WHY do? High Level weapons have WORSE range/projectile speed than lower level ones?!?

[uncle7am]

WHY (the F) do High Level weapons have WORSE range/projectile speed than lower level ones?!?

 

Pardon my french - but am i the only one who finds this 'pattern' to weapon stat RNG... Super frustrating?

 

If you (like me) have 'OCD' or 'min/max' tendencies have you ended up spending (too?) much time comparing weapon stats? How much fun is that?

 

'On paper' - I like the idea of weapon stat RNG. In previous alphas the implementation was even more frustrating though (quite often finding lvl 6 weapons being just worse than lvl 5's or even 4's or lower). A20 seems to have brought some 'streamlining' to weapon RNG. Which is very nice! Generally it seems either a weapon is better - or worse. Out with the old - In with the new.

 

However ONE pattern seems to remain. Lower lvl 'long range type' weapons will - quite consistently - have BETTER range... Than higher level ones. (For Bows it's higher projectile speed). Which doesn't make any sense if you try to 'logic' it. A weapon of higher quality that somehow does more damage - Would also shoot LONGER?... And be more precise? No?

'Logic' aside... To me - it's very frustrating again and again finding lvl 6 weapons that have this 'caveat' to them. Spending lots of time comparing stats. Filling boxes with 'variants' of weapons... Is not that great game-play. I suppose i could just not care... But i can't help myself 😛  #Fun-Pimps-pls-help!

 

[Ramethzer0]

Oh look, another first time poster, trying to go after realism in video games.

Edited January 21, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[elektrohund]

Why would a higher quality AK deal more damage to begin with? It's all video game logic if you really think about it. Now if you wanted to make range scale linearly with quality I think it would be pretty easy to make a modlet for that

[Sjustus548]

I like the RNG system they have for weapons stats.  It's nice to have a Q6 weapon and still have to look at the stats of a new one I find to see if it is better or not.  We changed it so we can craft Q6 stuff on our server and it makes it nice to be able to craft something to see if we can get a better version than what we already have.  I do wish that the possible stat ranges were easier to read and figure out what the min/max values were though.  Hopefully someone will be able to make a chart or something showing us.  The order I put the stats in, well the stats I can remember currently lol, are damage, amount of ammo it holds, then shot speed and range are at the bottom because they aren't near as important as the other two.  If it has higher damage and you aren't losing too many rounds than it is obviously better.  The other stats are just a tiny bonus to me.

[BFT2020]

Max range doesn't change on weapons, but the fall off damage range does have randomization for it

 

 <passive_effect name="MaxRange" operation="base_set" value="150" tags="perkDeadEye"/>

<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="base_set" value="70" tags="perkDeadEye"/>

<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="perc_add" value="-.2,.2" tags="perkDeadEye"/> <!-- random effective rng -->

 

All of these randomizations are independent (so even if you roll max for entityDamage, DamageFalloffRange will still roll between -0.2 and 0.2 perc of the base)

 

Also, none of this is tied into the quality level of the weapon.  The randomization will be the same for Q1 weapons compared to Q6 weapons.  I don't think you have acquired a large enough sample size to state that lower weapons will consistently be longer range as a fact.  Your small sample size might be consistent in that regards, but overall, you will see a normal distribution of randomization.

 

If you don't like the randomization, you can simply remove anything in the items file that has random in the comments section.  Then everything you find in the game will be average values.

 

Logic tends to go away when you encounter your first zombie.

2 minutes ago, elektrohund said:

Why would a higher quality AK deal more damage to begin with? It's all video game logic if you really think about it. Now if you wanted to make range scale linearly with quality I think it would be pretty easy to make a modlet for that

 

Yes

 

it would probably look something like this (minus the xpath coding to insert it properly)

 

        <passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="perc_add" value="0.0,0.5" tier="1,6"/>

 

Would have to test it out to be sure, but it should scale linear as your quality increases from Q1 to Q6

[eXSe]

Sorry to say it like this, but that seems a lot like a *you* problem 🙂

 

I don't even compare a lower tier to a higher one, I just look at it like a mod slot extra.

 

Also, the idea of min maxing in 7D2D, especially with weapons, is a bit ridiculous to me. I mean does a meter or two of range mean anything, or a point or two of damage?

[theFlu]

1 hour ago, eXSe said:

I mean does a meter or two of range mean anything, or a point or two of damage?

