Alpha 21 Dev Diary

[RipClaw]

12 hours ago, meilodasreh said:

The new system does encourage looting more, but still has to balance between all the aspects,

because in single player you just have to do them all to survive...and of course this variety of different aspects is mostly what makes the fun in the game.

I wouldn't call it encouraging if you don't have a real alternative. I know the trader will also sell magazines but it probably won't be more than a handful and certainly much less than you get by looting.

 

And it's not like you have to do all of it as a single player to survive. In fact, only looting and killing zombies are activities where you have no choice. Activities like building, mining and farming are rather optional and are often neglected or ignored by players. I personally think it's very sad that these aspects are not more important because I enjoy them very much.

 

[Jost Amman]

19 minutes ago, Grue said:

Now that you mention it, I have hated the zombie AI since A17. 

Please bring back the zombies that actually act like zombies instead of the conga line of structural engineers who magically detect and path to the weakest block.

It was far less predicable and exploitable when the zombies would just swarm in waves and start beating on random parts of your walls. Now all horde bases are basically identical because the zombies are too "smart" for their own good.

I'm sure Crater will get right on that.

I think you bought the wrong game then... did you miss the part about "tower defense" elements? That's exactly how monsters behave in a TD game, so unless you want them to also change this game's sub-genre, I suggest you adapt your gameplay to it.

 

19 minutes ago, Grue said:

No more "Jackpot!" moments from getting lucky with a forge schematic on day 1,

Or debating spending points to get the recipe you need vs waiting for the next trade day to try to buy one. 

The RNG for schematics may have been fickle at times, but it also made every play though unique.

And for most things there was a fall back of spending points to get what you could not find.

I partially agree on the "less RNG" part, but not about the "Jackpot!" moment. I expect we'll loot many more magazines, and each one will bring us nearer to our goal, so the moment I'll find the last one I need to reach the specific schematics I'm interested in, it WILL be a Jackpot moment.  

 

What they did is remove the frustration of having RNG work against you too much, and they also rewarded "smart looting". In A21, in fact, we'll have themed containers in themed POIs, so when you need to hunt for a specific set of magazines, you can plan an expedition to (e.g.) Pass and Gas and try to find schematics for vehicles.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

23 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

You can buy concrete and workstations at a trader pretty easily, then you're set.

The amount of concrete you get from the trader is very small and extremely overpriced. As for the workstations, it is random whether the trader has them or not. I think it is trader Bob where you have a better chance.

 

36 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

But my point is you can still do A LOT just by standing there just building. That's already fairly OP and unbalanced, IMO... what other game lets you have everything by basically doing nothing? This is becoming preposterous, it's like communism, where people who do more and have merit, get the same treatment as those who do nothing at all.

If you call building doing nothing, you have never really built. I am currently working on a horde base. So far, I've spent an estimated 30,000 concrete and about 10,000 steel on the build. I didn't just snap my finger and the materials were there. I had to mine and process them.

 

[Jost Amman]

43 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

If you call building doing nothing, you have never really built. I am currently working on a horde base. So far, I've spent an estimated 30,000 concrete and about 10,000 steel on the build. I didn't just snap my finger and the materials were there. I had to mine and process them.

Com'on, you know what I mean... you're better than that.

[EggsAisle]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

I haven't played Green Hell or Long Dark. In Raft you are literally floating in water but do you know what you don't have on day one? 30 empty jars to fill up with with water that is drinkable from day one. You can inform me about Long Dark or Green Hell. Do those games allow you to load up on all the water you need for the foreseeable future from the first moments of the game? I've watched people play Long Dark and I am pretty sure your inventory is more limited than 7 Days to Die but can you build up an easily accessible stash of stack and stack of water from all that snow like you can in 7 Days to Die? I don't think so. I think you're superficially naming games that have a lot of water but don't actually allow the player to have unlimited access to it all right from the day one. I know for sure you can't with raft. Surrounded by sea water we might be but that doesn't translate to day one drinkable water surplus all around.

