Is "Horde Night" a bad mechanic?

[geengaween]

I know this will get kneejerk disagreement because everyone is so used to it, but IMO it is a bad mechanic and holds the game back from what it should be. It reduces the open-endedness of the game and forces players to build and stockpile in one area instead of exploring the massive map.

 

It's always been a very arbitrary event that happens independently of the player's actions and is something that the player has no control over. It also zeroes in on the player's location allowing people to cheese the system by just vacating their base on day 7 and defending a prefab building they don't care about.

 

What if zombie horde nights were caused by something the player did or did not do, and could be increased or reduced depending on decisions made?

 

One example: Maybe running a big base causes huge amounts of sleeper zombies to spawn in the area around your base. Are you in a base built from scratch running 4 forges and 4 cooking fires at once? That's going to cause a lot of spawns. Are you moving from place to place camping in attics with just a box to store excess stuff? That's going to generate much less.

 

Then after 7 days, they all wake up and converge on your base. You can spend time finding and clearing these sleepers which reduce the horde night number, but that 's time consuming and dangerous. Or you can ignore them and deal with a massive amount on horde night. Nomadic players with no fixed permanent address wouldn't have to deal with large hordes because they wouldn't cause infestations.

 

IMO something like this would be a better mechanic and much closer to traditional zombie lore. It would make the game less "tower defense" and more tactical and decision oriented.

[meganoth]

So you want the zombies not converging on you but on your base, right? How do they know what your base is?

 

A) You could put up fake forges and cooking fires anywhere and burn some wood and they would converge there.

 

B) You could distribute all your workstations in a few neighboring POIs and just accept that one of them will be destroyed and rebuild the workstation in a new poi.

 

C) You could simply not build anything and just use the trader to get your stuff (i.e. the nomadic way but without going nomadic). Result: A pitiful horde that doesn't even know where to attack

 

[katarynna]

I like it the way it is.

 

I will set hordes to every 14 days in some games so that each horde is much more difficult than the one before, but they are very spaced out. I will do every 3 days sometimes. I have played games where i set them to off. The available options offer a lot of custimization.

 

Mods take care of other options. You might want to check out Khaine's Romero mod, which has blood moons disabled but has huge, huge wandering hordes every 6ish hours. You can try to avoid them if you want to, or try to pick them off from a distance, or wade in with a sledgehammer and go at it. You can also try to kite them to a horde base you have prepared, if one is close.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, geengaween said:

 

 

IMO something like this would be a better mechanic and much closer to traditional zombie lore. It would make the game less "tower defense" and more tactical and decision oriented.

Which goes against the concept of this game.  The intent of this game is a “tower defense” game.  It’s like asking the developers of Call of Duty that you want the game to be less FPS and more zombies.

 

Like Katarynna mentioned, there are settings to adjust horde nights and even mods out there that change the whole feel.  But I don’t think the developers should change the Bloodmoon horde concept.

[Maharin]

The only changes I'd really like to see to horde nights are more variety and variability.  Variety in horde sizes, intensity, and trigger event would also be nice.  Sure, base it on game stage so it gets harder as you go, but...

 

1. How about a POI that is a horde spawner?  Zombies keep piling out of it at X per minute once you get near it and won't stop until Y zombies have spawned and/or you finish the "POI proximity quest" that started the spawning in the first place.
2. A small horde that appears shortly after the first time each type of crafting station is built and placed in the world (or once per day per crafting station type placed).
3. A horde that appears shortly after you've reached certain milestones in the skill trees, such as reaching level 10 in a stat or the highest value for any skill.
4. Have a chance for a few zombies to appear as you butcher an animal.
5. Setting off explosives (and other loud events) should trigger mini hordes.  This used to be a thing but now it seems very rare at best.  Using a chainsaw to cut down trees used to almost guarantee a screamer showing up, for instance.
6. Zombies that are like sleeping screamers.  They will sit there and do nothing but face a certain direction out in the open (not in a POI).  If you cross their field of vision they will trigger a mini horde.  If you kill them from behind and quickly, no horde spawn.

I could go on...

[Roland]

The game is advertised as having tower defense as one of its genres it draws from as a hybrid game. There isn’t any interest in downplaying the tower defense aspect of the game. 
 

Just use the currently existing settings to achieve what you want. You can turn it off completely or make it happen randomly very very infrequently so that you’d not know when it will come but it’s happening is so rare it might only happen a few times during your entire play through. 
 

No need even for a mod to get this. The devs created these options for those who want a diminished or completely absent tower defense experience. 

