Alpha 20 Dev Diary

[Blake_]

2 hours ago, Xtrakicking said:

I believe the same was said for doors, was it not?

Yes. Both cars and doors were mentioned on the no-downgrading talk. What they didn't mention though, was traps (like spikes), which are unlikely to change. So the property, as meganoth said, is safe.

[Khalagar]

With all the weapon tweaking, has there been any testing and balancing on the Shotgun pellets for the Junk Turret? They really need some love IMO as there's basically no reason to spend so many resources crafting them over just crafting normal shotgun shells. The shotgun ammo has really bad return on investment because a high level Junk Turret fires REALLY fast and will blow the entire stock of shotgun ammo ridiculously quickly, and each shell does pathetic damage compared to a quality 1 unperked shotgun even when maxed out on the Junk Turret skills

 

It's a cool concept for sure, and since the work is already done implementing it, some number tweaks to make it a bit more appealing would be great!

[faatal]

21 hours ago, Guppycur said:

Will we lose support for the downgrade xml property entirely for this dumbing down change?  

Hopefully not, since it is a good feature to keep.

On 3/13/2021 at 9:08 AM, Spatch said:

Dang I hope by "punted" this means its still possible as a future change!  I love this game and where it has gone from the A11/12 days when I first started playing it, but I really miss the horde night feel when I just didn't know where they would come from and had to protect everything.  Now, you either make a killing corridor or some type of elevated path to you that they are forced to follow by their AI rules or, if you don't have one, as soon as one block is damaged, all zombies go to that one block and smash it open.

I would be very happy for a horde night sense slider and a digging slider.

Regardless, keep up the good work!

Punted in this case means not A20. Feral Sense has to do with the level that zombies can see and hear you, not blood moons or pathing. Feral sense at night for instance, would make them find you much easier, so if you go out at night, biome zeds will find you.

[Khalagar]

Testing was done by just throwing it down and letting zombies run into it, so it'd start firing as soon as it decided they were in range. Which is the only realistic test since it's how it will actually fire when you use it in real situations. Even at close range, it's damage seems significantly lower than a real shotgun, but like you said, it starts shooting early and spews out a wall of wet noodle pellets. It does get the job done eventually, but it's just so wasteful resource wise that I find it really, really, really hard to find a real use for it over just having a junk sledge + me using the shotgun instead and doing the same job with 5 shells, as would take the junk turret 35+

 

The junk turret in general is kind of bad on that front in A19 TBH. It's resource cost vs other weapons is really high for something that's supposed to be the cheapest weapon type that only uses iron. You can easily burn 10K iron clearing a PoI with junk turrets even with reserved use of them only for groups of zombies.

 

I am basically a junk sledge main now in A19 instead lol

[Gazz]

2 hours ago, Khalagar said:

The junk turret in general is kind of bad on that front in A19 TBH. It's resource cost vs other weapons is really high for something that's supposed to be the cheapest weapon type that only uses iron.

I don't think it says anywhere that it's supposed to be the cheapest. It's certainly the weapon with the most easily attained ammo type.

 

The damage of 2 turrets is in no way supposed to be equal to a maxed out T3 gun. That would be silly because it works in addition to the weapon you are holding - which can be anything.

[MechanicalLens]

3 minutes ago, Gazz said:

I don't think it says anywhere that it's supposed to be the cheapest. It's certainly the weapon with the most easily attained ammo type.

 

The damage of 2 turrets is in no way supposed to be equal to a maxed out T3 gun. That would be silly because it works in addition to the weapon you are holding - which can be anything.

 

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

 

Not complaining, just making an observation.

[Crater Creator]

 

On 3/8/2021 at 12:55 PM, madmole said:

Seems to me that is just a balance thing, and 20 [forges] is OCD if you as me, I have 2-3 max and build some large bases. They could simply smelt much faster so we don't need late game ones. We've talked about an industrial forge, but with some simplifications coming I don't see a need for it.

...

We might change the forge to a normal workstation instead type of work flow and that will change everything, so it's too early to comment on an industrial forge.

 

Too early to comment, well fair enough.  But consider that you were willing to spend time creating a big industrial washing machine that, functionally, is just another loot container.  An industrial forge and/or advanced cooking station would get a lot more 'screen time' - more bang for your buck - since it's something players would be aspiring to craft and using all the time.

[Gazz]

45 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

So basically, despite the fact this is where balance was not focused, the four other attributes could hold their own solo, to varying degrees (depending on the type of weapon), but the Intellect built would have the most trouble in this regard. M60 vs horde? Easy. Shotgun vs horde? No problem. Sniper + explosives vs horde? Doable. Pistols + SMG against horde? A cakewalk. Turrets vs horde? Obscenely difficult.

What are you even talking about?

Do you expect "just turrets" to do all the for for you while you watch? At no point was such a thing even suggested.

