Is there a plan to return to survival horror?

[Simplycasualgaming]

As the game stands, it has left the survival horror genere and is just an arcade shooter/Tower Defense game. Death isnt a penalty. Scavaging is a joke with perks/books and double looting PoIs. At no point after day one do I have to worry about survivng and I dont even need to build a base for forever.

[FranticDan]

You can play Hardcore Survivalist mod.
This mod keeps the vanilla feel, but nerfs everything to bring survival back into the game.
Less quality in loot.
Less harvest from blocks, including salvaging and butchering.
Traders are also heavily nerfed too, so no more online shopping getting everything you want!
You start infected and have to keep the infection under control, until you can find the cure, which can be found in the one custom T5 POI that is added for an end game challenge.

https://github.com/Frantic-Dan/Hardcore-Survivalist-Just-Die-Already

[Simplycasualgaming]

53 minutes ago, FranticDan said:

You can play Hardcore Survivalist mod.
This mod keeps the vanilla feel, but nerfs everything to bring survival back into the game.
Less quality in loot.
Less harvest from blocks, including salvaging and butchering.
Traders are also heavily nerfed too, so no more online shopping getting everything you want!
You start infected and have to keep the infection under control, until you can find the cure, which can be found in the one custom T5 POI that is added for an end game challenge.

https://github.com/Frantic-Dan/Hardcore-Survivalist-Just-Die-Already

Cool. I will look into it, just kinda feels bad that I need a mod to make a survival horror game actually be survival horror.

[Riamus]

The unfortunate thing for people who want hardcore survival aspects in the game is that such players are a very niche group.  If the game caters specifically to them, it will sell far fewer copies than if it caters to a wider group that isn't looking for a grind.  That isn't to say they can't make things more difficult, which they are trying to do with water scarcity, but I wouldn't expect too much change at this point when they are pushing for gold.

 

Personally, if I had to work too hard to find things, I probably wouldn't play the game.  Challenge is fine but having to try forever to find enough of XYZ isn't my idea of fun.  It's like games that make ammo so scarce that you basically can't use guns except in limited situations... I usually quit playing those game after a couple of hours or never play them.  Sure, it's realistic.  But fun?  No.  That's just my own preferences and others have different preferences.

 

As mentioned, you can use mods to get at least close to what you are looking for.  And you don't have to double loot a POI.  I know you can but it isn't a requirement.  It is extremely rare that I will do that regardless of the loot because it just feels too gamey.

[rateds2k]

10 hours ago, Simplycasualgaming said:

Cool. I will look into it, just kinda feels bad that I need a mod to make a survival horror game actually be survival horror.

Why does it feel bad? They set up this game to be very mod friendly so you can have almost any game play you want.  Wish all games were like this.  You get your survival horror feel and someone else gets another type of game play.

[warmer]

play dead is dead. Plenty of penalty there. Thats the only way I like to play. Makes every decision or encounter matter. water is going to be much harder to come by A21, so survival will certainly get harder.

 

There are so many settings available to increase difficulty. Too much loot, lower it. Too easy to kill zeds, increase difficulty. Dont need a base for a long time. Make horde night every night. 

 

The settings are there, and TFP has done a great job of giving us the flexibility built into the framework to achieve the desired game configuration.

[Simplycasualgaming]

5 hours ago, rateds2k said:

Why does it feel bad? They set up this game to be very mod friendly so you can have almost any game play you want.  Wish all games were like this.  You get your survival horror feel and someone else gets another type of game play.

Oh no, im glad the game is mod friendly. I just don't like that I need to mod the game to actually make it fit into its genre.

[Simplycasualgaming]

8 hours ago, Riamus said:

The unfortunate thing for people who want hardcore survival aspects in the game is that such players are a very niche group.  If the game caters specifically to them, it will sell far fewer copies than if it caters to a wider group that isn't looking for a grind.  That isn't to say they can't make things more difficult, which they are trying to do with water scarcity, but I wouldn't expect too much change at this point when they are pushing for gold.

