Only 2 ways about it

[skullpoker]

Currently, there are 2 viable builds.

 

1. Perception> Lucky Looter & Lock Picking

2. Intellect > Better Barter

 

Other skills are either incidental or entirely necessary. No crafting of weapons or armor is meaningful since neither will ever result in QL 6. The radical overabundance of cold or hot environments means that Well Insulated can not be skipped, slowing down all other advancement, or negating extreme environments in favor of progression. Leaving out extreme environments destroys 2/3rds of the game. And I find myself (PC player) sorely missing the console version of the game.

 

I sincerely hope you make the next release more enjoyable than Alpha 18. Otherwise, please give us the console version as x.01

[Worrun]

In the Alpha 19 dev diary, they have noted that a lot of skills are a waste of time, and will be combining multiple skills with one another, removing and reducing a lot of skills, and reducing most of them to 3/3 instead of 5/5, but squashing all the 'bonuses' in to those levels still

[meganoth]

So you can't win if you don't have a Q6 weapon? And you need Well Insulated because otherwise you would need to drink some more water!!!? Maybe you didn't notice the rather minimal consequences heat or cold has in the game.

 

 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

Odd, my tanky/punchy machine gunner build does just fine. hrmmm..

 

Swapping helmets with either cowboy hat or the skullcap mods with either extra warm/cooling as well as duster/puffer swap

works well.

 

I may get a a bit chilly or warm, but nothing extreme.

 

(I do take LL/BB late game, but early/mid? nope. never in lockpick)

motherload/miner yes, 4pts rather fast.

 

 

[Boidster]

[Doggeh]

Whats with all the posts about there being only this way or that way to play... and I'm there thinking 'nope, never put a point in to that'... (here and the dev diary)

 

Well insulated? Nope. Never heard of a wardrobe... dress for the occasion. Duster, cowboy hat mod, cooling mod for desert. Puffer, skull cap mod, insulated mod for snow... or smoothies.

 

BB? Generally I do but I also go int as I like to craft stuff, but its not necessary at all. I never find myself buying much from the trader (save end game where I'm swimming in dukes like McDuck), and the bonus for selling isn't game breaking (there are other ways to get better prices too).

 

But then again I find myself heavily into the Agi tree which everyone says is trash/not viable etc. Maybe I'm just bad and should uninstall the game?

[topheron]

'Wolverine' build here.

 

Fortitude Brawler PainTolerance HealingFactor, glad edyonline showed me the way.  Fun build, very viable.

 

Currently playing Wasteland-Only map at Warrior difficulty.  Great fun!

 

I agree that the extreme environments are a pain, but mostly because they make me want to put points into Iron Gut/Well Insulated early due to spending so much time worrying about food.

 

(shrugs)  It's part of the challenge.

 

[Liesel Weppen]

Woever the current skill system doesn't require anything, ist just @%$*#!ing bull@%$*#!, because with your specific skill tree you enquire one single weapon.

Be a builder, only shotgun, want to go for agility, theres only pistols. want to got for perception theres only sniper. Doh.

Weapon skills should be independet of any other skills. You shouldn't be forced to skill for shotgun if you your primary is to build. NOR THE OTHER WAY ROUND. That is pure highly dosed BULL@%$*#!.

I told already hunrets of times...

 

The A18 skill skillsystem ist almost the worst skill system i ever saw. Doesn't make the game unplayable fore sure, but it's still just @%$*#!ing bull@%$*#!. From A15 up i never saw such a fail decission. I can't even put into words. Whoever declared that skill system should be put on the wall and just be shot. Sorry if it sounds harsh, but tha A18 skill tree should be punished. It should go into lexika as an example for utterly worst game design.

[Roland]

How is it then that I am still using any weapon I want in the game in addition to the one I’m perked into and still mowing down zombies? You make it sound like the ONLY gun you can use as a builder is a shotgun.  I sure hope you’ve at least tried firing some of the other weapons to make sure you can...

[Jugginator]

Not going to lie, I rarely take more than 1 point into LL,  I've never ever put a point into well insulated, and only very seldomly when I want to do the pure trader thing do I put any points into better barter. I've never put a point into lock picking aside from one time when I wanted to try that out... didn't need it much really. I did fine.

 

As a usually solo, I do find mining is the one vital thing. But, I don't need it until the transition between mid and end game, since POI stuff nets all the cobblestone and cement I need. But, all I can say is you'll prob think differently in A19. And be a bit more open minded. Maybe you're too used to the console version? Other things work just fine, try them out

[FileMachete]

On 6/12/2020 at 6:53 PM, Liesel Weppen said:

Be a builder, only shotgun, want to go for agility, theres only pistols. want to got for perception theres only sniper.

