Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[thecapotek]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:36 AM, Jost Amman said:

No, you're right... currently we have no real goal/story but the "goal" to stay alive.

 

Problem is, the story is the last one that can be added, since you can only have a story after you add NPCs (not only traders), you can only have a story after you add Bandits (they're working on the first iteration right now) and finally you can add a story only after all the game mechanics are where the devs think they should be.

 

An educated guess would be at least two more years of development before we can see any of that.

I don't think the Devs know what they actually want to see. The game mechanics have been changed many times only to be reverted back or changed again, with no clear long-term goal. Instead of working on the game as a whole, they developed this project in pieces. Why did they wait so many years before trying to add a goal to the game (bandits and NPCS as you mentioned)? It's not like 7TDT was released yesterday, it's been out for a *long* time and they never bothered to add a real meaning to the gameplay.
The game wasn't polished then and it still isn't now so it's not even that.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, thecapotek said:

I don't think the Devs know what they actually want to see. The game mechanics have been changed many times only to be reverted back or changed again, with no clear long-term goal. Instead of working on the game as a whole, they developed this project in pieces. Why did they wait so many years before trying to add a goal to the game (bandits and NPCS as you mentioned)? It's not like 7TDT was released yesterday, it's been out for a *long* time and they never bothered to add a real meaning to the gameplay.
The game wasn't polished then and it still isn't now so it's not even that.

 

When a car company designs a car, many parts get reworked and adapted multiple times (if they can't be just taken from an older model and fit perfectly). The goal is largely known from day one, for example it should be a sports car with a top speed of 250, removable top cover, and as good a road holding as possible.

 

But the details are sketchy. What suspension to use could change depending on the changing weight of the car. Some features, like the power of the electrical system possibly, may be decided only at the last stretch of development when the rest of the car is almost finished and the drainage of all systems is known.

 

We really didn't have a car analogy in the forum for a long time, it was high time for it 😁

 

To get back to games, it actually is a method for games in open development to add the story only on the last stretch of development or even exclude it from EA to have a "fresh" story at release.

 

Were bandits touched too late? They already had implemented bandits before A16, but they were not satisfied with them (you can see those bandits in some mods for A16). Then they seemed to have seen other problems that needed their attention before bandits. And I think it was at that time that they hired a new programmer (Fataal) to rework the AI and he has been on that for a good part of his time.

 

Someone correct me if I'm wrong on that timeline, but I don't see where they could have changed this and still be where they are now with the game. The AI takes a lot of time to do and meanwhile other designers/programmers won't just sit around, they'll develop their part of the game.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[meganoth]

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Okay - every weapon type have their own perk right? you have

3 spears

3 bats ( okay we can say 4 if you count candy)

3 knifes ( 4 again candy) but in this same time it is tool

3 wraps

3 sledgehammers

2 batons + 2 turrets

 

4 pistols + smg

5 MG

4 shotguns

4 rifles

 

3 bows and 2 crossbow

 

rocket launcher, 4 "granades" and 5 mines

 

So almost every category have 3-5 weapons. So thats why they add batons into robotic inventor because this category would have only 2 weapons.  So if they would add for example 10 gun for each category ( it woudn't be so hard) this would make melee underdeweloped right? 

 

Underdeveloped seems the wrong term for that. If they add a new higher tier to the weapons they should add one to all current categories so that no attribute feels capped in end game. But adding a single new weapons category is no principal problem as can be seen by Perception which has 3. Or just a side weapon like pistols have smg+vulture in the top tier.

 

Naturally they don't want to overstuff any attribute with weapons and so make it undisputed first choice in everything, but the balance is mainly adjusted between attributes. So if every attribute would get a new gun category I don't think they would dismiss it because of some balance between melee and ranged.

 

But I have heard them say that they don't want to clutter the game with superficially different looking but almost identical stuff. So they didn't add a Walter P225 and a Glock to pistols because the pistol IS a P225 and a Glock rolled into the one archetype. Having a glock that acts practically the same and has plus or minus 2 damage would be superfluous for them.

 

So (depending on me not rephrashing them wrong) their design goals clash with your desires and it is unlikely this game and even their new games will have different design goals. Not impossible but unlikely. 

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

We have 6 quality steps but... this nothing diffrent between them that stats and mods you still you have 3-5 weapons for category only.

If diffent qualty would mean diffrent model  for example

1. rusty junk. 2. junk but in better condition 3. looking old 4. good condition 5. fabric new 6. custom one. I woudn't complain because it would be visual diffrences between them.

So this not i want straight shooter but i want too see more visual diffrent stuff - i don't care if this would be 5 MP5 looking diffrent or 5 diffrent smg or 3 bats looking diffent.

 

TFP seem not to want 5 different MP5 with identical stats. And I wouldn't care for them either. Some players do, some don't.

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

You wrote about cod but it just halve true - weapons are not only "gameplay" choice but aestetic too - that's why there is explanation about diffrent guns from diffrent time periods on maps. I undestand why there is small number of weapons in l4d2. But in games like conan exile number of weapons are pretty big because it's not only gameplay but "world building" element too - you know diffrents old lost empires had diffent types of swords etc. 

 

I know aesthetics is important to you. But aesthetics in games costs a lot of money. An independent game developer can save a lot of money here while some AAA games will just operate on the premise "More is always better". 

Just look at the announcement of typical open world games where they always brag about the square miles of terrain you can visit as if that was a quality measure. While many of those square miles are empty or filled with procedurally generated fluff. And mostly that works well because their target audience are gamers who value that fluff.

