Alpha 21 Discussion Overflow

[Gronal]

Jeez have fun moving all this to the A21 discussion overflow thread mods xD I still wish this were just a place for devs to give small updates and nothing else.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Gronal (see edit history)

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, KatsPurr said:

Right, well in this case then - the diplomatic and considerate thing would have been to wait to show any of the female "player" characters until they can share a broader assortment.

I think you would get some push back from other female gamers if that happened.  I know that if they showed a variety of female character models and no make character models, I wouldn't be happy.  If they then said they were sorry but none were finished yet and they're show us something as soon as there was something to show, that would at least take the sting out of it.  But if they said they had one they could have shown but choose not to because it was only one and some people might not like it, then I would be very upset.

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, khzmusik said:

You're a bit late for the congratulations. Females have made up between 45-50% of the gaming market for over a decade.

Well, I was talking more about these type of games (like 7D2D).

If most males are playing survival/fps games and most females play (e.g.) Stardew Valley, then it's kind of like gaming segregation, if you know what I mean.

[ShieldOfZen]

I’m also wondering if stuff can still be dyed. I play on a server with friends, and it’s a convenient way to remember whose bike/gear is whose (crossing my fingers that they add orange at some point lol.

 

As for the character models, is Roland giving us a soft confirmation that some version of the raider gear is wearable by players? Because that’d be sick as hell! And yeah, having outfits in different styles is always a plus, sexy and not, so people can really customize their play styles and experience. I’d be down to go raid the Beefcake Bungalow 😂

[Roland]

1 hour ago, KatsPurr said:

Here's how I imagine a dev stream should work: Devs agree upon a common goal and negotiate among themselves beforehand what they're going to show and why. They're also going to put at least some consideration into how the public may react to what they're going to show and make sure to do their checks and balances accordingly - beforehand. It is at this point that they should be asking themselves questions like:

 

"Hmm, maybe not the best idea to show female player characters yet, since all we've got to show is the sexualized one? We don't want our female players to get the wrong idea and to feel undervalued and creeped out. Yeah, let's only show male player characters today and save the female models for later when we can give a much more balanced overview of the great work we've been doing."

 

lol...the next dev stream will take place in 6 months time while the team meets to deliberate and speculate on how not to offend anyone and make everyone happy. I'm sorry you were creeped out and felt undervalued by the Laura Croft look-a-like but frankly its all art and anyone could feel offended by any of it at any time. They might as well not show any of it if they are going to try to make sure that nobody could possibly get offended and everyone will be happy. Someone is offended by the tank model. Someone else is offended by the wheelchair. Someone else is offended by male models. Someone else is offended that none of the backstories show that any of the characters or NPCs are LGBTQ+, someone else feels the racial ratios are off based on what they've shown.

 

Like I said, Laura Croft has been in public view for about 20 years now. Both male and female gamers are familiar with her and nobody I've heard of is creeped out by her or feels she's a shot across the bow of female identity and self-worth. We would any discussion leading to the dev stream end in them thinking this model which is completely on par with Laura Croft would alienate anyone? I really don't think it does other than a very few that in my opinion could not be planned for.

 

And I know for a fact that if only male characters had been shown there would have been an outcry about why no females. Maybe not from you but from someone else who would be offended that TFP should have planned better to make sure there were both male and female characters to show. The only proven method of not giving offense to someone is to just not have dev stream at all.

 

1 hour ago, KatsPurr said:

However this is the one moment where I felt like I needed to speak up. I'm passionate about 7 days. I want to see it thrive. I want to see female players feeling welcome and respected. I want the community to grow. Ya know, sometimes stuff has to be called out, and this was such a moment. Again it's not only about the female character, it's a lot of things that show lack of consideration of female players. And if people don't call this kind of thing out, how will they ever know there was a problem to begin with? How will they improve? How will the community grow into a more welcoming place for everyone? 

 

And you should! I'm glad you are voicing your opinion on this. Just because I think your expectations are off and your sense that a large portion of females have been creeped out by Laura Croft all these years is wrong doesn't mean I don't think you shouldn't post your opinions. I admit that there is a huge sex-factor discrepancy between the male desert costume and the female desert costume and that a woman would be a fool to wear something like that costume in the desert among virus-spreading zombies. Laura Crofts outfit is equally ridiculous for what she does. But I don't think that it alienates most women and girls. Since the whole industry often depicts women in comic book proportions and we just learned that the proportion of the market has grown to 45% -50% women it seems the opposite of alienation is happening.

