Decline in 7 Days Twitch Streamers

[Cirion]

That's fine. Again I have absolutely no issue with opinions. Heck I even don't necessarily have issues with the dev's ultimately going in a direction I don't personally want, as long as I can mod the game to mostly suit my needs (and for the most part I can).

 

Sorry, call it a character flaw, but I can't help pointing out intellectual dishonesty though. It's how I am, it's my biggest pet peeve in life. In regards to A17 system with introduction of level gating and attribute gating supposedly "increasing" freedom though. I am not necessarily expecting that to change to suit what I want, I just get frustrated when the claim is made that this system increases freedom when in fact, it does not. That's all I'm saying. This is objective. Not opinion. What is opinion is whether the current system or an idea I proposed is preferable. That's the difference between opinion and reality. After all believe it or not some people don't like freedom. I could get into a long philosophical discussion about governments and how a lot of governments tend to lean in the direction of less freedom, not more... but that's a discussion for another day and another forum. So yes, people will sometimes choose less freedom and not more. That's not necessarily wrong or right, that much is indeed an opinion. I just so happen to have the opinion that more freedom = better. That's all.

 

EDIT just to add a clarifying point. The current system could be "arguably" more freedom than the LBD system in A16... possibly. That much is somewhat a matter of opinion, I admit. What I was trying to say, though, is that the current system has way less freedom than it could have, without the attribute and level gating and re-doing the A16 system such that you use player exp for learning everything instead of LBD, and without level or attribute gating which, again, by definition, is more freedom.

 

Anyway, I've said my piece, so I'll probably end up just removing the level and attribute gates myself in a mod if necessary. That's cool. Really, it is. In a way I do appreciate that TFP is not catering to a crowd unless they see a good reason to. In fact many games have been ruined that way. I am in fact quite glad the focus is PvE and coop. So many PvE games have been ruined by the PvP crowd being loud about wanting to have their way with it. Personally I have never understood this. PvP games are a dime a dozen, but very high quality co-op survival games are a rarity. So please don't misunderstand me. But it's my character flaw just getting annoyed at the definition of opinion vs. fact that gets me riled up. So, perhaps I'll just shut up now lol because at this point, we're getting into almost philosophical debates rather than meaningful content debates. (This is why I rarely engage in political discussion with people that don't understand facts LOL because it just ends up to be a pointless heated discussion)

[Roland]

It's not that there's no acknowledgement of that. It's that every time someone complains it's always the same "yes but some people like the new perk system" from a certain moderator.

 

That’s called giving a moderate counterpoint to a highly extreme point of view. What is more likely? That everyone hates the new system or that some hate it but some like it? You don’t get to come here and spew unchallenged toxic rants without a reminder that the universe isn’t you and your preferences. You are correct in one thing. I let people state their grievances. I don’t muzzle or ban them for that. But I do offer alternative viewpoints for thought with an attitude of taking the ups and downs of development in stride. It does make for an effective counterpoint to your rage screaming thank you very much.

 

They won't acknowledge that this perk system is hot garbage because certain people on the dev team like it. It scratches that fallout itch for them. Nevermind the fact that even Fallout fans think it's too damn simplified in the newer Fallout games.

 

It's a recipe for mediocrity.

 

See? Extreme, insulting, narrow minded speculation based on an inability to fathom that anyone else on earth could have a different set of fun senses than you. Assuming they “know” it’s “garbage” but are doing it anyway. Please....

 

Devs have been compromising and adding great options to give players faster progression, less grinding, etc. They compromised and made stamina quite a bit easier to manage. But, for you it’s “my way or the highway”.

 

Extreme.

 

There’s the highway, sir.

[Feycat]

Disheartening to see there is no acknowledgement of the fact that a lot of players don't like the current perk system and there doesn't seem to be any plans to change them at all at this point or to at least see if the current system could be made better (not necessarily reversion to A16).

 

They've already said that nothing is in its final form.

 

Disheartening that so many people keep complaining about the system and insisting it needs to be changed back when plenty of us like it as-is.

 

The views dropped because the alpha isn't new anymore. This happens every alpha. It's not specific to this one.

 

Kickz was playing modded fairly early into A16, and no one's holding him up as an example that no one liked A16, for instance.

[Roland]

Sorry, call it a character flaw, but I can't help pointing out intellectual dishonesty though.

 

I hate it when people claim virtues as character flaws. It’s the oldest trick in the book during job interviews when asked to share a character flaw. Lol.