[TWORDY]

3 hours ago, geengaween said:

I know this will get kneejerk disagreement because everyone is so used to it, but IMO it is a bad mechanic and holds the game back from what it should be. It reduces the open-endedness of the game and forces players to build and stockpile in one area instead of exploring the massive map.

There is already a possibility to disable Blood Moons in the game menus. I believe that the developers put too much focus on flipping some values. By content, I mean game mechanics, animations and items to be found. But, don`t blame the development cycle, loot progression, difficulty, and pacing of gore waves are what most of the forum talks about instead of game-changers.

>>>

The player base probably has the impression that constant tweaking of the loot progression is once a one-step backward, and the other day two steps forward. Any change brings confusion, even if it seems like the right choice at a given time. The same thing applies to Blood Moons intensity. I myself enjoyed the possibility to find LVL5 AK or anything during the first 6 days. Being stripped of that privilege left a sorrowful taste. 

 

Devs mentioned trader to trader progression, so here is probably the one solution for world exploration.

 

In my and ideal world, there would be no loot progression counted by X number of days passed, then multiplied by Y level of player. Such order sounds like a good scheme for an extremely linear and balanced Single Player/Co-op game only, not something solely dedicated for Multiplayer. 

 

Let`s presume that items are scattered across the map, so only POI`s, world map, eventually mission LVL by trader could be the main factor of loot quality and abundance - that's the most simplistic and easily imaginable system that comes to my mind. For this idea to work out, 2.5x more content is a sweet spot to the current order of things. But still, some things have to be looked into each time.

>>>

I believe that most of the players would appreciate the shift towards the survival aspects of the game instead arcade that is slowly being served. How to do so? 

- make sure that the boxes with loot are placed more randomly, not exactly on the same roof or attic - this gives a feeling of a completely predictable LOOTer game with its low value in the early stages of the game (worst imaginable implementation within A19),
- think of melee combat that is hugely reliant on stamina, how about blocking, counter-attacking, not stronger but power swing - so the game doesn`t feel like an exclusive SHOOTer even though I would like to see more content to keep me busy.
- how about no classes but one huge progression tree with endless possibilities, so we have got the character, protagonist with its own path with fewer RPG frames and elements if possible?
- the game needs full mechanics with animations - swimming, suspension in the vehicles so wheels may finally react to curvature instead of bouncing off like a heavy plastic container, leaning while riding on the bicycle and many more basic mechanics... the list goes on...

 

I don`t want to offend anyone. I`d rather take some criticism and stay delusional instead of cultivating a cult of self-sublimation.

 

[Dark_Shadow_231]

For me, I would hate to see the end of the blood moons, but there is one complication they bring that I don't think I've seen a solution to.

 

They put you at a disadvantage if people are playing when you are not.

Even if you put PVP aside, if you are on a server, and not all part of the 1 same group, then having less time between subsequent blood moons is a disadvantage, they naturally consume your resources.

 

What the solution would be, I don't know.

[Maharin]

1 hour ago, TWORDY said:

I don`t want to offend anyone.

 

Just get creative with your insults and everybody wins!  Well, there will be losers...

[Fanatical_Meat]

Personally I would prefer to hordes to be much, much larger.

Hundred of easy to kill zombies.

I would prefer headshot only to kill but that mechanic would probably be too irritating on horde night.

my ideal horde would be 100s of zombies that run the entire night maybe open with some special zombies like the demo guy and tail off a little at the end.

I would like there to be so many zombies they can climb on top of each other and reach a roof if left uncontrolled.

I don’t want drones but maybe as envisioned a healing drone would be okay.

I don’t like turrets but some large caliber gun emplacements would be cool.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Fanatical_Meat (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

It's not a bad mechanic. My first hord night, I got my ass kicked. The second time I got my ass kicked. The third time I figured it out. It was great, got my heart pounding, especially when they added the red skies and the lightning before the sun went down.

 

I started in alpha 7. Sometime around alpha 18, hord became a distraction. I was spending more and more time on the base I was using for that one night, it was not my home base. Generally not very far from it.

 

I turned it off. If you're getting tired of it, you can turn it off too.

[Laz Man]

Horde nights is a huge part of what makes 7 days different from many other similar zombie games that and voxels.  Also, since the main quest line /story  is still missing from the game, its a good mechanic that gives players a nice goal /challenge.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Laz Man (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 minute ago, Laz Man said:

Horde nights is a huge part of what makes 7 days different from many other similar zombie games that and voxels.  Also, since the main quest line /story  is still missing from the game, its a good challenge mechanic that gives players a nice goal /challenge.

yep i must agree 

[madmommy]

2 hours ago, ElCabong said:

It's not a bad mechanic. My first hord night, I got my ass kicked. The second time I got my ass kicked. The third time I figured it out. It was great, got my heart pounding, especially when they added the red skies and the lightning before the sun went down.