 

1 hour ago, KatsPurr said:

Listen, I don't think the team are lecherous. In fact, I'm absolutely sure that the majority of the team are absolute sweetie pies. I just think they're a bit clueless and tone deaf when it comes to how they present the game. It's easy to get carried away when you're bubbling with excitement for a new feature and you just know all the dudes are gonna go nuts when they see it. All I ask is for them to say to one another "Hey guys, let's remember our female players and how they will feel about this. Will this creep them out? Will this make them feel unwelcome?" Etc

 

Understood. Its hard to know though whether female players actually are feeling creeped out and unwelcome. You do in regards to that model. But is that representative of everyone? Maybe. Someone should do a study on it. My daughter used to dress up like Laura Croft-- not for Halloween but on a regular basis and she would leap from couch section to couch section. She's coming over to dinner tomorrow and I'll show her the desert girl and ask her what she thinks with no explanations. I'm almost certain she'll say "Laura Croft!" and not feel creeped out but I could be wrong-- and, of course, that would just be my own anecdotal experience so it doesn't prove anything.

 

1 hour ago, KatsPurr said:

Right, well in this case then - the diplomatic and considerate thing would have been to wait to show any of the female "player" characters until they can share a broader assortment.

 

They showed two models one of which was not overly sexy and you totally focused on the sexy one. If they'd shown seven unsexy and that one I still think you would have focused on it. Maybe I'm wrong and we can't know. But I disagree that showing that Laura Croft look-a-like was in any way inconsiderate or undiplomatic for most viewers. Again, I hope you feel better about the game as more and more female characters and costumes are shown over the next several months.

14 minutes ago, ShieldOfZen said:

I’m also wondering if stuff can still be dyed. I play on a server with friends, and it’s a convenient way to remember whose bike/gear is whose (crossing my fingers that they add orange at some point lol.

 

As for the character models, is Roland giving us a soft confirmation that some version of the raider gear is wearable by players? Because that’d be sick as hell! And yeah, having outfits in different styles is always a plus, sexy and not, so people can really customize their play styles and experience. I’d be down to go raid the Beefcake Bungalow 😂

 

Justin on the stream confirmed that at least the Wasteland Assassin character's outfit was probably going to be six pieces and all wearable by the player so I suspect all the outfits are being planned to be wearable.

 

Dyes still work in A21. My bike is brown, my baseball bat is blue, and my bow is green.

Edited April 22, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

21 hours ago, Crypted said:

The Armor is on the Roadmap to Gold and Beyond list so that will probably change depending on what TFP do to it, I agree with you on gameplay updates. 

personally, i love replacing all the mostly useless clothes to make them more useful

like 9/10 times, are you going to wear military boots or biker boots? the only thing ill miss is extra additions like Jackets, glasses and face parts.
Despite some clothes/armor i dislike *cough* *cough* female desert armor and nerd armor *Cough* *cough* Most look great!

(btw i don't hate the female desert armor cuz it looks sexy, i just think is much less practical, at least Lara Croth (mostly) wore a full tank top and some short shorts or Longer pants) 

i terms of gameplay, like i said, nothing crazy.. more melee animations per attack, better eating animations
 

Spoiler

Melee and heavy melee under the same button (press for basic and hold for heavy)
Block and Kick (press for blocking the attack lesses melee damage) (Hold to kick/shove to stun Disrupt)

Some melee weapons are faster/slower at blocking or shoving and some like knifes don't have a Block but a Heavy slash for cutting many targets.

Guns are more or less the same but able to Hold the aim button/trigger to bash zombies back

Zombies have the same too. able to grab on too you if your not careful, heavy zombies able to charge at you, leaner zombies being more agile and able to climb better 
 

 

Edited April 22, 2023 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

12 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

 

 

@Roland I am fine with Lara Croft above but I am very offended by that hot bare chested chiseled man with sculptured pecs, large package ready to burst out,  toned deltoids,  and abs I can wash my clothes on.  