Now you're just triggering us on purpose.

I mean, no, a point of damage doesn't mean a thing, and yes, I will swap my BDU top for the one with +0.2 heat resistance.

[Gamida]

To tell the truth I also liked it when a higher level weapon would shoot further, hold more ammo, last longer and do more damage than the same weapon of a lower level. Just made it easier for me. I don't mind if same level weapons had varying stats but a higher level one should just be overall better. Even if not by much. Same with clothes and tools.

[BFT2020]

51 minutes ago, Gamida said:

To tell the truth I also liked it when a higher level weapon would shoot further, hold more ammo, last longer and do more damage than the same weapon of a lower level. Just made it easier for me. I don't mind if same level weapons had varying stats but a higher level one should just be overall better. Even if not by much. Same with clothes and tools.

 

That would be easy to do also if you wanted to.  You could leave the random damage modifiers in the file but add additional lines like:

 

<passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="base_add" value="0,10" tier="1,6"/>

or change the original line from:

        <passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="base_set" value="70" tags="perkDeadEye"/>

to this:

        <passive_effect name="DamageFalloffRange" operation="base_set" value="70,80" tier="1,6" tags="perkDeadEye"/>

 

This would add 2 additional units of guaranteed range as the quality improves.  You could do that with all the random variables.  Right now the only things that improve based on durability are the number of mod slots, both entity and block damage, and max durability.

[Boidster]

I checked the creative menu's...I dunno..."template" guns?...and it was kinda odd that Q1-Q5 snipers had effective range ramping up, but at Q6 it plummeted back below Q1 level. The CM isn't random so only a large in-game test can really see if something is amiss, but I did find it peculiar.

[theFlu]

23 minutes ago, Boidster said:

The CM isn't random

I think it was random between game loads in A19, just rolled once upon loading. If still so, might just be oddities of luck.

 

EDIT: Sod that. Seems it is random per search now. Not only that, I could also repro. Snipers from 1 to 5 increased from about 60 to 80, then 6:s were at 60 again ..

Edited January 21, 2022 by theFlu (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

10 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I checked the creative menu's...I dunno..."template" guns?...and it was kinda odd that Q1-Q5 snipers had effective range ramping up, but at Q6 it plummeted back below Q1 level. The CM isn't random so only a large in-game test can really see if something is amiss, but I did find it peculiar.

 

Very!  We know that damage should stay consistent as the CM guns are not suppose to be applying that random variation (just applying the increased based on quality level), and effective range should not be affected by quality levels at all based on the xml code.  If there is changes based on quality levels to effective range, it is somewhere else that I am not seeing.

 

I already got a special loot file that replaces everything with compound bows that I am planning on data gathering this weekend.  Wouldn't be too difficult to swap the item out and repeat with the T3 sniper rifle.

 

God I just realized how much of an engineer I am to the core if I am looking forward to doing two sets of data gathering over a weekend.

[uncle7am]

Very happy to report (just about 18 months after the OP) :

 

A21.1 b16 seems to have finally fixed or gotten rid of this odd 'pattern'. From the patch notes:

-  "Updated progression for Effective Range and Max Durability stats for tools and weapons"

-  "Updated stats on all armor for linear progression"

 

Had a box with 'samples' of Q2, Q3, Q4 and Q6 Hunting Rifles looted prior to the update... (That all followed the LOWEST lvl had HIGHEST range pattern) ... And CAN CONFIRM: The stats 'magically' changed inside the box... And now follow a 'logical' pattern. Higher level means BETTER range.

... And there was much rejoicing! .... Yeaaa! 🏁 🏳️ 🎌

[Krougal]

I absolutely hate the random too, same reason, I was just ranting about it the other day somewhere.

I had modded it out since A20 and updated it for latest A21 since I noticed it threw an error when they removed those values this patch. There are still some left.

I also consider being able to craft QL6 a no brainer if we are even going to attempt to make crafting competetive with questing so it's all done from the same file actually it's a different mod, this makes all QL have 3 or 4 mod slots. I'm still tinkering with the clothing values, I set them all to max, but I am thinking I may set them to average. The weapons it would have been too much trouble so I just removed those lines. The armor was such a small range, although it would be trivial to do similar as the clothing since they all use the same value, and it is on like everything but padded and scrap armor.