 

It's how I am, it's my biggest pet peeve in life. In regards to A17 system with introduction of level gating and attribute gating supposedly "increasing" freedom though. I am not necessarily expecting that to change to suit what I want, I just get frustrated when the claim is made that this system increases freedom when in fact, it does not. That's all I'm saying. This is objective. Not opinion. What is opinion is whether the current system or an idea I proposed is preferable. That's the difference between opinion and reality.

 

I agree that there is less freedom from within the paradigm of playing the game efficiently to survive in the most effective way. When playing in that way there is only one combination of perks to pick and none of the others matter. In fact some are outright stupid because they invalidate others. Why have a medicine perk when you can do fortitude and natural healing and just purchase first aid as needed? It’s redundant and idiotic from the point of view of puzzling out the best path. Ghostlight often says that there is only one set of perks to buy and one best order to buy them in and everyone including streamers will always follow that formula and never deviate because it would be less effective and efficient to do so and then you wouldn’t be playing the game to the best of your ability.

 

The developers have a different paradigm and that is one of playing the game as different people with different abilities and weaknesses that create challenges. The reason there is a medicine perk and natural healing perks in separate attributes no less is so that I can play as a med student who got caught by the apocalypse this time and next time I can play as a guy who is a bit like Wolverine. The perks create different people with which to role play and experience the end of the world. In that sense there is loads of freedom and the ability to mold different characters. It has nothing to do with optimizing anything to always be stronger than the hordes. It is about having deficits in some ways and hoping your strengths will be enough. Playing dead is dead really accentuates this. The nerdy guy who is weak physically...how long will he survive? The agile track star who can’t cook at all? How will he deal with the apocalypse differently? In this paradigm the freedom is complete.

 

So I see both arguments. I understand why someone who doesn’t want to play as different builds would be disenchanted with A17. Should the devs abandon their own paradigm when creating their game? I hope not. A17 has given ME the most uniquely different plays of any previous Alpha bring me great satisfaction even as some others are admittedly playing it with the same formula and exactly the same way over and over again every time they play AND apparently not enjoying themselves while doing it.

 

But no. That can’t be true. Roland is just a yes man white knight fanboi who hasn’t really thought it through or is lying about his enjoyment because he is expected to repeat the TFP talking points...smh.

[Cirion]

I hate it when people claim virtues as character flaws. It’s the oldest trick in the book during job interviews when asked to share a character flaw. Lol.

 

 

 

I agree that there is less freedom from within the paradigm of playing the game efficiently to survive in the most effective way. When playing in that way there is only one combination of perks to pick and none of the others matter. In fact some are outright stupid because they invalidate others. Why have a medicine perk when you can do fortitude and natural healing and just purchase first aid as needed? It’s redundant and idiotic from the point of view of puzzling out the best path. Ghostlight often says that there is only one set of perks to buy and one best order to buy them in and everyone including streamers will always follow that formula and never deviate because it would be less effective and efficient to do so and then you wouldn’t be playing the game to the best of your ability.

 

The developers have a different paradigm and that is one of playing the game as different people with different abilities and weaknesses that create challenges. The reason there is a medicine perk and natural healing perks in separate attributes no less is so that I can play as a med student who got caught by the apocalypse this time and next time I can play as a guy who is a bit like Wolverine. The perks create different people with which to role play and experience the end of the world. In that sense there is loads of freedom and the ability to mold different characters. It has nothing to do with optimizing anything to always be stronger than the hordes. It is about having deficits in some ways and hoping your strengths will be enough. Playing dead is dead really accentuates this. The nerdy guy who is weak physically...how long will he survive? The agile track star who can’t cook at all? How will he deal with the apocalypse differently? In this paradigm the freedom is complete.

 

So I see both arguments. I understand why someone who doesn’t want to play as different builds would be disenchanted with A17. Should the devs abandon their own paradigm when creating their game?

 

I would say it's not so much being "efficient", but rather, the current system lends itself to people "feeling" like they need to be "efficient". Personally, if I could only ask for one small change (Rather than a full on reversion to LBD with some revisions of it), it would be keep the A17 system, but remove level and attribute gates, and perhaps adjust the skill points for perks as appropriate (They might have to bump to 2 pts per level instead of 1, to balance things out for example) as well adjust what some perks do as appropriate (specific gun skills now increase damage instead of the overarching attribute), possibly add new perks also.

 

I ABSOLUTELY agree with a lot of your points though. I just think my opinion of implementation is slightly different. I absolutely think it would be awesome to carve out a specific path. I am saying, at least for me, I'd enjoy the ability to do the following:

 

A magnum toting, miner, with a powerful knife, and parkour skills.

A light armor expert, crossbow wielding stealth ninja.

A heavy armor tank with HP regen, max HP, max stamina.