Edited April 22, 2023 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

2 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

@RolandI  am fine with Lara Croft above but I am very offended by that hot bare chested chiseled man with sculptured pecs, large package ready to burst out,  toned deltoids,  and abs I can wash my clothes on.  

when i saw that i knew you would light up like a X-mas tree

[KatsPurr]

28 minutes ago, Roland said:

lol...the next dev stream will take place in 6 months time while the team meets to deliberate and speculate on how not to offend anyone and make everyone happy. I'm sorry you were creeped out and felt undervalued by the Laura Croft look-a-like but frankly

 

*scratches head* I'm clearly not communicating myself very well because it feels like what I'm trying to convey is not being heard or understood. It's like we speak different languages or are in two different parallel universes or something. It can happen to the best of us.

 

Anyhow, I've said what I wanted to say and hopefully my message was understood by someone out there. Thanks for the discussion folks. Regardless of the kerfuffle, I'm still MEGA SUPER DUPER excited and hyped for A21. Let's doooo thiiiiiis! 

 

 

 

 

[Star69]

@KatsPurr I get exactly what you have been saying and am surprised at some peoples negative responses. For me, it isn’t necessarily about the outfits but the fact that all of the the female characters that have been displayed have overly large breasts or exaggerated breasts. Guppy says all of the models are in great shape because those are people most likely to survive an apocalypse and he is correct. But does that mean only females who are in great shape and have large breasts are going to survive? Come on….big breasted female models are geared towards males. The exception as I remember is Trader Jen because she is modeled after the artists real life gf/wife. But seriously, most of the extremely fit females do not have overly large breasts, actually the opposite due to low body fat. If I am getting @KatsPurr viewpoint, this is part of what she’s trying to say. I love the first Laura Croft movies with her exaggerated chest but was much happier with the last movie because you got all of Crofts attributes without the major bust.

[Slasher]

if i hear "Laura" croft one more time i think im gonna SCREAM!

[kanaverum]

7 minutes ago, KatsPurr said:

*scratches head* I'm clearly not communicating myself very well because it feels like what I'm trying to convey is not being heard or understood. It's like we speak different languages or are in two different parallel universes or something. It can happen to the best of us.

 

Anyhow, I've said what I wanted to say and hopefully my message was understood by someone out there. Thanks for the discussion folks. Regardless of the kerfuffle, I'm still MEGA SUPER DUPER excited and hyped for A21. Let's doooo thiiiiiis! 

 

Sometimes conversations like this can feel exhausting for people because just about everywhere you look, people are getting outraged about "everything" when it's really unnecessary to do so. You seem to be bringing this up with an open mind rather than blind rage and I appreciate that about your post.

And because you seem to have an open mind, I think you might also appreciate another perspective.

This is a pretty personal subject for me; I'm bringing it up only because this topic seems to be glossed over in popular culture fairly often.

Everyone has a right to be critical of anything they find to be concerning; this is America and we have the freedom of speech - I think that's a good thing.

That said, being critical of certain things can also send an unintended message.

 

I personally know many women with fit bodies and/or larger chest sizes (no plastic surgery) who have been criticized unnecessarily through part of their lives (nearly always by other women... which I don't fully understand; the guys I know don't treat each other that way). 

My own wife fits into this category. <-- the personal part

 

So when others are critical of in-game character art that looks similar to their own bodies, I think that sends the wrong message to people like my wife.

Just more bullying or attempted erasure of their own image in media. 

Isn't fair representation of all people part of the goal here? I think it is... so why are images in media that actually do reflect the body dimensions of some women constantly being attacked? (not by you, necessarily; I'm speaking generally here)

 

When I look at that new female character art slated for A22, I can think of multiple women I know in real life who look roughly the same, dress similarly (for hikes or when generally acceptable to do so - mostly in hot weather), and they have even larger bust sizes than the character art depicts.

 

It doesn't seem fair to me for others to look at this A22 female character art and suggest something that basically amounts to: "real women don't look like that".

I promise you, there are real women who do.

 

And while I haven't been able to confirm 100%, community members have informed me that Trader Jen's model is based off of the artist's wife.

I'm informed that TFP were given no end of grief for the way Trader Jen looked and all I could think when I heard about this was "I wonder how it made the dev's wife feel."

[KatsPurr]

10 minutes ago, kanaverum said:

 

Sometimes conversations like this can feel exhausting for people because just about everywhere you look, people are getting outraged about "everything" when it's really unnecessary to do so. You seem to be bringing this up with an open mind rather than blind rage and I appreciate that about your post.

