Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Firecat]

I've kept my mouth shut about the block changes so far because I had mixed initial feelings and I wanted to sort through my thoughts and explore the new changes a bit before officially reacting.

 

Full disclosure I'm one of those people who does like to have the option to partially melee the horde, so I had been using a pole window to accomplish this in alpha 19. HOWEVER the fact that the block changes ruin my "standard base design" is not that big of a deal to me. I'm a creative person. I'll make a new one, using the blocks that aren't nerfed.  I'll make a gap using half blocks, or I'll build a window out of bars with a hatch in it to open and hit stuff. Challenge accepted. It's fine. Actually, I've had some positive experience with the changes in one way: it makes smashing concrete trim on POIs when remodeling take far less long!

 

I also appreciate some element of realism, so my initial thought was that despite the shakeup this change might be a good thing, since on the surface, it makes SENSE. Except... on further reflection,  it kind of doesn't.

 

I've decided I dislike this change, and think it needs reverting or reworking, and here is why:

 

A) The small amount of added "realism" actually makes the lack of realism MORE obvious. The changes apply to certain blocks arbitrarily, regardless of volume and structural integrity to one another. Why does a double pole have the same HP as a single pole? Why is a plate 50% hp of a block, when it is only 10% of the volume? Why does a plate have more hp than a pole, when in reality the compressed shape of the pole could probably withstand more of a beating than the large thin surface area of the plate could? Why does everything still have the same structural strength, even if less HP? Before everything was uniform in its unrealism, which allowed for a certain suspension of disbelief around the system. And trying to adjust for even further realism is only going to make the system even more complex.

 

B) Speaking of which, this change adds unnecessary complexity. Before everything was simple. Every shape was functionally the same in hitpoints and cost, and structural integrity too (despite certain shapes irl never would hold others up). A player could just craft their blocks, pick a shape, and build, no extra worries. Now it's complicated, for both the players and from a game design perspective. Systems need to be added to scale material cost by block hp, and give players a way of quickly telling what blocks have what HP before placing them. Players now need to worry about whether the blocks they chose will be strong enough for the base's purpose, and will have to constantly check block HP until they have it mostly memorized which ones are weaker. Before, we could decide what functionality we wanted our base to have, and then build to that functionality with the maximum aesthetic freedom. Now we have to CHOOSE in certain cases between aesthetics and maximum functionality.

 

C) I agree with others who say it is going to stunt aesthetic creativity due to this. Players are going to be creative in GETTING AROUND this change, and will still build bases with whatever exact functionality they had in mind before. But the aesthetics suffer because the players options are now further limited to an extent.

 

Edit: Ok, I will grant there are a FEW shapes that even on a total revert should be left at lower HP. These are shapes that feel like they are "barely there" to begin with. Sheets, and those bent sheets that loot hides behind, and flimsy glass windows, are the ones that immediately come to mind. If it looks like you could take a fist and punch a hole in it in real life, then it "feels" fine to be able to just haul off and smash it in one blow with a tool in game, too. For whatever reason, at least for me, the lower HP on these things has never bothered me, and I think there are few enough of this sort of thing it could easily be designed to separate or categorize them out in the shape menu in such a way that it was obvious which ones were the lower HP blocks.

[Matt115]

okay 2 questions :

1.  Will fat cop get new gibs in this new alpha too?

2. Will be number of seeds from farming buffed?

[MuffinMan]

35 minutes ago, Kosmic Kerman said:

 

I'm sure they are all ears if you have any suggestions. GC has to occur and they figured having it occur during looting, opening inventory, etc. was the safest time to have it.

Oh I've got lots of suggestions but I don't know much about the existing code base, so sorry TFP 

 

But the biggest suggestion is to reduce the amount of allocations. Given how "large" this GC spike is (if that's what it is) and how regular it is, I am guessing there are tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of allocations occurring between them. If you can find ways to combine allocations so that the list is smaller it will execute quicker even if it is more memory being consumed. ie Having 10000 objects being collected that consume 10MB of memory will take much longer than 1 object consuming 20MB of memory.