 

Personally, if I had to work too hard to find things, I probably wouldn't play the game.  Challenge is fine but having to try forever to find enough of XYZ isn't my idea of fun.  It's like games that make ammo so scarce that you basically can't use guns except in limited situations... I usually quit playing those game after a couple of hours or never play them.  Sure, it's realistic.  But fun?  No.  That's just my own preferences and others have different preferences.

 

As mentioned, you can use mods to get at least close to what you are looking for.  And you don't have to double loot a POI.  I know you can but it isn't a requirement.  It is extremely rare that I will do that regardless of the loot because it just feels too gamey.

They don't have to make it super grindy, but eating glass shouldn't be a viable healing methoed.

[BFT2020]

13 hours ago, Simplycasualgaming said:

They don't have to make it super grindy, but eating glass shouldn't be a viable healing methoed.

If you are eating glass just to super heal, the issue lies with you my friend, not the game

[katarynna]

I know some people have trouble with this concept, but if you don't have fun double looting, eating glass, etc.... just don't do it.

 

I just logged off a bit ago from a new game that will be my last a20 game.

 

I had intended to find a remnant poi and restore/rebuild it for a base. However, just north of the starting forest trader was a beautiful lake with snowy mountain peaks across on the other side of the lake.  With such a beautiful spot, i decided i had to build my own base. 

 

I did one quest. I didn't spam quests, because i was in the mood to explore the town to see what was there, plus loot mailboxes/newspaper stands because i am going to focus archery. I did what i found fun and interesting with absolutely no concern what was optimal.

 

After exploring for a while, i focused more on resource gathering on the way to my lakeside base location. When i got there, i had enough materials to build a small starter base, get my campfire and forge down, make a cooking pot, and start making bacon and eggs.  

 

I do what i feel like doing and what makes sense in a "what do i need most now to survive in a zombie apocalypse" frame of mind, not in a "what can i do to min/max the game mechanics" frame of mind.

 

I don't double loot because i find it boring. I don't eat glass because suicide is never the choice for "what do i need most to survive". I learn the things that help me with my survival goals. If i have no current important goals, i choose to do what feels fun, interesting, or rewarding at that particular moment.

 

I have played since a15. I still find the vanilla game to be my favorite game. I play several of the overhaul mods and enjoy them too, but i play them for a change of pace, not because i find vanilla lacking.

 

Some people seem to intentionally do things that make the game no longer fun for them. I just don't do that.

[Ramethzer0]

On 5/17/2023 at 6:32 PM, Simplycasualgaming said:

As the game stands, it has left the survival horror genere and is just an arcade shooter/Tower Defense game. Death isnt a penalty. Scavaging is a joke with perks/books and double looting PoIs. At no point after day one do I have to worry about survivng and I dont even need to build a base for forever.

 

The great thing about this particular problem is that you have the power to change everything about it.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, katarynna said:

I know some people have trouble with this concept, but if you don't have fun double looting, eating glass, etc.... just don't do it.

 

I just logged off a bit ago from a new game that will be my last a20 game.

 

I had intended to find a remnant poi and restore/rebuild it for a base. However, just north of the starting forest trader was a beautiful lake with snowy mountain peaks across on the other side of the lake.  With such a beautiful spot, i decided i had to build my own base. 

 

I did one quest. I didn't spam quests, because i was in the mood to explore the town to see what was there, plus loot mailboxes/newspaper stands because i am going to focus archery. I did what i found fun and interesting with absolutely no concern what was optimal.

 

After exploring for a while, i focused more on resource gathering on the way to my lakeside base location. When i got there, i had enough materials to build a small starter base, get my campfire and forge down, make a cooking pot, and start making bacon and eggs.  

 

I do what i feel like doing and what makes sense in a "what do i need most now to survive in a zombie apocalypse" frame of mind, not in a "what can i do to min/max the game mechanics" frame of mind.

