I finally found a way to make the game interesting

[bachgaman]

33 minutes ago, Roland said:

@bachgaman You’re that .02% elite gamer that the devs are not going to develop for. The level of challenge you say you want, 99.98% of the population will never play even if it was in the default version so the devs won’t spend any time on it. 
 

I’m not saying modding is the answer to everything but it most definitely is the answer for what you want. As an example, they will most likely never add an option to remove traders. You’ll always have to mod them out if you want them gone. 
 

I asked Joel personally if they could add an option to remove the hud or at least make F7 work so that you could interact with things and he said that huddles play is an extreme hardcore way to play and should be left to mods. 

I would not like to delete traders. I wish they weren't OP. They spoil the game because they are extremely imbalanced. And you can't deny that 600 bullets on the first day is overkill. In a solo game.

 

Even minecraft has a 1 life mode and people play it. As well as in Path of Exile where people invest not only hundreds of hours, but hundreds of dollars in their characters and die from an accidental non-obvious blow like a hidden land mineand and other games. There is no need to exaggerate when speaking about 0.2%. You will not be able to refute the fact that in this game there is nothing but ways to survive that is not needed.

[Roland]

2 hours ago, bachgaman said:

I would not like to delete traders. I wish they weren't OP. They spoil the game because they are extremely imbalanced. And you can't deny that 600 bullets on the first day is overkill. In a solo game.

 

Even minecraft has a 1 life mode and people play it. As well as in Path of Exile where people invest not only hundreds of hours, but hundreds of dollars in their characters and die from an accidental non-obvious blow like a hidden land mineand and other games. There is no need to exaggerate when speaking about 0.2%. You will not be able to refute the fact that in this game there is nothing but ways to survive that is not needed.

 

I don't need to refute anything. The game is wildly popular the way that it is. It is one of the most popular and successful of all of the open world survival type games. So perhaps they aren't doing survival the way you would like it but they are doing it the way a whole lot of people are liking it. I very much enjoy the amount of survival the game gives. I can honestly say that I have never gotten 600 bullets on the first day so I don't even know what you are talking about but I suspect that it is because you are speed running quests on 120 minute days. You are spoiling your own game because you can't help but play it extreme min/max and I know you say that you must because of the level of difficulty you are playing demands it.

 

But here's a thought. If you played 60 minute days and visited the trader only once per day,  that might result in that greater challenge that you are desiring. I know you don't want to hear about self-limiting concepts but for Pete's sake, man, you are your own worst enemy. The solution is right in front of you and all you have to do is modify your own behavior but you won't on the principle that you shouldn't have to do so. That is ridiculous. Make rules for yourself that will lead you to enjoy the challenge and stick with them. The game is never going to be developed in a way that will force you to only visit the trader once a day or only be able to spend so much or only be able to take so many jobs. The reason is that TFP wants to allow people to choose how they want to play in a way that they enjoy. You are taking that freedom and choosing to play in a way that makes you not enjoy the game and openly admit that you aren't enjoying it and then berate and look down on anyone who has the temerity to suggest that you make choices to limit yourself.

 

SMH...I don't know why but I keep forgetting that you are a min/maxer whenever you return to complain and each time I am confused at first why you are having such issues and then each time it comes back to me that you are a min/maxer who loathes the game that results from min/maxing but can't bring himself to stop min/maxing stating that at the difficulty level he is playing he MUST min/max but then also complains that the game is still too easy and wants SOME way to make it more difficult but won't ever stop min/maxing.  Good luck, man. Be disgusted that self-limiting and mods are going to be your only solutions if you must but eventually you will have to see the truth that the game is not going to be made to the specifications you are desiring. They are too fringe.

[Laz Man]

OP I know you don't think what you proposed will ever make it into the vanilla game, but you just never know.

 

I don't think anyone ever expected RWG to reach the level of believability and immersion that is in A20 but here we are. 

 

On the flip side what you ask for may never happen but we might get damn close on some of them.  Tune into the dev stream next week as Robert will be revealing lots of details regarding RWG and the new way POIs are spawned in.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't need to refute anything. The game is wildly popular the way that it is. It is one of the most popular and successful of all of the open world survival type games. So perhaps they aren't doing survival the way you would like it but they are doing it the way a whole lot of people are liking it. I very much enjoy the amount of survival the game gives.

Popular is not equal to good. And not equal forever. And not equal to perfect.