 

Hey there Kanaverum. For some odd reason (maybe because of Rolands responses to me that seemed to put words in my mouth), people have the absolutely incorrect misconception that I have a problem with big boobs and Trader Jen. I never said anything like that. In fact I said the opposite. Quotes of what I said: 

 

• "Let me make something absolutely clear 'kay? I absolutely DO NOT mind a game having hottie outfits for female characters in games. "
• "I also don't mind the only female trader in the game being a cutie called Jen who flirts with me from time to time."
• "ALL of the characters were ah-maaaazing! INCLUDING THE TOMB RAIDER ONE. Yes, you heard right. Including the busty tomb raider! Although I personally think she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop. Just a wee bit! "

 

 

I never once criticized a female having big breasts. 

 

The only critique I ever had that was linked to the female character was not about the character itself, but how and when it was presented to the community. That I would have appreciated if devs had presented it alongside other female options to give a more balanced overview. By presenting it on it's own after a slew of cool male characters, it just sent the wrong message to the community.

 

The only critique of the character boobs themselves was from an artistic perspective, more about how they were modeled. They didn't look natural being so round and hard looking. Breast flesh has flexibility to it, that's all. 

 

1 hour ago, Star69 said:

@KatsPurr I get exactly what you have been saying and am surprised at some peoples negative responses. For me, it isn’t necessarily about the outfits but the fact that all of the the female characters that have been displayed have overly large breasts or exaggerated breasts. Guppy says all of the models are in great shape because those are people most likely to survive an apocalypse and he is correct. But does that mean only females who are in great shape and have large breasts are going to survive? Come on….big breasted female models are geared towards males. The exception as I remember is Trader Jen because she is modeled after the artists real life gf/wife. But seriously, most of the extremely fit females do not have overly large breasts, actually the opposite due to low body fat. If I am getting @KatsPurr viewpoint, this is part of what she’s trying to say. I love the first Laura Croft movies with her exaggerated chest but was much happier with the last movie because you got all of Crofts attributes without the major bust.

 

Thanks for trying to be supportive Star, but I'm afraid there have been some misunderstandings:

Let me make this clear: 

• I don't have a problem with big breasts. Never did. The character is not the issue here. 
• I don't have a problem with Trader Jen. Never did. She's adorable!
• I don't have a problem with Lara Croft. Never did. For some reason Roland made his own assumptions that I did and hence his messages convey that

 

All I want is for devs to remember to consider female players in the way they conduct themselves and how they present content. That's all. 

[JayBiggS]

I can look past the tomb raider super model character, but combined with the artist Lee's comment about controversy with the un-dressed version, I'm apprehensive about what the base models will be like. There's already a pervy undertone to 7Days that is right on the line and it wouldn't take much to push it too far for me. I'm not asking TFP to change their game, I'm asking if I need to hang up my stone axe and leave the game behind.

There's enough sexual imagery in the world and I hope it doesn't infiltrate my favorite game. I don't play Rust, Conan, or any other game that thinks it adds some kind of clout to their game or sells more copies to add nudity. It isn't "mature" or edgy or anything of the sort and adds nothing at all to a game besides controversy. I don't respect it at all. But that's my personal taste and again, I'm not asking TFP to change the game for me. I can reluctantly move on, if that's the direction they've chosen. I'd just like clarification now so I can quit now and stop investing my time in the game.

And before the, "lolol there's decapitation and blood and violence in the game and you're fine with that!??" argument comes out, there is a difference here. Seeing violence doesn't make me want to do violence. Seeing sexualized imagery, well let's just say it has an effect. One I don't want to experience because I played a stupid video game.

[Grandpa Minion]

On 4/20/2023 at 2:39 PM, Obsessive Compulsive said:

Thanks for the details. That definitely makes more sense.

The 0.01 is the unity update tick rate? Unless I am mistaken. The tick rate of the update phase coming out of the engine is 0.01.

Oh you update physics at a different pace. Interesting. Maybe this changed for a21 or a later version? That is great to hear. Fixed update and update phase should definitely be utilized just as you mentioned. I must have misread the code. Currently I am updating it all at one time as that seemed to be how entities were handled. I do not run updates on entities every frame though, I do however run the gmUpdate method every frame and a faster rate.