 

 

Getting potable water in The Long Dark isn't difficult, but it takes valuable time, consumes fire-building material, and is quite heavy. It's really more about opportunity cost than anything else; it's not difficult to do, but you have to do it, and that will impose a limit on other things you can accomplish. You could boil up a month's worth of potable water and stash it someplace, but it quickly becomes inefficient, in a game where using your time/resources wisely is basically the entire point. Plus, traversal is a different beast in TLD; it is entirely possible to spend weeks or months far away from your main base. Really great game, I highly recommend it. Very different approach than 7DTD, though.

 

Incidentally, you can also get drinkable water by looting toilet tanks! But those are finite, and I've never found a pistol there...

 

 

[Grue]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I never said I didn't know the historical reference. I said I didn't get what you mean by it in the context of the game and gathering water. How about you just say what you mean plainly.

 

It is a moot point now, but since you asked.

I suggested it would be better to simply keep water collection the way it currently is.

You listed all the other less preferable ways to obtain water and then acted like that addressed my concern, which it didn't.

That gave the impression that you either completely missed the point or were deliberately talking around it.

 

We would not need to loot water, if we could collect water as we always have.

We would not need to buy water, if we could collect water as we always have.

We would not need a dew catcher, if we could collect water as we always have.

Thus none of those solutions are appreciably better than simply maintaining the status quo.

 

Or to put it another way, the changes appear contrived, add needless complexity, and do not appreciably improve the game.

 

[meganoth]

28 minutes ago, Grue said:

 

It is a moot point now, but since you asked.

I suggested it would be better to simply keep water collection the way it currently is.

You listed all the other less preferable ways to obtain water and then acted like that addressed my concern, which it didn't.

That gave the impression that you either completely missed the point or were deliberately talking around it.

 

We would not need to loot water, if we could collect water as we always have.

We would not need to buy water, if we could collect water as we always have.

We would not need a dew catcher, if we could collect water as we always have.

Thus none of those solutions are appreciably better than simply maintaining the status quo.

 

Or to put it another way, the changes appear contrived, add needless complexity, and do not appreciably improve the game.

 

 

Naturally all other options are not appreciably better than the overpowered method.

 

In the sense that a survival game has you hunting for scarce resources mostly, getting unlimited water anytime is overpowered. And what surprise, players like overpowered methods.

 

Remember when the fireaxe was a melee weapon as good as any other AND able to chop wood, saving you a belt slot? Many players loved it and there were complaints when the axe was nerfed. Remember the arrow slits that zombies could not traverse at all? Many players loved it and simply made unbreakable bases on horde night. And complained that the obvious bug was fixed.

 

Overpowered items and methods for a game are like sweets for a child. The child will cry and not understand that they are taken away from him, but it is better for it in the long run.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

11 hours ago, Roland said:

No...for whatever reason they think you must be strong in order to mine well. The audacity!

 

Well, kinda nullifies all the changes for Strength not beeing a must anymore, wich is the argument for those changes it seems?  Not beeing forced to use a certain attribute anymore? Because honestly, how many people do play without any points in mining in SP? Heck even in MP most people put 1 or 2 points in mining, to be faster when opening chests and breaking down barriers. So yeah, strength is still a must then. In SP you are incredibly slow without going for at leat 3 points into miner69er and MP get´s kinda annoying too after a while with no points in mining, even if you don´t mine at all.

Edited January 11, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

12 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Propably already been answered and/or discussed or i missed the answer, but i just realized that strength is still a must in A21 unless you want to spend a lot more time on mining than necessary? So nothing really changes with strength if playing SP.

 

Unless every attribute also get´s a mining skill like planned with flurry of blows.

 

There might be a small change. For any single player who is not primarily a builder the auger is the low-stamina alternative to the steel-axe. And with magazines a player now has a dependable path to crafting an auger.

Sure, you will only get out about half (?) of what a dedicated miner gets out of the earth even with auger, but that is more than enough to build bases. In the early game you still have to use much more time than a miner to get basic materials.

 

What I usually see with my group is that we have a miner and our boxes are overflowing with materials and our base is completely built from steel relatively early in the game. We could very well do the same with much less.

 

 

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth The auger? Really? It´s early to mid game when i need to save time when mining. Not when i am able to build an auger and already have bases set up for both living and horde. Also gunpowder. Mining is by no means only for builders.

Edited January 11, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

3 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth The auger? Really? It´s early to mid game when i need to save time when mining. Not when i am able to build an auger and already have a base set up for both living and horde. Also gunpowder. Mining is by no means only for builders.