7 hours ago, Roland said:

I can honestly say that I have never gotten 600 bullets on the first day so I don't even know what you are talking about but I suspect that it is because you are speed running quests on 120 minute days. You are spoiling your own game because you can't help but play it extreme min/max and I know you say that you must because of the level of difficulty you are playing demands it.

 

Suspect as much as you like, it is very easy to complete 4 tier1 quests on the first day, so it is quite possible to have even 800 rounds if 9mm drops out 4 times.

On default settings, without speedrun, in the typical RWG world. Some missions had to walk almost 1000 meters as i remember.

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

But here's a thought. If you played 60 minute days and visited the trader only once per day,  that might result in that greater challenge that you are desiring. I know you don't want to hear about self-limiting concepts but for Pete's sake, man, you are your own worst enemy. The solution is right in front of you and all you have to do is modify your own behavior but you won't on the principle that you shouldn't have to do so. That is ridiculous. Make rules for yourself that will lead you to enjoy the challenge and stick with them. The game is never going to be developed in a way that will force you to only visit the trader once a day or only be able to spend so much or only be able to take so many jobs. The reason is that TFP wants to allow people to choose how they want to play in a way that they enjoy. You are taking that freedom and choosing to play in a way that makes you not enjoy the game and openly admit that you aren't enjoying it and then berate and look down on anyone who has the temerity to suggest that you make choices to limit yourself.

Great, in one paragraph you mention that the game is positioned as something that allows people to choose how they want to play the way they like. And in it you write that the game will never have those opportunities that I would like to see in it, because it is created for the majority. Therefore, I have to put the spokes in the wheels myself. I have to deliberately play badly to make it interesting and challenging. This is a very strange position. And why then does the game have settings of 25% loot, 25% experience, nightmare insane? Does 99.98% play at these settings? If you are making the game 99.98%, then why can it remove all items after death?

7 hours ago, Roland said:

SMH...I don't know why but I keep forgetting that you are a min/maxer whenever you return to complain and each time I am confused at first why you are having such issues and then each time it comes back to me that you are a min/maxer who loathes the game that results from min/maxing but can't bring himself to stop min/maxing stating that at the difficulty level he is playing he MUST min/max but then also complains that the game is still too easy and wants SOME way to make it more difficult but won't ever stop min/maxing.  Good luck, man. Be disgusted that self-limiting and mods are going to be your only solutions if you must but eventually you will have to see the truth that the game is not going to be made to the specifications you are desiring. They are too fringe.

You contemptuously call me a min / maxer, although I just want the game to force me to make decisions that allow me to survive. You call it a survival game yourself. I don't see anything marginal in the mode with 1 life, in the mode with 1 life and daily backups, in the mode with 1 life and party resurrection, in the settings of the merchant that allow you to scale his rewards or limit the repetition of the same quests. It would be just as interesting to those 99.98% you are talking about. But I didn’t say that this should be rigidly fixed for everyone. If you like to grind the same quest, getting 200 ammo for two killed zombies and spent 10 minutes of real time, then then please, but I would like the game to push me to explore the world.

 

We are different and we want different things from the game. You say that the developers follow the path of development so that each player has his own pleasure, but at the same time you never accept what I write. You fundamentally disagree with anything, because you think that you are a representative of 99.98% and everything should be in accordance with your ideas. This is not true. If for you this is incredible difficulty that kills the interest in the game, then for me it is more interesting gameplay in the first place.

 

The same relaxed players you write about would be glad if the merchant sent them to the farthest parts of the navezgan, and not forced them to visit a house on a mountain or a hospital 50 times. If I really were a minmaxer, then I would be against this. And that is convenient. You build a base between the merchant and the house on the mountain and minmax by completing this house 6 times per game day. I think it would be more profitable than trudging to the farthest corner of the map, because only there were unfulfilled quests.

[Matt115]

13 hours ago, bachgaman said:

I already answered above about "delete everything", but I think that this is still a bad punishment, because the game floods the player with loot, and the level is not lost. As a result, the more diligent players will be annoyed by the non-diligent ones and nothing will change.

It is true that similar mechanics could exist in this game in the form of daily backups or "resurrecting" by allies. This way, survival will remain the # 1 challenge, but you won't lose full progress. You will have a chance to deal with it. Unfortunately nobody needs it. You have to invent conditions for yourself as if you are playing tin soldiers, not a computer game 

 

Why are you all writing about some bandits? Wake up, the A20 has been in development for almost a year and a half and there will be no bandits in it. We are talking about today, not about what will happen in 5-10 years.

