Gamestage balancing may need to be looked at

[Jugginator]

Yep all of that lol. And I'm fine with rads being bullet sponges, they are after all, supposed to be the boss-zombies. But if they're going to remain common after day 14, reduce their HP. I love, crave, and get bored without brutal challenges, but this is just tedious and annoying. And being a common enemy kinda defeats the "boss" title.

[Jackelmyer]

Insane difficulty day 40 2 hour days and I'm level 62. I melee for my main attack and have no issues with greens except spider and military who I use my shotgun or pistol to take them down. If the game is to tough for you at the difficulty your playing lower the difficulty. If your on the lowest difficutly then you need to head to the mod section to solve your problem.

 

At this point, all of you people staying this kind of thing I seriously seriously don't believe. I'm more inclined to think you guys have tweaked your game files or pulled gear out of creative. The game stage progression is just stupid now.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

I'm right with the OP. Totally agree.

[Roland]

This herein lies the problem, for anyone willing to notice it.

 

What level were you when gamestage was 120? Maybe 40?

 

Max level is 300, you were 40 ish (guessing)

 

Green zombies are the END GAME zombies of this game They should not pop up when you've only achieved 15-20% of max level in the game. If level 100 was the max in this game, THEN seeing your first green at level 40 MIGHT make sense... but not with 300 being the max.

 

I don't care if you play BARBIE mode or if you play INSANE mode. It makes no difference. Difficulty IS NOT RELEVANT HERE. green zombies by level 40 / gamestage 120 is imbalanced no matter how you look at it

 

I’m not disagreeing with you that the balance does need some work but you are posting from a false premise.

 

The only reason 300 is the max is because TFP gave in to completionists who wanted to be able to get everything maxed given enough time. I would say that if you don’t feel compelled to max out then the true end is around level 150 which is enough to make you king of the world.

 

So 40/150 is probably still a little soon but I can tell you it will never be */300 because that is not considered the end. It is considered several hundred miles past end credits rolling.

[Ghostlight]

meh . I personally feel that looting shouldn't use as much resources as an average horde night .,

 

Well it doesn't. Nowhere near. I cited 500 Shotgun shells to clear a tier 5 POI. Horde night is many times more than that (at GS 500). I'd guess 10 times more? Thing is I use the AK and SMG for horde night so it is hard to compare. Probably 1500 each of 7mm and 9mm, and another 2000 9mm in my turrets.

[Ghostlight]

This! I want 20-30 zombies in a larger POI to challenge me, all ferals maybe a couple of rads in the "loot room" of the building -- not 20-30 rads lol.

 

No offence but I need all those rads to have even a little challenge. 30 zombies that are not rads would be absolutely nothing.

 

I say again to anyone who is having an issue, TURN THE DIFFICULTY DOWN, and don't spoil the game for the rest of us with more nerfs. Unless you are playing on the lowest difficulty and cannot handle that, you have no complaint whatsoever. There is a setting for you. Use it. Sheesh.

 

I played a solo game on Easy to try it and by the time rads came I could one shot them with a Shotgun. So there is absolutely no problem. Play on easy if you dislike it.

[Ghostlight]

The only reason 300 is the max is because TFP gave in to completionists who wanted to be able to get everything maxed given enough time. I would say that if you don’t feel compelled to max out then the true end is around level 150 which is enough to make you king of the world.

 

Surely gamestage 600 is the true end? And you will need level 300 to get there, right? Or will this be A16 all over again and people claim they are king of the world when their gamestage is only halfway to max?

[Ghostlight]

What level were you when gamestage was 120? Maybe 40?

 

Max level is 300, you were 40 ish (guessing)

 

Green zombies are the END GAME zombies of this game They should not pop up when you've only achieved 15-20% of max level in the game.

 

Yes, they should and must. Any player who is not speccing Int will easily handle them. Solo players, tough luck, I sympathise.

[Aldranon]

Without any plot, the "End Game" is when the player stops playing (for whatever reason) or the dev stops the game (which would be bad for an open world).

As most of us have their own ideas what an end looks like in A17: From "This sucks, can't finish Day 1 even" to "Dang, Day 3000 already??"

 

SO, with that in mind, just get a "Factorio" style of massive option choices and "Pre-defined Option Sets" in place and let people do their thing, whatever that is.

 

 

Also a rich and dynamic plot mechanic (modable) would be perfect for Navazgane (too much to ask in random I would guess?). So an "End Game" could be a valid topic.

[Ghostlight]

SO, with that in mind, just get a "Factorio" style of massive option choices and "Pre-defined Option Sets" in place and let people do their thing, whatever that is.