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

So if 7DTD had for example ww2 setting and was set on tropical island - i woudn't complain about few guns only. Or even in modern France or UK. But 7dtd is set in USA in "something like texas" state - so number of guns should be pretty big. So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns

 

That last sentence is totally out of the blue and makes an inference that you never substantiated and gave a reason for. So I'll just say "No" with about as much argument as you could bring to the table. 

 

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

1. Yep, i hope so for that. Because i have mental blockade to play in 7dtd - why to check another POI if you find this same 1 eye zombie woman few times? this is soo frustrating. Btw more zombie spawning isn't such big deal for me like zombie variants - if there would be even more zombie this would be even more looking like clone festival. 

 

Some other players have OCD, some have phobias, some just don't like impolite traders. I think there even have been players who fear zombies 😉. It is good that TFP doesn't listen to every single impairment or weakness of players or the game would be practically empty. What you call mental blockade is not on the same level as a phobia. You can decide to ignore it or find a different game, you have that choice.

 

18 hours ago, Matt115 said:

That's why cod outbreak  and DL2 are soo dead games  for me.  because it's not fun or comfortable for me to play in this games.  RE2 had a lot of zombie models ( even typical police zombie have a lot of variants ) , no more room in hell too ( as for 2010 standards) , l4d2 , NZA4 (well this is rly boring game,  just "one shot game" but it can be play comfortable ) and i can play in this game without problems.

 

while i was  playing in DL2 i had feeling like " i kill this zombie room before yeah, whatever i'm done)

So that's why i'm soo frustrated about 7dtd. LBL - whatever , guns models? <sigh>..... fine, drones? ok. This same zombie over and over? i'm out

 

I undestand. this is their first game so they learn how to do a lot of things. But zombies are so underdeveloped. I wanted to "fix " this problem by using mods but...  at least only one modlet was good because it mixed few enemy mods and add hm... vanilia style zombies. But now after add "HD" models this models don't suit unfortunatly.

 

That's why i have hope for mods with "vanilia style" or DLC. 

But if there won't be such mods or DLC only option for me is just waiting for another 7DTD game.  

Maybe i was starting too many topic and comments about that but this something that change a lot at least for me

 

 

2. Well  not rly - sometimes more is too much - TEW2 is good example about that. Number category is fine just more types of weapons in every category to be increased

 

 

[thecapotek]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

When a car company designs a car, many parts get reworked and adapted multiple times (if they can't be just taken from an older model and fit perfectly). The goal is largely known from day one, for example it should be a sports car with a top speed of 250, removable top cover, and as good a road holding as possible.

 

But the details are sketchy. What suspension to use could change depending on the changing weight of the car. Some features, like the power of the electrical system possibly, may be decided only at the last stretch of development when the rest of the car is almost finished and the drainage of all systems is known.

During all this time, though, the public doesn't actually get to drive the car until it's ready. This didn't happen with 7DTD. So the metaphor is wrong.

I never started farming or crafting weapons/vehicles just because there's no reason to. The game is fun when you start playing since there is a pseudo-goal to stay alive trough the first nights. Then what?

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, thecapotek said:

During all this time, though, the public doesn't actually get to drive the car until it's ready. This didn't happen with 7DTD. So the metaphor is wrong.

 

Mmmh, but what would happen if that car developer let the public in for regular test drives? Sure, they would need to make sure it is safe and the car would actually run. But would they change development completely just for those public test drives? Would they only add parts that are then final and never allowed to change? Would they keep the preliminary overpowered electrical system just because the public has seen that system already?

 

You can play the game and follow development if you want and you TFP gets some advantages out of that deal too, no question. But that's it. Look up what steam promises you in that deal. There isn't anything about change not happening, a guaranteed release plan with dates to fix.

 

 

3 hours ago, thecapotek said:

I never started farming or crafting weapons/vehicles just because there's no reason to. The game is fun when you start playing since there is a pseudo-goal to stay alive trough the first nights. Then what?

 

At the moment the goal is to survive until you have the best weapons and a base that can withstand the strongest horde. Look at all the players with hundreds to thousands of hours in the game. Not everyone needs a set goal. I also would suggest looking at co-op multiplayer with a few friends, this greatly increases the fun of surviving without goal.

 

TFP seems to plan to release the game in about two years (2 more alphas and a short beta). In the release version there should be bandits and an actual end goal of conquering one or both of two factions (the Duke and the White River coalition) in the game. Nothing guaranteed but this seems to be the plan as far as it is known to us players.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Underdeveloped seems the wrong term for that. If they add a new higher tier to the weapons they should add one to all current categories so that no attribute feels capped in end game. But adding a single new weapons category is no principal problem as can be seen by Perception which has 3. Or just a side weapon like pistols have smg+vulture in the top tier.

 

Naturally they don't want to overstuff any attribute with weapons and so make it undisputed first choice in everything, but the balance is mainly adjusted between attributes. So if every attribute would get a new gun category I don't think they would dismiss it because of some balance between melee and ranged.

 

But I have heard them say that they don't want to clutter the game with superficially different looking but almost identical stuff. So they didn't add a Walter P225 and a Glock to pistols because the pistol IS a P225 and a Glock rolled into the one archetype. Having a glock that acts practically the same and has plus or minus 2 damage would be superfluous for them.

 

So (depending on me not rephrashing them wrong) their design goals clash with your desires and it is unlikely this game and even their new games will have different design goals. Not impossible but unlikely. 

