A20 Developer Diary Discussions

[dahkdm]

10 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

1. Are you a moderator? No? Then that's not your responsibility. If the mods sense a problem with toxicity, then they will take it upon themselves to put those individuals back in place. I certainly was. Unless you're a mod, and I know I'm one to talk, just stop trying to meddle in matters that do not concern you.

 

2. So you're better than us? That's the vibe I'm getting from you, and I'm sure others are as well.

 

Edit reason: made myself seem less blunt... hopefully.

1. Excellent gatekeeping. I'm not making you do anything. Even if I were to set a "better example," it's clear I'm an outsider either way.

 

2. The "cool people (like myself)" bit was a joke.

 

You are only proving my point when it comes to the toxicity angle.

[MechanicalLens]

11 minutes ago, beHypE said:

That being said I don't look forward to starting a 2nd Valheim playthrough, because while the game is fun it definitely doesn't have much replayability value for now; one of the biggest asset 7DTD has over Valheim (or should I say, had, before loot linearity killed this aspect) is loot rarity and randomness.

 

Ahh, so you mean lack of complete loot balance? 7D2D has needed this for years in my opinion. Seriously, just go back to A18 for a couple in-game days and bare witness to the explosion of overpowered loot starting day 1 onwards. It felt disgusting in many ways getting a T5 AK, a T3 junk turret, a T3 steel pickaxe, etc. within my first loot run. What we have no completely removes the possibility of this scenario occurring at any point in the game. But with that being said, hopefully gamestaged biomes in A20 satisfies your tastes.

*now, not "no"

[SnowDog1942]

1 hour ago, dahkdm said:

Shown: someone not acting toxic at all.

 

There's a clear line between reasonable and unreasonable criticism, and comments like "you need to optimize A19 before A20" are just silly. There's a general thread of antagonism throughout this whole community and it is lame and alienating.

 

Do you even know what toxic means?

 

"You need to optimize A19 before A20" is clearly misguided and completely wrong and not what the devs will do.  Also, not even REMOTELY toxic.

 

Toxic would be "Hey you stupid (insert curse word)  --- can you optimize this Piece of (insert curse word) game so my friends and can play? you lazy (insert curse word) Devs

Edited March 23, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Xtrakicking]

8 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Do you even know what toxic means?

 

"You need to optimize A19 before A20" is clearly misguided and completely wrong and not what the devs will do.  Also, not even REMOTELY toxic.

 

Toxic would be "Hey you stupid (insert curse word)  --- can you optimize this Piece of (insert curse word) game so my friends and can play? you lazy (insert curse word) Devs

Smart way to blow off steam without getting banned

[MechanicalLens]

Just now, Xtrakicking said:

Smart way to blow off steam without getting banned

 

Some of us are bored without anything better to do with our time. 😜

[dahkdm]

20 minutes ago, SnowDog1942 said:

 

Do you even know what toxic means?

 

"You need to optimize A19 before A20" is clearing misguided and completely wrong and not what the devs will do.  Also, not even remotely toxic.

 

Toxic would be "Hey you stupid (insert curse word)  --- can you optimize this Piece of (insert curse word) game so my friends and can play? you lazy (insert curse word) Devs

So, a rose is a rose by any other name. Even if it isn't what you would specifically call "toxic" -- that's probably a difference between our idiolects, and there's no issue with that -- there's still something misguided and antagonistic behind it. You can call it whatever you like, but my point is that I've noticed it's common in this community.

 

And you reacting with a poop emoji to all of my posts isn't really helping your case, lol.

Edited March 23, 2021 by dahkdm (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

So, a rose is a rose by any other name. Even if it isn't what you would specifically call "toxic" -- that's probably a difference between our idiolects, and there's no issue with that -- there's still something misguided and antagonistic behind it. You can call it whatever you like, but my point is that I've noticed it's common in this community.

This community is "great" in bluntness which might be mistaken for toxicity. Bluntness can't go softer than what the developers themselves exemplify 😉

 

[Urban Blackbear]

Haha there's a reason why the truth and a hammer share adjectives.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, dahkdm said:

From this thread, wow this community is acting toxic. I think the game is great and I'm excited for A20 and all future Alphas. Especially for bandits.

 A worse problem is derailing the developer's diary from discussion with the developer about A20 to a bunch of people arguing about the meaning and levels of toxicity in the overall forums. This is why there is a rule to simply report offending posts and otherwise ignore them. In the future, if you find a post toxic, report it and don't respond to it. If you want to discuss ways to make the forums a better place start a thread in general discussions for that purpose instead of trying to do it in the official developer diary thread. This goes for everyone. Please don't just post whatever non-A20 development topics that come to your mind in that thread. They are off topic.