I will have to take another look. It looked like the positions, physics, animations and stats were updating every tick for entities and triggered from the 0.01 unity update phase tick. This update tick triggers the gmUpdate method. Something else may have paced that down to 0.05 as you said. It was a little confusing how it was approached. Some sort of split list approach with entity in particular threw me off.

I took over gmUpdate using harmony and isolated the entity update section that triggers from it. I do not run the entity slice and split entity update the way you had it since I was able to utilize that 0.01 unity tick rate more efficiently and it looked like it was more or less to catch up on missed entities due to running too long during the update process. Since I am aiming to keep the tick runtime under 0.01, I can run multiple updates of the entire gmUpdate method within the same time frame of 0.05 that you are currently using. When I allowed the entity to update on every single tick at the 0.01 rate, things were moving around at super sonic speeds. The animations surprisingly keep up until it runs out of ai pathing, then gets stuck running in place. This might be one reason things are getting stuck in game at rare times. High lag and the server failing to keep the path up to date, might get them stuck in place as their animations out pace it. Something out paces the data available for sure, so they run in place at that point.

By using a combination of multi thread during certain phases for the player update, I can keep their runtime under 0.01 even with larger player counts.

As you stated, you are targeting a 0.05-0.06 time frame window. Since I am aiming for 0.01 as a max runtime per tick, I can split the work across that 0.05 time frame and update specific entities or do specific tasks within each tick, so long as I aim to keep them below that 0.01 runtime which, at least in testing seems to match the update tick from unity that triggers the gmUpdate.

In testing, I found I was able to run ten ticks at 0.01 and keep the animation flow to match your current game state, ai was more in tune to player movements and pathing around them, network is updated more frequent so you get less bottlenecking with packet dumps. You have multiple ticks to work with so you can focus on chunk sync to unity which is part of that gmUpdate method and gets a bit heavy with high player counts, but this keeps chunks loading really smooth around players.

When I say I run a tick, that means running the gmUpdate method fully, however I am isolating the entity update section of gmUpdate. I run ten ticks at 0.01, total equaling 0.1 time frame approx. Only players update on tick 1 and 6. They update completely, entire list both times. That utilizes multi threading as I phased certain sections like the physics which is mostly in the EntityAlive.OnUpdateLive sections of EntityAlive types. I do this with players to keep a better consistency of the movement that other players see. PvP is dramatically improved but so are the general hitbox responses due to keeping closer in sync. I hope the netcode improvements from a21 will really boost that for us. Exciting!

The physics for non alive types are mostly in the Entity.OnUpdate. I update non players single threaded but I divide the work across four ticks so tick 2 3 4 5 are for non players. If there were 100 entity to update, 25 are updated in each tick. Spreading the ai burden. This is why I am thrilled about your updates with AI since the combination with what I am trying out, equals a lot of zombies. I don't see why 400 zombies would not be possible with 100 updated across the four ticks. That should fit inside the runtimes. Tick 7 8 9 10 are for the chunk syncs to unity.

When I made it run 12 ticks, I was able to see a momentary stutter in the animation flow of the characters vs the network updates. This was very similar to when high lag and large entity counts will stutter the updates of entity normally. You also start to see a lag in the ai response while moving around the zombies. 10 ticks seems to be the limit which is 0.1 overall so long as I keep my runtimes below 0.01 for each tick. Currently the game runtime is often going well above 0.1 when large player counts or high entity numbers exist, which not only misses your 0.05 runtime rate but starts to bottleneck the netcode with multiple events getting updating at one time on the player side. It starts to look like warping.

One other trick I attempted was sector work. Splitting the map to five sectors. Update each sector with a different core handling all the entity of that sector single threaded but simultaneous to each other running their own sectors. Then run the last sector on the main which would be the middle grounds between the sectors. This would avoid physics collisions and overlaps while spreading the work. Only issue there is it does not address bottlenecking within a single sector. It would penalize all of them and so the advantages would be reduced, but typically one core was trying to update all of them, so it has to benefit in some manner.