 

 

 

Well but problems is what to add to melee weapons too looks good too - medieval spear for spears? fine but what about sledgehammer? warhammer? not rly because it would looks too " 90's" USA post apo setting.  But what can be do a bat? well again reduce option. In theory blades can get katana or diffrent sword but if i understand using matchete to rip off skin that katan could looks a little bit strange.

 

But even without this  aestetic problem - hm another category can't be in INT for sure because INT is prety strong category.

 

Yep Glocks and Walter looks similiar that's true but - you can put C96 pistol, duck feet gun ,  i don't know how this even translate but this pistol is partisant modifcation of... mosin nagant ( not nagant revelver but rifle) into bolt action pistol.  Smg is even easier - you can put P90 or  PPSH-41 - they can works much more diffrent that mp5.

For Assult rifle is hard to add something "unsual" because it's very universal guns.

Rifle - even Anti tank rifle can be big change

Shotguns are problems that's true.

 

Well we will see what they will add in their next game

 

 

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

TFP seem not to want 5 different MP5 with identical stats. And I wouldn't care for them either. Some players do, some don't.

 

I mean  5 diffrent MP5 with diffrents stats. 1 quality - rust -  5 quality  fabric new

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

I know aesthetics is important to you. But aesthetics in games costs a lot of money. An independent game developer can save a lot of money here while some AAA games will just operate on the premise "More is always better". 

Just look at the announcement of typical open world games where they always brag about the square miles of terrain you can visit as if that was a quality measure. While many of those square miles are empty or filled with procedurally generated fluff. And mostly that works well because their target audience are gamers who value that fluff.

 

 

 

 

Well you remind me a joke -

Well - this is even problem in big games - Cod big maps looks so procedurally generated so hm... i think number of weapons, enemies, types of food works good too. So i agree totaly about square miles but damn... i remember this good biding of issac   "100+ enemies, with new designs "  . So i would see that they will add 30 more zombie types in updates i would be probably so happy as hell. Honestly  empty maps can be even much better that "handmade" map if this map is made with style - mad max is so empty and this is sooo good.  

 

So yes number are important but not only maps - FC talk a lot of about maps but number of types of enemies is low that's boring - and it's not only my opinion but  reviewers too. Medieval dynasty is informating about buildings tool etc but nothing about map. Conan exile was promted by... well conan settings ( probably without this , this game would be less succesful) , the forest about was lore etc. 

 

So aestetic can sell a game even if game is medicore - i think Control sold good just because umbrella academy S2, guardians of time and SCP have similiar aestetic. 

 

Deep rock Galaxy earn a lot because their aestetic - this space dwarf setting perfect suit here + ... warhmmer 40K squats popularity. 

Valheim is hm.... good because is so beatiful. it is worthy to buy this game to see sky at night on small island. But hm.... they a little bit broken map generator ( maps looks strange) but still is soo beatiful

 

So i think  7DTD 2 can have rly good aestetic. Because they will have more time for this ( well they spend a lot of time just fixing RWG).  Maybe even a little bit darker.

Well maybe they will someday make WD game 😛 

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

That last sentence is totally out of the blue and makes an inference that you never substantiated and gave a reason for. So I'll just say "No" with about as much argument as you could bring to the table. 

This very logical -  if you think about japan-usa ww2 battle , you will think about guns like  about thompson, Type 100 , arisaka , garand etc. so STG44 will not suit here. If you set game in France you will probably add mostly Nato/ hunting rifle . In stalker you have CCP/Nato guns. in Days gone or Contagion you have everything. Why? because people in USA collect a lot of diffrent guns and this explain why you have PPSH in Days gone or M1 garand in contagion. In cod on zombie you have  explanation about Futuristic gun during WW1 battle -  well magic ( because well.. mystery box is just magic box ). I love one detail from L4D2 - so military cars use dessert camo - why? because they will probably trasported fast back to USA.  So guns are not only gameplay but aestetic too.  

 

9 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Some other players have OCD, some have phobias, some just don't like impolite traders. I think there even have been players who fear zombies 😉. It is good that TFP doesn't listen to every single impairment or weakness of players or the game would be practically empty. What you call mental blockade is not on the same level as a phobia. You can decide to ignore it or find a different game, you have that choice.

 

 

Well i still have hope for zombie mods. Well  it's not phobia that's true. ( only phobia that i have  is big problem with water - honestly that's why i hate so much DF demon= octpus it is so bad because it remind me sea - one time i almost drowned when i was learning to swim so now sea is big nope for me).

Well when i play with someone at least this isn't such big deal because i'm focused on talking etc that on "clones" .  

Little bit off top but - skyrim was soo boring for me after some time but after add immersive creature mod it became rly good game - 100 more enemies make this game much better because you can meet much more enemies, I used few compatibility mods with this one and  it was very good.

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

This very logical -  if you think about japan-usa ww2 battle , you will think about guns like  about thompson, Type 100 , arisaka , garand etc. so STG44 will not suit here. If you set game in France you will probably add mostly Nato/ hunting rifle . In stalker you have CCP/Nato guns. in Days gone or Contagion you have everything. Why? because people in USA collect a lot of diffrent guns and this explain why you have PPSH in Days gone or M1 garand in contagion. In cod on zombie you have  explanation about Futuristic gun during WW1 battle -  well magic ( because well.. mystery box is just magic box ). I love one detail from L4D2 - so military cars use dessert camo - why? because they will probably trasported fast back to USA.  So guns are not only gameplay but aestetic too.  

 

What has this to do with LBD?

 

May I remind you that you said "So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns "

 

Edited July 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

What has this to do with LBD?