[SnowDog1942]

3 hours ago, dahkdm said:

So, a rose is a rose by any other name. Even if it isn't what you would specifically call "toxic" -- that's probably a difference between our idiolects, and there's no issue with that -- there's still something misguided and antagonistic behind it. You can call it whatever you like, but my point is that I've noticed it's common in this community.

 

And you reacting with a poop emoji to all of my posts isn't really helping your case, lol.

Roland, apparently the poop emoji is toxic, can we get it removed?  Lol.

 

Toxicity is how you say something, not the point you are making.  Saying i dont like this game because of x,y, and z is not toxic in itself.  It very much matters HOW you say it.

 

id bet the vast majority would agree that simply saying “You need to optimize A19 before A20” is NOT toxic.  
 

Edit:  Sorry Roland, too late seeing your post.

Edited March 23, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Roland]

Everyone has different levels of sensitivity to negativity and sarcasm. Any time you post something with a bite to it you run the risk of offending someone else who is sensitive to that sort of thing. That doesn't mean we can't be sarcastic or negative but if we are going to post on the more provocative end of the spectrum, we should also be willing to apologize for any unintended hurt feelings we caused (if that ends up happening) as well as be willing to back off on our tone and focus on the point of our post. Really, it just makes sense that if our tone and way of delivering our message is getting in the way of our point then we ought to make a change if we care at all about our point getting through.

 

Everyone has a bad day at times and may post more roughly than they might otherwise and dry sarcastic humor doesn't always translate well. I think any message board on the internet is always just one post away from going toxic because that is just the nature of anonymity paired with egos. If someone crosses the line, in your opinion, report the post and do nothing else. People who post toxic messages religiously check for responses to see who they might have provoked. Giving them crickets until their post is hidden by a moderator is the best troll you can send back to them.

 

Finally, the poop reaction emoji carries no negative forum penalties. There is no negative reputation associated with it. 

[MechanicalLens]

22 minutes ago, Roland said:

Finally, the poop reaction emoji carries no negative forum penalties. There is no negative reputation associated with it. 

 

Is there a reason for there being a poop emoji in addition to a thumbs down emoji? As far as I'm concerned they carry the same message. 🤷‍♂️

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, Blake_ said:

So that's what all the testing branch updates were all about. As much as I understand the commercial value of a20 being optimized and having a big impact, optimizations on that scale released sooner rather than later will always have a positive impact on the game as a whole in every marketing aspect, both for new players and "old" ones. 

 

That is, as long as you think it's easy to port and doesn't introduce too much "paperwork" then go ahead. I won't mind the map restart if the game behaves 15% smoother in every instance. Last patch 2-3 years before a20 exp is indeed a sweet spot and keeps the crowd interested.

 

There, I fixed it for you.

[Aldranon]

32 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Is there a reason for there being a poop emoji in addition to a thumbs down emoji? As far as I'm concerned they carry the same message. 🤷‍♂️

 

Comedic relief?

 

I'd say about half the emoji are that way in some degree and subsequently could be taken as toxic, depending on how sensitive the person is.

I still remember a marine said to a bunch of people who were sweating the load:

"People, people, no one is shooting at us". 

 

Which is similar to a line in a fictional WW1 book (Forgot the author):

"Don't shoot!  There are people here."

I remember the line because it was so sane it was funny and at the same time a sad testimony to the state of our world. 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Aldranon
spelling (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

55 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Finally, the poop reaction emoji carries no negative forum penalties. There is no negative reputation associated with it. 

But you have to admit you are jealous of me holding the record for the post that got pooped on the most. 

[dahkdm]

 

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I think any message board on the internet is always just one post away from going toxic because that is just the nature of anonymity paired with egos.

In my experience, this isn't true for every community. There are cool, chill places to hang out online -- even places with thousands of active users. They aren't common, but they certainly exist.

 

3 hours ago, SnowDog1942 said:

Roland, apparently the poop emoji is toxic, can we get it removed?  Lol.

 

Toxicity is how you say something, not the point you are making.  Saying i dont like this game because of x,y, and z is not toxic in itself.  It very much matters HOW you say it.

 

id bet the vast majority would agree that simply saying “You need to optimize A19 before A20” is NOT toxic.  
 

Edit:  Sorry Roland, too late seeing your post.

The emoji itself is neutral. The use of it, when you went back to every post I made and reacted to each one at once, was petty. I got notifs for each one due to default forum settings.

 

You also did not respond to my argument. Like I said, you might not call it toxic, that's fine. But the way that you, now, are acting is needlessly antagonistic.

Edited March 23, 2021 by dahkdm (see edit history)

[Roland]

28 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

In my experience, this isn't true for every community. There are cool, chill places to hang out online -- even places with thousands of active users. They aren't common, but they certainly exist.

I guess it’s as possible as Narnia but I’d be willing to bet that even these other chill places could go toxic in an instant depending on what was posted. But maybe not... maybe there are some places where the ultimate degree of Kumbaya has been achieved and creating a ripple in those ponds is impossible....
 