 

Coding practices with C# and object languages in general are usually quite anti-performance in the name of object orientated design. So removing as many "new" as possible in your constructors is a good start. Using data-orientated-design in some places with "managers" is how very efficient game engines work whilst still retaining ease of working on it. So instead of like "var cube = new Cube()" you do something like "var Cube = CubeManager.NewCube()" which has an array internally to bunch similar data together rather than having it all over the place. Moving the memory management to your own code as much as possible in the performance related areas is key.

 

They may have already optimized this a lot and the problems come from Unity, like I said I am ignorant about their code base. 

 

 

[Khalagar]

Seems like TFP could pretty easily resolve all the "I want to melee enemies without it being cheesy" arguments by just making a window type that can be melee'd through but not crawled through, and without the high health of a full block.  Maybe something like a hatch frame that can be open and closed

[pregnable]

17 hours ago, faatal said:

Already changed that today. Upgrade, repair and harvesting all scale.

 

We are still testing and thinking about these changes like many parts of the game. I'm currently leaning towards two buckets. 25% (or 33%) and 100%. The 25 being the obviously flimsy/weak/small blocks that should not be stopping anything from breaking through and anyone should be able to look at and say that is not going to protect me.

 

Bars were intentionally excluded because they are primary window and elevated defenses. Plates would probably move back into the 100%, but we are still discussing. Changing stuff to see what happens is what game development is about and some major changes can and do happen during experimental.

 

That would work, although you should probably put the weaker blocks in their own category, under the blocks menu, as another poster said.  Or something like that. 

[Khalagar]

A good post is on the subreddit atm, suggesting the lever action use .44 magnum ammo and I think it deserves consideration.  I would take it a step further and say the Pipe Rifle should use it too, because 44 mag ammo is basically useless loot clutter for nearly every build in the game and has absolutely zero use early game

 

Quote

I think it would be greatly beneficial for the new-lever action rifle to fire .44 magnum rounds instead of 7.62 rifle ammunition for the below reasons.

1. In real life, there are no lever action rifles that fire 7.62 (neither x39 nor NATO). If there are any, they are novelties that I've never heard of, and as such are not a commonplace weapon. The primary reason for this is that tube-fed weapons risk accidentally setting rounds off by packing pointy bullets in with each other. Lever-action rifles very commonly fire handgun ammunition, however.
2. In game, 7.62 is a massively overloaded cartridge, being used by seven weapons now. .44 magnum currently loads into two in-game weapons. Swapping the lever-action's ammunition would help give .44 magnum more utility, while easing the burden on 7.62's necessity.
3. Pistol Pete governs both 9mm and .44 magnum weapons, whereas Machine Gunner and Dead Eye both only use 7.62. This change would even help bring Dead Eye into line with the ammo versatility that Pistol Pete offers.
4. The two current .44 magnum weapons are both governed by Agility/Pistol Pete, and given the heavy-handed nature of the skill system, oftentimes players not going for agility simply do have a reason to expend handgun cartridges. This would add extra utility to .44 for non-agility builds.
5. This change would require very little work on the devs' side as .44 exists in-game already. Furthermore, it would add no new extra inventory micromanagement to players compared to adding some new cartridge like 5.56.

 

[MechanicalLens]

3 hours ago, Firecat said:

<snip>

 

Despite the fact I don't like the change, imo TFP should remain consistent with it for realism purposes, if that is one of their goals. Plates should only have 10% HP of a cube, poles should only have 5% of a cube, etc. Long story short, cubes should be the only block that has "default health".

[Aldranon]

7 hours ago, Callum123456789 said:

Or using the auger for 2 hours straight in am iron mine..i had to turn off the game volume because it was literally giving me a headache 😂

 

Maybe the sound should be less sharp.  If you hit real iron ore, it would not have a metallic sound unless it was from a meteorite anyway.

[MechanicalLens]

4 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

Maybe the sound should be less sharp.  If you hit real iron ore, it would not have a metallic sound unless it was from a meteorite anyway.

 

Counterargument: IRL augers are only used for loose or wet material, like loose dirt and sand, clay or mud. 😛

[SnowDog1942]

17 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 loose or wet

 

Like a runaway stray dog in the rain.

[Vedui]

13 hours ago, HungryZombie said:

 

Do you think with these changes there would even be a desire to use pipe weapons? Would you still use it?

 

Yes. If progression was altered. I personally had the comment watching dev streams that ammo and weapons were super common. It's not hard to have hundreds of rounds of ammo day 1-2, and a few pipe weapons. Save a bit of cash and buy a proper low quality "proper" firearm is easy day 1-2 as well.