 

Good point with the ammo. At least for non-AGI players. I also noticed that gunpowder is relatively cheap at the trader. Lately I got into the habit of buying it there whenever I see it.

 

In SP I have most often played AGI, but never needed to put more points into miner than 1 or 2. And that isn't much different from other trees where a single player usually puts some points into Living of the land and Advanced Engineering.

 

The counter-question: Have you ever tried SP without maxing miner?

 

 

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Com'on, you know what I mean... you're better than that.

Well, maybe you should write what you mean.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Good point with the ammo. At least for non-AGI players. I also noticed that gunpowder is relatively cheap at the trader. Lately I got into the habit of buying it there whenever I see it.

 

In SP I have most often played AGI, but never needed to put more points into miner than 1 or 2. And that isn't much different from other trees where a single player usually puts some points into Living of the land and Advanced Engineering.

 

The counter-question: Have you ever tried SP without maxing miner?

 

 

 

Yeah. It´s annoying af for me having no or only low mining skill and it gets me into trouble preparing for bloodmoon usually. Even when playing AGI, gunpowder is an issue when having larger hordes during bloodmoon on higher difficulties. No way i can buy all that gun powder. Especially when i have no mining skills and waste time due to that.

Edited January 11, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Yeah. It´s annoying af for me having no or only low mining skill and it gets me into trouble preparing for bloodmoon usually. Even when playing AGI, gunpowder is an issue when having larger hordes during bloodmoon on higher difficulties. No way i can buy all that gun powder. Especially when i have no mining skills and waste time due to that.

 

2 points in miner69er and motherlode both is not "no mining skills" and easily achievbable without specializing into strength. And by increasing hordes you also surely leave the balanced "area" and may have to adapt with modding.

 

But I think I agree mostly that this part of the game may need more balance. Because

1) Tools are also central methods to break walls, doors, resource heaps and safes in POIs. Who needs lockpicking?

2) Three, in A21 only two perks that multiply their effect in mining is maybe too much difference between unskilled/slightly skilled and skilled.

 

An easy balance method would be to reduce miner69 and motherlode both to go to max 4 perk points or reduce both their buffs per perk step, i.e. making them less effective (and increasing the base effect, i.e. for no mining skills).

Additionally iron tools stamina usage could be decreased a bit to make it the viable mid-game tool for non-miners.

 

I think TFP will wait how the sexrex change plays out in A21 before doing anything more. They have telemetry, they will know when in A21 still too many people go into strength for the miner perks.

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

 I said no or low mining skill. @meganoth Both is annoying for me. Well we will see what A22 brings. Unless they nerfed the club and or bow, strength/agi is the way to go anyways. No matter the changes tbh. Although the spear changes look promising.

Edited January 11, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

I am only half guilty, I was refering to this:

 

1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Especially when i have no mining skills and waste time due to that.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

And i just realized there is also master chef. The more i think about some perks, like salvage operations for example wich is oddly placed at perception tbh, if anything it should be tied to agility. the more i think there should be a category of perks not related to any attribute.

 

 

[lord_ahriman]

22 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

2 points in miner69er and motherlode both is not "no mining skills" and easily achievbable without specializing into strength. And by increasing hordes you also surely leave the balanced "area" and may have to adapt with modding.

 

But I think I agree mostly that this part of the game may need more balance. Because

1) Tools are also central methods to break walls, doors, resource heaps and safes in POIs. Who needs lockpicking?

2) Three, in A21 only two perks that multiply their effect in mining is maybe too much difference between unskilled/slightly skilled and skilled.

 

An easy balance method would be to reduce miner69 and motherlode both to go to max 4 perk points or reduce both their buffs per perk step, i.e. making them less effective (and increasing the base effect, i.e. for no mining skills).

Additionally iron tools stamina usage could be decreased a bit to make it the viable mid-game tool for non-miners.

 

I think TFP will wait how the sexrex change plays out in A21 before doing anything more. They have telemetry, they will know when in A21 still too many people go into strength for the miner perks.

 

 

The only way they could change "people not going strength for the mining perks" is getting more buffs from another source, like Rock Busters, in a more reliable way, for example a meal giving something like 10% harvesting. At the same time, it would make farming even more important and in my opinion that would be a really nice change.