 

May I remind you that you said "So LBD would suit better if there would be bigger guns "

 

now i see it should be more guns not bigger guns , my mistake. But bigger guns can be use too 

For example how this could work:

1. melee weapons category  - warrior path - faster swining lesse stamina use

2. bows and crossbows with granades - saboter - faster reload better range

3. pistols ,  batons and stunner - cop longer durability less recoil quicker reload , longer stun

4. shotguns, smg - secret agent  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

5. Assult guns and sniper rifle - heavy duty  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

6. Running jumping swiming - sportman - less stamina use, more stamina, running faster etc

7. sneak - hitman - quieter, faster movment on stealth etc

8. taking hits, using armor, healing "negative bonuses" , eating - survivor - more Hp, quicker healing, less chance for bleeding etc

9.looting scavenging, quests, trade - man of wastelands - better loot and faster looting, scavenging, better prices and prizes

9.Rocket laucher , flamethower, mortal , turrets - engineer - longer durability, quicker repair , longer range etc

 

Crafting - books and milestones ( 10 meals mean another top chef tier)

 

So - melee weapons and bows are limited because... well there is small pool for new bats etc right?

 

Let's say that number of zombie will be x3 bigger with new variants like weak ones. 

So melee weapons and bows would be mostly for weak or single zombies. But still worthy to use because lack of bullets, guns durabillty , loud + stealth.

 

So you have 9mm bullets ? good they are common so use it. typical stuff

shotgun shells are rarer so you have to take care for that but you can "learn" faster that by using melee weapon.

So if you use for example 50% of time melee and bows, 30% pistols, 10% shotguns and 10% assult guns your level of your skills will be similiar in this categories. So - no more thinking " i should make shotguns slugs because i put 2 points in shotguns". This  time you have to change your guns not because perks but ammo. 

 

So that's  why can be more guns in each category - let say :

 secret agent Tier 2 - you can have slow but with good recoil MP5 or fast with bad recoil PPSH41, in Tier 3 - MP7 or P90 both similiar function but more dmg that tier before . 

secret agent Tier 2 - powerful chrome shotgun with slow reload but with big dmg and big area of dmg or you can use low dmg but automatic ( you can stun zombie easy) shotgun , Tier 3 similiar thing but more dmg that lower tier and dunno bigger area of damage for powerfull shotgun and bigger mags for automatic shotgun

 

heavy duty - tier 2 Gail - cheaper , big durability  good recoil , AK - more expensive less durability but bigger dmg and more chance for critical shots etc

 

This is example how this could looks like. This mean more works because more models of weapons but... sequel should be bigger right?
 

 

 

 

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

now i see it should be more guns not bigger guns , my mistake. But bigger guns can be use too 

For example how this could work:

1. melee weapons category  - warrior path - faster swining lesse stamina use

2. bows and crossbows with granades - saboter - faster reload better range

3. pistols ,  batons and stunner - cop longer durability less recoil quicker reload , longer stun

4. shotguns, smg - secret agent  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

5. Assult guns and sniper rifle - heavy duty  longer durability less recoil quicker reload

6. Running jumping swiming - sportman - less stamina use, more stamina, running faster etc

7. sneak - hitman - quieter, faster movment on stealth etc

8. taking hits, using armor, healing "negative bonuses" , eating - survivor - more Hp, quicker healing, less chance for bleeding etc

9.looting scavenging, quests, trade - man of wastelands - better loot and faster looting, scavenging, better prices and prizes

9.Rocket laucher , flamethower, mortal , turrets - engineer - longer durability, quicker repair , longer range etc

 

Crafting - books and milestones ( 10 meals mean another top chef tier)

 

So - melee weapons and bows are limited because... well there is small pool for new bats etc right?

 

Let's say that number of zombie will be x3 bigger with new variants like weak ones. 

So melee weapons and bows would be mostly for weak or single zombies. But still worthy to use because lack of bullets, guns durabillty , loud + stealth.

 

So you have 9mm bullets ? good they are common so use it. typical stuff

shotgun shells are rarer so you have to take care for that but you can "learn" faster that by using melee weapon.

So if you use for example 50% of time melee and bows, 30% pistols, 10% shotguns and 10% assult guns your level of your skills will be similiar in this categories. So - no more thinking " i should make shotguns slugs because i put 2 points in shotguns". This  time you have to change your guns not because perks but ammo. 

 

So that's  why can be more guns in each category - let say :

 secret agent Tier 2 - you can have slow but with good recoil MP5 or fast with bad recoil PPSH41, in Tier 3 - MP7 or P90 both similiar function but more dmg that tier before . 

secret agent Tier 2 - powerful chrome shotgun with slow reload but with big dmg and big area of dmg or you can use low dmg but automatic ( you can stun zombie easy) shotgun , Tier 3 similiar thing but more dmg that lower tier and dunno bigger area of damage for powerfull shotgun and bigger mags for automatic shotgun

 

heavy duty - tier 2 Gail - cheaper , big durability  good recoil , AK - more expensive less durability but bigger dmg and more chance for critical shots etc

 

This is example how this could looks like. This mean more works because more models of weapons but... sequel should be bigger right?
 

 

 

 

 

And it also looks exactly like a typical shooter works. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it removes originality from the game. And you rely only on scarcity of ammo for this and you didn't solve the problem how to make this happen.

 

Ammo is not scarce because of crafting, mining and lots of other sources. And it is the scarcity of ammo that makes your design work, NOT LBD. A perk system in a game where ammo were really scarce so that you need to use all weapons would work almost exactly. With some changes to the current perk system the result for players would even be identical.

 

But this isn't a shooter and I dare to predict that any game with mining and crafting from TFP will surely not follow your model as it is almost impossible to constrict the player into such a narrow path of advancement without removing many of the liberties the current game has.