[Crater Creator]

 

On 3/12/2021 at 11:13 AM, madmole said:

Finally you can just build with wood, stone, concrete and steel. All the upgrades in between have been deleted, and wet concrete is gone too so less clicking and just build with steel if you want. Nothing downgrades to anything either, when the hit bar is gone the block goes poof. A fairly big change, but now each tier is meaningful and it won't be 1000 clicks to go from wood to steel now.

 

I liked all the rest of it, but this... pour one out for bricks I guess.  I've been saying for years bricks just need some balancing so there's a reason to use them - some scenario where they outcompete alternatives like cobblestone.  Instead, they get no attention until they're abandoned/reabsorbed completely.

 

So the best building system of all time will only have 4 building materials?  I would've sooner expected that in Alpha 1, not Alpha 20.  Fast forges, instant dry concrete, and deleted upgrades is going beyond simple is great.  It means eroding the game's core principle of time management.

 

I can't tell you how many times I've had to agonize over whether I have enough time to upgrade a wall and have it ready to go for the next horde night.  Will plain concrete be strong enough?  What will I regret more: not reinforcing it, or that it's still wet in a few places at the stroke of 10 o'clock?  Is my scaffolding and technique efficient enough to hit every block with a hammer in time?  No?  Okay, then which blocks do I really not want to fail the most?  This decision making is what makes building in survival more interesting than building in creative mode, and it seems we're going to lose that.

 

I would've preferred streamlining the depth, but maintaining or even expanding the breadth.  It was neat when you could build adobe cheaply in the desert, because you were leveraging the local materials available.  That could've been expanded: cinder blocks in the burnt forest, pykrete in the snowy biome, scrap iron in the wasteland.  Remember, the long, unified "1000 click" upgrade path from wood to steel was a more recent addition.  You could've kept a short path of [weak material] -> [reinforced weak material] -> concrete -> reinforced concrete -> steel, where wood, stone, and scrap iron are just three of several weak materials to choose from at the bottom of this short but broad upgrade graph.

 

[Crater Creator]

On 3/12/2021 at 11:40 AM, madmole said:

No but be assured we'll use [wet concrete's] texture space for something useful.

 

Speaking of texture space... I was excited to see the model tinting system can now be used on blocks!  It's a great way to get more mileage out of the textures without expanding the texture atlas footprint.  Will this tie in with paintable textures?  I ask because there are several paintable textures that could be remade as tints of other textures, meaning that texture space could be reallocated for new textures without expanding the atlas.

[Blake_]

6 hours ago, Gazz said:

What are you even talking about?

Do you expect "just turrets" to do all the work for you while you watch? At no point was such a thing even suggested.

I can confirm that BATON+TURRETS are barely enough to hold off an horde. I can also confirm that the exact same applies for every single attribute out there if you are butt-naked in the open. With a basic general-purpose Tower defense base I can also confirm that bases are perfectly defended at the same degree for any attribute, but then again Intellect has quite the trader/quest benefits and extremely cheap ways to build and save resources does it not? 

 

Who would've thunk uh? you need to use intellect like a person who uses intellect in order to take advantage of an attribute created after the concept of "intellect".

 

 

Let's see if the drone doesn't unbalance it further.

[Matt115]

I have a question : there is idea about new "versions" of zombies like : another type of doctor , riot police , child zombie or just diffrent clothes color for zombies?

[convergent]

On 3/14/2021 at 6:26 PM, Guppycur said:

Will we lose support for the downgrade xml property entirely for this dumbing down change?  

I sure hope not, I am using this property extensively. Also, plants rely on this to perpetuate so hopefully it stays.

[pregnable]

11 hours ago, Gazz said:

I don't think it says anywhere that it's supposed to be the cheapest. It's certainly the weapon with the most easily attained ammo type.

 

The damage of 2 turrets is in no way supposed to be equal to a maxed out T3 gun. That would be silly because it works in addition to the weapon you are holding - which can be anything.

 

It would be cool if the turrets were slightly better when used as a primary weapon though.  Maybe a buff to range and slight range in damage if you spec into them and while you are holding them as your primary weapon. 

 

The game is pretty damn good atm though, and I am sure there will probably be some weapon tweaks once bandits are in, heh. 

[Khalagar]

13 hours ago, Gazz said:

 

The damage of 2 turrets is in no way supposed to be equal to a maxed out T3 gun. That would be silly because it works in addition to the weapon you are holding - which can be anything.

 

I mean, this just loops back to the issue of "Intellect doesn't have an endgame weapon" then where it's the only perk line that isn't balanced to stand on it's own as a fleshed out build.