 

or even something random and stupid, just to challenge yourself

 

A great farmer that can use meds to great effect but is only good with a wrench and making bicycles.

 

(Just to point out, that you could do some silly combo that wouldn't necessarily be a smart combo lol)

 

For the most part, it is true that any of these can be accomplished in A17. The problem (imo) is that these builds can not be accomplished until late-game. Because attributes cost 23 skill points to get to level 10, depending on how many attributes the perks you want are gated behind, you need anywhere from 50-100 level ups just for the attribute skill ups, whereas the way I wanna play, I'd like to get my role-play action going much earlier like level 30 say. Maybe TFP thinks this is OP to be powerful early. But I say why not? Because your "Power" will be very pigeon holed, and you will be only good " at that one thing " and nothing else. You would not excel in ALL guns. You would have to pick ONE gun to excel in. So in that context, it seems fair. I realized this flaw in the system quick. I played with a friend and I was like hey let's decide who uses what guns. "You use shotgun and pistol, I'll use AK-47 and magnum".... "oh wait... it only costs like 5 points to get Shotgun, so I might as well get shotgun as well". This was an actual conversation I had with a friend. Hopefully that gets my point across. See in the current system, once you shell out the massive 23 points to max out a skill tree (attribute), anything under it is fair game, so if you AND a friend both happen to go for the same attribute, there is not that much distinguishing you anymore, at least under that specific attribute.

 

I PERSONALLY think (I absolutely could be wrong, but I know it would be true for me if no one else) that I would find far more enjoyment in this system, and probably find myself trying a LOT more customized builds than is possible in the current system. At least for earlier game implementation. Builds in A17 just don't feel that unique to me, and it's my opinion the fault for that lies with attribute gating. I am not even debating efficiency I am talking uniqueness here.

[Roland]

So test it out Cirion. Change the opening quest to give you 40 skill points and purchase every skill and attribute you need to be the guy you want to be. Edit out the level gates too. Give it an actual test drive and see if being Who you want to be right from the early game is preferable to building that dude up slowly.

 

I’ve been testing my theories about no xp at all and it has been eye opening.

[Cirion]

Yeah after all this discussion I am now very tempted to make my own mod that does all this for me. If I do I'll definitely post it on the modlets page. I am still somewhat of a mod newbie, so it might take me a while to write up, what I want to do may be some what of a big overhaul (for my current modlet skill levels at laest).

 

I like your idea of the no exp at all and I want to try that when that mod is complete also. I was not around back in the older alpha days but I know many people are still playing the old alphas where EXP wasn't even a thing at all, because the one guy I talked to says he enjoys being able to build his base right away and not have to grind up skills to do so.

[Gazz]

The reason why Certain People claim that the A17 skill system offers more freedom is that it objectively does.

 

In A16 you would have skill points but be stuck with them until you grind up the LBD construction or whatever skill to the required level, repeating a very specific action over and over. (opposite of freedom of choice)

 

In A17 you buy the attributes/perks you want and you would have multiple ways of progressing towards them.

A total of three crafting perks are level gated but only a single (and non-essential) one requires more than player level 100 out of 300 so that's not really punishing.

 

Despite some wild claims we know that not everyone picks the same perks. Not everyone feels the need to go deeply into intellect or any other attribute you care to name.

 

The issue with rose (or otherwise) tinted glasses is that they block certain wavelenghts of light so that you can not see as much. That's how tinted glass works.

[Cirion]

The reason why Certain People claim that the A17 skill system offers more freedom is that it objectively does.

 

In A16 you would have skill points but be stuck with them until you grind up the LBD construction or whatever skill to the required level, repeating a very specific action over and over. (opposite of freedom of choice)

 

In A17 you buy the attributes/perks you want and you would have multiple ways of progressing towards them.

A total of three crafting perks are level gated but only a single (and non-essential) one requires more than player level 100 out of 300 so that's not really punishing.

 

Just gonna leave my own quotes here and let them speak for themself.

 

Just to add a clarifying point. The current system could be "arguably" more freedom than the LBD system in A16... possibly. That much is somewhat a matter of opinion, I admit.

 

What I was trying to say, though, is that the current system has way less freedom than it could have, without the attribute and level gating and re-doing the A16 system such that you use player exp for learning everything instead of LBD, and without level or attribute gating which, again, by definition, is more freedom.

 

Already mentioned that you could make some argument for A17 being more freedom than A16 (I disagree, but I can see that point of view). What is fact is that eliminating gates WOULD introduce more freedom.

 

I dislike the attribute gating possibly even more than the level gating after I gave it further thought, since it means the difference between spending merely 20 pts vs 80-100 for a character I want to play as, as I had mentioned in my discussion with roland.