 

I don't double loot because i find it boring. I don't eat glass because suicide is never the choice for "what do i need most to survive". I learn the things that help me with my survival goals. If i have no current important goals, i choose to do what feels fun, interesting, or rewarding at that particular moment.

 

I have played since a15. I still find the vanilla game to be my favorite game. I play several of the overhaul mods and enjoy them too, but i play them for a change of pace, not because i find vanilla lacking.

 

Some people seem to intentionally do things that make the game no longer fun for them. I just don't do that.

That's a very well-written post.  I also feel that if a player is doing something they don't enjoy, that they should just not do it.  Many people think that because it's the most efficient option that they have no choice but to do it.  That simply isn't true.  If you enjoy playing that way, then go for it.  But if you don't enjoy playing that way, it really isn't difficult to not do it anymore.  Games are meant to have fun and if your playstyle isn't fun for you, then choose a playstyle that is instead.  Who really cares if it isn't the most efficient option?  This isn't something like many WoW guilds doing raids, where being a half second off in your timing will get you ridiculed and have everyone yelling at you.  This is a game where you can play for fun without any need to try and be efficient or min/max if you don't want to.  You can easily play the game without doing that and still do just fine in the game.  Understand that it is acceptable to not be efficient in a game if you find it more fun that way.  That doesn't mean you can't be efficient in some things while not being efficient in others.  If you like being efficient in base building and enjoy that but don't like it for double looting, then be efficient with your base building and don't double loot.  Play in a way that makes you happy.  And let others play the way they like.  If someone in your group likes double looting, then let them.  It doesn't mean you have to do so.  If they want to eat glass, then that's their choice.  You don't have to do it.

 

The game doesn't have to force you to play a certain way.  You can make choices for yourself. 

[doughphunghus]

21 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I did what i found fun and interesting with absolutely no concern what was optimal.

This is the way.  (Accidentally select-quoted the wrong person though. Sorry!)

Edited May 19, 2023 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[Javabean867]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:32 PM, Simplycasualgaming said:

As the game stands, it has left the survival horror genere and is just an arcade shooter/Tower Defense game. Death isnt a penalty. Scavaging is a joke with perks/books and double looting PoIs. At no point after day one do I have to worry about survivng and I dont even need to build a base for forever.

You can up the difficulty and you can reduce the amount of loot available in the game without any mods.  You can choose to play dead is dead.  You can choose to add what-ever self imposed rules you want to make the experience you want it to be.  Glock9(iirc) just recently ended a no crafting challenge that was surprisingly fun to watch.  Make the game that you want to play.

Do i think there should be more difficulty options for hardcore gamers? absolutely!  But in early access i don't see the point in adding it now, when there are more important things to focus on.

 

[superawesomemike]

19 hours ago, Simplycasualgaming said:

Oh no, im glad the game is mod friendly. I just don't like that I need to mod the game to actually make it fit into its genre.

 

Changing the vanilla settings allows you to up the difficulty, reduce the loot, increase the zombies, no mods needed. Can even randomise the frequency of the horde night, or set it to every night? What else would you say is missing from making it a survival horror? Or rather, what have they changed?

[Roland]

Fit its genre? SInce 7 Days to Die borrows elements from several genres to define its own hybrid style, I'm pretty sure that whatever it does is going to fit its genre. If you want to emphasize one particular genre like Survival Horror then you'll need to adjust your playstyle and/or change the settings and/or mod the game. It isn't sad. It's fantastic.

 

Survival Horror typically involves severe limits on ammo and weaponry and relies mostly on mood, setting, creepy sound effects and music, limited visibility, evasion, and puzzle solving. 

