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KatsPurr last won the day on April 23 2023
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Announcing: Alpha 21 Streamer Weekend Application
KatsPurr replied to Crater Creator's topic in News & Announcements
Thanks, yeah someone else also pointed me to the same tool. I'm going to try it. @KatsPurr Editing this in to not clog up the post, but if you want open up a post in General Support with information such as a DXdiag output (run dxdiag in the run box, click save all) and your specs and what you've troubleshot so far. -
Announcing: Alpha 21 Streamer Weekend Application
KatsPurr replied to Crater Creator's topic in News & Announcements
Is there a deadline for applications? I was having troubles streaming 7 days tonight with a lot of stuttering even though I just upgraded to a 4070ti, so I need to troubleshoot where the issue is and get things running smoothly before I can commit to something like this. -
Hey there Kanaverum. For some odd reason (maybe because of Rolands responses to me that seemed to put words in my mouth), people have the absolutely incorrect misconception that I have a problem with big boobs and Trader Jen. I never said anything like that. In fact I said the opposite. Quotes of what I said: "Let me make something absolutely clear 'kay? I absolutely DO NOT mind a game having hottie outfits for female characters in games. " "I also don't mind the only female trader in the game being a cutie called Jen who flirts with me from time to time." "ALL of the characters were ah-maaaazing! INCLUDING THE TOMB RAIDER ONE. Yes, you heard right. Including the busty tomb raider! Although I personally think she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop. Just a wee bit! " I never once criticized a female having big breasts. The only critique I ever had that was linked to the female character was not about the character itself, but how and when it was presented to the community. That I would have appreciated if devs had presented it alongside other female options to give a more balanced overview. By presenting it on it's own after a slew of cool male characters, it just sent the wrong message to the community. The only critique of the character boobs themselves was from an artistic perspective, more about how they were modeled. They didn't look natural being so round and hard looking. Breast flesh has flexibility to it, that's all. Thanks for trying to be supportive Star, but I'm afraid there have been some misunderstandings: Let me make this clear: I don't have a problem with big breasts. Never did. The character is not the issue here. I don't have a problem with Trader Jen. Never did. She's adorable! I don't have a problem with Lara Croft. Never did. For some reason Roland made his own assumptions that I did and hence his messages convey that All I want is for devs to remember to consider female players in the way they conduct themselves and how they present content. That's all.
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*scratches head* I'm clearly not communicating myself very well because it feels like what I'm trying to convey is not being heard or understood. It's like we speak different languages or are in two different parallel universes or something. It can happen to the best of us. Anyhow, I've said what I wanted to say and hopefully my message was understood by someone out there. Thanks for the discussion folks. Regardless of the kerfuffle, I'm still MEGA SUPER DUPER excited and hyped for A21. Let's doooo thiiiiiis!
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Here's how I imagine a dev stream should work: Devs agree upon a common goal and negotiate among themselves beforehand what they're going to show and why. They're also going to put at least some consideration into how the public may react to what they're going to show and make sure to do their checks and balances accordingly - beforehand. It is at this point that they should be asking themselves questions like: "Hmm, maybe not the best idea to show female player characters yet, since all we've got to show is the sexualized one? We don't want our female players to get the wrong idea and to feel undervalued and creeped out. Yeah, let's only show male player characters today and save the female models for later when we can give a much more balanced overview of the great work we've been doing." Had this discussion taken place, and had the devs explained very clearly on stream that: "We've got a whole bunch of cool player characters we'd like to share! Today we'll show you some of the work we've been doing with male player characters and show you the female characters at a later time, as the team is still hard at work getting them just right!" The result? Eeeeeeeeeeveryone would have been happy and no misunderstandings or misconceptions would have taken place. She was frickin' COOL! ALL of the characters were ah-maaaazing! INCLUDING THE TOMB RAIDER ONE. Yes, you heard right. Including the busty tomb raider! Although I personally think she'd look even sexier if her chest were a bit more natural and the flesh was relaxed a bit so that they don't look like two balloons about to pop. Just a wee bit! The problem is not about the fact that there is a sexy character. The point I'm so desperately trying to make is that the dev team don't put any consideration into how female players are going to perceive their status as valid and respected players by devs only showing a busty female player character. They should have saved it for later when they can show the whole set. They should have had the foresight to know what kind of ruckus this is going to cause. And on that note, the reason the raider has not been mentioned that much is because people are specifically talking about "player characters", not the NPCs. The emotions we feel about our player characters are on a whole different level than what we think about NPCs. Player characters are represent ourselves in the game. It's a hugely personal thing. And if all we see beforehand is a busty version for females, it gives an unintended impression. I completely understand your position