I finally found a way to make the game interesting

[Roland]

 

3 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

Can you quickly point me out which xml file has that zombie vision value? There's still a full month or so until A20 lands, so id like to fiddle around with this. Or maybe just drop a link to another thread if this already has been asked before. Thanks!

 

Not quickly.  If I have time tonight I can look for it but I suspect someone will show you. I'm pretty sure it is a property listed under the main zombie male in the entities xml folder that is then extended to the other zombies. I'm at school already this morning so can't check. Maybe someone else can toss the ball back to us...

 

Edited September 29, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[TWORDY]

I may look forward to changes proposed:

 

Possibility to determine the minimum and a maximum number of traders and their visibility on the map.

 

Specialized traders - players choices might become more randomized, the gameplay is naturally longer, even more difficult - fun or frustration inducing factor of the game that depends solely on personal preferences and the idea of game balance - the items have to be more meaningful than it is now in such scenario.

 

Option to punish severely the player on death in the server/map settings.

 

Option to have "1 life" or "dead is dead", possibility to "resurrect - for complete chickens in certain scenarios", - but issue a visible warning to a player that may go mental over his death.

 

Additional settings may bring some challenge to players who have been playing 7DTD for 5+ years alongside the "progression" and "grind curve".

[bachgaman]

3 hours ago, TWORDY said:

I may look forward to changes proposed:

 

Possibility to determine the minimum and a maximum number of traders and their visibility on the map.

 

Specialized traders - players choices might become more randomized, the gameplay is naturally longer, even more difficult - fun or frustration inducing factor of the game that depends solely on personal preferences and the idea of game balance - the items have to be more meaningful than it is now in such scenario.

 

Option to punish severely the player on death in the server/map settings.

 

Option to have "1 life" or "dead is dead", possibility to "resurrect - for complete chickens in certain scenarios", - but issue a visible warning to a player that may go mental over his death.

 

Additional settings may bring some challenge to players who have been playing 7DTD for 5+ years alongside the "progression" and "grind curve".

This is all very cool, but most users will not understand this until it appears in the announcement. It is customary to eat what they give. So good luck with the xml files and mods

[Roland]

18 hours ago, Kyonshi said:

Can you quickly point me out which xml file has that zombie vision value? There's still a full month or so until A20 lands, so id like to fiddle around with this. Or maybe just drop a link to another thread if this already has been asked before. Thanks!

 

In entityclasses.xml looking in the basic malezombie AI Targets and Tasks there is this line that you might try playing around with:

 

<property name="AITarget-4" value="SetNearestEntityAsTarget" data="class=EntityPlayer,0,0,EntityNPC,0,0"/> <!-- class, hear distance, see dist (checked left to right, 0 dist uses entity default) -->

 

So class=EntityPlayer,50,30 would make it so the zombies could hear the player from 50 blocks away and see the player from 30 blocks away I'm assuming.

 

The list of classes that can be made into targets for the AI is:

 

<!--Classes for AITarget:
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalRabbit"/> and chicken
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalStag"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBackpack"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBandit"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityEnemyAnimal"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityLootContainer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityMinibike"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityNPC"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityPlayer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyCrate"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyPlane"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySurvivor"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityVulture"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombie"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieCop"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieDog"/>

 

So you could conceivably make the zombies chase animals and other things by adding them with commas keeping in mind that their hearing and sight is checked vs entities in the list from left to right.

[Kyonshi]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

In entityclasses.xml looking in the basic malezombie AI Targets and Tasks there is this line that you might try playing around with:

 

<property name="AITarget-4" value="SetNearestEntityAsTarget" data="class=EntityPlayer,0,0,EntityNPC,0,0"/> <!-- class, hear distance, see dist (checked left to right, 0 dist uses entity default) -->

 

So class=EntityPlayer,50,30 would make it so the zombies could hear the player from 50 blocks away and see the player from 30 blocks away I'm assuming.

 

The list of classes that can be made into targets for the AI is:

 

<!--Classes for AITarget:
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalRabbit"/> and chicken
        <property name="Class" value="EntityAnimalStag"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBackpack"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityBandit"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityEnemyAnimal"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityLootContainer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityMinibike"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityNPC"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityPlayer"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyCrate"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySupplyPlane"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntitySurvivor"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityVulture"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombie"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieCop"/>
        <property name="Class" value="EntityZombieDog"/>

 

So you could conceivably make the zombies chase animals and other things by adding them with commas keeping in mind that their hearing and sight is checked vs entities in the list from left to right.

