Teaching 7D2D to new players

[secateurs]

I've been playing with a few new players recently, trying to guide them through this game and it is not easy.

 

Firstly the menu system is hideous, just a confusing mess of grey squares and minimalist grey icons.

Every skill has a silly name that doesn't really tell you what it does and for some reason, every level of that skill has a silly name too.

There are extra sub categories inside each stat just in case there weren't enough words on the screen for you.

The skill system is nowhere near deep or meaningful enough to warrant being this cumbersome.

 

Sharing quests is a huge hassle.

 

Then there's the item system, not even any colour coding of icons to help quickly categorize.

 

Why can't I set up a box to accept only certain items, and have those items be highlighted in your inventory when you access the container? So bored of the debates over where do bones or glass jars go.

Why can't a person, when within the landclaim zone, press a button to send unlocked inventory to it's appropriate box? Sorting loot is the most tedious and unfriendly part of the game

Why can't stacks be bigger in fixed containers? Would it really be gamebreaking to be able to fit all our ammo or food into one box?

Why can't engines stack? Or mods?

 

[Kyonshi]

First World problems... 😆

 

Skills and Perks all have a description. Just... read. But then you complain there's too much words. 🤷🏻‍♂️

 

Sorting our loot is part of the game. Given the situation you're in a survival mode, you'd have to gather all sorts of items and resources and you'd have to sort it all. They already added a button to send to chest all similar items that are already in them. So it actually pretty much does what you want.

 

Wanna have all 9mm and Pipe Bombs together? Put just one of each in the storage and next time you bring some more, just click that magic button and it'll send it all and stack stuff for you. You have a tooltip that appears when you go over the icon with your mouse. But yeah, its too much words again i guess.

 

If the simplistic 7DTD skill tree bothers you that much, dont ever play Cyberpunk 2077. You'll probably get nosebleed-inducing seizures 🤣

Edited September 1, 2021 by Kyonshi (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

 

Why can't engines stack? Or mods?

 

Well, for us in the automotive industry, we tend not to stack engines. 😄

[Roland]

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

I've been playing with a few new players recently, trying to guide them through this game and it is not easy.

 

I agree it can be tough. The game is still pretty complex despite the streamlining that has occurred.

 

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

Firstly the menu system is hideous, just a confusing mess of grey squares and minimalist grey icons.

 

Well aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder but the minimalist grey icons can all be moused over for a text message of what they mean. Tell your friend to mouse over icons they don't understand.

 

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

Every skill has a silly name that doesn't really tell you what it does and for some reason, every level of that skill has a silly name too.

 

The silly names are part of the The Fun Pimp style!  All silly names can also be moused over for a full description of what they do. If your friend can be taught the concept of "mouse over" then 3/4 of the battle is over. TFP might call this "No Clicky For Sticky" or "Hover Groove Brother" if it was left to them but I suggest you keep it simple with "mouse over" for your friend.

 

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

There are extra sub categories inside each stat just in case there weren't enough words on the screen for you.

 

I tried mousing over this sentence but there was no explanation forthcoming. You'll need to clarify what you mean. A stat as I understand it is like your Stamina. What are the sub categories of stamina that you are talking about? Stamina is just the stat of how much energy you have to do things. As you act it goes down and as you rest it goes up and recovers. There is no sub category within stamina that you need to try and understand. Maybe you mean something other than stat? Like perhaps the attributes? I'm not sure. I'm confused and I'm not sure it is the game's fault.

 

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

Sharing quests is a huge hassle.

 

Now I don't believe you as much as I did. This is one of the easier things to teach. I wonder whether you guys are talking to each other in real time using Discord or whether you are typing things out in the chat. 

 

1 hour ago, secateurs said:

Why can't I set up a box to accept only certain items, and have those items be highlighted in your inventory when you access the container? So bored of the debates over where do bones or glass jars go.

Why can't a person, when within the landclaim zone, press a button to send unlocked inventory to it's appropriate box? Sorting loot is the most tedious and unfriendly part of the game

Why can't stacks be bigger in fixed containers? Would it really be gamebreaking to be able to fit all our ammo or food into one box?

Why can't engines stack? Or mods?