 

I started in alpha 7. Sometime around alpha 18, hord became a distraction. I was spending more and more time on the base I was using for that one night, it was not my home base. Generally not very far from it.

 

I turned it off. If you're getting tired of it, you can turn it off too.

 

I'm straight up chicken. And I like open world discovery, so I turn off blood moon hordes. I appreciate the ability to do so. If I play multi-player, I would probably leave it on, as it would feel more natural to try with a group. 

[ElCabong]

41 minutes ago, madmommy said:

 

I'm straight up chicken. And I like open world discovery, so I turn off blood moon hordes. I appreciate the ability to do so. If I play multi-player, I would probably leave it on, as it would feel more natural to try with a group. 

I'm more like that too which is why I got bored and turned it off.

[Roland]

6 hours ago, TWORDY said:

In my and ideal world, there would be no loot progression counted by X number of days passed, then multiplied by Y level of player. Such order sounds like a good scheme for an extremely linear and balanced Single Player/Co-op game only, not something solely dedicated for Multiplayer. 

 

This game IS focused first and foremost on Single Player and Co-op gameplay. "Multiplayer" as in competitive PvP gameplay is not the focus at all. This is not by any stretch of the imagination a game that is solely dedicated for non-cooperative multiplayer. The maximum supported players is only eight. It is meant to be a game for friends and families to play co-operatively to survive the zombie onslaught or to do so on your own.

 

The devs have said they would like to turn their focus to PvP multiplayer gameplay after the game launches but THAT will be the tacked-on aspect of this game and not SP/Co-op.

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, TWORDY said:

I believe that most of the players would appreciate the shift towards the survival aspects of the game instead arcade that is slowly being served. How to do so?

 

I don't know. There are dozens of games around who cater to survival players. Valheim comes to mind, some of what you listed seems straight out of it, so I would assume many of those players have gone to survival-centric games. And I think 7D2D has collected all those players who want survival light.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Maharin]

55 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I don't know. There are dozens of games around who cater to survival players.

 

On good one is The Long Dark.  It is not for people that like to rush through games or for people that expect victory in every play through, though.

[saltychipmunk]

The horde night is the best part of the game.

 

We have tons and tons and tons AND TONS of low pressure  half baked survival games where the survival elements are tedious  or non existent.

Frankly most of them you are done surviving the moment you get a roof over your head  and a door. Trusting that the actual game play be made up for by the player getting "bored "  enough to go outside and do stuff.

 

Thats Ark.  Thats conan exiles ,  thats rust.   they have that chill nothing ever happens gameplay down on lock.

 

And result is that without players those worlds just feel static. nothing actually happens unless some  bored player does something profoundly stupid to entertain themselves.

 

There are very few survival games where  survival isnt solved instantly or sidelined with a few routine "chores" you go through. There are fewer still  that make surviving into a mechanic with .. actual game play. And of those only a few are actually challenging.

 

That is what the 7d hord is . Its the force that challenges your right to survive in this game.  starving is a joke . so is thirst. we all know this.  you cannot feel the hunger of your avatar , its pain or its thirst. You cant feel sick for them either. So all of those  mechanics are superfluous.  But having your base obliterated or your character  annihilated actually does provide tangible  effects to you .. loss of progress  or if you are hardcore .. game over.

 

By that token its also the same force that motivates you to actually do stuff . In 7d2d the answer to why you are doing anything isnt just flimsy "just cuz" its a very clear "to get ready for hord night".  And that is refreshing in a genre that is  perplexingly flaccid and softcore despite having "survival" in the name.

 

besides if you have an issue with it .. cant you change your settings to make it a non factor anyway? 

 

[Laz Man]

36 minutes ago, saltychipmunk said:

The horde night is the best part of the game.

 

We have tons and tons and tons AND TONS of low pressure  half baked survival games where the survival elements are tedious  or non existent.

Frankly most of them you are done surviving the moment you get a roof over your head  and a door. Trusting that the actual game play be made up for by the player getting "bored "  enough to go outside and do stuff.

 

Thats Ark.  Thats conan exiles ,  thats rust.   they have that chill nothing ever happens gameplay down on lock.

 

And result is that without players those worlds just feel static. nothing actually happens unless some  bored player does something profoundly stupid to entertain themselves.

 

There are very few survival games where  survival isnt solved instantly or sidelined with a few routine "chores" you go through. There are fewer still  that make surviving into a mechanic with .. actual game play. And of those only a few are actually challenging.