 

I don't really understand the logic of why Int isn't supposed to be a full build. Yes you can use the two turrets + hold a gun too if you want to spend the points and resources to do so. . . and doing that should definitely beat out someone who spent far less resources to do the same thing

 

Easy made up example comparison (not real numbers)

 

Fully perked Autoshotgun with all mods vs horde = Lets say 20 perk points invested and 50 shotgun shells

 

Fully perked Dual junk turrets vs horde = 20 perk points +  thousands of junk ammo and a dead player

 

Fully perked dual junk turrets + unperked auto shottie vs horde = 20 perk points + thousands of junk ammo + probably still 30 or more shotgun shells

 

ATM Junk turrets drain way more resources for less payoff and relies on dipping into other builds

 

If you don't want Junk Turrets to equal a real gun, then Int . . . needs a real gun that stands on it own end game.The drone was stated to not be offense oriented, and no dev has explained what is going to balance the drone to stop it from being used by every other build who *doesn't* have to sacrifice 50% of their damage to use it like an Int build does by giving up a turret slot to use it

 

 

 

12 hours ago, Gazz said:

Do you expect "just turrets" to do all the for for you while you watch?

 

I mean, yeah basically? Or at least enough of it to where the player can contribute a bit with melee and get by. Their only real use or role is basically just as an afk type defense weapon, which a lot of players like myself love. I'm always a summoner in games, I love being able to summon an army to fight for me while I walk around looting, even though it's definitely never the best meta build, it's good when it's at least viable and stands on it's own as "functional but boring to many"

 

That's literally their only niche, clearing rooms and roaming hordes and stuff while the player mines or is off looting.

 

If that's not the intended use of them . . . then what is? There seems to be a pretty big disconnect between dev logic and player expectations here lol

 

 

[pregnable]

Have there been any advances where you guys feel like you will be able to up the default max alive zombie count to 16, or greater?

[MechanicalLens]

53 minutes ago, pregnable said:

Have there been any advances where you guys feel like you will be able to up the default max alive zombie count to 16, or greater?

 

Why not... do it yourself? The option exists you know. 😛

[pregnable]

7 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

Why not... do it yourself? The option exists you know. 😛

 

Oh, I totally do.  I play insane, nightmare, 64 zombies, horde every night and permadeath. 

 

But they balance the game around default settings, and I know they have been wanting to make the default a higher number. 

 

Was just curious if they had made any advances where they believe they will be able to up the default number. 

 

After playing 64 for a while now, I think players would really enjoy 16+ zombies.  Somewhere between 16 and 32 seems about right. 

[MechanicalLens]

1 minute ago, pregnable said:

 

Oh, I totally do.  I play insane, nightmare, 64 zombies, horde every night and permadeath. 

 

But they balance the game around default settings, and I know they have been wanting to make the default a higher number. 

 

Was just curious if they had made any advances where they believe they will be able to up the default number. 

 

After playing 64 for a while now, I think players would really enjoy 16+ zombies.  Somewhere between 16 and 32 seems about right. 

 

What you have to realize is that TFP have to cater around the lowest common denominator, whatever that might be; either 2GB or 4GB computers I reckon. 8 zombies alive is probably optimal for those lower end computers. You also have to consider that a new player might find even 8 zombies max alive to be a difficult proposition to defeat every 7 days.

[pregnable]

5 minutes ago, MechanicalLens said:

 

What you have to realize is that TFP have to cater around the lowest common denominator, whatever that might be; either 2GB or 4GB computers I reckon. 8 zombies alive is probably optimal for those lower end computers. You also have to consider that a new player might find even 8 zombies max alive to be a difficult proposition to defeat every 7 days.

 

Yeah, although I am pretty sure they have said before they would like to get the number higher than 8. 

 

If it were 16, then they would balance it around 16, so it would be easier for new players anyway. 

 

16+ has a bit of a better horde feel though.  It is whatever the game engine and technology will allow though.  Maybe that will be a surprise for A20?

[Crater Creator]

56 minutes ago, pregnable said:

Have there been any advances where you guys feel like you will be able to up the default max alive zombie count to 16, or greater?

 

It’s the 64 zombie maximum that’s dictated by performance, more than the default max alive setting.  And that’s a hard limit, even if max alive x number of players is more than 64.

 

Outside of horde night, if the ‘budget’ for number of zombies at once does improve, I think the prevailing preference among players is to have more zombies out and about via the biome spawners.

[Blake_]

Good day to you @faatal ! I have a couple of questions that might be of interest.

 

1-What are you working on at the moment ?

 

2- Any plans on revisiting trees at some point ?

 

Spoiler

I noticed that there are art/performance inconsistencies on some trees ( grown mapple less performant than the others  , some high branches don't match art and shadows of pine trees are floating and displaced in some growing stages at lowest shadow settings [near]). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[MechanicalLens]

The new Trader Joel is looking great.

 

 

 

[Adam the Waster]

Can't wait to trade all my rocks from my mine to this sexy beast

[TellesGeek]

1 hour ago, Adam the Waster said:

Can't wait to trade all my rocks from my mine to this sexy beast

My dream is to have a character creation like this