Thank you very much for putting this up Roland.

[Ramethzer0]

I used King Gen to create 90% wasteland map, with no traders.

 

I'm on day 3, and Holy bawls...  this is some rough living.  It kinda brings me back the memories of A16.4.

Without the initial trader and the lack of long distance visibility, I have no freakin clue how to orient myself.

This... is.. interestingly brutal to say the least.

 

And some might remember that I @%$#ed about first night ferals for a few posts, but I got not one but three of them right after another.  Then 3 zombie bears, and a freakin wight shortly after.  Arrows are.. at a premium here for sure. 

Edited September 30, 2021 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[TWORDY]

I`m not sure if it`s a good idea but just my thought - what if a trader is only available after surviving the first wave, or when the player reaches a certain reputation or level. In such a "postponed scenario" a player will solely focus on survival aspects for some time. This might be a fun factor for some.

[Aldranon]

7D2D is a specific type of survival game and it seems that its not exactly for you.

There are many games that are different enough that might be more appealing to you.

 

One game is free and was made in 17 days on a bet (basically).  Not an overarching survival game but more of a shooter.  It's surprisingly good for the time invested.

 

Oh right. the name is: 死寂 Deathly Stillness

The 死寂 is basically resaying the title:  Die Quiet

[bachgaman]

On 10/3/2021 at 9:16 AM, Aldranon said:

7D2D is a specific type of survival game and it seems that its not exactly for you.

There are many games that are different enough that might be more appealing to you.

 

One game is free and was made in 17 days on a bet (basically).  Not an overarching survival game but more of a shooter.  It's surprisingly good for the time invested.

 

Oh right. the name is: 死寂 Deathly Stillness

The 死寂 is basically resaying the title:  Die Quiet

Survival in a game where there is no punishment for death, but there is a reward? Survival in a game where you don't get the penalty of hunger and thirst? Survival in a game where a pipe bomb, which is made for the cost of 1 hit of a pickaxe, is able to stop any enemy? Survival in a game where you are given 600 bullets a day from day one? What are you talking about?

 

Sorry, but even Muck is a more survival game, while 7 days to die tries to please everyone and the result is a mess from which you can only make content by resorting to modding and manual file editing. If you think the vanilla version of the game is survival, then I have bad news for you. This game is great, but it's not about survival. And the developers are clearly moving in the wrong direction. They indulge everything except the survival aspect and everyone who comes into it for the sake of survival will be disappointed (except those who would have to survive even in the Sims)

Edited October 5, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Survival in a game where there is no punishment for death, but there is a reward? Survival in a game where you don't get the penalty of hunger and thirst? Survival in a game where a pipe bomb, which is made for the cost of 1 hit of a pickaxe, is able to stop any enemy? Survival in a game where you are given 600 bullets a day from day one? What are you talking about?

 

Sorry, but even Muck is a more survival game, while 7 days to die tries to please everyone and the result is a mess from which you can only make content by resorting to modding and manual file editing. If you think the vanilla version of the game is survival, then I have bad news for you. This game is great, but it's not about survival. And the developers are clearly moving in the wrong direction. They indulge everything except the survival aspect and everyone who comes into it for the sake of survival will be disappointed (except those who would have to survive even in the Sims)

 

For some self-invented definitions of "Survival" 7D2D is not survival. Very true.

 

I would say for most people there is survival in this game. There are players who even consider it too harsh (mostly beginners though, but vanilla IS first and foremost for beginners). And then there are those (often) experienced players who consider it survival light.

And then there is you. 😉

Edited October 5, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

9 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

For some self-invented definitions of "Survival" 7D2D is not survival. Very true.

 

I would say for most people there is survival in this game. There are players who even consider it too harsh (mostly beginners though, but vanilla IS first and foremost for beginners). And then there are those (often) experienced players who consider it survival light.

And then there is you. 😉

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

 

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

 

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

I must have missed where the game forces you to keep playing if you die.  7D2D does not force you to keep playing the same game if you die, that is the player's choice.