[dahkdm]

1 minute ago, Roland said:

I guess it’s as possible as Narnia but I’d be willing to bet that even these other chill places could go toxic in an instant depending on what was posted. But maybe not... maybe there are some places where the ultimate degree of Kumbaya has been achieved and creating a ripple in those ponds is impossible....
 

There's a big difference between a chill community and a "Kumbaya Narnia." Yeah, you're going to have a bit of crappiness online no matter what, but the thing is that the crappiness is not a broad trend in a chill community.

[pregnable]

I am cool and handsome and everyone likes me.  np. 

[SnowDog1942]

34 minutes ago, pregnable said:

I am cool and handsome and everyone likes me.  np. 

Weird coincidence - my mom told me I was cool and handsome and everyone liked me.

 

Are you my brother?

Edited March 23, 2021 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Roland]

11 minutes ago, dahkdm said:

There's a big difference between a chill community and a "Kumbaya Narnia." Yeah, you're going to have a bit of crappiness online no matter what, but the thing is that the crappiness is not a broad trend in a chill community.

Well I don’t see a broad trend around here. I think people are pretty chill most of the time especially when helping people learn how to play so it must really come down to your own perception. I have to say that the post that demanded A19 to be done before A20 was pretty innocuous and to my surprise the developers answered that there WOULD be additional fixes coming to A19. If you are sensitive to that level of toxicity then this community might not be your cup of gluten...
 

This is a site for fans of a gritty irreverent gory zombie game after all. Most of us probably like to trash talk and razz while we play and so there is going to be some of that attitude carried over into the community. This place is unlikely ever to be one of those chill places you like. 
 

 

It’s just too snappy. 

[beerfly]

Back to the topic everyone.  

Edited March 23, 2021 by beerfly (see edit history)

[beHypE]

10 hours ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Ahh, so you mean lack of complete loot balance? 7D2D has needed this for years in my opinion. Seriously, just go back to A18 for a couple in-game days and bare witness to the explosion of overpowered loot starting day 1 onwards. It felt disgusting in many ways getting a T5 AK, a T3 junk turret, a T3 steel pickaxe, etc. within my first loot run. What we have no completely removes the possibility of this scenario occurring at any point in the game. But with that being said, hopefully gamestaged biomes in A20 satisfies your tastes.

*now, not "no"

 

No, I don't mean a "lack of complete loot balance". I'm sure there is a fine middleground between "the path to greatness is tailored like a 20cm wide staircase" and "everything is handed to me on day 1". I'm not saying finding a level 5 M60 on day 1 should be a thing on a regular basis, but the loot progression definitely can't feel like the iLvl of items in a game like Diablo, for there aren't funky affixes or various bonus effects attached to make the small item pool at any given stage rich and fun enough. I mean, as a whole, yes; your overall progression should be a steady grind. But the odd lucky find here and there could change the course of your gameplay on a handful of occasions, and it would be different in each game. 

 

What's wrong about being lucky and finding a Q5 pistol on Day 6 ? Most likely you aren't even specialized in pistols to begin with, thus expanding the realm of choices at one point or another when you'll need to choose between using that lucky drop or a level 2 shotgun you've put points in. Right now ? There are no choices. You'll always find around the exact same quality for all items, thus automatically rendering most of them useless since they aren't of your skill branch.

 

Also, equipment quality is one side of the loot table. The other side revolves around recipes, crafting table components and various other items; that got changed aswell and ended that "imminent breakthrough drop" hope I used to enjoy. Sometimes you'd find calipers early, sometimes a beaker. Sometimes you'd start completing the motorcycle recipe before even having your first bicycle schematic. Va-rie-ty. Now you fill your chest with bicycle recipes and wood cutting mods, and sometimes make a trip to the traders to turn that into an easy buck. 

 

Luckily, like you stated, it's being worked on ! If I had to choose between only one feature among all of A20, it would definitely be this one. A balanced but linear loot progression just breaks the fun too much in a game that emphasizes on looting so much. The prolonged wait starts materializing in the form of excitment more and more, and I hope it will blow my expectations out of the window 😄

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by beHypE (see edit history)

[Guppycur]

Who's being toxic?  Example?

 

...my guess is you're just not familiar with the historical context of some of these discussions, which have been going on between some of us, for... Crap, years.

 

Roland, you're one of my oldest friends.  Congrats. 😉

[Roland]

10 minutes ago, Guppycur said:

Who's being toxic?  Example?

 

...my guess is you're just not familiar with the historical context of some of these discussions, which have been going on between some of us, for... Crap, years.

 

Roland, you're one of my oldest friends.  Congrats. 😉

 

Lean on me, my friend. Just not in the game. It was never implemented.