There are two sections if isolated to avoid overlaps, they can be multi threaded. By that I mean running just the Entity.OnUpdate as its own phase and the OnUpdateLive sections as its own phase. It is tricky due to the overrides and how it is coded into the rest of the entity update process, but it can be done. It breaks the OOP pattern though so I know what you mean. You are not going to change the code now and I wouldn't dare suggest you need to. In general, this is not something I would expect you guys to ever do from the whims of some random forum post guy haha. This is your baby, I am just letting you know what I have found in testing so far.

If you multi thread these as phases you just need to be cautious of anything spawning, despawning, unloading chunks which in turn unload the entity. Of course double check for race conditions from static lists or anything you might modify while another thread is using the data. You do not want to be running your physics/collision checks and have something change position or despawn. It will crash the engine as I have experienced a lot of. To avoid this while I am updating multi threaded, I make sure the UnloadEntities method from the World class is run inside of the main thread task queue from your thread manager class. I am also running the main thread tasks twice inside of the gmUpdate method that I took over. Once in the original spot you have it placed but another right after the entity update section so that anything I toss at the main thread queue will stay inside the frame time.

You guys have a ton of awesome tools and systems that work really well together. A+. Would love to see the job system in action. I am still learning how it functions.

Sorry for the long post. I thought it would be best to give better explanations this time

Thank you so much for working on the optimizer... A20 nearly killed multiplayer servers due to the lack of optimazations: while making NAIWAZI alot of money by servers paying for his NON EAC FRIENDLY OPTIMIZER. Your optimizer is EAC friendly and without it there would have been no way our server could have achieved 50+ players on with a respectable fps and cpu usage. I sure hope people and the pimps give you the credit that you deserve.

[Riamus]

1 hour ago, kanaverum said:

It doesn't seem fair to me for others to look at this A22 female character art and suggest something that basically amounts to: "real women don't look like that".

I promise you, there are real women who do.

I don't think anyone here said the woman didn't look like someone might actually look.  The comments are more regarding the "standard" that game developers tend to use for depicting women in video games.  They are very often this shape and wearing tight or skimpy clothing and the reason is clearly to attract male players.  That's really where this discussion has been focused on.  It isn't that women can't look like this but that game developers generally only show women who look like this rather than the many other variations.  Of course, our zombies are pretty varied and the bandit woman was fully covered, so TFP is a step above what you generally see in video games.  If there was more balance to how women were represented and what they wear in games, there would be fewer people who get upset about it.

 

That being said, this is one character model and we'll have a variety of options just based on the various images of the male player model, so I don't think it's something to get upset about until we see the rest of the options.  IF those are all the same, THEN there is cause to be upset.  But I don't expect that. 

[JVOSS18]

Idk, maybe wrong, but I think what Katspurr is stating is that they should of had more models of female characters. They showed multiple males, but only 2 females. Or am I wrong?

[kanaverum]

23 minutes ago, KatsPurr said:

Hey there Kanaverum. For some odd reason (maybe because of Rolands responses to me that seemed to put words in my mouth), people have the absolutely incorrect misconception that I have a problem with big boobs and Trader Jen. I never said anything like that. In fact I said the opposite. Quotes of what I said: 

 

• "Let me make something absolutely clear 'kay? I absolutely DO NOT mind a game having hottie outfits for female characters in games. "
• "I also don't mind the only female trader in the game being a cutie called Jen who flirts with me from time to time."
• "ALL of the characters were ah-maaaazing! INCLUDING THE TOMB RAIDER ONE. Yes, you heard right. Including the busty tomb raider! Although I personally think she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop. Just a wee bit! "

 

 

I never once criticized a female having big breasts. 

 

The only critique I ever had that was linked to the female character was not about the character itself, but how and when it was presented to the community. That I would have appreciated if devs had presented it alongside other female options to give a more balanced overview. By presenting it on it's own after a slew of cool male characters, it just sent the wrong message to the community.

 

The only critique of the character boobs themselves was from an artistic perspective, more about how they were modeled. They didn't look natural being so round and hard looking. Breast flesh has flexibility to it, that's all. 

 

 

Thanks for trying to be supportive Star, but I'm afraid there have been some misunderstandings:

Let me make this clear: 

• I don't have a problem with big breasts. Never did. The character is not the issue here. 
• I don't have a problem with Trader Jen. Never did. She's adorable!
• I don't have a problem with Lara Croft. Never did. For some reason Roland made his own assumptions that I did and hence his messages convey that

 

All I want is for devs to remember to consider female players in the way they conduct themselves and how they present content. That's all. 