 

To me, pure survival horror would be doing a quest at Higashi Tower at night with a handheld flashlight and no weapons and the settings put to maximum difficulty so that zombie HP is too high for you to be able to actually kill them. They could be set to walk at night or perhaps jog but you would need to constantly run and evade, shut doors behind you, build barricades, get knockdowns with your fists to buy yourself time as you loot and try to accomplish the quest with relentless zombies constantly on your tail. Will you get cornered? Will something jump out unexpectedly from the darkness? That is what adds to the suspense. That would be closest to classic survival horror but I'm glad the game isn't purely defined by that. I can try doing it as a challenge or to get that survival horror feeling but then the next time I can go in with plenty of ammo and do it more like an arcade shooter or I can go in the next time and try to stealth as much as possible.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[bobrpggamer]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:49 AM, Riamus said:

The unfortunate thing for people who want hardcore survival aspects in the game is that such players are a very niche group.  If the game caters specifically to them, it will sell far fewer copies than if it caters to a wider group that isn't looking for a grind.  That isn't to say they can't make things more difficult, which they are trying to do with water scarcity, but I wouldn't expect too much change at this point when they are pushing for gold.

 

Personally, if I had to work too hard to find things, I probably wouldn't play the game.  Challenge is fine but having to try forever to find enough of XYZ isn't my idea of fun.  It's like games that make ammo so scarce that you basically can't use guns except in limited situations... I usually quit playing those game after a couple of hours or never play them.  Sure, it's realistic.  But fun?  No.  That's just my own preferences and others have different preferences.

 

As mentioned, you can use mods to get at least close to what you are looking for.  And you don't have to double loot a POI.  I know you can but it isn't a requirement.  It is extremely rare that I will do that regardless of the loot because it just feels too gamey.

This reminds me of a rock radio station that stated, "yeah, we play "Spirit of the Radio" or "Tom Sawyer" from Rush because if we constantly played "By-Tor And The Snow Dog" or "The Trees" by Rush we would lose over half of our listeners". So yeah its a fine line to please as many as you can or to cater to the few. Realistically most developers will appeal to the many or they may lose a lot of players.

 

Then again a game that has a great modding community can make the game appeal to the few.

 

I prefer fun over realism myself. If you think about realism you would have to take into consideration the ridiculous amount of Iron, Wood and stone a single person could carry. So you have a backpack that has 3 guns, 2 clips, 2 med kits and some food an water and drive the dump truck to the site where you are mining ore, collecting wood and stone and still need to make 10 trips with your dump truck. That would be realistic as far as carrying tons, literally tons of resources in your backpack. Games like S.T.A.L.K.E.R. have very limited carry capacity in your backpack to make the game less ridiculous.

Edited May 20, 2023 by bobrpggamer (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

One of my wishes before the game goes gold is that they add back more "harsh" weather survival.

I really liked the fact that clothing and shelter were actually important to survive and eventually thrive.

[SnowDog1942]

On 5/17/2023 at 7:32 PM, Simplycasualgaming said:

As the game stands, it has left the survival horror genere and is just an arcade shooter/Tower Defense game. Death isnt a penalty. Scavaging is a joke with perks/books and double looting PoIs. At no point after day one do I have to worry about survivng and I dont even need to build a base for forever.

Just play with 1 life on hardest settings.

[rapidfirekitten]

The thing that I enjoy the most about 7D2D is that we can adjust the settings to decide just how much of a PITA we want things to be. I'd love to see more boss-like encounters and stuff, but I'm also okay with mods being away to add these things because there's just something really cool about seeing what the community comes up with.

 

BE THE CHANGE etc etc etc.

[4sheetzngeegles]

Part of what Roland posted points to the perspective of this game's evolution. He mentioned genre
and the inclusion of various elements. This in turn Created a Hybrid-Genre. Hybrid vigor, even in nature means
flowing, adapting, and selecting the best choices for survival. If you had the pleasure of playing each
alpha from 1 to now, it would be easier to see the progression from then to now. I'm not referring to the
graphics, ai, those progress with technology and experience. The actual game play has always centered on
survival "Your way" "Your choice" well maybe except for the Mole bases. Are all of the choices the same anyone
else would have made probably not, but TFP, as the genre, audience, staff, and tech changed so to did aspects
of the game.

