Dew collector nerf in New update?

[Survior]

28 minutes ago, warmer said:

This is an interesting change. Lots of ways to deal with it. I think any free resource production should have some influence in how noticable this is for all aggressive entities. For the simple fact that you can easily cheese this in MP and become the king of water and duct tape on the server. You get get ridiculous dukes from selling that with no upper limit.

 

Also this makes perfect sense if you add Bandits and their heatmap to this concept. Those npc types I am sure would take note of a clean water source in their area. This places water into an area of concern when defending. Right now mine is just sitting out in the open.

LOL.

 

Also, I guess "it makes sense" that bandits would use their "WATER RADAR" to track down those dew catchers.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Survior
emphasis (see edit history)

[AtomicUs5000]

3 hours ago, SylenThunder said:

I'm not so certain it's in response to something.

 

They forgot to add the heat to the Workstation and Cement Mixer as well. Both of those got their heat added back in with this update.

 

Hmm. I see that now. I guess because of that there is no way to know. The realization that it was missing for the others could have come about while adding heat to the dew collector.

 

The deliberately chosen values for the dew collector indicate that at the very least, they did think about the impact of giving it heat. It wasn’t just a copy and paste.

[warmer]

23 minutes ago, Survior said:

LOL.

 

Also, I guess "it makes sense" that bandits would use their "WATER RADAR" to track down those dew catchers.

 

you ya know binoculars and rooftops like you would if you were scouting an area. Who is to say they are only interested in water. They could be scouting for signs of a settlement for raiding. lol not to hard to imagine. Would you just randomly roam around looking for resources, or be smart about how you spend your calories?

[Khalagar]

I don't get the backlash to this honestly. Yes if you have a big base you will have zombies and screamers show up, that's like, the whole point of the game

[Riamus]

Easy fix for anyone with large numbers of dew collectors - place them a few hundred meters from your base (not sure the minimum distance necessary to be in an unloaded chunk).  After that, the heat it generates really doesn't matter.  Even if it was in a loaded chunk that was far enough away, the zombies wouldn't likely come to your base.  It just makes it more of a pain to collect the water than if it's at your base.   But since you don't have to worry about it being damaged, you can just put it in a field and call it good as long as you're not on a PVP game or with other players who aren't allied with you and might try to take the water.

 

Otherwise, just put a few guns around the base and if a screamer comes, it'll die before it screams.

 

Easy ways to avoid the annoyance of this change.  The change really shouldn't have been done for the dew collectors or should have a much lower "heat" (aka "activity") value.

[pApA^LeGBa]

26 minutes ago, warmer said:

you ya know binoculars and rooftops like you would if you were scouting an area. Who is to say they are only interested in water. They could be scouting for signs of a settlement for raiding. lol not to hard to imagine. Would you just randomly roam around looking for resources, or be smart about how you spend your calories?

 

That would be a good explanation. If you couldn´t simply hide them underground as long as you have 7 blocks of free space above them.

 

It´s one thing that cementmixers and such do genertate heat, that´s expected. But water doing natural things? I mean dew is everywhere on every surface. There wouild be a lot of screamers in the whole world. But whatever, i don´t care about the heatgeneration, it´s just another really weird thing in A21.

 

If this whole water change would even make things harder in XP that would be at least something. But it simply changes the way to get infinite water in SP, never had a lack of water to drink, never did i have to postpone crafting something, i always have enough water for glue. It only effects MP in terms of beeing harder and only for like 10-14 days. Propably even shorter now that we know exactly how things are going. Now things are just weirder than before, MP is harder and we have more magic happening with dissappearing jars. Yay. Another immersion killer.

 

I can already see lots of people having underground dew collectors with an entrance far enough away so you don´t run into the screamers it attracts.

Edited June 29, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

The deliberately chosen values for the dew collector indicate that at the very least, they did think about the impact of giving it heat. It wasn’t just a copy and paste.

Looks to me like 3 dew collectors = a forge. I have 12 dew collectors on the roof and that would be the equivalent of 4 forges running all the time. 
I guess I will have to automate my screamer defense.
 

[AtomicUs5000]

4 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

Looks to me like 3 dew collectors = a forge. I have 12 dew collectors on the roof and that would be the equivalent of 4 forges running all the time. 
I guess I will have to automate my screamer defense.
 

Yeah… provided that you empty them, it very well could be the easiest screamer farm to maintain yet.

[Survior]

Nothing offends the undead more than morning dew being collected in magical jars that disappear when you drink from them.

 

[RipClaw]

1 minute ago, AtomicUs5000 said:

Yeah… provided that you empty them, it very well could be the easiest screamer farm to maintain yet.

I don't want to farm screamers. I want to farm fruits and vegetables. Screamers make a bunch of unpleasant noises when you try to cook them and they don't taste particularly good.
 

[Laz Man]

52 minutes ago, Khalagar said:

I don't get the backlash to this honestly. Yes if you have a big base you will have zombies and screamers show up, that's like, the whole point of the game

 

Folks should go play and come back here with how it feels before judging it so harshly.  This is not a new concept players have had to manage in past alphas (e.g. other "workbenches" generating "activity".   As Faatal stated, we will balance accordingly if there are issues.  After QA playtests, it wasn't horrible, but they are not infallible so go play and let us know how it feels to you and provide details why.