 

I like these ideas. I can say that there are a lot of duping exploits that get created whenever the devs change how containers work so they are usually loathe to mess once they have things locked down the way they are. I'm not sure of the effort that would have to go into changing the way containers work. There are no containers that just vacuum up specific items when you are in proximity without having to open that container. Making such a change might be too time consuming and resource heavy not to mention possibly creating dozens of new duping exploits.

 

The game is already super forgiving on how much material you can fit in a tiny space. I would say, yes, we are pretty much at the limit and storing massive quantities of materials and loot should require a base that is larger than a telephone booth.  If you want to throw out all limits for yourself then download a mod. There are plenty that increase stack sizes, increase container slots, and inventory slots. Go wild.

 

Engines have quality and nothing that has quality stacks. Mods used to have quality but that was removed so it probably is either an oversight or they are still deciding whether mods should have quality or not for the game's final version.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

 

Here is truly the hardest thing to teach new players: When zombies rage, turn around and run away from them. Don't back pedal. Turn and run. 

 

My friend died time after time after time when the zombie started running suddenly until he finally decided to listen to what I kept telling him to do and stop following his own muscle memory developed from decades of Doom, Quake, Halo, and COD. THAT'S tough to teach when every instinct would tell him to just press S and mash lmb....

[secateurs]

24 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

The information you want (what a skill actually does) is the last bit of information you get.  That is the reverse of how it should be.

 

Each stat has about 10 related skills and they're divided up by "combat perks" "general strength perks" and "construction perks", in the same font with yet another icon.  Pointless visual clutter that adds nothing but confusion.

 

Quests don't even show WHO THE QUEST SHARER IS.

 

Engines haven't had quality since what? 2019? Mods never had quality on any release version.

 

jank hitboxes and animations are much bigger problem than muscle memory.

[pApA^LeGBa]

How is clicking on a quest and then clicking the icon for sharing a hassle? I am really interested how you would make that even easier than it already is. 

 

And when you share the quest, there is a text popping up on the screen that clearly says who shared it.

 

For the sorting of your inventory in containers, they will hopefully soon introduce the lock slots in your inventory option. Right now it´s only available via a mod but it´s already in the code. WIth the mod for locked slots using the inventory buttons it´s super easy and super fast to empty your inventory into containers. It´s only 2 clicks, opening the container and double clicking the first inventory button.

[meganoth]

When you highlight a quests it shows who shared it above the list (beside the buttons). The icon of the quests shows whether it is a shared quest or one of your own

 

What I would get rid of is the sharing area below the quest area. If you co-op with someone you want to get all quests he shared and there is no need for a further two clicks to select the quest and then add it (for the few times an 8 person group wants to select quests they can be inconvenienced slightly because it is the exception).

 

If not, then there should be a "get all quests" button. Our 4-man group has to tediously click >20 times each time we log on just to share the quests again

 

 

 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, secateurs said:

The information you want (what a skill actually does) is the last bit of information you get.  That is the reverse of how it should be.

Maybe…If all the perks were just listed together at the top then you would have to click through them all to see which ones shared an attribute. That would be complicated as well. Learning the skill trees is just part of learning the game and it is going to be new however it is organized. Your main complaint was the names and icons give no information. The answer to that is mousing over them so they do. It’s more helpful to see which perks are in the same family than it is to see all the perks together first. 

 

4 hours ago, secateurs said:

 

Each stat has about 10 related skills and they're divided up by "combat perks" "general strength perks" and "construction perks", in the same font with yet another icon.  Pointless visual clutter that adds nothing but confusion.

I disagree but to each their own. The “best” way to organize information will vary for each person. 

 

4 hours ago, secateurs said:

 

Quests don't even show WHO THE QUEST SHARER IS.

I agree that a momentary flash of text is probably not good enough if you really need to know who the quest sharer is. Why do you need to know who the quest sharer is?  In addition, just talk about it. Again, I get the impression you guys don’t talk. Get a discord. “I just shared my clear quest with everyone” gets it done. 
 

why do we need to know the owner of the quest again?

 

4 hours ago, secateurs said:

Engines haven't had quality since what? 2019? Mods never had quality on any release version.

So possibly oversight for engines as well or they just don’t want them to stack. Mods did have quality for almost a year during Alpha 17 development so you never played with it but they did start out that way. Also they were developed from parts which also had quality and never stacked. 

 

4 hours ago, secateurs said:

jank hitboxes and animations are much bigger problem than muscle memory.

True true. 