This I get & personally feel there could be a number of better ways that would expand player perk templates for more variety.

 

As I only play solo, and like to build, there are a number of perks that I always wind up buying.

And those heavily influence my toon from early to late mid-game.

 

Certainly I could choose not to buy mining perks. And I'd give it a try if the Auger wasn't behind such an expensive gate, or were more readily available in either loot or traders. My current playthrough I did manage to buy one from a trader before day 21. But that's the first one I recall seeing for sale in quite a while. Plus I'm guessing I only saw it due to buying a couple lvls in BB far earlier than I normally would since there was a motorcycle for sale and I was trying to afford it.

 

Yet were that to change, then there would be significant pressure to buy the Intel Chem perk that allows for much cheaper gas crafting.

 

Another way to consider things is to look at a build focused on the Strength & Fortitude trees.

Shotguns ---- Brawler

Clubs -------- Machine Gunner: AKs unlock at Lvl-1, so can skill up & benefit using AK till u get M60, and they use same ammo

Sledges ----- Hvy Armor

SexTrex ----- Pain Tolerance

M-Chef ----- Healing factor

Miner69er -- Rule 1 Cardio

Motherlode

 

For tank type builds most of the goodies they'd be after are in these two trees.

 

But what if you want to be a fast sledge using light tank? Light Armor is under Agility. Or a blade wielding heavy? Need Agility for blades.

 

I think I understand what TFPs were after with the new system, more diverse builds which would encourage taking different paths.

 

End result however seems like there are just a couple combos that have significant advantages, in the way the game currently plays.

By that I mostly mean the noticibly larger gap between the effectiveness of Archery in A17+ & any firearm than previous alphas.

 

Not certain but I think the arguement was that if Weapon Skills were stand alone, then folks would just all gravitate to the most effective weapons.

And I'm sure there's more than a bit of truth to that. But isn't that happening anyway?

Based on all the recent discussion on min-maxing won't those folks dig into the trees and figure out the 'best' build templates and always use those?

And not suggesting that TFPs cater to min-maxers, but on the flip side, if the min-maxer crew always bought Machinegunner, but it was stand-alone, and then they'd have to choose heavy or light armor, and debate whether to go Clubs or Blades or Brawler, even knowing they'd be spec'ing into the perks/tree which offered Pain Tolerance.. well wouldn't that actually result in more variety in templates?

Heck, if we assume that there are a not insignificant number of not-total-hard-core-min-maxers, that player block might decide to take a chance on their 2nd-best options, just to change things up, maybe?

 

To be fair I would say that TFPs have a tougher road to hoe than some other games have.

The template framework must support both Single & Multi player games, and Multi isn't built around a minimum sized group.

Meaning there's some sort of lower 'effectiveness' limit that the majority of combos need to be above, otherwise the torches come out :)

Not saying they absolutely couldn't, but likely wouldn't make business sense to build out a major percentage of templates that wound up heavily gimped in some area, like some other games do.

Anyway, all this from the cheap seats, pay no mind :)

[Dethar]

Some people will never get it, no matter how its explained.

 

Never put points into lock pick or insulation and eventually put few points in better barter around midgame. Also on spend extra point in only one melee weapon and guns I only spend points on second maybe midgame.

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, FileMachete said:

This I get & personally feel there could be a number of better ways that would expand player perk templates for more variety.

 

As I only play solo, and like to build, there are a number of perks that I always wind up buying.

And those heavily influence my toon from early to late mid-game.

 

Certainly I could choose not to buy mining perks. And I'd give it a try if the Auger wasn't behind such an expensive gate, or were more readily available in either loot or traders. My current playthrough I did manage to buy one from a trader before day 21. But that's the first one I recall seeing for sale in quite a while. Plus I'm guessing I only saw it due to buying a couple lvls in BB far earlier than I normally would since there was a motorcycle for sale and I was trying to afford it.

 

Yet were that to change, then there would be significant pressure to buy the Intel Chem perk that allows for much cheaper gas crafting.

 

Another way to consider things is to look at a build focused on the Strength & Fortitude trees.

Shotguns ---- Brawler

Clubs -------- Machine Gunner: AKs unlock at Lvl-1, so can skill up & benefit using AK till u get M60, and they use same ammo

Sledges ----- Hvy Armor

SexTrex ----- Pain Tolerance

M-Chef ----- Healing factor

Miner69er -- Rule 1 Cardio

Motherlode

 

For tank type builds most of the goodies they'd be after are in these two trees.