 

One day, who knows, bandits could come and target specific things in your base as a new challenge.  Lots of fun new gameplay is on the horizon so prepare your bodies.  😎

 

 

[AtomicUs5000]

6 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I don't want to farm screamers. I want to farm fruits and vegetables. Screamers make a bunch of unpleasant noises when you try to cook them and they don't taste particularly good.
 

Speaking of, plant growth is another natural process. Shouldn’t farms add to the heat map under the same logic people are using to justify the dew collectors?

[Riamus]

12 minutes ago, Laz Man said:

 

Folks should go play and come back here with how it feels before judging it so harshly.  This is not a new concept players have had to manage in past alphas (e.g. other "workbenches" generating "activity".   As Faatal stated, we will balance accordingly if there are issues.  After QA playtests, it wasn't horrible, but they are not infallible so go play and let us know how it feels to you and provide details why.

 

One day, who knows, bandits could come and target specific things in your base as a new challenge.  Lots of fun new gameplay is on the horizon so prepare your bodies.  😎

 

 

For a single player or a smaller group that doesn't feel the need for a lot of dew collectors, this won't make any difference.  For those who aren't ever at their base for long periods of time, this won't make an difference.  For anyone who spends a lot of time at their base and who has a lot of dew collectors (20+) and always keeps them emptied so they are always running, this is likely to generate so much heat that it couldn't be called anything other than annoying.  People are likely to make far more dew collectors than any other workstation because they are so slow and unlike other workstations that are generally used for a period of time and then not used for quite a while, dew collectors are likely to be emptied regularly unless someone forgets and so will constantly be generating heat.  It is really not a great idea to have heat on these, or it should at least be much lower value such as 10 dew collectors generate heat equal to 1 forge.

 

The thing with the idea of "try it and get back to us" is that for most players, they'll either not have many or will not be near their base long enough at a time for these to impact them at all.  So none of them will really complain other than just to say how bad it sounds to have dew collectors drawing zombies to you.  So it will appear like it's not a big deal and works fine.  But the problem is that those who are using a lot of them will have to use workarounds - even if they are easy, like having auto-turrets around the base to snipe the screamers before they can scream - for no real value, imo.

 

Btw, if bandits are going to try to find/attack the player/base, they really need something different from the current heat map setup.  The current setup is barely okay for zombies but wouldn't be a great thing for bandits.  Bandits would be attracted by noise loud enough to hear from a distance (definitely not something a dew collector will create), light during the night (if your base has no windows, a torch will not attract them), a building that stands out such as being larger than normal or more defensive than normal (not an easy thing to manage and probably best ignored), smoke (not everything smokes enough to be noticed), and tracks (not currently in the game but you could heat map the paths players use to get places).  I'm still not sold on bandits being a good addition to this game but we'll see.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

50 minutes ago, Riamus said:

But the problem is that those who are using a lot of them will have to use workarounds - even if they are easy, like having auto-turrets around the base to snipe the screamers before they can scream - for no real value, imo.

 

Workarounds?  Its part of the upkeep with maintaining a production base.  Auto-turrets are a valid strategy to protecting your base but would hardly call that easy as it takes progression and ammo to get those setup.   What do you mean by value?  The value you get with running multiple workbenches is tremendous.  That value comes at the cost of upkeep.  The further you progress in the game, that upkeep gets easier and you are able to grow your base accordingly.

 

Players have been running multiple forges / cement mixers / work benches for ages now, this is just more of the same.

 

Now if you don't like the whole HEAT = Sleeper / Encounter mechanic, that is a different discussion.

Edited June 29, 2023 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Scyris]

2 hours ago, Riamus said:

Easy fix for anyone with large numbers of dew collectors - place them a few hundred meters from your base (not sure the minimum distance necessary to be in an unloaded chunk).  After that, the heat it generates really doesn't matter.  Even if it was in a loaded chunk that was far enough away, the zombies wouldn't likely come to your base.  It just makes it more of a pain to collect the water than if it's at your base.   But since you don't have to worry about it being damaged, you can just put it in a field and call it good as long as you're not on a PVP game or with other players who aren't allied with you and might try to take the water.

 

Otherwise, just put a few guns around the base and if a screamer comes, it'll die before it screams.

 

Easy ways to avoid the annoyance of this change.  The change really shouldn't have been done for the dew collectors or should have a much lower "heat" (aka "activity") value.

 

This does bring the issue of them getting damaged, they have VERY low hp and are easy to destroy, 1 hit from a iron pickaxe with decent perks is enough to destroy it which puts it back in your inventory. Which means a weak zombie can prob kill one in a few hits, while something like a fat zombie would be 1 shotting them. Normally the zombies wouldn't attack them unless they get to close and get stuck on it, which when stuck the zombie switches to destroy mode to try to get out. I use 3 forges in my base myself, one is for iron stuff, another for brass/lead, and the 3rd is for cement/misc stuff (prob lead). As said in vanilla they aren't running all the time so they often have time to cooldown. I usually have 8 dew collectors in a single player game, and I tend to empty them each time I come back from a quest. Might need to move them a bit away from the base (chunks are usually 16x16 blocks iirc) and put a wall around them maybe just wood with a door so I can get inside to loot them. Will have to see how it goes, I usually don't sit in my base much, I mostly craft stuff and drop off loot then I am out away from the base again.