Unfortunately, the game is now neither realism nor hardcore. And all this many settings can not help in any way

Comeon dude have you seen the graphics in this game? Have you seen how the transport is moving here? Have you seen how the plants grow? And what about workbenches that automatically create bullets? Do you still think I need realism? I need a challenge. At the moment I see that all aspects of the game are focused on survival, but there is no survival itself. Thus, everything in the game is devalued.

1. Yep level is not lost and that's good if you want to lose everything you can just delet save. Lose level is so hard to implemeted so nobody do this - if i good remember one guy working on titan quest talk about this in interview.

2. And there came few problems.  Create item to self revive like cod warzone or not. Add revive item or not. what if someplay in single player etc. In cod if you fall in single player on zombie you could revieve you self if you have quick revive of first aid in cod cw. But here it will be too much complicated.

3. Well maybe you should wake up? they planned this from long time and this game is in early access so - this game is not ended yet but still it is neccesary what will be in final version.

4. Is not realism but realistic - i will give  cod as example - realism modes on multi- no hud short time to kill no minimap etc. realistic- proper uniforms and  realistic looking guns  etc.

5. bla bla bla challenge- this graphics is realistic in this same way as plague tale , old cod waw or l4d2-  this is style not quality- bordelands have a good graphic but it's looks in comic style.  Realistic mean  style not a game system -  plague tale and dragon age are fantasy game- but plague tale is trying to keep realistic style- dirty bare feet, rotting corpses , decaying food etc and dragon age keep mix of high and brutal fantasy style.  Rest of thing  you wrote is mechanic not style. And some thing are made simpler to keep balance or just to be working

11 hours ago, Roland said:

@bachgaman You’re that .02% elite gamer that the devs are not going to develop for. The level of challenge you say you want, 99.98% of the population will never play even if it was in the default version so the devs won’t spend any time on it. 
 

I’m not saying modding is the answer to everything but it most definitely is the answer for what you want. As an example, they will most likely never add an option to remove traders. You’ll always have to mod them out if you want them gone. 
 

I asked Joel personally if they could add an option to remove the hud or at least make F7 work so that you could interact with things and he said that huddles play is an extreme hardcore way to play and should be left to mods. 

Yep i agree with you. Anyone from 7dtd say they want to create hardcore game.  Well small joke here - if they wanted to create ultrahardcore zombie game zombie teens woudn't be problem because maybe only 0,00001% people on steam would buy this game anyway

[bachgaman]

20 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

1. Yep level is not lost and that's good if you want to lose everything you can just delet save. Lose level is so hard to implemeted so nobody do this - if i good remember one guy working on titan quest talk about this in interview.

2. And there came few problems.  Create item to self revive like cod warzone or not. Add revive item or not. what if someplay in single player etc. In cod if you fall in single player on zombie you could revieve you self if you have quick revive of first aid in cod cw. But here it will be too much complicated.

3. Well maybe you should wake up? they planned this from long time and this game is in early access so - this game is not ended yet but still it is neccesary what will be in final version.

4. Is not realism but realistic - i will give  cod as example - realism modes on multi- no hud short time to kill no minimap etc. realistic- proper uniforms and  realistic looking guns  etc.

5. bla bla bla challenge- this graphics is realistic in this same way as plague tale , old cod waw or l4d2-  this is style not quality- bordelands have a good graphic but it's looks in comic style.  Realistic mean  style not a game system -  plague tale and dragon age are fantasy game- but plague tale is trying to keep realistic style- dirty bare feet, rotting corpses , decaying food etc and dragon age keep mix of high and brutal fantasy style.  Rest of thing  you wrote is mechanic not style. And some thing are made simpler to keep balance or just to be working

1. Perhaps you are right and this is incredibly difficult to implement (which I doubt)

2. I agree, reviving is a complex mechanic and they need to think it over. So what? TFPs can't think through? Backups are much more straightforward mechanic.

3. If you are offended by the word "wake up", then I'm sorry. But in this context, it is absurd to argue for what will be created many years later. There is no need to indulge in the illusion that we will receive the A21 in January, and the gold version in February. Judging by the speed of updating the game, the bandits will appear not earlier than in a couple of years.