[Kyonshi]

5 hours ago, secateurs said:

Quests don't even show WHO THE QUEST SHARER IS.

TALK TO YOURSELVES IN THE VOICE CHAT, TELL EACH OTHER WHO IS SHARING THE QUEST AND TRY REALLY REALLY HARD TO REMEMBER WHO SHARED SAID QUEST CAPS LOCK.

[Star69]

Yeah talking is huge when teaching new players. We use Steams chatrooms instead of Discord. Not as many bells and whistles but the voices are clear.

[Maharin]

First thing you do is buy the floppy version of the game and then beat the new players with the huge stack of disks.

 

Wait... what year is this?

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Maharin said:

Wait... what year is this?

 

1 AC

[Maharin]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

 

1 AC

 

Is that volts or amps?

 

EDIT: But seriously... this game would take over 7900 1.44MB 3.5" disks or over 31000 360KB 5.25" floppies as it currently stands.

Edited September 1, 2021 by Maharin (see edit history)

[wizard puke]

11 hours ago, Maharin said:

 

Is that volts or amps?

 

EDIT: But seriously... this game would take over 7900 1.44MB 3.5" disks or over 31000 360KB 5.25" floppies as it currently stands.

 

[Ramethzer0]

On 9/1/2021 at 1:22 AM, Roland said:

 

Here is truly the hardest thing to teach new players: When zombies rage, turn around and run away from them. Don't back pedal. Turn and run.

If you have a high level of combat skill with melee;  The spear and the sledgie have enough range you can do the backpeddle and still be okay.

Definitely not for newbie combat though.

[Ornias]

Well we could go back to LBD...

[Maharin]

12 hours ago, Ornias said:

Well we could go back to LBD...

 

Might as well bring back the crafting grid, too. 

[MechanicalLens]

*Reads the title*

 

[unholyjoe]

On 9/4/2021 at 12:19 AM, Ornias said:

Well we could go back to LBD...

Learn By Dieing was never removed.

[crazywildfire]

On 9/7/2021 at 9:38 PM, unholyjoe said:

Learn By Dieing was never removed.

 

Lmao so true 

............... 

 

On topic

 

Sure some things could be easier/nicer. But it isn't that bad. If the way it is now is a deal breaker then and this is just my personal opinion and probably not a very popular one but maybe this game isn't for you. Please don't read to much into that because I'm not being ugly just sayin is all. Plenty games I don't like that others do and will say those games are not for me.  Just sayin 100,000's of people so not everyone going to agree or like the same thing. But will say this, have you ever played my summer car? That game has no guidance what so ever. Point is that this the way it is isn't that bad and could be way worse.

[White-Gandalf]

I completely agree to the thread starter.

 

While accepting opposite opinions, my opinion simply goes strictly along the lines that the thread starter and some supporters outlined here.

 

And they did a good job in that: They systematically assembled all the aspects that drove me to write my own versions of "Localization.txt", and they perfectly listed all the aspects that i changed that texts to.

 

The problem possibly is the difference in personality that the funpimps and a certain bunch of players express.

 

For me, for example, systematicality, predictability, structuredness, intuition is crucial for having fun. I am a programmer and a perfectionist. All things that go against that principles lower my fun. The same seems to count for the thread starter. And the same seems to count for at least part of the people who try to become used to the game.

 

For the funpimps, at least parts of said principles are not so relevant. They prefer hilarity, fantasy, mystic in their expressions of descriptions.

 

For me, that difference is not an unscalable obstacle: If i want the babble of the funpimps, i move my "localization.txt" to a backup place. When i want to have a clear, systematic, structured, intuitively comprehensible GUI, i put my own "localization.txt" back in place. At least THAT was done well by the funpimps, that players have the possibility to adapt their gaming environment to their liking.

 

Maybe, in the long run, the modding community could provide an alternative "localization.txt" with all supported languages in the most wanted expression colors...

[Roland]

lol...I'm so glad they are the Fun Pimps instead of the Text Book Pimps or the Reference Material Pimps. I guess my personality aligns.

[Maharin]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

lol...I'm so glad they are the Fun Pimps instead of the Text Book Pimps or the Reference Material Pimps. I guess my personality aligns.

 

If we're fans, does that make us prostitutes?  Or sex workers... or whatever the PC term is.

[Roland]

We’re the John’s, Maha. For sure, we’re the Fun Johns.