 

But what if you want to be a fast sledge using light tank? Light Armor is under Agility. Or a blade wielding heavy? Need Agility for blades.

 

I think I understand what TFPs were after with the new system, more diverse builds which would encourage taking different paths.

 

End result however seems like there are just a couple combos that have significant advantages, in the way the game currently plays.

By that I mostly mean the noticibly larger gap between the effectiveness of Archery in A17+ & any firearm than previous alphas.

 

Not certain but I think the arguement was that if Weapon Skills were stand alone, then folks would just all gravitate to the most effective weapons.

And I'm sure there's more than a bit of truth to that. But isn't that happening anyway?

Based on all the recent discussion on min-maxing won't those folks dig into the trees and figure out the 'best' build templates and always use those?

And not suggesting that TFPs cater to min-maxers, but on the flip side, if the min-maxer crew always bought Machinegunner, but it was stand-alone, and then they'd have to choose heavy or light armor, and debate whether to go Clubs or Blades or Brawler, even knowing they'd be spec'ing into the perks/tree which offered Pain Tolerance.. well wouldn't that actually result in more variety in templates?

Heck, if we assume that there are a not insignificant number of not-total-hard-core-min-maxers, that player block might decide to take a chance on their 2nd-best options, just to change things up, maybe?

 

To be fair I would say that TFPs have a tougher road to hoe than some other games have.

The template framework must support both Single & Multi player games, and Multi isn't built around a minimum sized group.

Meaning there's some sort of lower 'effectiveness' limit that the majority of combos need to be above, otherwise the torches come out

Not saying they absolutely couldn't, but likely wouldn't make business sense to build out a major percentage of templates that wound up heavily gimped in some area, like some other games do.

Anyway, all this from the cheap seats, pay no mind

I think for the not-total-harcore-min-maxers nothing helps but balance, and trivially everyone wants that. At the moment balance is done by MM playing some builds and the result is somewhat tainted by his own subjective likes and his available time. But with telemetry working in A19 there is new data available. And even if it provides some false data too (I bet ALL new players misjudge the importance of lucky looter) it will show that perks like miner69 are taken by almost everyone.

 

And like LuckyLooter shows, you can balance any perk from must-have to nice-to-have. If 50% more damage to blocks for miner69 is overpowered, add 25% to base damage (or tools) and the perk adds only 25%. Still not enough? Repeat. Auger would also be a good way to devalue miner69, its block damage would need to be based on a different perk (one in INT probably).

 

Agility is surely one if not the weakest attribute tree and still is played by a lot of people (judging very unreliably by seeing lots of people on the forum saying they play AGI). It helps that it is a very well defined role, the stealthy player. Actually missing is just a bit more melee effectiveness and an actually usable magnum for horde night.

 

I disagree that real minmaxers would, in case weapons were unlocked from other skills, then make different choices for example with armor. They would find one of them better and always choose that. And because of that you could use their input to balance your game. But you should not design the game for them. In the case of 7D2D you would just make anyone play the minmaxer game.

 

 

[FileMachete]

You make some good points as always @meganoth :)

In the end my strong bias is towards a more open system. More buffet than, "the chef has prepared for you tonight..." <lol picturing MM in a chef hat>

 

So while I can see the rationale for certain things in vertical trees; like crafting stations progression tied together with chemistry improvements.

I have a harder time not feeling constrained when there isn't 'true' freedom to choose which melee weapon you'd like to use.

 

Then there's the obvious bit that to fit pretty much everyones preconceptions, the M60 is king of the hill. It'd take mechanics that 7dtd doesn't have, and some have been clearly stated as never going to be added, before anything else would be a real contender for the crown. So in all likelyhood it will remain king. Which personally I'm fine with.

 

Or Heavy vs. Light Armor. Possibly some sort of "Dodge!" perk could be added to Light to make it more competitive vs. Heavy, but the mechanic that could really mix up melee in general is something TFPs have been very quiet about for a long time: Shields.

 

But I'd also like to see a limited, rational, return of Little Blue Dresses too

[canadianbluebeer]

Odd as it sounds, it sorta, kinda makes sense.

 

Machine guns. You'd think military armor right? (light)  um...

Fort and Str?  hmmm   heavy armor?

machine guns, shotguns, clubs,  knuckes and puff the magic dragon, ok.

cart the bigger f'n guns,  wear the tank armor and ... ok.