 

after some thought, if this system would be used, some skills would likely need to be balanced appropriately (IE, not all skills would be the flat 1 point per level anymore).

 

Maybe I'll make a stab at a modlet this weekend and see if it might be well received both for myself and others

[Prisma501]

Sometimes in life you dont always get what you want.

 

/endoflifelesson

 

Cheers

[Gazz]

after some thought, if this system would be used, some skills would likely need to be balanced appropriately (IE, not all skills would be the flat 1 point per level anymore).

 

Maybe I'll make a stab at a modlet this weekend and see if it might be well received both for myself and others

A more complicated system where perk costs differ is less accessible and defeats the purpose of having "a build" where your attributes give you an overall impression of what you can do.

The point economy of attributes is already pushing what "normal" players are willing to put up with. Requiring a 3D spreadsheet to plan your perks is fine for a numerophile mod.

[AtomicUs5000]

Just for the sake of pondering things...

What if there exists some skill point system that a vast majority of people playing the game enjoys?

 

Since A17e started, the perks have been discussed over and over. Some want A16's back. Some like the new. Some like the new, but still like 16's more. Arguments have passed back forth. After balancing and rebalancing, very little has changed in this regard.

 

If I say that I like the skills the way they were, and people argue with me that A17's is better, shouldn't I assume that neither is that great? Likewise for the vice versa? It is pretty clear to me that neither of these systems are/were so great. They both have strong and weak points. I'm just saying that while implementing these systems into the game is a very expensive task, just thinking about it is free. If it's so much a problem, why put so much effort in defending either when there must be something else that would be best?

[Gazz]

I have to agree that the skill system that is better than everything we have ever come up with and that everyone likes would be best.

[xXBadDreamXx]

I watched a new player stream a few weeks ago and they seemed to be getting frustrated with so many zombies in random wilderness POI's and they said " it feels like a cheap fallout ripoff". I've never played fallout so I have nothing to compare it too but I found it funny because madmole mentioned at one point that he was heading in that direction.

I always thought that 7 days had enough going for it on its own that it didn't need to be ripping off ideas from other games to make it "better".

Maybe that's what doesn't sit well with people? That it feels like copy and paste from another game but it doesn't really seem to fit the theme?

[DaVegaNL]

But no. That can’t be true. Roland is just a yes man white knight fanboi who hasn’t really thought it through or is lying about his enjoyment because he is expected to repeat the TFP talking points...smh.

 

Plus he hit rocks with a hammer when he was young! Boo!

[Gamer_62]

Alpha 16.4 was the Alpha for me..Alpha 17 is still great.

It's just A17 should of improved A16.4 but didn't,it's as if they started all over again.

Taking gun parts and rebuilding them was great.

Bike parts the same.

Wellness and all medicines worked but needed fine tuning

I didn't think much that way would change apart from zombies pathing and electric look more like Rusts, making the mixer use electric and torches burn out at some point.

Taking ideas out of other games isn't a rip off if it works...What game nowadays hasn't some part of a game you remember.

Take the best of some games and make a great game,which 7dtd is

[Kage848]

I have noticed no dropoff in YouTube videos or twitch streaming that's any different from 16.4.

 

I think we might have new streamers, or people with short memories, that didnt expect such a dropoff 3 months after a major release.

 

I have been doing this game through 2013, alpha 1, non stop coverage. This is the norm. Major release, couple months later it drops off. Nothing new here. Has very little to do with alpha 17. This is confirmation bias for sure. Some people dont like alpha 17 and see this dropoff as proof no one likes it, when it's just the norm. I would argue it probably has more to do with the garbage going on with the console version more than anything. I still get tons of comments and questions about the console version.

[RestInPieces]

What about sticking to your guns and following your vision? ..........

 

Well, in general, taking player feedback at face value is a good way to ruin any game.

[Maynard69]

Yes, I've got no issues with people complaining about some aspect or another of A17, but so many people seem to think that their complaint is what's driving everyone else!

 

I have issues with A17 too, but I don't for a second pretend or assume that they're anything other than my own personal preferences.

 

Except that it is over and over and over again the same complaint, the new perk system and lack of randomness/variety in playthroughs. You can see plenty evidence of it just by looking here and steam. No need to assume people's opinions, its right there for us to see.

[RestInPieces]

The reason why Certain People claim that the A17 skill system offers more freedom is that it objectively does.

 

Freedom is quite an abstract term - let's oversimplify things and say that players progress by doing activities and choosing different paths.

 

-A16's restriction was that it needed you to do the corresponding activity in order to progress down the path.