• Some people play like you do, if you die you start over - The game allows you to do exactly that
• Some people play where if you die, it resets everything - The game allows them to do exactly that
• Others like me make the decision based on how I died - glitch, keep playing; do something stupid, start all over - The game allows me to do exactly that

The game also allows you to modify the dying penalty if you want to be punished for dying, but keep playing.  I have seen a few mods that do that.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

 

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

 

Okay, that is a way to see it, I take back the sarcasm. Just to be sure, you know that dying removes XP, dying often would even prevent you from advancing in levels at all, right? It may be weak but the penalty is there.

 

Losing respect for the penalty depends on knowing and exploiting the internal mechanism of gamestage. It depends on the knowledge that gamestage does not increase over time if your level doesn't advance and that zombies don't get worse when your gamestage doesn't go higher. My opinion is that this should not be common knowledge, this is an internal balancing trick.

 

But there is another problem here, independant of this: Whatever you do with the survival part of the game there is no punishment that really changes anything until you have a goal you want to reach and dying moves you away from your goal. Why would someone care if he lost a level if reaching a certain level is not part of his goal?

 

The answer is two-fold:

1) Once bandits are in, there will be a bona-fide goal to reach: Kill the leader of one or both factions and possibly take their place. And I assume that those leaders won't be gamestaged so far down that you can take them on with a lvl 1 toon. And then even the weak death penalty we have now IS a punishment.

 

2) In the mean-time this is also a sandbox game and absent of a set goal you are supposed to choose your own goal.

 

* When asked to implement a "dead is dead" mode in 7D2D the developers (as far as I remember) said to just delete the game when you die. So one possible choice for goal you can make would be to stay alive until you reach a certain level and play "dead is dead". Someone doesn't have enough self-control for that? Sorry, that is his own fault, grow up,

 

* Other players simply set their goal at mastering an ability or make a well-proteced base that can survive demolishers or play until there is a feeling to have reached anything reachable in the game (i.e. quality 6 items, map explored...). Once you have such a goal, dying is a punishment and dying often can lead to you never reaching the goal.

 

* For other players dying for gain is simply not an option and every death is simply a failure, just not a complete failure. At the end of the game having died only once is a much bigger success than having died 5 times. This can be a goal as well.

 

So my answer to you is that the survival part in 7D2D is not completed, but true to it being a sandbox game too it already is a surivival game if you accept your responsibility to set yourself a goal, one possibility actually being "not to die"

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Roland]

This game has survival elements just as it has elements from several other genres. The problem is not the game but the expectations that a hardcore survival fan has when playing this game thinking that this game is going to be a dedicated survival sim. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore RPG fan who comes and wonders why anyone would call this game an RPG. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore farming sim fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call the farming in this game legitimate farming. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore classic zombie fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call this game a zombie game when to them there are no actual zombies portrayed.

 

As Meganoth stated, this game is very much a survival challenge for many players despite it being a hybrid game and not a true dedicated survival sim. There are also settings you can choose to make the death penalty more biting as well as electing to start over once you die.

 

When I don't play voluntary dead is dead, I play with the option delete all on death and find that a pretty harrowing penalty. It is almost like starting over when you lose all your favorite items.  I often ask people who complain about weak death penalties if they ever have that enabled and very very few ever do...lol. Do you, @bachgaman?

 

I would like an additional toggle for persistent status effects upon respawn. I absolutely detest that death heals all debuffs. I find that unforgivable in a game that even dabbles with survival as one of its proclaimed genres thrown in the mix. If I had that option I would probably never just start a new game but keep playing to see if I can overcome or if I sink into a vortex of an inescapable death loop. But I know that wouldn't be good for everyone which is why I would love it as just an option.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

13 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Survival in a game where there is no punishment for death, but there is a reward? Survival in a game where you don't get the penalty of hunger and thirst? Survival in a game where a pipe bomb, which is made for the cost of 1 hit of a pickaxe, is able to stop any enemy? Survival in a game where you are given 600 bullets a day from day one? What are you talking about?

 

Sorry, but even Muck is a more survival game, while 7 days to die tries to please everyone and the result is a mess from which you can only make content by resorting to modding and manual file editing. If you think the vanilla version of the game is survival, then I have bad news for you. This game is great, but it's not about survival. And the developers are clearly moving in the wrong direction. They indulge everything except the survival aspect and everyone who comes into it for the sake of survival will be disappointed (except those who would have to survive even in the Sims)

Reward can be anything- in vanaheim you can die because lack of food. But you need food to have hp- or enemy will kill you easy. So in theory you can't starve to death but food is necessary in this game.  