4/5. Let's just say I'm fine with the ugly graphics of 7 Days to Die, but I wouldn't want to see laser miniguns in it, made of 1 stone and 1 stick.

20 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yep i agree with you. Anyone from 7dtd say they want to create hardcore game.  Well small joke here - if they wanted to create ultrahardcore zombie game zombie teens woudn't be problem because maybe only 0,00001% people on steam would buy this game anyway

It seems you have labeled me as someone who only wants difficulties, but I would like to have the same variety of gameplay (offers about a merchant) and not as much difficulty as the emergence of new meaningful goals (for example survive in a survival game)

Edited October 6, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Popular is not equal to good. And not equal forever. And not equal to perfect.

 

Of course it isn't. But popular is a good barometer for determining whether people are having fun with the game. "Good" is subjective. What you think is good or bad I may feel otherwise. Devs are doing what they believe to be good and while you disagree that it is, many many people are having fun and playing and purchasing what TFP has determined to be good so that motivates them to continue in the path that they are on.

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Suspect as much as you like, it is very easy to complete 4 tier1 quests on the first day, so it is quite possible to have even 800 rounds if 9mm drops out 4 times.

 

lol...I don't DOUBT you. I just limit myself from playing in that manner. I wasn't calling on you to stop making false claims. I was suggesting that you stop the behavior that nets you 400 ammo on Day one since you know that it kills the game. You have done so by modding out the traders which I applaud. What I take issue with is you complaining that you must mod them out to get that result. When I said I have never gotten that many rounds on Day one I wasn't saying it is impossible to do so. I was saying that it isn't impossible to avoid doing so even if you don't remove the traders. It's easy...you just do one quest a day on purpose.

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

Great, in one paragraph you mention that the game is positioned as something that allows people to choose how they want to play the way they like. And in it you write that the game will never have those opportunities that I would like to see in it, because it is created for the majority. Therefore, I have to put the spokes in the wheels myself.

 

I guess that you misunderstood my point that when I said the game is positioned as something that allows people to choose how they want to play the way they like I meant that they have those choices by being willing to put the spokes in the wheels themselves. You will never have those opportunities to get what you want out of the game only if you refuse to put the spokes in the wheel yourself. It's not just you that has to "fix" the game. Anyone and everyone who wants a slightly to largely different experience than what is offered by the current default and the current options must choose to make those adjustments themselves either by self-limiting or by modding. The difference is that most of us are happy and grateful for the ability to do so whereas you are sour and angry about the ability to do so. It could be that some of what you want may eventually become part of the official options menu page. I just doubt that they will create an option to remove traders or limit quests to once a day. But maybe that could happen. If it does then congrats. If they ever give us an option for invisible HUD then congrats to me. If they ever give us an option to make status debuffs persistent through death and respawn congrats to us both. But they may never do those things and then, yes, we will have to put the spokes in our own wheels ourselves if we want those things-- and that is a powerful and positive thing. It is not a sign of bad developers or bad design that the game can be so easily and completely modified to individual tastes.

 

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

You contemptuously call me a min / maxer, although I just want the game to force me to make decisions that allow me to survive.

 

I call you a min/maxer because you admit that you cannot resist spamming 4-5 quests a day and playing the game in a manner that optimizes efficiency despite knowing that it is going to kill your fun. I call you a min/maxer because where non min/maxers look at self limitation as a legitimate way of introducing challenge into the game you look at it solely as choosing to play poorly and stupidly.  I understand wanting the game to force decisions. A permadeath option that deletes your game automatically is much more powerful and definitely changes the feel over electively deleting your own game. I get that. But just wanting options that will force the limitations that will increase the survival aspect of the game is not what makes someone a min/maxer. I would welcome more options that add limitations much like we already have like 25% loot as you pointed out. I'm not against such things. The difference is that I recognize that we will never have enough official options to satisfy everyone-- even some of the options I would like may never appear and because I am willing to mod or self limit I get the game that I want and am pleased with it. You could have the same thing if you could accept self limitation and modding as legitimate solutions without feeling wronged by the developers that they didn't make the game the way they should have.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, bachgaman said:

We are different and we want different things from the game. You say that the developers follow the path of development so that each player has his own pleasure, but at the same time you never accept what I write. You fundamentally disagree with anything, because you think that you are a representative of 99.98% and everything should be in accordance with your ideas. This is not true. If for you this is incredible difficulty that kills the interest in the game, then for me it is more interesting gameplay in the first place.