 

The current perk system would have no problem at all with a "slow but with good recoil MP5" and a "fast with bad recoil PPSH41" available together. It isn't the perk system that prevents those weapons, it is a decision of TFP that either they don't want many similar weapons or that it isn't worth their effort, i.e. they have better uses for their development time aka other priorities

 

(By the way, the reason they add weapons that don't look exactly like a real counterpart (for example a PPSH41) might be because they probably would have to pay the weapons company royalties to have that weapon in the game, at least for weapons new enough so their appearance is still intellectual property. But that has nothing to do with the argument, just a side note).

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[enkephalin07]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

(By the way, the reason they add weapons that don't look exactly like a real counterpart (for example a PPSH41) might be because they probably would have to pay the weapons company royalties to have that weapon in the game, at least for weapons new enough so their appearance is still intellectual property. But that has nothing to do with the argument, just a side note).

A successful enough game could surely get a product placement deal, though I'm unsure what the industry practice is with regard to video game placement. I agree with you that it's not really necessary to have a variety of brand names of functionally the same weapon, and it's something an interested modder could spend their time on rather than the development team.

[Matt115]

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

And it also looks exactly like a typical shooter works. That isn't necessarily a bad thing. But it removes originality from the game. And you rely only on scarcity of ammo for this and you didn't solve the problem how to make this happen.

 

Well typical shooter is "rich " in bullets'' - Cod , bordelands etc. 

Only shooter "well know" ( i think nobody remember cryostasis) with something like that was RE and TEW. Well... this hard to call Deep Rock Galactic typical shooter. But i don't inspire here with shooters but... The walkind dead, day of living dead movies and ...( this will be shock) mad max etc. Well this movies are soo good - and lack of ammo is usual problem. In mad max you have sometimes bullets but most time you have to use or fists or  use your car as ram. This solve this problem - now if you have 4 points in shotgun you will probably make shotgun slugs because it will be the best effective option. Here - this will depends on what do you need - that's why i suggest and weaker and armored zombie into 7dtd 2 - you want to go to cementary - SMG bullets because your rifle will be too slow, you want to visit military minefiled - take a heavy sniper rifle to deal with armored minesweaper zombie.

 

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

 

Ammo is not scarce because of crafting, mining and lots of other sources. And it is the scarcity of ammo that makes your design work, NOT LBD. A perk system in a game where ammo were really scarce so that you need to use all weapons would work almost exactly. With some changes to the current perk system the result for players would even be identical.

 

 

 Well some changes... probably yes. If  dmg and critical bonuses of perks be removed  - just bigger durability etc. i can agree about that.

Not even exactly - this is connected with zombie types  too - Total war games are good example that if you change 1 think you can totaly change diffrent things not connected directly with this.

But if there is dmg bonuses - you have to use only type of guns to save resources probably the most universal one. But if there would be LBD - you will use guns depending what you want to do - you want to loot cementary? you have to make smg bullets etc. So depending what you will do the most you will be better at this - if you deal a lot of weak but fast enemies you can do this fast but armored zombie can be big problem for this.

 

But All crafting in my opinion should  be LBL + milestones - if you want you can look for "universal" bookshelfs , specialistic bookshelfs ( you want to make a car ? loot car factory and in safe you can find schematic) + something like " if you make 10 grilled steaks you can now make stake and potato meal" 

Farming - totaly not connected with perks

 

8 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The current perk system would have no problem at all with a "slow but with good recoil MP5" and a "fast with bad recoil PPSH41" available together. It isn't the perk system that prevents those weapons, it is a decision of TFP that either they don't want many similar weapons or that it isn't worth their effort, i.e. they have better uses for their development time aka other priorities

 

(By the way, the reason they add weapons that don't look exactly like a real counterpart (for example a PPSH41) might be because they probably would have to pay the weapons company royalties to have that weapon in the game, at least for weapons new enough so their appearance is still intellectual property. But that has nothing to do with the argument, just a side note).

 

is problem because dmg , critical bonuses - probably big enough bonus could made low dmg gun  good enough to be universal. IF this would be only reload durability etc it's true. Well i understand about their priorities so that's more about  how this could work in 7DTD 2/next game situation not in 7DTD1

 

To this note - i give this PPSH41 as example because  well is famouse and most players know how this guns  works usually in games - big magasine, bad accuracy.

So ofc this would be something diffrent in game but it's the  best way to describe something - if i give example from diffrents games or movies i do this to describe something as best as possible without overcomplicated describtion. if i write " something like l4d2's splitter"  i'm trying to give to most universal example but   i don't mean copy something - this can be big fat zombie who create infected pool after dead. Btw i think most WW2  guns - arisaka , 98K, thompson etc are free to use now and probably most of CCCP guns

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Well typical shooter is "rich " in bullets'' - Cod , bordelands etc. 

 

I was reminded of classic shooters, for example the Doom series. The ammo is handplaced and usually not enough so that you can't just use one gun

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Only shooter "well know" ( i think nobody remember cryostasis) with something like that was RE and TEW. Well... this hard to call Deep Rock Galactic typical shooter. But i don't inspire here with shooters but... The walkind dead, day of living dead movies and ...( this will be shock) mad max etc. Well this movies are soo good - and lack of ammo is usual problem. In mad max you have sometimes bullets but most time you have to use or fists or  use your car as ram. This solve this problem - now if you have 4 points in shotgun you will probably make shotgun slugs because it will be the best effective option. Here - this will depends on what do you need - that's why i suggest and weaker and armored zombie into 7dtd 2 - you want to go to cementary - SMG bullets because your rifle will be too slow, you want to visit military minefiled - take a heavy sniper rifle to deal with armored minesweaper zombie.