 

rifles, pistols, bows,  sneaky ninja sniper assassin types,   yes, light armor.

one shot or you messed up...  finesse, now graahhhh! POW! BAM! BIFF! 

 

aside from the combat related stuff, most of the other is a grab however you want.

I never take the mech perk early, UNLESS I don't find a usable forge by day 4.

(has happend, rng said bad things)

 

mining, cookery, smelty, riding whatever.  Pick what you like.

 

I'm partial to Little Red Dresses. 😛

 

er, I can add a weapon that will top the M60 easy.

Y'all want a belt fed shotgun? Power of a 155mm cannon. (6" to the imperialistic types)

easy.

 

(just added the howitzer power to my server yesterday, adding auto, big magazine, easy)

(for an a18 finale, I want instagibs, or ragdolls. losta them actually)

 

 

[FileMachete]

"hmm... I see your Berserker..." "I'll raise you some heavy artillery." Ding! Ding! <lol>

 

Which sounds like a lot of fun @canadianbluebeer

 

Just a thought for MP folks. Something like the vietnam era 'gun trucks' where they might have a quad .50 cal in the back.

 

Stumbled on this pretty darn cool 4 min vid about how vietnam vet helped out trucker troops in Iraq who were jury rigging their own gun trucks due to convoy ambushes.  https://youtu.be/6QquqpqWNeo

 

Something TFPs might be able to add would be mortars...

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, FileMachete said:

You make some good points as always @meganoth

In the end my strong bias is towards a more open system. More buffet than, "the chef has prepared for you tonight..." <lol picturing MM in a chef hat>

 

So while I can see the rationale for certain things in vertical trees; like crafting stations progression tied together with chemistry improvements.

I have a harder time not feeling constrained when there isn't 'true' freedom to choose which melee weapon you'd like to use.

 

Then there's the obvious bit that to fit pretty much everyones preconceptions, the M60 is king of the hill. It'd take mechanics that 7dtd doesn't have, and some have been clearly stated as never going to be added, before anything else would be a real contender for the crown. So in all likelyhood it will remain king. Which personally I'm fine with.

 

Or Heavy vs. Light Armor. Possibly some sort of "Dodge!" perk could be added to Light to make it more competitive vs. Heavy, but the mechanic that could really mix up melee in general is something TFPs have been very quiet about for a long time: Shields.

 

But I'd also like to see a limited, rational, return of Little Blue Dresses too

One advantage of the restricted classes can be that TFP does not need to design all disadvantages into the M60 to make it equal to all the other weapons, they can design some disadvantages into the class. Like having less desireable perks mixed in, lesser bonuses to the attribute itself. Not that they did anything like that yet, but it is possible.

 

 

 

[canadianbluebeer]

portable shredder works fine. now to seriously up the magazine size.

(still takes a couple hits on the late stage zeds,  like demos, but, vultures get blasted into oblivion)

ragdoll is hilarious still.

 

[skullpoker]

Go heavy into Lucky Looter. You will find yourself in a gyrocopter before day 7. You will have every weapon other than the m-60 and pump shotgun. But before you get a minibike or better, running across a desert with no stamina because the game is bad, you will figure out that you need Well Insulated, even with a leather duster or poncho. Needing to put extra insulation in along with the perk, replacing other items, is poor design. The much better option for fun and game flow would be to make the map 50-60% forest, pushing back the need for Well Insulated until you have a viable build in place.

Feel free to disagree, if you enjoy being wrong. ❤️

[Darthjake]

5 hours ago, skullpoker said:

Go heavy into Lucky Looter. You will find yourself in a gyrocopter before day 7. You will have every weapon other than the m-60 and pump shotgun. But before you get a minibike or better, running across a desert with no stamina because the game is bad, you will figure out that you need Well Insulated, even with a leather duster or poncho. Needing to put extra insulation in along with the perk, replacing other items, is poor design. The much better option for fun and game flow would be to make the map 50-60% forest, pushing back the need for Well Insulated until you have a viable build in place.

Feel free to disagree, if you enjoy being wrong. ❤️

Lucky Looter is almost always my first pick for skills, unless I've been unlucky and then it's health regen

 

But I'll always keep a set of goggles on me and wear  those when I'm out scavenging.

[xiiMaRcLeoN]

I spend it on what I would love to have in that playthrough currently. Dont make some choices because other people say so. Explore it for yourself.

Dont understand this "this is the only viable build".