 

If progression was day 1-5 bows and if VERY lucky a pipe weapon, then day 6-12 pipe weapons, and 13++ getting into "factory made" firearms, I think people would for sure use them.

 

Right now I commonly find pipe weapons that are better than factory made weapons. Why use that q4 Ak-47 when your Q6 pipe machinegun has more mod slots and better stats?   I'd be proud if I could with some pipes and duct tape put together something that's better than a somewhat beat up ak-47

[Aldranon]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

A good post is on the subreddit atm, suggesting the lever action use .44 magnum ammo and I think it deserves consideration.  I would take it a step further and say the Pipe Rifle should use it too, because 44 mag ammo is basically useless loot clutter for nearly every build in the game and has absolutely zero use early game

 

 

 

For this game, it would make good sense.  Ammo management is a thing in A20.  Its hard to find radiators sometimes, so ammo production can be lower than A19 rates.

A 7.62 NATO round has more kinetic energy and has better long range "Results".  But up closer (7D2D ranges), they are both very lethal, so I'm for it!

13 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Counterargument: IRL augers are only used for loose or wet material, like loose dirt and sand, clay or mud. 😛

 

That's very true.  For me, it would not make a lot of difference as the "waste" of gas bothers me and I like the feel of using a pickaxe for some reason. 

[MisutoM]

1 hour ago, Khalagar said:

A good post is on the subreddit atm, suggesting the lever action use .44 magnum ammo and I think it deserves consideration.  I would take it a step further and say the Pipe Rifle should use it too, because 44 mag ammo is basically useless loot clutter for nearly every build in the game and has absolutely zero use early game

 

 

 

It could be taken a step farther in a different direction and make the pipe pistol use .44 which would allow the damage on it to be buffed pretty substantially as it'd be balanced out by the relative rarity/cost of the ammo type early game. Then another popular suggestion that @Gazz actually asked me about on stream was to make the pipe machinegun fire 9mm. With these two changes, all ammo types would be useful early game but it'd also have other balance implications.

 

Machinegun users will use more 7.62 when they get a "real" machinegun, so by letting their primitive tier weapon use 9mm, they'll be able to save the more expensive 7.62 for later. This also opens up the door to make the pipe machinegun have it's damage lowered (as it's using a weaker ammo type) but still keep a healthy enough ammo capacity so it feels like a machinegun still. Since machineguns don't use 9mm later in their build, they wouldn't feel bad about going full auto and using all their 9mm, but they'd still have interesting friction points early game choosing between 9mm to use today or 7.62 to use eventually when they finish quests or buy from traders. Devil's advocate though - how do we convey to players that _this_ submachinegun is governed by the machinegun perk while this different submachinegun is governed by the pistol perk without confusing the player base?

 

The pipe pistol and LAR being changed to .44 means that the ammo type could be made more common and from an earlier game stage (it's incredibly rare in loot now even on day 70 in the wastelands). Pipe pistol could have it's damage buffed pretty substantially as it'd still be using the most rare and expensive ammo type, combine this with a slower rate of fire and it's already long reload animation and it'd be a perfect early game magnum and would transition perfectly into the .44 magnum at tier 2 which is fairly late game for pistol users, but they'd still have access to early game pistols (including toilet pistols on day 1 even) to use 9mm. Also, agility has access to the bow skill early game, so if their pipe weapon uses fairly rare and expensive ammo, that's ok because they have a perfectly viable other type of primitive ranged weapon. 

 

The LAR would make more sense using .44, but it'd also create another interesting balance point for the rifle skill similar to how SMG exists in pistols. Presently, the new buff to the crossbow makes it massively out-damage and out-stealth the sniper rifle and they both have functionally the same range as it's limited by the draw distance. By retooling the LAR to do more damage (to compensate for the rarity and expense of the ammo type) it could be like the reverse balance of pistols (nice asymmetric balancing that TFP like). Their tier 2 weapon could be their big damage and pretty high fire rate gun, while the sniper could become more specialized in sniping. This could be achieved by making the gun naturally more quiet and or giving it an innate stealth attack bonus similar to bows/xbows. 