 

No. With unlimited ammo and LBD you are pushed to using one gun as much as possible because the more you use it the better you are in it.

 

If you want people to use different weapons the best way is scarcity of ammo AND no advancement at all except if it advances all guns the same (in other words advances the characters abilities instead of learning to use specific weapons).

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

 Well some changes... probably yes. If  dmg and critical bonuses of perks be removed  - just bigger durability etc. i can agree about that.

 

I think you might not know that for example critical bonuses from perks are adjusted for the shooting speed of weapons. So an SMG has less critical bonus per shot than a magnum with the same perks.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

Not even exactly - this is connected with zombie types  too - Total war games are good example that if you change 1 think you can totaly change diffrent things not connected directly with this.

But if there is dmg bonuses - you have to use only type of guns to save resources probably the most universal one. But if there would be LBD - you will use guns depending what you want to do - you want to loot cementary? you have to make smg bullets etc. So depending what you will do the most you will be better at this - if you deal a lot of weak but fast enemies you can do this fast but armored zombie can be big problem for this.

 

Why? If ammo is unlimited in an LBD system I would use the universal gun and always that one because the more I use it the better I get with it. If I use two guns instead, both would be only half as much advanced as that single one.

With a perk system on the other hand you could use speciality guns on occasions even if that would not advance your main gun. You would still get the xp to advance your main gun.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

But All crafting in my opinion should  be LBL + milestones - if you want you can look for "universal" bookshelfs , specialistic bookshelfs ( you want to make a car ? loot car factory and in safe you can find schematic) + something like " if you make 10 grilled steaks you can now make stake and potato meal" 

Farming - totaly not connected with perks

 

is problem because dmg , critical bonuses - probably big enough bonus could made low dmg gun  good enough to be universal. IF this would be only reload durability etc it's true. Well i understand about their priorities so that's more about  how this could work in 7DTD 2/next game situation not in 7DTD1

 

Dream on. They already solved that problem in 7D2D 1 by making damage and critical bonuses depend on weapons speed.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

To this note - i give this PPSH41 as example because  well is famouse and most players know how this guns  works usually in games - big magasine, bad accuracy.

 

Yeah, all gun nuts and players of shooters know. Other people don't. Just assume that whenever you talk about CoD with me you could as well talk to a stone.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

So ofc this would be something diffrent in game but it's the  best way to describe something - if i give example from diffrents games or movies i do this to describe something as best as possible without overcomplicated describtion.

 

This is not best as possible. Best as possible to talk about a gun with big magazine and bad accuracy is to say "gun with big magazine and bad accuracy". Look how clear that is. No specialist gun nut knowledge necessary. 😉

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

if i write " something like l4d2's splitter" 

 

Whatever that is. Never heard of it.

 

1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

 

 

i'm trying to give to most universal example but   i don't mean copy something - this can be big fat zombie who create infected pool after dead. Btw i think most WW2  guns - arisaka , 98K, thompson etc are free to use now and probably most of CCCP guns

 

 

[Fanatical_Meat]

4 hours ago, Burrfly said:

Hi everyone I've read some other forums and most people agree:

 

Bring back rebar frames and (re)add more block material (upgrades). Please. Thank you for reading. 

Unlikely at this time.

Finish the damn game so we can start playing whatever new fun pimps properties get announced.

[Selevan]

You guys should put another section to the first post called " confirmed features to be removed ", as apparentely you love removing the cool and unique features that made the game interesing in the first place.

[Jost Amman]

4 minutes ago, Selevan said:

You guys should put another section to the first post called " confirmed features to be removed ", as apparentely you love removing the cool and unique features that made the game interesing in the first place.

Such as?

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

I was reminded of classic shooters, for example the Doom series. The ammo is handplaced and usually not enough so that you can't just use one gun

 

Yep that's true. still i love seriouse sam- most time shotguns are perfect except when enemy have regeneration

 

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

No. With unlimited ammo and LBD you are pushed to using one gun as much as possible because the more you use it the better you are in it.

 

If you want people to use different weapons the best way is scarcity of ammo AND no advancement at all except if it advances all guns the same (in other words advances the characters abilities instead of learning to use specific weapons).

 

I think you might not know that for example critical bonuses from perks are adjusted for the shooting speed of weapons. So an SMG has less critical bonus per shot than a magnum with the same perks.

 

Why? If ammo is unlimited in an LBD system I would use the universal gun and always that one because the more I use it the better I get with it. If I use two guns instead, both would be only half as much advanced as that single one.

With a perk system on the other hand you could use speciality guns on occasions even if that would not advance your main gun. You would still get the xp to advance your main gun.

 

Dream on. They already solved that problem in 7D2D 1 by making damage and critical bonuses depend on weapons speed.

 

 

I doesn't mean unlimited ammo - i mean you have enough gunpowder to make( let say we have enough rest neccesary resources) 30 smg bullets or 5 sniper rifle bullets. So you have to choice what type of ammo you want to make because every gun have diffrent role

 Example - There exist low health but fast enemies rotten , very armored zombies and normal zombie. You know that on cementary you can find money, diamonds gold etc but there you can find rotten zombies. In military base you can find mostly armored zombie  - so you have to choose  - smg or rifle. In theory you can make 3 rifle bullets and 15 smg bullets but this will be not enough for any of both POIs . So one time you will go on cementary,  after making or looting bullets you will go into military base. 