Roland. You know the team. You know they're not bad guys. You know they don't have bad intentions. You see how much they work their butts off to please the players. You've seen it happen again and again, that the team work so very hard to make nice things for us, and all we do is gripe about this and complain about that. It's heartbreaking, because you know that in reality, all they ever wanted to do was make the players happy. I get it. I empathize. I've been a professional game developer since 2006 and I know what it's like to be on your side of the fence. I know how heart-crushing it is to face a bombardment of unappreciative and hugely entitled players. If only they knew how hard and complex it is to make a game! Since I know how that feels, I don't complain very often and I fully understand that behind every dev decision, there is most likely a very good and sensible reason why that choice was made. However this is the one moment where I felt like I needed to speak up. I'm passionate about 7 days. I want to see it thrive. I want to see female players feeling welcome and respected. I want the community to grow. Ya know, sometimes stuff has to be called out, and this was such a moment. Again it's not only about the female character, it's a lot of things that show lack of consideration of female players. And if people don't call this kind of thing out, how will they ever know there was a problem to begin with? How will they improve? How will the community grow into a more welcoming place for everyone? Listen, I don't think the team are lecherous. In fact, I'm absolutely sure that the majority of the team are absolute sweetie pies. I just think they're a bit clueless and tone deaf when it comes to how they present the game. It's easy to get carried away when you're bubbling with excitement for a new feature and you just know all the dudes are gonna go nuts when they see it. All I ask is for them to say to one another "Hey guys, let's remember our female players and how they will feel about this. Will this creep them out? Will this make them feel unwelcome?" Etc Right, well in this case then - the diplomatic and considerate thing would have been to wait to show any of the female "player" characters until they can share a broader assortment.
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Believe it or not, but I'm old school as well. A real and genuine Generation X granny in my mid 50's. We generation X:ers don't complain about AAAAANYTHING and a lot of us are watching in disbelief at how things have gone way overboard with the woke stuff. Mind you, wokeness IS needed and IS good in sensible and reasonable measures. But some of the extremes we've been seeing these past few years just boggle the mind. Then again, viewpoints on these sorts of things are completely subjective. So just because something feels ridiculous to me, doesn't mean it doesn't to someone else who is feeling real and genuine distress. Who am I to judge? So yeah, that's the background and culture I come from, and yet I STILL complained about this tone deafness issue - which means it's gotta be really bad. Heck, when did you guys ever see me whine and gripe before huh?
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Exactly THIS. And also the utter lack of consideration of how female players might feel: "Wow really? So this is what we got as a female character model? A sex object? Is this all we are to the devs? Are we not considered to be just as valuable and respected players?"
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The only thing players can base their perceptions and assumptions on, is what the devs choose to publicly reveal to us. It is those choices that I am critiquing. We players can't know about what goes on behind the scenes or how well intentioned they are. And for the record, I totally believe that none of the many things I listed were ever done with any malice towards female players. I'm sure most of those were merely thoughtlessness and being more focused on giving a cool experience to male players rather than realizing that those things might make female players feel unwelcome. And on that note, I would just like to say that that any interactions I've had with devs have been nothing but gracious, friendly and welcoming. I have been treated very well and have no personal agenda against them. But I'm annoyed about the tone deafness on behalf of female players in general. (and yes, I realize there are many females out there who don't see what the fuss is all about), but I'm speaking for those who ARE bothered. I often pondered whether I should make a video to explain all this stuff and send it privately to the team. But then this thread and the reaction to the art stream felt like the opportune moment to finally voice my thoughts. Even if it means that it will ruin any good relations I had already with the devs. Even if it means that I'm rejected from streamer weekend. Even if it means that I will lose any opportunity to ever apply to work for the company as an artist or POI designer. This is an important enough topic that I'm willing to sacrifice all of those things.
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Woohoo! 😄 I was guessing as much, but it actually makes it worse to know that they _could have_ chosen to show the hoarder female if they wanted to. But instead they chose the sexy one. And who were they catering to in that choice? Female players or the male audience? Definitely the male audience, giving no cares about how female players would feel. I was trying to figure out whether he seriously didn't understand the point or whether he was just trolling. Probably the latter. But thanks for going to the trouble to spell it out so I didn't have to. You understood the point precisely! The thing is, that if they had shown a NORMAL not-sexualized female character wearing underwear alongside the male one, there would be no problem what so ever! It would have totally softened the blow of the boobie character as well because female players would have seen that they will have a choice and that they won't be forced to be walking around looking like sex objects.