 

We are different but I don't disagree with everything you write and I'm sorry I give that impression. I tend to just focus on what I do disagree with and leave the things I do agree with alone. I agree that more questable locations would be a good thing so you are not being sent to the same house so often. I agree that getting to a point where pretty much every POI is on the map somewhere but just once without repitition would be great and if they continue on in pumping out POIs that might be a reality someday. As I stated, I am not against the options you want. I don't think the devs will spend time on some of them but I could be wrong and I certainly wouldn't try to talk them out of adding them. 

 

I also don't think I represent the 99.98%. I just observe and believe I can see what the 99.98% do like and what they do respond to and what they believe to be good. More importantly, I know what the developers believe the 99.98% want and like and wrong or right that is what is going to determine the path at the end of the day. You have the right to speak against that for sure. I don't want you to stop voicing what you want. But neither am I going to stop correcting what I believe to be misconceptions and misunderstandings-- the biggest being (between us) that the need to mod or self limit equals a weakness in the design of the game. You may not be convinced but readers can listen to both our perspectives and decide where they stand.

[Matt115]

3 hours ago, bachgaman said:

1. Perhaps you are right and this is incredibly difficult to implement (which I doubt)

2. I agree, reviving is a complex mechanic and they need to think it over. So what? TFPs can't think through? Backups are much more straightforward mechanic.

3. If you are offended by the word "wake up", then I'm sorry. But in this context, it is absurd to argue for what will be created many years later. There is no need to indulge in the illusion that we will receive the A21 in January, and the gold version in February. Judging by the speed of updating the game, the bandits will appear not earlier than in a couple of years.

4/5. Let's just say I'm fine with the ugly graphics of 7 Days to Die, but I wouldn't want to see laser miniguns in it, made of 1 stone and 1 stick.

It seems you have labeled me as someone who only wants difficulties, but I would like to have the same variety of gameplay (offers about a merchant) and not as much difficulty as the emergence of new meaningful goals (for example survive in a survival game)

1.Well unfortunatly i'm right - because now game keep your 1 profile, but with lvl 20 you would need 20 profiles. Because you can put  points in diffrent way. and will need "space" so this is problem and level is connected with gamestage.

2. They can but it is too late. If wrote this in 2013/2014 they maybe would add this. But after 7-8 years it is just too late.

3 Okay   We don't get gold soon but this not a point - i will give you example -  few years ago governament in my city made a road to nowhere, It was looking stupid but after 5-8 years they build shop center on this empty field.  

So 7dtd have now "  early stage" improvment and maybe after 2-3 years we will get  " late stage"

4. Nothing to worry about - ofc balancing is neccesary still but they works on turret for  example or junk guns.

Honestly - 7dtd is like call of duty zombies. 

In nach der toten , verruck shi no numa , Five, kino der toten you have only to survive as long as possible. But in Der Riese, shangra-la moon you can play just to survive as long as you can or do easter egg quest (story in cod is easter egg - it sound stupid but tradition) . 7dtd in now on shi no numa level but someday 7dtd will change into origins. 

Btw- difficulty can be connected with mechanic like advanced reloading of guns etc. 

Some mechanics can be just be for fun- fishing in cod outbreake, some of them to be difficult - melee system in nioh 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

We are different but I don't disagree with everything you write and I'm sorry I give that impression. I tend to just focus on what I do disagree with and leave the things I do agree with alone. I agree that more questable locations would be a good thing so you are not being sent to the same house so often. I agree that getting to a point where pretty much every POI is on the map somewhere but just once without repitition would be great and if they continue on in pumping out POIs that might be a reality someday. As I stated, I am not against the options you want. I don't think the devs will spend time on some of them but I could be wrong and I certainly wouldn't try to talk them out of adding them. 

 

I also don't think I represent the 99.98%. I just observe and believe I can see what the 99.98% do like and what they do respond to and what they believe to be good. More importantly, I know what the developers believe the 99.98% want and like and wrong or right that is what is going to determine the path at the end of the day. You have the right to speak against that for sure. I don't want you to stop voicing what you want. But neither am I going to stop correcting what I believe to be misconceptions and misunderstandings-- the biggest being (between us) that the need to mod or self limit equals a weakness in the design of the game. You may not be convinced but readers can listen to both our perspectives and decide where they stand.