 

So you have to plan what you want to do - diffrent POI mean diffrent "optimal" guns  in this place.

 

But why two types of this weapon category is better? 

Okay  let say : there is two types of fast enemies - dogs and foxes. foxes are in highter numbers but low hp - so smg with bigger magazine will be better that smg with bigger dmg good againts dogs

 

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

This is not best as possible. Best as possible to talk about a gun with big magazine and bad accuracy is to say "gun with big magazine and bad accuracy". Look how clear that is. No specialist gun nut knowledge necessary. 😉

Well but here is the problem  usually most smg have +-30 bullets. So big magazine can be for someone will be  45 bullets and this is logical. But PPSH 41 magazine is 71 bullets- so this is so a lot. Hm okay so when i will trying to describte you something i will do this but my comments will be longer, 

 

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Whatever that is. Never heard of it.

 

 

 

Taller that normal zombie infected woman who split acid and create pool of acid, big dmg in melee , low hp , pretty slow and after died she create smaller acid pool but will do dmg faster but smaller

[Selevan]

Wait, let me think.

 

 

Learn by doing - perfect system for such games, and dont start with the stone axes. It could easily be fixed in many ways. Like crafting the same stuff could be less and less profitable, where crafting new ones would be more. Perhaps combine it with perks/books system, like a16. Or even stick with perks, but bring back lbd for action skills, such as shooting, melee, athletics, looting, etc.

 

Gun parts where each part corresponds different gun statistics. That one got me in love with exploring, finding that better barrell to bump up my magnum a little and try to max it out was always exciting. 

 

Wellness, which made creating better food actually worthful. What was wrong with it?

 

Food smell. That one, together with gore blocks were controversial, but for the survival with horror elements, it was perfect, and that was the direction i expected the game to go. Not the casual, simplified fps.

 

 

Burnt forest was kinda bland, due to tfp ignoring it rather than making it more interesing, but it was still fitting well with the atmosphere, fog, and burnt environment. 

Too bad instead of making it cooler, they just removed it, leaving us with 4 biomes.

 

1-600 quality, where stuff like clothes, engine, tires, basket, handles (remember when making a vehicle wasnt just "do 10 quests or find two parts"? When you could keep upgrading your minibike, with the 7 different parts?)

 

Temperature system. What we have now, is just a leftover from what we had in earlier alphas. Nowadays it doesnt matter at all if youre naked in snow biome, if its searing hot or its raining. Everything it does are the small debuffs you wouldnt even notice if not the big indicators like red flashing vinette, images of red sun or blue snowflake together with the dangerously sounding "youre freezing! Find a shelter fast!". 

No, youre not. Youre just having a tiny debuff, and these notifications are from times where you could die to the weather. God, they didnt even bother to change them lol.

 

Log spikes. Not a big deal, but why not let us have more diversity in making the defences? I really loves to put them on my base walls.

 

Wall tiers (which applied to log spikes by the way). Why, please tell me why can not i have something between the very weak wood and strong cobblestone? What was the point of removing half of the levels, leaving just lousy 3 updates?

 

Continuing, wet concrete. Or even blunderbuss. It may be not much, but it was one of these little unique things that made the game cool. And since they barely add anything new, the game is getting dangerously empty.

 

Do you want me to keep going? Or should i move to other parts of the game? Like how bases are obsolete nowadays due to the quests being the only important thing, and the zombies that will always dig you out of your underground base, (hello supersense, trying to hide somewhere in some lost and abandoned basement to wait until its day time? Well, no luck. They will always find you, and always take the easiest way. Did you perhaps block the only entrance with some strong material? Well, out of luck again, because they will just dig around your barricades, and always find the weakest spot.) while on the other hand theyre still easy to outsmart? 

 

Or perhaps should i talk about the upcoming yet another overhaul of core game systems? Do you really think that the game on its ninth year of development should be at the stage of figuring out how they want the most fundamental stuff to work?

 

Oh, maybe about the lack of actual content, many features working still the same as they did in 2015, some missing since always? The only meaningful things that came since 2017 were quests (which are cool, but drove players away from the bases), and gun attachments.

 

Oh wait, we had new models and textures for stuff like inv icons and zombies. Something noone ever asked, yet such remakes always take at least 1/3 1/2 of an entire update (which take... 12-18 months) 

 

Well no wonder there is no new stuff, since the updates consists of texture remakes, core systems overhauls, and features removals.

 

In the end, maybe its well optimized without bugs? Oh wait.

 

I probably forgot tons of what i wanted to share, but.. Anything else youd like to discuss? Or youre busy watching 47th dev dairy videos about the bandits (promised in 2014), which from what im reading, will be just zombies with guns. Spawning out of nowhere, wandering aimlessly. But at least we will have few more models for constant retexturing in the future updates.

 

Edit: since when i play i only use rh or df mods, i didnt notice that they even removed the zombies population slider, lol. Whats coming in a21? Difficulty level flattened to normal and hard? Bike being removed? Wouldnt be surpised.

Edited July 5, 2022 by Selevan (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

Happy 4th of July!

 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by Guppycur (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

28 minutes ago, Selevan said:

Wait, let me think.

 

 

Learn by doing - perfect system for such games, and dont start with the stone axes. It could easily be fixed in many ways. Like crafting the same stuff could be less and less profitable, where crafting new ones would be more. Perhaps combine it with perks/books system, like a16. Or even stick with perks, but bring back lbd for action skills, such as shooting, melee, athletics, looting, etc.

 

Gun parts where each part corresponds different gun statistics. That one got me in love with exploring, finding that better barrell to bump up my magnum a little and try to max it out was always exciting. 