 

<Krougal>
<!-- Give maximum mod slots to all QL -->
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@name, 'ModSlots')][@value='1,1,1,2,2,3']/@value">3,3,3,3,3,3</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@name, 'ModSlots')][@value='1,1,2,2,3,4']/@value">4,4,4,4,4,4</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@name, 'ModSlots')][@value='2,2,2,3,3,4']/@value">4,4,4,4,4,4</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@name, 'ModSlots')][@value='2,2,3,3,4,4']/@value">4,4,4,4,4,4</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[contains(@name, 'ModSlots')][@value='3,3,3,4,4,4']/@value">4,4,4,4,4,4</set>	
<!-- remove random bonus from armor -->
	<remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='PhysicalDamageResist') and (@operation='base_add') and not(@tier='1,6')][@value='-.2,.2']"/>
<!-- remove random bonus from weapons -->
    <remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='EntityDamage') and (@operation='perc_add') and not(@tier='2,6') and not(@tags='secondary')]"/>
    <remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='BlockDamage') and (@operation='perc_add') and not(@tier='2,6') and not(@tags='secondary')]"/>
    <remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='DamageFalloffRange') and (@operation='perc_add') and not(@tier='2,6') and not(@tags='secondary')]"/>
    <remove xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='WeaponHandling') and (@operation='perc_add') and not(@tier='2,6') and not(@tags='secondary')]"/>
<!-- Clothing, de-randomize heat & cold resist -->
<!-- Cold resist -->
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='21.5,25.5']/@value">25.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='2.8,5.2']/@value">5.2</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='6.5,9.5']/@value">9.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='1.8,4.2']/@value">4.2</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='10.5,13.2']/@value">13.2</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='4.8,7.2']/@value">7.2</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='7.2,10.8']/@value">10.8</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='13.5,17.5']/@value">17.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='21.5,26.5']/@value">26.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HypothermalResist')][@value='11.7,15.5']/@value">15.5</set>
<!-- Heat resist -->
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='1.5,2.5']/@value">2.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='5.5,8.5']/@value">8.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='1,3.5']/@value">3.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='10.5,14.3']/@value">14.3</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='7.5,10.5']/@value">10.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='3.5,4.5']/@value">4.5</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='6.8,9.2']/@value">9.2</set>
	<set xpath="/items/item/effect_group/passive_effect[(@name='HyperthermalResist')][@value='17.5,22.5']/@value">22.5</set>

</Krougal>

 

Edited August 15, 2023 by Krougal (see edit history)

[Blaster_Yoda]

CM has randomized every aspect of armor, clothing and weapons for a long time. Luck of the draw, not a real fan of the ranges in vanilla but it is what it is. I don't see the spawn tables being completely rewritten to balance out higher for higher teirs. Been this way for quite some time.

[warmer]

Coming in a lil hot dontcha think...

[Old Crow]

1 hour ago, warmer said:

Coming in a lil hot dontcha think...

 

They certainly came in hot.. a year ago when the topic was created.

[ElCabong]

This is my pet peeve for bows.

I made a quality level two primitive bow that did more damage than the quality level 3 bow and did more damage than the quality level 4 bow AND DID MORE damage than the quality level 5 bow. 

The quality level 5 bow only has two slots.

 

At least when I finally got to the wooden bow it did more damage and had better projectile velocity.

 

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by ElCabong (see edit history)

[Krougal]

40 minutes ago, ElCabong said:

This is my pet peeve for bows.

I made a quality level two primitive bow that did more damage than the quality level 3 bow and did more damage than the quality level 4 bow AND DID MORE damage than the quality level 5 bow. 

The quality level 5 bow only has two slots.

 

At least when I finally got to the wooden bow it did more damage and had better projectile velocity.

 

 

Yeah, I hate that too. That was what I started with, I made all QL have the max slots (so 3 for T0 and 4 for everything else).

Then I got rid of the random. I did wind up changing the clothing stats to the average value instead of the max; all max just made temperature completely irrelevant.

[Crashtian]

When do you even need to shoot far in this game? the zombies spawn in range of almost every ranged weapon.

[Uncle Al]

Just as an aside, when comparing a 'new' bow with the one you currently have, make sure you change them both to the same ammo type first.

 

New bows come set at default stone ammo, and as you're probably using at least iron from fairly early on in the game, a Q5 primative bow will look worse than a Q2 when you first pick it up if you're using iron arrows in the Q2.