 

A real world thought, If you had an idea, to build what you thought was the most nearly perfect home,
and you had a revolving array of friends, input, and stimuli, for ten years. That meaning you built your
dream home over a period of ten years. Truthfully, ask yourself, But only answer in private. Would the original
foundation laid home that you laid plans for, if it were a 60' x 60' home on a ten acre lot, be the same idea
and ideal for you today as when first conceived?

 

Would you still be satisfied with that 25" tv, a pentium 2 processor, basic cable, no streaming services,
and even the furniture, non-spring foam top wasn't a thing then, that was first added to the list to purchase?

Now add the plumbing issues that Will arise, hvac/insulation requirements raised per year to stay relevant, and
the potential resale value. Your journey to build your dream home, would progress and advance as you do. Over
the course of time pricing, availability, relativity, desire, and comfort ideas would change. This would necessitate
adaptation to the original plan.

 

The thought is a bit abstract but can be applied to the game as well.

 

An PimpDream idea: Since a (volume, not all) of the QOL things requested are subtle variances that can be controlled by
the xml files. QOL is my thought regarding personal preferences, ranging from weather to famine to danger.

A front end tick box, based off of a batch file, and the various config files, could allow each person to
contour the game closer to their ideal. It could be modded that way, but Not By Me.

 

Your house definitely would not look like mine. But I definitely like visiting their home more than most others.

[Dark Wun]

I kind of see the OP's points and I think there's something the devs could do relatively easily and cheaply:

 

Introduce a "food scarcity" game setting:

 

Setting this to high scarcity would reduce the amount of food items found in loot and also the number of game animals in the world.

 

The OP could then also significantly reduce the horde night settings, e.g., longer time between blood moons, etc. and presto, you've got more of a survival game.

 

I'm sure there's a few other similar settings that could help achieve this too.

 

 

[Riamus]

I think everyone would agree that food is far too easy to come by.  Considering they've made changes to water for A21, I would not be surprised to see them make a similar change to food before gold.  I mean, in my current game with one other player, we do not hunt and although I can grow crops, I've only harvested twice because there just has never been any reason to.  We are getting so much food just from questing that there's never any shortage.  Yes, it was a little harder in the first few days or maybe week but after that it wasn't ever an issue.  Other games haven't given us so much food, so this was just RNG "luck".  Even in the other games, food isn't really that difficult.  And not at all once you start farming.  And I never hunt except if I really need animal fat and don't end up with enough just from being attacked by wolves and boars and such.

[Dark Wun]

yeah, I forgot about traders as a source of food too. They could also make a slider for that too, or make the price ridiculously expensive (kind of what you'd expect in post-apocalyptic world).

 

I'm really thinking they could pretty easily create "survival game" mode quite easily. Just incorporate a quick setting to make food much more scarce in containers, quest rewards, traders, less game animals. I'm thinking less ammo too. Horde nights would still be a thing, but less of a tower game like the OP mentioned, maybe by substantially reducing the number of zombies, which grows way too fast btw.  I've always felt the first 5-6 days are the best days when you don't have anything and it's really that survival feeling - trying to get that first cook pot.

 

This would only be an optional game mode, other players could still play vanilla settings. How hard would this be to code in, really.

[Sozia]

I and two others are currently playing a game with no mods but we did change the settings some.  We started with loot set to 75 percent. It does drastically lower the amount of loot you get.   Food was a struggle. We do set it to insane setting but imo that doesn't make the game much harder. We maxed out the amount we get on horde night and increased the hordes to every 4 nights.  We increased our experience to 150 percent though.  It gave us a chance to try some skills that we might not have tried otherwise.   There really are a lot of settings that are fun to mess with, I think.  For us, changing the loot setting was the hardest to adjust to.  The other 'fun' way to make the game a bit of a rougher start is just change what biome you are start your base in.   That certainly can make things different.  - Hopefully, everyone finds the settings that suit them best.  - cheers.