 

Wellness, which made creating better food actually worthful. What was wrong with it?

 

Food smell. That one, together with gore blocks were controversial, but for the survival with horror elements, it was perfect, and that was the direction i expected the game to go. Not the casual, simplified fps.

 

 

Burnt forest was kinda bland, due to tfp ignoring it rather than making it more interesing, but it was still fitting well with the atmosphere, fog, and burnt environment. 

Too bad instead of making it cooler, they just removed it, leaving us with 4 biomes.

 

1-600 quality, where stuff like clothes, engine, tires, basket, handles (remember when making a vehicle wasnt just "do 10 quests or find two parts"? When you could keep upgrading your minibike, with the 7 different parts?)

 

Temperature system. What we have now, is just a leftover from what we had in earlier alphas. Nowadays it doesnt matter at all if youre naked in snow biome, if its searing hot or its raining. Everything it does are the small debuffs you wouldnt even notice if not the big indicators like red flashing vinette, images of red sun or blue snowflake together with the dangerously sounding "youre freezing! Find a shelter fast!". 

No, youre not. Youre just having a tiny debuff, and these notifications are from times where you could die to the weather. God, they didnt even bother to change them lol.

 

Log spikes. Not a big deal, but why not let us have more diversity in making the defences? I really loves to put them on my base walls.

 

Wall tiers (which applied to log spikes by the way). Why, please tell me why can not i have something between the very weak wood and strong cobblestone? What was the point of removing half of the levels, leaving just lousy 3 updates?

 

Continuing, wet concrete. Or even blunderbuss. It may be not much, but it was one of these little unique things that made the game cool. And since they barely add anything new, the game is getting dangerously empty.

 

Do you want me to keep going? Or should i move to other parts of the game? Like how bases are obsolete nowadays due to the quests being the only important thing, and the zombies that will always dig you out of your underground base, (hello supersense, trying to hide somewhere in some lost and abandoned basement to wait until its day time? Well, no luck. They will always find you, and always take the easiest way. Did you perhaps block the only entrance with some strong material? Well, out of luck again, because they will just dig around your barricades, and always find the weakest spot.) while on the other hand theyre still easy to outsmart? 

 

Or perhaps should i talk about the upcoming yet another overhaul of core game systems? Do you really think that the game on its ninth year of development should be at the stage of figuring out how they want the most fundamental stuff to work?

 

Oh, maybe about the lack of actual content, many features working still the same as they did in 2015, some missing since always? The only meaningful things that came since 2017 were quests (which are cool, but drove players away from the bases), and gun attachments.

 

Oh wait, we had new models and textures for stuff like inv icons and zombies. Something noone ever asked, yet such remakes always take at least 1/3 1/2 of an entire update (which take... 12-18 months) 

 

Well no wonder there is no new stuff, since the updates consists of texture remakes, core systems overhauls, and features removals.

 

In the end, maybe its well optimized without bugs? Oh wait.

 

I probably forgot tons of what i wanted to share, but.. Anything else youd like to discuss? Or youre busy watching 47th dev dairy videos about the bandits (promised in 2014), which from what im reading, will be just zombies with guns. Spawning out of nowhere, wandering aimlessly. But at least we will have few more models for constant retexturing in the future updates.

 

Might wanna play a different game brah.  I dont post on forums of games i hate, i just dont play them.

Edited July 5, 2022 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Selevan]

Point is, i really liked the game, back in a15-16, and since the game was being developed that way since few updates, i thought this game had a huge potential, and that im excited.

 

Sadly, a17 was a complete failure, thats basically when the devs decided to completly change the game, and the 18-20 only continued that way. It keeps changing, but on the same way, it keeps getting simpler and less survivalish.

 

So yeah, im writing that, because im kinda frustrated at how the game completly wasted its enourmous potential

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Fanatical_Meat said:

Unlikely at this time.

Finish the damn game so we can start playing whatever new fun pimps properties get announced.

Considering the mess theyre doing with 7d2d, i wouldnt stay excited for any of their new game.

[Laz Man]

6 minutes ago, Selevan said:

Point is, i really liked the game, back in a15-16, and since the game was being developed that way since few updates, i thought this game had a huge potential, and that im excited.

 

Sadly, a17 was a complete failure, thats basically when the devs decided to completly change the game, and the 18-20 only continued that way. It keeps changing, but on the same way, it keeps getting simpler and less survivalish.

 

So yeah, im writing that, because im kinda frustrated at how the game completly wasted its enourmous potential

 

 

 

Considering the mess theyre doing with 7d2d, i wouldnt stay excited for any of their new game.

 

Sorry to hear you are unhappy with the game's direction since the Alpha you most enjoyed.  All of what you mentioned has been discussed and rehashed multiple times here on the forums.

 

Hopefully you can still find some enjoyment in the game when it's finally done.  If not, I hope modding can bring back some of that spark for you.  And if that doesn't work, I genuinely hope you find another game you can be positive and excited about.  Life is too short to be dwelling on what could have been.

 

 

[Roland]

Change is part of development. The game won’t get pure add-ons until it’s done. While in development you should expect change and replacement features as devs experiment and iterate on their design. 
 

Once the game is declared finished and complete, you won’t see any more overhauls, cuts, and reimplementations. But until then, anything is fair game to be changed. 

[Kalex]

4 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Happy 4th of July!

 

 

I want to see those fireworks in game

[Roland]

But as gibs and arterial spray. 

[Arma Rex]

6 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Happy 4th of July!

 

 

Excellent firework effects!