Honestly i agree with you except of POI - well ofc  if every POI on map were unique it would be cool but.. small number of zombie variant create clone wars syndrome - so add more variants of zombie in my opinion is one of the most important things

[Roland]

16 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

1.Well unfortunatly i'm right - because now game keep your 1 profile, but with lvl 20 you would need 20 profiles. Because you can put  points in diffrent way. and will need "space" so this is problem and level is connected with gamestage.

 

I don't think you are. They already implemented virtually the same thing as level loss for death except it was temporary so people (min/maxer oriented people again) sat around waiting for the curse to end because they couldn't stomach the thought of harvesting or taking any action at less than optimal efficiency for their character. It was a 60 minute death curse that got reduced to 30 minutes and then finally removed.  But they could easily implement a permanent level loss for dying. It's already all there if they want it and they would just make it permanent rather than on a timer. I'm not sure why you think this would result in 20 different profiles You would simply lose the level and any skills that no longer could function would become red until your level was recovered.

 

I don't think they will return to this though-- not because of technical limitations but because of memory of the backlash the last time they went down this road.

[Matt115]

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I don't think you are. They already implemented virtually the same thing as level loss for death except it was temporary so people (min/maxer oriented people again) sat around waiting for the curse to end because they couldn't stomach the thought of harvesting or taking any action at less than optimal efficiency for their character. It was a 60 minute death curse that got reduced to 30 minutes and then finally removed.  But they could easily implement a permanent level loss for dying. It's already all there if they want it and they would just make it permanent rather than on a timer. I'm not sure why you think this would result in 20 different profiles You would simply lose the level and any skills that no longer could function would become red until your level was recovered.

 

I don't think they will return to this though-- not because of technical limitations but because of memory of the backlash the last time they went down this road.

Well but it could lock some schematics right? so now in theory- what if you get schematics from skill and you doing it in workbench but you die bettwen this. So it could create bug becaue now you can't do this thing. 

Well i forget it can be create in this way.  I was thing in grandpa's elixir but 1 lvl only.  So do this in this way could be very hard to implement

[JCrook1028]

4 hours ago, bachgaman said:

You call it a survival game yourself.

That right there is your problem. It is not a "survival" game. It is a game with elements from many genre's of which survival is one. get that fact thru your head.

[Roland]

50 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well but it could lock some schematics right? so now in theory- what if you get schematics from skill and you doing it in workbench but you die bettwen this. So it could create bug becaue now you can't do this thing. 

Well i forget it can be create in this way.  I was thing in grandpa's elixir but 1 lvl only.  So do this in this way could be very hard to implement

Can't that scenario happen now if you are wearing glasses to give yourself a level to be able to craft something but then remove the glasses? What bug happens?

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Can't that scenario happen now if you are wearing glasses to give yourself a level to be able to craft something but then remove the glasses? What bug happens?

I forget about this XD 

[meganoth]

20 hours ago, bachgaman said:

The last time I played with my friends, they died 40+ times in 40 days. Not because they are mentally disabled, but because they know that they will get nothing for it. And because of this, they don't try to survive. So when we finally built the base and took the bloody horde head-on, they practically caught up with me in levels. Such a punishment. If you play solo, then perhaps this can be considered a punishment if you ignore one nuance that you indicated below. The more you die, the lower the game stage and the easier it is to play. Haha. The game rewards weak dying players by making it easier for them to play. It's just great. Yes, along with this they find the appropriate loot, but does anyone care about that. What loot will give you immortality? Especially if you don't care if you die or not.

 

As I said, knowing this is not good for the game, but the knowledge is out of the bottle. As Roland said the developers don't want to incur a really stiff death penalty because of all the players complaining about it and so there is the situation that either people value their in-game lifes and have fun, or they don't and then they sometimes don't have fun.

 

My group of friends has no problem putting a high price on our lifes and the last time one of us died he really got into a bad mood because of his death. I would call that the right mind set.

 

You have a group of friends who are really not compatible with the way you want to play the game, it seems. If the game had a "dead is dead" aka "permanent death mode", would your friends even accept to play with this switch turned on? To me that seems doubtful. 

