps.

 

 

Since your current position seems so extreme I have no idea how to even be in the same hemisphere. I frankly don't know why you still play the game or do EA at all.

 

Do you really think feedback like

Quote

I don't really know what's wrong over at TFP - but something certainly is - I don't know if it's laziness, incompetence, bad planning, mis management or just a good old case of "weve already got the money so we just don't care" - maybe a combination of all of them.

As for thier attitude towards anyone who doesn't like it - well I think we've all seen quite clearly how that goes.

 

is talking about facts or seriously discussing the game and the changes? Don't you see that you are just having a tantrum there? Why should anyone take you serious?

 

They are not infallible, sure. They missed the quality overlap between stone tools and tier 1 tools and didn't notice it. Many, including me by the way, told them about this being wrong in a matter of fact way and they changed it. Not by standing on a sandbox and shouting "Are they lazy, incompetent or what?"

 

(They currently are also wrong with stealth (probably) and there need to be balance fixes eventually. But because I don't have played a full stealth game yet and compared it to a STR or FOR play I can't exactly say anything for sure. Does that make me careful with what I am saying or a believer?)

 

The dew collector solution is ok and accomplishes what it sets out to do, but I wouldn't say it is their best idea. But the heat change is fine and easily understandable if you accept what heat means in the game. I am not just making up theories, there are precedents in other games, even board games where it is apparent to everyone that such a mechanism is just an abstraction.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jost Amman]

18 minutes ago, Slingblade2040 said:

So basically either let them get full to minimize possibility of screamers which then further limits the amount of water we get or keep collecting So they keep producing increase the chances of screamers which can easily get out of control? 

 

Ridiculous to implement *heat* production into something we can't turn off. How is this any different than mass producing bullets in a crafting station unless that also generates alot of *heat* which should call in screamers.  Seriously does crafting bullets in the workbench generate heat? And if not why should the dew collector make heat if that doesn't?

No pain, no gain.