 

 

None of this is a big deal though, just food for thought if the devs are still looking for a way to balance the pipe weapons and also considering other ammo type changes. 

[MechanicalLens]

47 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

For this game, it would make good sense.  Ammo management is a thing in A20.  Its hard to find radiators sometimes, so ammo production can be lower than A19 rates.

A 7.62 NATO round has more kinetic energy and has better long range "Results".  But up closer (7D2D ranges), they are both very lethal, so I'm for it!

 

That's very true.  For me, it would not make a lot of difference as the "waste" of gas bothers me and I like the feel of using a pickaxe for some reason. 

 

Speaking of which, I think I'll be exploring the alternate biomes VERY sparingly in future worlds. I have no criticism against the different biome gamestages (in fact I can't praise it enough) but when you have just crafted a T5 iron pickaxe, then you go to dig a treasure chest, loot a car on the edge of the wasteland, and pull out a T5 auger... I like having "oh my gosh moments", but I would rather not have end-game gear by like hour 30. Just my own personal taste. Haha

[Aldranon]

1 minute ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Speaking of which, I think I'll be exploring the alternate biomes VERY sparingly in future worlds. I have no criticism against the different biome gamestages (in fact I can't praise it enough) but when you have just crafted a T5 iron pickaxe, then you go to dig a treasure chest, loot a car on the edge of the wasteland, and pull out a T5 auger... I like having "oh my gosh moments", but I would rather not have end-game gear by like hour 30. Just my own personal taste. Haha

 

I hear that!  For me, the wasteland will be for when I'm getting bored and no longer mind dying "In a blaze of glory" (gory?) 

 

But its out there and I am sure that many people who are much more skilled in FPS (or don't mind dying and continue playing) will greatly enjoy that. 

I don't see anyone (of the people I normally watch) doing a playthrough in the wasteland on YouTube, I bet Games4Kicks has done or will do a playthrough on just that!

[MechanicalLens]

6 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

I hear that!  For me, the wasteland will be for when I'm getting bored and no longer mind dying "In a blaze of glory" (gory?) 

 

But its out there and I am sure that many people who are much more skilled in FPS (or don't mind dying and continue playing) will greatly enjoy that. 

I don't see anyone (of the people I normally watch) doing a playthrough in the wasteland on YouTube, I bet Games4Kicks has done or will do a playthrough on just that!

 

A wasteland series would be very short though.  Either you will die constantly, and/or you'll have endgame gear by like day 21 so... 😛

[faatal]

7 hours ago, MuffinMan said:

What about the 1-3 second "hitch" when opening inventory sometimes or talking to a shop owner?

That is a unload unused resources call. It is on a timer and has to happen sometime or memory use would keep climbing. Slower computers take longer.

7 hours ago, Wulf said:

Also happens when looting sometimes. (Also see that hitch on Youtubers video's as well so it's not just me) This hitch wasn't in A19 for me.

Same call using same rules as A19.

6 hours ago, Star69 said:

I think I remember someone(maybe Fatal) saying he’d rather have the garbage collection hitch at the trader or inventory screen rather than during a melee swing on a zombie.

Basically yes, but is the unload. Garbage collection is incremental (multiple frames) and runs every few minutes and is rarely noticed.

[Weazelsun]

So far, I like the dense urban core parts of the cities and how tiles are laid out. I just hope there is further improving on it, like right now. Like my vision of how RWG cities would be to have an actual sprawling suburban area leading into a commercial zone, then roads leading off into industrial areas. Right now, they're all packed into one zone. I want cities to have borders actually delineating that hey this is a neighborhood and now you are going into the city proper with commercial shops.  Also, I feel that RWG maps should use up more of the space, like the current map I'm on has 3 big cities and a smattering of towns. But, no towns to the extreme borders.

[POCKET951]

Has anyone done the restore power quest yet? I've avoided them at all cost because there rewards are the same as same tier fetch and clear.

 

It should be more rewarding.

 

1. It's a full clear at night,when zombies are more dangerous

2. It can only happen at night between certain times

 

 

It's basically more risk and danger for no additional rewards. And it is also restricted by time. I have had zero incentive to do them compared to other quest.

[Aldranon]

1 minute ago, POCKET951 said:

Has anyone done the restore power quest yet? I've avoided them at all cost because there rewards are the same as same tier fetch and clear.