 

20 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Do not deceive me or yourself by claiming that this game may have some goals other than survival. Yes, for the first time it's really fun to build traps, build a car, or build a gyrocopter. But this is done in the first 30 hours of gameplay, and this is if you play slowly without looking at videos and guides and if you studying everything yourself. Ultimately, all these are tools for survival and nothing more. The only sign of all these and the "achievements" listed by you is the usefulness in survival. There is little scope in this game for truly ambitious non-survival goals. For example, for several weeks I was building a fully automated plant for the extraction, sorting and processing of ores in minecraft with some complex industrial mods. I didn't care about survival and it was interesting. In this game, there are no such possibilities even close. All you can do is a maximum of 30 hours of gameplay. The rest of the time you will repeat the past.

 

30 hours? Ok, in SP I usually have fun for maybe 50 hours until I drop out. But I take my time, especially playing AGILITY one doesn't level that fast. So? Can you show me some pamphlet that says 7D2D has some specific minimum hours it should run? 

 

But I know of players playing a world for hundreds of hours. I have heard they often build seriously big buildings or even cities, just like in minecraft. Just that minecraft has a lot more automation, not sure if already in vanilla or through mods. If I want automation I usually play Factorio, but thats beside the point.

 

I don't see why building a horde base from idea to finish (which is usually what drives me in this game) would not suffice as a goal. Or just surving (which actually points to this game being a survival game if you let it). But I distinctly said that those goals are only there if you choose to go for them, like in a sandbox game. Because this is a sandbox game as well. I already said that but it seems you missed that somehow

 

I also spoke about a real in-game goal that will be added to the game with bandits. You complain somewhere else that it isn't in A19, not even in A20. Yes. TFP take their time. They were never faster. I expect bandits in A21 and I expect A21 in a year. If it takes even longer, so be it. This is a game in development and you can always choose to play this game only after release if incomplete features that take ages don't suit you. I have no doubts that as long as TFP still exists in the next years there will be bandits in the game and they will provide one actual in-game goal.

 

By the way, the 800 bullets on day 1 you mentioned: This is another unfinished work, trader loot and rewards should have been rebalanced in A20, but this was postponed to A21, I assume because they fundamentaly changed the looting code because of the RWG changes and so had no time for that. Yes, TFP is slow for anyone looking from outside, don't expect this to change.

 

20 hours ago, bachgaman said:

 

And about the fact that I have to recreate the game after death, okay, but what about in the group? I do not play this game alone. And why do you put some people's goals above others? Why is there an opportunity for some, but not for others? After all, I'm not the only one who would like to see the "1 life" mode at least in some form, there are a lot of people like me.

 

Not my choice to add such a feature, but If I want to play dead is dead I will. I know lots of people here who at least say they play dead is dead.

My advice: If you are playing on some external server and want to start over again once you die then contact the server owner so he deletes your character for you. And ignore what your friends do.

 

 

Edited October 6, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

7 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

 

 

But I know of players playing a world for hundreds of hours. I have heard they often build seriously big buildings or even cities, just like in minecraft. Only minecraft has a lot more automation, not sure if already in vanilla or through mods.

 

 

 

 

This is vanilla ; redstone can do a lot but only works good on java version. On windows version it sometimes create stange bugs

[Roland]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

By the way, the 800 bullets on day 1 you mentioned: This is another unfinished work, trader loot and rewards should have been rebalanced in A20, but this was postponed to A21, I assume because they fundamentaly changed the looting code because of the RWG changes and so had no time for that. Yes, TFP is slow for anyone looking from outside, don't expect this to change.

 

Actually I just saw a ticket this morning that changed ammo and throwables quest rewards to half the amount they were in A19. But....this won't change the fact that someone can still spam the quests and get 400 bullets instead of 800 and probably a dozen or so molotovs and pipe bombs. 

 

And if someone wants to do that and is happy with the result more power to them. I can respect min/maxers who min/max and enjoy it and have fun with the results they get. What I don't respect is someone choosing to play in a way that destroys their fun and they will not (or cannot) stop themselves even when it is pointed out to them. Why continue to suffer when the solution is so easy?  Don't we all have a huge pile of unplayed games collecting dust or sitting there greyed out uninstalled in our Steam Library because we stopped having fun with them and so we...uh...stopped playing them? Why self flagellate with a video game? At least with this one instead of uninstalling you can play a mod or you can (in classic sandbox fashion I might add which is also one of the genres in the mix) set your own goals, challenges, and limitations and enjoy that for yourself.