Ah, I interpreted what you posted as 2 separate topics (like a list of things you were pointing out about the model):
- she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural
- and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop

"more natural" has often been used in conversations about 'women in video games' to suggest "boobs aren't that big irl" (when in real life, some are much larger and completely natural).

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but will say this is a key point where I misunderstood you.

Taking what you were saying originally as being 1 single concept about the model, I understand you're suggesting a "natural" [naturally] sitting in the top - as in, referring to physics/weight/etc.

 

Thanks for the added clarification

 

[on the dev stream topic]

For the dev stream, I recall them saying (on stream) that the female underwear model was excluded from the stream because presenting it would send the wrong message; maybe the exact words were "would cause too much trouble", but I can't recall perfectly. 

So it does seem, to me, that they are at least making an attempt to be mindful of their female audience.

 

I would've loved to see more female outfits as well... though I think we'd be equally surprised if TFP present cold-weather gear for the female rig that amounts to little more than a fur-clad bikini lol

[katarynna]

I really think part of the issue with the desert woman's outfit may be heavily influenced by where you live.

 

I grew up in Tampa, Florida and saw women in similar clothing everywhere i went. Malls, restaurants, amusement parks, mini golf.... whereever.

 

I look at her and don't really see a skimpy or overly sexy outfit. I see a hot weather outfit.  Not even a super cute hot weather outfit.... just something many women and girls would wear.

 

The woman herself is attractive, with a very toned body and large boobs.  But again, i know many women and girls with a similar body type, so i didn't really notice it until it was pointed out. 

 

If you were always surrounded by similar outfits, and wore them yourself when you were much much younger and thinner, it just registers as attractive and well-designed.

 

Having that outfit being the only one presented doesn't concern me in the slightest. Their zombie females include both the sexy party girl and sexy big mama. I think tfp have already proven to me that they are pretty diverse in the body types and clothing they present. 

 

However, my character will quite happily wear either the desert outfit or big mama's dress, depending on which fits my mental image of the character more. Having a variety of choices that represent the various characters that we create is wonderful. I personally wouldn't care if there was a completely naked outfit for each sex that gave nature-related buffs, If i was channeling my inner hippie, i would go for it.

[khzmusik]

8 hours ago, Roland said:

Like I said, Laura Croft has been in public view for about 20 years now. Both male and female gamers are familiar with her and nobody I've heard of is creeped out by her or feels she's a shot across the bow of female identity and self-worth.

 

Is this a joke? Because Laura Croft (or at least the non-modern Laura Croft character that TFP have paid homage to) has been the very definition of sexism in gaming for twenty years. The innate sexism of the character is almost certainly why the modern Tomb Raider games avoided the old character.

 

https://www.vox.com/culture/2018/3/17/17128344/lara-croft-tomb-raider-history-controversy-breasts

https://pitjournal.unc.edu/2023/01/06/lara-croft-and-gaming-feminism-in-a-hyper-masculine-industry/

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20180314-why-lara-croft-is-no-feminist-role-model

 

EDIT: It is true that Laura Croft has also been seen as "empowering" because she is the player's avatar in a videogame, and that videogame is action-oriented, and she is female. But those reasons (or excuses?) for her being seen as "empowering" fall by the wayside if that character is only one among many that can be chosen, and the others are not big-busted, midriff-showing females - in this case the avatar's only defining characteristics are that it's a big busted, midriff-showing female.

 

Look, TFP can replicate that character if they want, but what they can't do is replicate that character and also avoid all of the cultural baggage and debate about sexism that surrounds that character.

 

TFP made that bed and now they have to lie in it.

 

(Also, this is coming from someone who likes the outfit, and also likes both midriffs and breasts, regardless of whether they're bare and/or big.)

 

EDIT 2: You know what would have avoided this whole problem? If the clothing on the desert female was the same as the desert male. The female could have the same body type, same bust size, everything, but just not have been dressed in short shorts and a shirt that covered nothing but her breasts. This actually seems to be easier then the clothing option on her now. Why are we all not focusing on why TFP deliberately chose to do more work to make the clothing different on the female?

Edited April 23, 2023 by khzmusik (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

The only critique I ever had that was linked to the female character was not about the character itself, but how and when it was presented to the community. That I would have appreciated if devs had presented it alongside other female options to give a more balanced overview.