 

It should be more rewarding.

 

1. It's a full clear at night,when zombies are more dangerous

2. It can only happen at night between certain times

 

 

It's basically more risk and danger for no additional rewards. And it is also restricted by time. I have had zero incentive to do them compared to other quest.

 

So far, its not worth the trouble IMO.

 

I think it might be a partial glimpse of the main story line for the game.  If so, it should be hard like it is.

[POCKET951]

11 minutes ago, Aldranon said:

 

So far, its not worth the trouble IMO.

 

I think it might be a partial glimpse of the main story line for the game.  If so, it should be hard like it is.

It's also annoying when I go to the trader and 3/4 of the 5 quest he offers are restore power. It would be nice if they were weighted less OR you could reroll the quest loadout 1 time a day, or maybe have a token fee to reroll quest list?

 

Also it seems like a shame to have this new quest as a big advertised feature of A20 and have it feel like it flopped. I hope they adjust or make it more appealing  to do. Or atleast add more flexibility 

[Sal]

1 hour ago, faatal said:

That is a unload unused resources call. It is on a timer and has to happen sometime or memory use would keep climbing. Slower computers take longer.

Same call using same rules as A19.

Basically yes, but is the unload. Garbage collection is incremental (multiple frames) and runs every few minutes and is rarely noticed.

See....as a person who knows nothing about game development....I always appreciate explanations like these from devs that explain the small nuances that take place behind the scenes that most of us would not even consider.  It makes it easier to understand the decisions being made in situations like this when there is no real "perfect fix" but merely weighing the positives and negatives based on what you have to work with. 

 

5 minutes ago, POCKET951 said:

Has anyone done the restore power quest yet? I've avoided them at all cost because there rewards are the same as same tier fetch and clear.

 

It should be more rewarding.

 

1. It's a full clear at night,when zombies are more dangerous

2. It can only happen at night between certain times

 

 

It's basically more risk and danger for no additional rewards. And it is also restricted by time. I have had zero incentive to do them compared to other quest.

I've only done three of them so far and I agree. The reward doesn't seem worth the higher risk.

 

I like the concept of "forcing" a player to go out at night inside of just mining, building, sorting, crafting, etc within the comfort of their own base but there should defiantly be a higher reward for risking more.  I don't have an answer but maybe a higher reward from the trader or better loot is triggered when activated?

 

[Gazz]

I take the power quest like any other - but only if I can do them without standing around and waiting for nighttime and if they are as close as other quests. Given the time window and the fact that few POI are set up for that it, resulting in long travel distance, means that 95% of the time they are genuinely bad choices.

[Vladti77]

I hope I'm in the right place to comment on the block changes. I am in agreement with the block changes but in full disagreement with the resource listings. If the hp of these blocks change then it should be reasonable that it should not take the same materials to make a 5000 hp block that it takes to make a 2500 hp block. That should be listed under the resource tab in some way because when you click on the "block shapes" it lists those blocks as having 5000 hp if made of concrete per se. I'm just using concrete as the example of course. 

 

I do think there should be some nerfing of these blocks. I don't think I should be able to set a couple of poles and melee unconditionally without much fear of zombies getting thru. I think that a balance can be found which adds a real threat when this method is in use. That being said, it is a game and when things such as the killing corridor are still a viable and hands off way of handling the horde then nitpicking on things like the block sizes are really going a bit far. When you can place blocks together that seemingly float in midair and make the zombies run a gauntlet across a tightrope of wedge tips or invert the wedge tips and stack half blocks on top and the zombies see that as still a path to run then jump to their doom or just run-in circles in a loop.  

 

I believe there are some very real game mechanics that truly break the immersion and those things need to be fixed before we jump on the players that truly do fight the hordes in their own way. When the changes to the blocks are complete, I hope that resource counts and the hp counts are adjusted to match the nerfs.

Thanks

[POCKET951]

9 minutes ago, Gazz said:

I take the power quest like any other - but only if I can do them without standing around and waiting for nighttime and if they are as close as other quests. Given the time window and the fact that few POI are set up for that it, resulting in long travel distance, means that 95% of the time they are genuinely bad choices.

Is there anything you guys are considering doing to make them more appealing, maybe even being more flexible with the time window? Make them offer a better set of rewards? Making them not require a full clear?