Edited January 11, 2023 by lord_ahriman (see edit history)

[zztong]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

I think you're superficially naming games that have a lot of water but don't actually allow the player to have unlimited access to it all right from the day one.

 

Just for clarity...

 

I've not played Green Hell, but in the Long Dark you are surrounded by water in the form of snow (and a lake depending on your start). You have to prepare it. This will require a fire and you'll need the resources and skill to start a fire, plus a favorable environment. I believe what they're trying to show you is that while H2O is easily available, it doesn't represent potable water or easy access to usable water.

 

In 7D2D, preparation of potable water is easy and painless, thus why you say "infinite water" and don't draw the distinction between "infinite murky water" and "infinite water."

 

It's pretty clear TFP has made a different design decision related to the preparation of potable water. The Long Dark isn't super realistic either, but they did focus on more detail in the survival elements and because of it they get a lengthier period of game challenge in that regard.

Edited January 11, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)

[ajlan]

When will A21 come out?

Edited January 11, 2023 by ajlan (see edit history)

[Laran Mithras]

Just saying, I prefer an endless "Early Access." Many games get "finished" and the devs move on: prompting players to claim the game was "abandoned."

 

I rather enjoy having ongoing dev-attention; it's almost like an MMO without the subscription. Pretty much guaranteed new content and updates forever. Until the game is called finished... and then nothing. No complaints here. coughnewcharactermodelscough

[Jost Amman]

5 hours ago, RipClaw said:

6 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

But my point is you can still do A LOT just by standing there just building. That's already fairly OP and unbalanced, IMO... what other game lets you have everything by basically doing nothing? This is becoming preposterous, it's like communism, where people who do more and have merit, get the same treatment as those who do nothing at all.

If you call building doing nothing, you have never really built. I am currently working on a horde base. So far, I've spent an estimated 30,000 concrete and about 10,000 steel on the build. I didn't just snap my finger and the materials were there. I had to mine and process them.

I thought I was clear, but since you replied this way, I'll clarify.

 

Building is actually one of the activities in 7D2D which doesn't require perking into something to do it and progress in it.

This means that to start building, up to cobblestone, you literally have to do nothing to earn it.

 

You wanna make a forge? Need to perk into it.

You wanna a craft a vehicle? Need to perk into it.

You get what I mean (I hope).

 

On top of that, mining + building is one of those activities that already give you TONS of XP just by doing something repetitive and (mostly) safe.

 

People that go out and loot in POIs and around cities, are constantly under threat and risk their (virtual) lives, while those who stay "at home" mining and building, only may risk something when the occasional wandering horde come by. But that's expected, so they can easily be prepared for them and be basically still safe.

 

So, please, don't tell me how hard it is to build a base with 30K concrete and 10K steel, because that's not hard, that's expensive, a BIG difference in meaning.

Also, that kind of base you're talking about is something that the average player can't do before week 3 or even 4, so it's a mid-game issue only.

 

Can you dig it?

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[Professor-Pip]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

 

In the case of friends the magazines are different than past books we've had in the game. Currently it makes sense to read any books I find and simply take duplicate books home for my buddies to read. But with the new magazines, that is completely inefficient and counterproductive. If I read a magazine and you read the same magazine and someone else reads the same magazine then all three of us are at level one and can still only craft the lowest tier. But if we all give our magazines to one person to read (doesn't matter who) then that one person can craft at level three and make better stuff for all of us.

 

@Roland, are you saying that the new magazine system no longer has different volumes? So, no “Art of Mining Vol 1-7” but just “Art of Mining”? And re-reading the “Art of Mining” will get you more levels in mining, for instance? Interesting. 

[meilodasreh]

9 hours ago, Aldranon said:

With the presupposition that the player is in a fevered dream fighting off the zombie virus, probably in a hospital (not required, but a solid wink to "The Walking Dead" series), everything makes sense!

[...]

Anyway, fuel for thought.

So you did read that book "life of Pi" right?

7 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Why, of all skills, is building not one of those skills you have to learn?

It is. You just skip the tutorial and also don't read the tooltips and loading screen infos any more, because you're a pro now (congrats btw)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Jost Amman Because screamers totally aren´t a thing when mining, right?