 

 

... did they not show another female, one that is all bundled up as a bandit?

[Jost Amman]

1 hour ago, Guppycur said:

The only critique I ever had that was linked to the female character was not about the character itself, but how and when it was presented to the community. That I would have appreciated if devs had presented it alongside other female options to give a more balanced overview.

 

 

... did they not show another female, one that is all bundled up as a bandit?

Yes. But they presented it in the "wrong" order, you know...

 

2 hours ago, katarynna said:

I really think part of the issue with the desert woman's outfit may be heavily influenced by where you live.

 

I grew up in Tampa, Florida and saw women in similar clothing everywhere i went. Malls, restaurants, amusement parks, mini golf.... whereever.

 

I look at her and don't really see a skimpy or overly sexy outfit. I see a hot weather outfit.  Not even a super cute hot weather outfit.... just something many women and girls would wear.

 

The woman herself is attractive, with a very toned body and large boobs.  But again, i know many women and girls with a similar body type, so i didn't really notice it until it was pointed out. 

 

If you were always surrounded by similar outfits, and wore them yourself when you were much much younger and thinner, it just registers as attractive and well-designed.

 

Having that outfit being the only one presented doesn't concern me in the slightest. Their zombie females include both the sexy party girl and sexy big mama. I think tfp have already proven to me that they are pretty diverse in the body types and clothing they present. 

 

However, my character will quite happily wear either the desert outfit or big mama's dress, depending on which fits my mental image of the character more. Having a variety of choices that represent the various characters that we create is wonderful. I personally wouldn't care if there was a completely naked outfit for each sex that gave nature-related buffs, If i was channeling my inner hippie, i would go for it.

This is, in my opinion, by far, the most balanced and insightful comment that has been done on the "issue" until now. Congrats.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[kanaverum]

So I’m seeing a rough pattern forming in many of these replies:

1. I don’t like it

2. Actually, I do like 99% of it - I just think it might make someone else uncomfortable

3. I’m not a prude, I’m even down for nude

[ I’m paraphrasing ]

 

I think it’s ok for us to relax some and assume positive intent. Nobody (including TFP, imho) genuinely think 7 Days to Die should become: “hot mamas go in there blasting but find the only way to stop zombies is with a firm smack from their 4-gallon jugs: the game”.

 

After all, that’s what modders are for  (kidding)

 

On a more serious note, the desired result from everyone is for more people to embrace and enjoy 7 Days to Die and for that to be an engaging, rewarding experience. 

 

That said, I think we also need to be aware  that TFP ultimately shoulder the vast majority of the risk when making creative decisions. It’s important for us to understand that no one wants 7 Days to succeed more than TFP. 

 

[meilodasreh]

2 hours ago, katarynna said:

I personally wouldn't care if there was a completely naked outfit for each sex that gave nature-related buffs, If i was channeling my inner hippie, i would go for it.

I've heard snowdog has his own server farm to host exclusively nudist games, to give people a home who refuse to wear any type of clothing/armor, but stick to the "just woke up in the apocalypse dress".

PM him for the login data.

 

Edited April 23, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[Roland]

3 hours ago, khzmusik said:

Is this a joke? Because Laura Croft (or at least the non-modern Laura Croft character that TFP have paid homage to) has been the very definition of sexism in gaming for twenty years. The innate sexism of the character is almost certainly why the modern Tomb Raider games avoided the old character.

No joke. The new tomb raiders have plenty of Laura Croft sex appeal. The original tomb raiders were rereleased and not…reduced. The movies were true to her original look and form with the newest movie looking more like the modern version but not necessarily toned down. 
 

Finally, with all that controversy about how women are depicted in games (of which Laura Croft was just one example) the gaming community has somehow someway seen a skyrocketing increase in girls and women over the same period of time.
 

That’s my point. It is just a small but loud minority who feel offended while the large majority play on without much of a care at all. It makes for some wry humor and head shaking and that’s about it for most people. And honestly most want their fantasy time to be heroic and larger than life rather than ho hum and normal looking. 
 

So sure TFP made the character and made her extremely easy on the eyes and so now have to live with the unavoidable repercussions that someone will always feel offended about something. Remember that these guys are artists. They probably live for creating something that turns out to be provocative.