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Yeah double standards suck. We can't control how regular players are going to behave. People will be people and will say whatever they want regardless of gender - especially on the Internet. However, what can be improved is how devs choose to present themselves, their work, and how they speak to the player base. That's the main point I was trying to bring across.
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As someone who loves - streams - creates POIs for and creates content about the game - I'd just like to chime in as a female player who is a HUGE fan of 7 days. Just like all you gents out there, I TOO feel the same emotions, the same excitement, the same hype, the same anticipation as you do about everything 7 days. I TOO have been looking forward to these dev streams! Just like you, when they started showing the lineup of character art during the art dev stream, I too was sitting on the edge of my seat, excited to see what was coming. So then they started going through one model after another, the artist fondly talking about all the cool little details and Easter eggs he'd added to the male characters. I thought to myself "Oh daaaammmnnn, if the MALE characters are THIS cool, I can-not WAIT to see the female characters!" Then when he finally got around to showing them, I mean it - out of all the variations, he decided to show the "boobies busting out her top" variation. I wondered to myself: Was there a moment earlier in the day, where the devs discussed which variations to showcase on the stream? Were they saying things like: "Ok team, let's make sure to give some appreciation and love to our many female players out there and choose a really nice female player character to show them! They're gonna be so thrilled!" or... did they say: "Duuuuude! Let's show our boys some eye candy, why don't we!? They're gonna looove the rack on this desert character! *giggity*!" If they would have shown additional normal female characters, there wouldn't have been a problem! But that was it. Just the big boobies and then they moved on. Where were the female characters that had as much personality and attention to detail as say the packrat dude for instance? Where was a female character that "told a backstory". All we saw were just big solid implanted boobs. And then that was it. Nuttin' else. I have to admit: it was a deflating moment to say the least. Listen: Let me make something absolutely clear 'kay? I absolutely DO NOT mind a game having hottie outfits for female characters in games. God knows how many hours I invested hunting for the skanky outfits in Anarchy Online and WoW back in the day. I also don't mind the only female trader in the game being a cutie called Jen who flirts with me from time to time. I don't even mind the fact that there are SEVERAL strip joints in the game catering to the gents out there. Heck, 7 days wouldn't be the same without the rough humor. I luvs it! (although, I wouldn't mind seeing a "The Stud Farm", "The Muscle Mansion", "The Beefcake Bungalow" or a "Hunk Haven" POI appear for us ladies one of these days. POI designers: Make it happen! You know you wanna! What I do mind however is the at-times deaf tone and clueless attitudes in regards to making female players feel appreciated, included and welcomed. I remember when I started playing 7 days, one of the first things I noticed was that the traders addressed my female character as if she were a man. Then I remember the first time I saw Joel on stream... Honest question: What's the ONE THING your eyes zap to when he's on screen? The naked lady painting on his wall. I mean my god, it's a frickin' gorgeous painting, it really is! But that's beside the point. What makes this problematic is that a) It's highly unprofessional and has no place on a dev stream b) It creates a horn-dog-buzz amongst the male chatters and this can feel disturbing for female players just trying to focus on the information. In the very least, it would be considerate if devs could at least avoid reacting to comments about the painting and just choose to focus on one of the other hundreds of comments that are actually about the dev stuff instead. When devs react to comments about the painting, it's like validating the horn dogs in chat and saying "Hey dudes, it's absolutely fine that you continue chatting about naked ladies. We don't need to care about how our female audience will feel or whether they will be creeped out or unwelcome!" Devs should be better than that, and lead by example. Instead of encouraging that sort of behavior. There will be those of you who say: "Female players don't matter since the target audience is and always has been male" - Choosing a target audience is fine. But it can still be done in such way that doesn't make literally half of the population feel excluded and unwelcome at the same time. Besides, look at how many female streamers there are that stream this game. Isn't it time that females became a valued and respected part of the target audience? At the end of the day, none of the things I mentioned are very serious or disturbing on their own, the problem is how it all starts to add up. A real shame as this game has so much potential to be enjoyed by everyone equally.
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KatsPurr started following TFP_Desiree
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KatsPurr started following Prefab Editor (Alpha)
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