Well  some things were putted in wrong direction - that's true- but everyone will complain always. I want to bring back corpse decay system but i undestand people was thinking it was not fun.  In some alpha you could have meat from diffrent animals and it was pain in ass- you have 4 meat not 5? sorry you have to starve. so they make this simpler to be more "fair".  

I think this game never was supposed to be typical survival like green hell but  something bettwen minecraft and the forest - you can die easly on the beggining because lack of food but after some time a diffrent thing are are your target - story, better weapons etc

6 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Survival without punishment for death and even without the possibility of turning it on is like Pac-man, in which you do not lose points and levels after losing all lives. Do you think Pac-Man would have been so popular in its day if its difficulty lay on the player's conscience? Well, it seems, he died 3 times, go to the main menu, start over. Or not. You can die as many times as you want and play endlessly. Very interesting.

 

Survival is when your main goal is not to die, not when you die to replenish food and water supplies, or to avoid looking for antibiotics. Survival is a struggle for life, not an exploitation of endless free resurrection. L4D2 is more survival than 7D2D because you can die and lose. And you have to complete level from start again. 7D2D is not survival because you only gain by dying, not lose. If you have a definition of survival that contradicts what I wrote above, then I will be glad to see it.

And in l4d2 someone can "resurrect you". L4D2 is like "superhot" you can die fast but bettwen safehouse you will spend maybe 10-15 minutes. in 7dtd you will spend a lon long time on this same map so- if you lose 10 minutes no problem but if you lose 40 hours it will sucks.

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

Okay, that is a way to see it, I take back the sarcasm. Just to be sure, you know that dying removes XP, dying often would even prevent you from advancing in levels at all, right? It may be weak but the penalty is there.

 

Losing respect for the penalty depends on knowing and exploiting the internal mechanism of gamestage. It depends on the knowledge that gamestage does not increase over time if your level doesn't advance and that zombies don't get worse when your gamestage doesn't go higher. My opinion is that this should not be common knowledge, this is an internal balancing trick.

 

But there is another problem here, independant of this: Whatever you do with the survival part of the game there is no punishment that really changes anything until you have a goal you want to reach and dying moves you away from your goal. Why would someone care if he lost a level if reaching a certain level is not part of his goal?

 

The answer is two-fold:

1) Once bandits are in, there will be a bona-fide goal to reach: Kill the leader of one or both factions and possibly take their place. And I assume that those leaders won't be gamestaged so far down that you can take them on with a lvl 1 toon. And then even the weak death penalty we have now IS a punishment.

 

2) In the mean-time this is also a sandbox game and absent of a set goal you are supposed to choose your own goal.

 

* When asked to implement a "dead is dead" mode in 7D2D the developers (as far as I remember) said to just delete the game when you die. So one possible choice for goal you can make would be to stay alive until you reach a certain level and play "dead is dead". Someone doesn't have enough self-control for that? Sorry, that is his own fault, grow up,

 

* Other players simply set their goal at mastering an ability or make a well-proteced base that can survive demolishers or play until there is a feeling to have reached anything reachable in the game (i.e. quality 6 items, map explored...). Once you have such a goal, dying is a punishment and dying often can lead to you never reaching the goal.

 

* For other players dying for gain is simply not an option and every death is simply a failure, just not a complete failure. At the end of the game having died only once is a much bigger success than having died 5 times. This can be a goal as well.

 

So my answer to you is that the survival part in 7D2D is not completed, but true to it being a sandbox game too it already is a surivival game if you accept your responsibility to set yourself a goal, one possibility actually being "not to die"

 

Well survival part is complet honestly- point of survial is survive how long as you can. or until you get bored.

In my opinion survival will be early stage- get food guns base etc. 

And when you boxes  will be full of ammo food, walls stong and sentries at door you are going to kick bandits asses as "late game"

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

This game has survival elements just as it has elements from several other genres. The problem is not the game but the expectations that a hardcore survival fan has when playing this game thinking that this game is going to be a dedicated survival sim. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore RPG fan who comes and wonders why anyone would call this game an RPG. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore farming sim fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call the farming in this game legitimate farming. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore classic zombie fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call this game a zombie game when to them there are no actual zombies portrayed.