 

That is what the 7d hord is . Its the force that challenges your right to survive in this game.  starving is a joke . so is thirst. we all know this.  you cannot feel the hunger of your avatar , its pain or its thirst. You cant feel sick for them either. So all of those  mechanics are superfluous.  But having your base obliterated or your character  annihilated actually does provide tangible  effects to you .. loss of progress  or if you are hardcore .. game over.

 

By that token its also the same force that motivates you to actually do stuff . In 7d2d the answer to why you are doing anything isnt just flimsy "just cuz" its a very clear "to get ready for hord night".  And that is refreshing in a genre that is  perplexingly flaccid and softcore despite having "survival" in the name.

 

besides if you have an issue with it .. cant you change your settings to make it a non factor anyway? 

 

You nailed it.  Couldn't have said it better myself.  Hopefully the hunger/thirst and other survival elements get the right tuning so they are no longer non issues as well.

 

The horde mechanic shines best in SP or single save coop imo. Whereas in MP, its way to easy to opt out (e.g. log off, let others do all the work, etc.)

 

 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Laz Man said:

Hopefully the hunger/thirst and other survival elements get the right tuning so they are no longer non issues as well.

 

Every time TFP has tuned the game in the past to make survival elements matter more we get a big negative reaction and they end up softening things up again.

 

3 hours ago, meganoth said:

And I think 7D2D has collected all those players who want survival light.

 

Maybe that's the reason...

[Hyperbolt]

I wouldnt have played this game as much as i have if it wouldnt been for the bloodmoon horde! As others have stated, in many other survivalgames, you build a shelter and then a reliable food supply, then youre set! There is no big background threat thats gonna wreck your base...

This is why i enjoy 7 days so much, it gives that threat that makes you go out to get more stuff to help your survival! 

 

But if one does not like BM, you can turn it off, or have it farther apart and smaller hordes, there is plenty of customization for that. 

[meganoth]

Before the next one ends his post with "you can turn off horde night", the OP did NOT suggest to remove horde night, but make it more dynamic, give the player more influence, especially for nomadic playstyle.

 

This isn't necessarily a bad idea. But from idea to implementation there are many problems to solve, holes to fix, balances to be rebalanced and compromises to be made. And ultimately many of those ideas then do not work as hoped or are simply too much work.

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by meganoth (see edit history)

[katarynna]

When i mentioned that i sometimes turn off hordes, i was not implying that the op was trying to remove horde nights. 

 

I just mentioned it as one of a list of many ways that the horde night can be customized on a per game basis to make each playthrough feel different and unique. I feel that while we don't have direct in-game influence over the blood moon horde, we have many options to customize it before the game starts.

 

The options you choose can make the horde feel like a rare but catastrophic event, like a nightly but ever increasingly dangerous attack, like an unpredictable but rare or unpredictable but common threat, or something that doesn't even exist.

 

Sure, more choices are nice, but we already have a lot of choices. I personally would prefer more development time went to things we are still missing than to giving even more choices and options to a feature that is already rich with choices and options.

[Roland]

I see that I misunderstood the

OP as I focused on the “less tower defense” phrase. I still think that a solution could be to have horde nights be more rare if you feel it overwhelms gameplay in its current form. 
 

As to the OP’s specific ideas, I’m not for giving the player control over whether the eventhappens or not or is less or more. This is a survival game and things beyond our control should happen and then we strive to survive. I like that the player is not the center of the universe and responsible for everything that happens. 
 

The horde is a result of the blood moon phase and not due to anything the player does or does not do. Personally, I like that just fine. Additionally, I get enough sleeper gameplay via POI exploration. I don’t feel like I need more of that for the bloodmoon horde. 
 

I think if you are a nomadic player and don’t want to build a dedicated defense base then using an existing building is perfectly valid. If you want horde night to have less of an impact then ride the night out at the top of a massive building and then mop up in the morning. If you want to be more involved, use a smaller structure.

 

I respect that the ideas the OP presented would be improvements in their view but in my view the general form of it is already fantastic. My improvements would be:

 

1) Random pause lengths between waves and continual waves until morning. 
 

2) More dominant weaknesses vs certain traps. So one zombie type is very susceptible to fall damage, another to spikes, another to barb wire,another to fire, etc. 
 

3) More traps and defensive options. Now that there are no gore blocks and z bodies disappear, bring back log spikes, allow us to make honey pots with animal meat so we have planned spots to throw area effect explosives and there will be a group congregated there, let us add broken glass to walls so they give damage as they take damage, flame thrower traps, gasoline soaked terrain blocks that can be ignited and spread to other gasoline soaked blocks, etc. 

 

Make it even more tower defense like instead of less and that would be the path to improvement, imo

Edited August 9, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)