[Old Crow]

5 hours ago, Evil_Geoff said:

I learned a long, LONG time ago while playing tabletop D&D (1st edition, mind you, not even AD&D yet...)

Don't give the GM ideas!

 

I would NOT play D&D with any of the Fun Pimp devs. I would certainly NOT let them DM at my table.

[Scyris]

12 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

I would NOT play D&D with any of the Fun Pimp devs. I would certainly NOT let them DM at my table.

 

Don't blame you I wouldn't either with how its either TFP's way or @%$# off. I'm just glad 7dtd is as modable as it is, as we can fix stupid stuff like this with mods. I am sure someone will make a no-heat from dew collectors modlet eventually. I mean they make them for the forge etc.

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

But the problem is that those who are using a lot of them will have to use workarounds - even if they are easy, like having auto-turrets around the base to snipe the screamers before they can scream - for no real value, imo.

The disadvantage of the auto turrets is that they draw a lot of power and they seem to react not only to screamers or zombies in general but also to animals. In previous Alphas, my auto turrets often killed wolves. I don't know how they react to rabbits, chickens or deer.

 

Do solar panels still cause lags or has this been fixed?

 

 

 

[Old Crow]

18 minutes ago, Scyris said:

 

Don't blame you I wouldn't either with how its either TFP's way or @%$# off. I'm just glad 7dtd is as modable as it is, as we can fix stupid stuff like this with mods. I am sure someone will make a no-heat from dew collectors modlet eventually. I mean they make them for the forge etc.

 

The problem is, they seem to rely too much on "Oh don't like it? Use a mod." Why should we have to?

[Scyris]

12 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

The problem is, they seem to rely too much on "Oh don't like it? Use a mod." Why should we have to?

 

Yeah I know. Anyway, here's a mod to get rid of the heat generation on dew collectors, as the modder says it makes no logical sense why they have it in in the first place. Forge, workbench, camp fire, cement mixer these make sense generating heatmap, but the dew collector? that makes no logical sense at all.

 

https://www.nexusmods.com/7daystodie/mods/3102

[minisith]

40 minutes ago, Old Crow said:

 

The problem is, they seem to rely too much on "Oh don't like it? Use a mod." Why should we have to?

Why should you have to play TFP's game?   All you lot getting mad when we all know this game will be changing and adding.  It's alpha game development.   What you going to cry about bandits when the add them too?  Lol

[hiemfire]

55 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

The disadvantage of the auto turrets is that they draw a lot of power and they seem to react not only to screamers or zombies in general but also to animals. In previous Alphas, my auto turrets often killed wolves. I don't know how they react to rabbits, chickens or deer.

 

Do solar panels still cause lags or has this been fixed?

 

 

 

Gas generators, fuel sounds like it has gotten harder to come by and those do generate a fair bit of heat (based on output iirc). Solar panels did too, at a lower rate I think, back in 18 and iirc that got nixed.  Though they may have snuck it back in.

[Lasher]

Yet again - just another pathetic knee-jerk TFP response to problems of their own making.

There doesn't seem to be much thought or planning as to any of the effects of the systems that they introduce these days - it's just throw it at the wall - see what

sticks and if players start to make use of any mechanic find a way to hit it with the most utterly dumb nerf bat you can find.

The result? More knock on effects that require more idiotic "fixes"

I loved this game - I still do - but now I only love the A20-modded-to-hell version to fix all the mechanics that my group hate.

 

I don't really know what's wrong over at TFP - but something certainly is - I don't know if it's laziness, incompetence, bad planning, mis management or just a good old case of "weve already got the money so we just don't care" - maybe a combination of all of them.

As for thier attitude towards anyone who doesn't like it - well I think we've all seen quite clearly how that goes.

 

Good luck with your next game TFP - because if this is how you treat your audience I'd be surprised if anyone touches it with a barge pole.

[meganoth]

There are so many ways to deal with screamers:

1) Surround your base with 1-2 rows of spike traps, look over them and repair from time to time.

 

2) Make a bigger base and distribute the heat generating items over the range that heat is generated

 

3) Create multiple farms or separate your farms from the main base

 

The mechanic of "heat generation" is similar to activity measurement in other games, it simply is an abstration of how you are active in that area. And zombies visiting you in a zombie game should not be a surprise to you. Zombies are not Zombies-for-hire, you can't say "Hey, the next hour doesn't suit me, please come back another time, or wait, I'll visit you in that POI in a few hours". They game never worked that way and will never in vanilla.

 

[Old Crow]

23 minutes ago, minisith said:

Why should you have to play TFP's game?   All you lot getting mad when we all know this game will be changing and adding.  It's alpha game development.   What you going to cry about bandits when the add them too?  Lol

 

Why should you have to say stupid things?