 

As Meganoth stated, this game is very much a survival challenge for many players despite it being a hybrid game and not a true dedicated survival sim. There are also settings you can choose to make the death penalty more biting as well as electing to start over once you die.

 

When I don't play voluntary dead is dead, I play with the option delete all on death and find that a pretty harrowing penalty. It is almost like starting over when you lose all your favorite items.  I often ask people who complain about weak death penalties if they ever have that enabled and very very few ever do...lol. Do you, @bachgaman?

 

I would like an additional toggle for persistent status effects upon respawn. I absolutely detest that death heals all debuffs. I find that unforgivable in a game that even dabbles with survival as one of its proclaimed genres thrown in the mix. If I had that option I would probably never just start a new game but keep playing to see if I can overcome or if I sink into a vortex of an inescapable death loop.

I think some people when they were kids they asked parents if they can get spank on bare skin because with it will no hurt enough XD.

But seriously : i game can be realistic and can he hardcore.

Realistic - proper uniforms of soldier, correct magasines numbers, good graphic , realistic gore system.

Hardcore - everything is hard as posibble.

And i'm furiouse when people  use realistic as diffrent name of hardcore XD

[Roland]

29 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

And i'm furiouse when people  use realistic as diffrent name of hardcore XD

 

Well I'm furious about your hardcore expectations of newstands on city streets. 

[Matt115]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Well I'm furious about your hardcore expectations of newstands on city streets. 

I KNOW I WILL TALK WITH @madmole .... VERY PERSONALY IF THEM WILL BE NOT PERFECT ! < EVIL CARTOON VILLAIN LAUGHT!>

Btw i don't mean you think realistic=hardcore. 

I think @bachgaman thinks this way

[Morloc]

On 9/27/2021 at 11:42 PM, Roland said:

lol...my brother mods the game so that the trader is open 24/7. He loves all night shopping...

 

What ~would~ be pretty cool would be a 24 hr trader who's prices were quite stiff at night.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

[Roland]

31 minutes ago, Morloc said:

 

What ~would~ be pretty cool would be a 24 hr trader who's prices were quite stiff at night.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc

 

That would work better than a teleporting forcefield for me. Knowing that the prices would be cheaper in daylight would keep my cheapskate butt out of there until the sale started.

[Kyonshi]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

That would work better than a teleporting forcefield for me. Knowing that the prices would be cheaper in daylight would keep my cheapskate butt out of there until the sale started.

Traders would raise prices at night since they would be @%$#ed off having their sleep disturbed by your presence. 😆

 

And Rekt would just simply @%$#ing shoot at you from his bedroom window.

Edited October 5, 2021 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

6 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I must have missed where the game forces you to keep playing if you die.  7D2D does not force you to keep playing the same game if you die, that is the player's choice.

• Some people play like you do, if you die you start over - The game allows you to do exactly that
• Some people play where if you die, it resets everything - The game allows them to do exactly that
• Others like me make the decision based on how I died - glitch, keep playing; do something stupid, start all over - The game allows me to do exactly that

The game also allows you to modify the dying penalty if you want to be punished for dying, but keep playing.  I have seen a few mods that do that.

Expected response. Live your imagination, apply mods, apply manual editing of xml files, blah blah blah. I have already answered similar above. What if in Pac-Man the game didn't end after 3 lives, but continued for as long as you like? And to someone asking "Why can't you lose in this game? Why does it exist?" people like you answer "Well, you can decide for yourself when you lost. For example, after 3 deaths. Or after 1. Or after 10,000. Or as soon as you started this game." This is hypocrisy. I can just as well say that this game does not need a flying AI robot because you can imagine that you have one. Just imagine that it is. Why do you really need it? Imagine, imagine the new HD textures and twitch integration as if it exists. It's as easy as coming up with a reason to create a new world after accidental death. How about playing in a group? Should I fantasize that I have resurrected an ally? Or maybe the game is not needed at all? After all, you can lie in bed and imagine how you play 7DTD

[Roland]

18 minutes ago, bachgaman said:

Expected response. Live your imagination, apply mods, apply manual editing of xml files, blah blah blah. I have already answered similar above. What if in Pac-Man the game didn't end after 3 lives, but continued for as long as you like? And to someone asking "Why can't you lose in this game? Why does it exist?" people like you answer "Well, you can decide for yourself when you lost. For example, after 3 deaths. Or after 1. Or after 10,000. Or as soon as you started this game." This is hypocrisy. I can just as well say that this game does not need a flying AI robot because you can imagine that you have one. Just imagine that it is. Why do you really need it? Imagine, imagine the new HD textures and twitch integration as if it exists. It's as easy as coming up with a reason to create a new world after accidental death. How about playing in a group? Should I fantasize that I have resurrected an ally? Or maybe the game is not needed at all? After all, you can lie in bed and imagine how you play 7DTD

 

I get that you can't do a perm death when playing with a group unless everyone agrees that if anyone dies then everyone restarts so you can all stay together. But what about delete all on death? Do you play with that setting?