End result - the player had to do multiple activities.

 

-In A17, the player does not need to do multiple activities any more in order to progress towards multiple paths.

End result - the player just does the most efficient activity to choose any path.

 

That's simply why players see A17 as more linear. Activities to achieve that progression "freedom".

 

It's also the reason why I say that xp sources have to be balanced in order for A17 to not feel linear (but even that is a band-aid in the end because of other reasons). Also trust that you understand why most players are inclined to choose the most efficient path and eventually ruin their own gameplay experience, sometimes without realizing.

[Gazz]

Well, in general, taking player feedback at face value is a good way to ruin any game.

It's a useful indicator.

 

A lot of feedback is so unspecific that this is all you can take from it anyway.

Then there is the over the top detailed feedback which is specific but from maybe 3 rabid fans that are in no way representative of the player base.

It's complicated.

[Ghostlight]

Obviously, the drop is entirely due to whatever feature of 17.x you like the least. It's a clear sign that everyone agrees with your opinion and that the devs are fools to have implemented that feature and for not having reversed direction and reverted it upon seeing your displeasure.

 

 

No friend, despite your sarcasm, it's always the perk system.

 

1) Same things unlocking every time at the same level means loss of replayabiity because every run is the same in that regard.

 

2) Giving the player everything in the game reduces the drive to explore and loot - the two things that make the game interesting.

 

These 2 drawbacks together are the perfect storm for ruining a survival game experience and making the game bland. How can either of the above be taken positively?

[Ghostlight]

It's not that there's no acknowledgement of that. It's that every time someone complains it's always the same "yes but some people like the new perk system" from a certain moderator..

 

Some people do like it...true. But let's think about them for a minute...

 

It's obvious that casual players will prefer it because it takes less effort to get everything. No need to explore when you can unlock almost every item and craft it at top tier etc. So, check in that regard.

 

However I will stick my neck out further and state that a lot of the people who like the new perk system are simply WRONG. They simply haven't put enough hours into A17 nor restarted enough times to fully appreciate the blandness of the new perk system and the detriment it is to the game. There, I said it.

[Gazz]

I think we might have new streamers, or people with short memories, that didnt expect such a dropoff 3 months after a major release.

 

I have been doing this game through 2013, alpha 1, non stop coverage. This is the norm. Major release, couple months later it drops off. Nothing new here. Has very little to do with alpha 17. This is confirmation bias for sure. Some people dont like alpha 17 and see this dropoff as proof no one likes it, when it's just the norm. I would argue it probably has more to do with the garbage going on with the console version more than anything. I still get tons of comments and questions about the console version.

It's a game.

 

Some people really need to say this out loud slowly.

People are eventually "through" with the content and move on.

Some people like it a lot and play it for months which is awesome... but that's not how the majority of players treats this or any game.

 

I wish I could comment on the "console situation" but even after the Telltale resolution it's a hugely complicated issue and no announcement of some plan or intention would improve anything.

 

 

They simply haven't put enough hours into A17 nor restarted enough times to fully appreciate the blandness of the new perk system and the detriment it is to the game. There, I said it.

So? That's about the amount of time that a non-die-hard fan invests in a game.

If a game entertains you for 50 hours that's above-average AAA game value. 100 hours is amazing.

[Maynard69]

The reason why Certain People claim that the A17 skill system offers more freedom is that it objectively does.

 

In A16 you would have skill points but be stuck with them until you grind up the LBD construction or whatever skill to the required level, repeating a very specific action over and over. (opposite of freedom of choice)

 

In A17 you buy the attributes/perks you want and you would have multiple ways of progressing towards them.

A total of three crafting perks are level gated but only a single (and non-essential) one requires more than player level 100 out of 300 so that's not really punishing.

 

Despite some wild claims we know that not everyone picks the same perks. Not everyone feels the need to go deeply into intellect or any other attribute you care to name.

 

The issue with rose (or otherwise) tinted glasses is that they block certain wavelenghts of light so that you can not see as much. That's how tinted glass works.

 

Ya, with LBD, when you think to yourself "Hmm, If I go mining right now, I will get mats, xp, and skillups!" Gives you a feeling of accomplishment.

 

Are we more free now? sure but it doesnt "feel" as good. I used to be able to play this game non-stop chasing a skilled up character and RNG drops. With the new system I am always finding myself just logging off randomly thinking "Meh, this isnt as fun as it once was"

 

Sure we can move up quicker in one specific area but we cant go out and non-stop do different things to reach our goals, our goal is always the same thing, more xp for more unlocks. It gets tedious, and lacks what was amazingly addicting and replayable about this game in the past.