[pahbi]

On 9/26/2021 at 8:47 PM, bachgaman said:

Since, obviously, nothing of the proposed will never appear in the game, I reasoned that since I do not like the fact that the game forces me to repeatedly grind the same sad quests (because the trader's rewards are too high and it takes very little time to complete quests located close to the base) i have to simple delete the trader.

 

So, 

1. I removed all traders from the POI list

2. Installed the Undead Legacy mod (since it, among other things, removed the free opening of all important recipes in the game just for levels, here you can die of hunger and here there is at least some kind of death penalty. I think UL is best big mod btw)

3. Reduced the loot to 50%, disabled loot respawn, set the difficulty level Warrior (there is even no need for the Insane difficulty level at nightmare speed, without 600 rounds (for three people) for each completed tier 1 quest, it becomes quite difficult to play)

 

And voila, the game became really fun and interesting. We've been surviving for 40 days now, looking for food, moving around a huge 12kmap, looking for a claw hammer to create a workbench (lol), all the time trying to figure out how to defend ourselves against the bloody moon based on what we have, do what we want instead of a stupid grind of quests, we have the option not to push the int attribute for the sake of the imbe perks associated with the trader (Barter and Adventurer). We save ammo, and this is my first time hunting with bow in this game and so on. In general, the game has become unrealistically cool.

 

I advise everyone to delete the trader and play with real pleasure as true enjoyer.

 

Its your sandbox!  Go for it! 

 

 

[Vaeliorin]

10 hours ago, Matt115 said:

1. Yep level is not lost and that's good if you want to lose everything you can just delet save. Lose level is so hard to implemeted so nobody do this - if i good remember one guy working on titan quest talk about this in interview.

There's actually a mod for this.

 

 

[meganoth]

26 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Actually I just saw a ticket this morning that changed ammo and throwables quest rewards to half the amount they were in A19. But....this won't change the fact that someone can still spam the quests and get 400 bullets instead of 800 and probably a dozen or so molotovs and pipe bombs. 

 

Ah, nice. Though I think halving that amount is not enough. Even with a mediocre pipe weapon I would guess 100 bullets are at least 20 dead zombies.

 

26 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

And if someone wants to do that and is happy with the result more power to them. I can respect min/maxers who min/max and enjoy it and have fun with the results they get. What I don't respect is someone choosing to play in a way that destroys their fun and they will not (or cannot) stop themselves even when it is pointed out to them. Why continue to suffer when the solution is so easy?  Don't we all have a huge pile of unplayed games collecting dust or sitting there greyed out uninstalled in our Steam Library because we stopped having fun with them and so we...uh...stopped playing them? Why self flagellate with a video game? At least with this one instead of uninstalling you can play a mod or you can (in classic sandbox fashion I might add which is also one of the genres in the mix) set your own goals, challenges, and limitations and enjoy that for yourself.

 

Since I have called for nerfing the trader as well I can't fault bachgaman for complaining, though. I can only fault him for hyperbole and impatience. 

[Matt115]

14 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Ah, nice. Though I think halving that amount is not enough. Even with a mediocre pipe weapon I would guess 100 bullets are at least 20 dead zombies.

 

 

Since I have called for nerfing the trader as well I can't fault bachgaman for complaining, though. I can only fault him for hyperbole and impatience. 

Honestly nerfing a trader is not solution- i think the best option it cut steel  parts- this would change mining in something usefull because without it you still need to scavege crates to find tools to scrap to get parts or do quests from traders or  buy 

[meganoth]

19 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Honestly nerfing a trader is not solution- i think the best option it cut steel  parts- this would change mining in something usefull because without it you still need to scavege crates to find tools to scrap to get parts or do quests from traders or  buy 

 

What do you mean? Cut steel parts from where?

[Matt115]

13 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

What do you mean? Cut steel parts from where?

From game. you now : remove spear parts machete parts , steel too parts etc. Just - make it like steel+ wood + something else like skin, duck tape . Because now after "iron stage" mining is not so usefull as before

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

From game. you now : remove spear parts machete parts , steel too parts etc. Just - make it like steel+ wood + something else like skin, duck tape . Because now after "iron stage" mining is not so usefull as before

 

Do you mean the time when the player uses iron tools when you say "iron stage"? I don't get it because after that comes the steel tools stage where mining is finally somewhat efficient.

 

[Guppycur]

Entityclasses.

Edited October 7, 2021 by Guppycur
Late to the party (see edit history)