Edited October 5, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

Okay, that is a way to see it, I take back the sarcasm. Just to be sure, you know that dying removes XP, dying often would even prevent you from advancing in levels at all, right? It may be weak but the penalty is there.

 

Losing respect for the penalty depends on knowing and exploiting the internal mechanism of gamestage. It depends on the knowledge that gamestage does not increase over time if your level doesn't advance and that zombies don't get worse when your gamestage doesn't go higher. My opinion is that this should not be common knowledge, this is an internal balancing trick.

The last time I played with my friends, they died 40+ times in 40 days. Not because they are mentally disabled, but because they know that they will get nothing for it. And because of this, they don't try to survive. So when we finally built the base and took the bloody horde head-on, they practically caught up with me in levels. Such a punishment. If you play solo, then perhaps this can be considered a punishment if you ignore one nuance that you indicated below. The more you die, the lower the game stage and the easier it is to play. Haha. The game rewards weak dying players by making it easier for them to play. It's just great. Yes, along with this they find the appropriate loot, but does anyone care about that. What loot will give you immortality? Especially if you don't care if you die or not.

5 hours ago, meganoth said:

But there is another problem here, independant of this: Whatever you do with the survival part of the game there is no punishment that really changes anything until you have a goal you want to reach and dying moves you away from your goal. Why would someone care if he lost a level if reaching a certain level is not part of his goal?

 

The answer is two-fold:

1) Once bandits are in, there will be a bona-fide goal to reach: Kill the leader of one or both factions and possibly take their place. And I assume that those leaders won't be gamestaged so far down that you can take them on with a lvl 1 toon. And then even the weak death penalty we have now IS a punishment.

 

2) In the mean-time this is also a sandbox game and absent of a set goal you are supposed to choose your own goal.

 

* When asked to implement a "dead is dead" mode in 7D2D the developers (as far as I remember) said to just delete the game when you die. So one possible choice for goal you can make would be to stay alive until you reach a certain level and play "dead is dead". Someone doesn't have enough self-control for that? Sorry, that is his own fault, grow up,

 

* Other players simply set their goal at mastering an ability or make a well-proteced base that can survive demolishers or play until there is a feeling to have reached anything reachable in the game (i.e. quality 6 items, map explored...). Once you have such a goal, dying is a punishment and dying often can lead to you never reaching the goal.

 

* For other players dying for gain is simply not an option and every death is simply a failure, just not a complete failure. At the end of the game having died only once is a much bigger success than having died 5 times. This can be a goal as well.

 

So my answer to you is that the survival part in 7D2D is not completed, but true to it being a sandbox game too it already is a surivival game if you accept your responsibility to set yourself a goal, one possibility actually being "not to die"

Do not deceive me or yourself by claiming that this game may have some goals other than survival. Yes, for the first time it's really fun to build traps, build a car, or build a gyrocopter. But this is done in the first 30 hours of gameplay, and this is if you play slowly without looking at videos and guides and if you studying everything yourself. Ultimately, all these are tools for survival and nothing more. The only sign of all these and the "achievements" listed by you is the usefulness in survival. There is little scope in this game for truly ambitious non-survival goals. For example, for several weeks I was building a fully automated plant for the extraction, sorting and processing of ores in minecraft with some complex industrial mods. I didn't care about survival and it was interesting. In this game, there are no such possibilities even close. All you can do is a maximum of 30 hours of gameplay. The rest of the time you will repeat the past.

 

And about the fact that I have to recreate the game after death, okay, but what about in the group? I do not play this game alone. And why do you put some people's goals above others? Why is there an opportunity for some, but not for others? After all, I'm not the only one who would like to see the "1 life" mode at least in some form, there are a lot of people like me.

49 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I get that you can't do a perm death when playing with a group unless everyone agrees that if anyone dies then everyone restarts so you can all stay together. But what about delete all on death? Do you play with that setting?

I have suggested ways to solve this problem. Removing things on death will bring a lot of negativity to the game, because items are usually shared. I think this will lead to the fact that some members of the group will stop taking good items and become just useless and will not enjoy it. I don’t play with it, although I thought to try it many times. In general, it was not about the fact that I suffer from a lack of hardcore mode, but about the fact that someone claimed that this is a game about survival😂

Edited October 5, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

This game has survival elements just as it has elements from several other genres. The problem is not the game but the expectations that a hardcore survival fan has when playing this game thinking that this game is going to be a dedicated survival sim. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore RPG fan who comes and wonders why anyone would call this game an RPG. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore farming sim fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call the farming in this game legitimate farming. It is the same problem that comes from the expectations of a hardcore classic zombie fan who comes and wonders how anyone could call this game a zombie game when to them there are no actual zombies portrayed.

 

As Meganoth stated, this game is very much a survival challenge for many players despite it being a hybrid game and not a true dedicated survival sim. There are also settings you can choose to make the death penalty more biting as well as electing to start over once you die.

 

When I don't play voluntary dead is dead, I play with the option delete all on death and find that a pretty harrowing penalty. It is almost like starting over when you lose all your favorite items.  I often ask people who complain about weak death penalties if they ever have that enabled and very very few ever do...lol. Do you, @bachgaman?

 

I would like an additional toggle for persistent status effects upon respawn. I absolutely detest that death heals all debuffs. I find that unforgivable in a game that even dabbles with survival as one of its proclaimed genres thrown in the mix. If I had that option I would probably never just start a new game but keep playing to see if I can overcome or if I sink into a vortex of an inescapable death loop. But I know that wouldn't be good for everyone which is why I would love it as just an option.

I already answered above about "delete everything", but I think that this is still a bad punishment, because the game floods the player with loot, and the level is not lost. As a result, the more diligent players will be annoyed by the non-diligent ones and nothing will change.

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

And in l4d2 someone can "resurrect you". L4D2 is like "superhot" you can die fast but bettwen safehouse you will spend maybe 10-15 minutes. in 7dtd you will spend a lon long time on this same map so- if you lose 10 minutes no problem but if you lose 40 hours it will sucks.

It is true that similar mechanics could exist in this game in the form of daily backups or "resurrecting" by allies. This way, survival will remain the # 1 challenge, but you won't lose full progress. You will have a chance to deal with it. Unfortunately nobody needs it. You have to invent conditions for yourself as if you are playing tin soldiers, not a computer game 

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Well survival part is complet honestly- point of survial is survive how long as you can. or until you get bored.

In my opinion survival will be early stage- get food guns base etc. 

And when you boxes  will be full of ammo food, walls stong and sentries at door you are going to kick bandits asses as "late game"

 

Why are you all writing about some bandits? Wake up, the A20 has been in development for almost a year and a half and there will be no bandits in it. We are talking about today, not about what will happen in 5-10 years.

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

I think some people when they were kids they asked parents if they can get spank on bare skin because with it will no hurt enough XD.

But seriously : i game can be realistic and can he hardcore.

Realistic - proper uniforms of soldier, correct magasines numbers, good graphic , realistic gore system.

Hardcore - everything is hard as posibble.

And i'm furiouse when people  use realistic as diffrent name of hardcore XD

Unfortunately, the game is now neither realism nor hardcore. And all this many settings can not help in any way

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

I think @bachgaman thinks this way

Comeon dude have you seen the graphics in this game? Have you seen how the transport is moving here? Have you seen how the plants grow? And what about workbenches that automatically create bullets? Do you still think I need realism? I need a challenge. At the moment I see that all aspects of the game are focused on survival, but there is no survival itself. Thus, everything in the game is devalued.

[Roland]

@bachgaman You’re that .02% elite gamer that the devs are not going to develop for. The level of challenge you say you want, 99.98% of the population will never play even if it was in the default version so the devs won’t spend any time on it. 
 

I’m not saying modding is the answer to everything but it most definitely is the answer for what you want. As an example, they will most likely never add an option to remove traders. You’ll always have to mod them out if you want them gone. 
 

I asked Joel personally if they could add an option to remove the hud or at least make F7 work so that you could interact with things and he said that huddles play is an extreme hardcore way to play and should be left to mods.