 

Interesting idea. They could even add an option which would increase or reduce the number rads players will meet, which would solve this whole issue outright. They could call it "Difficulty" or something. Just an idea. :/

[Jugginator]

No offence but I need all those rads to have even a little challenge. 30 zombies that are not rads would be absolutely nothing.

 

I say again to anyone who is having an issue, TURN THE DIFFICULTY DOWN, and don't spoil the game for the rest of us with more nerfs. Unless you are playing on the lowest difficulty and cannot handle that, you have no complaint whatsoever. There is a setting for you. Use it. Sheesh.

 

I played a solo game on Easy to try it and by the time rads came I could one shot them with a Shotgun. So there is absolutely no problem. Play on easy if you dislike it.

 

Again, since apparently some are ignoring this over and over, I don't want nerfing of difficulty. I literally said I crave and need a challenge to keep playing a game. I said those 30 zombies should be TAILORED to your gamestage. I said to increase their damage and HP based on difficulty + gamestage. So, just under rad-stats. I said rads should be at the loot-rooms/ends of POIs, not everywhere since they are boss-type zombies.

 

I guess you'll ignore this anyway and just say I need to turn the difficulty down. Sheesh. Normal zombies are a joke on survivalist, so they should be buffed and rad zombie sleepers return to their rare-boss state. Not littered everywhere.

[Gazz]

I said to increase their damage and HP based on difficulty + gamestage.

...

I guess you'll ignore this anyway and just say I need to turn the difficulty down. Sheesh.

That's because this is the worst kind of level scaling.

 

Enemies that stay exactly the same... except they get more damage/HP as your level increases.

 

If (some) players hadn't lost their ♥♥♥♥s over HP bars we would have a lot more options to scale enemies.

Could be a different name signifying an increased stat or icons depicting extra abilities.

[Maynard69]

That's because this is the worst kind of level scaling.

 

Enemies that stay exactly the same... except they get more damage/HP as your level increases.

 

If (some) players hadn't lost their ♥♥♥♥s over HP bars we would have a lot more options to scale enemies.

Could be a different name signifying an increased stat or icons depicting extra abilities.

 

Couldnt you guys have just responded to those players and told them this. And then told them to get the hell over it and put it in anyway? Given them an option to turn it off, like turning off the hud if it hurts their pretending games are real life so much. (Since I'm sure immersion was their big complaint)

 

Zombie "Boxer" Joe- 2x attack speed, chance for double strike type thing seems like a missed opportunity. I mean really it could still be done, there would just be no info available to the player on what attributes the Z's they are facing have. Ya, I guess that wouldnt work, idk.

[Ghostlight]

Again, since apparently some are ignoring this over and over, I don't want nerfing of difficulty. I literally said I crave and need a challenge to keep playing a game. I said those 30 zombies should be TAILORED to your gamestage. I said to increase their damage and HP based on difficulty + gamestage. So, just under rad-stats. I said rads should be at the loot-rooms/ends of POIs, not everywhere since they are boss-type zombies.

 

I guess you'll ignore this anyway and just say I need to turn the difficulty down. Sheesh. Normal zombies are a joke on survivalist, so they should be buffed and rad zombie sleepers return to their rare-boss state. Not littered everywhere.

 

Why? You say you want challenge. A huge group of Irradiated is the only thing close to challenge. Grunts with more damage and HP would still be as laughable as they are, just more tedious. And what do you mean by Ferals with just below Rad HP? You mean the effective HP a Rad has including the regen? Or do you mean just the same amount-ish without counting the regen? If it's the former, what would the difference be between the two types? If it is the latter, those Ferals would still be laughable just more tedious.

 

You say you don't want a nerf, but your suggestion sure sounds like one.

 

As far as tailoring the zombies on gs goes, the type of irradiated you face does vary on GS. I am now getting a ton of Spiders where I didn't before, and they are absolutely nasty compared to all other Rads, including Cops - especially in numbers and inside tight POIs. They bounce all over the place making it hard to do sustained damage to overcome their regen, and they automatically inflict a sprained or broken leg if they hit you even once.

 

Look I am not trying to blow my own trumpet but if you replace those huge groups of Rads with buffed Grunts or Ferals, it would be zero challenge to me. It is already not much of a challenge, other than the sheer time it takes to clear a tier 5, which I do find annoying and impractical.

 

If anything, I would campaign for gamestage to rise MUCH faster than it does.

[BobTheBard]

You're misunderstanding the issue here Ghostlight. The issue is not one of difficulty. The issue is one of resource management. The problem with huge swarms of rad-zombies isn't that they're hard, because they're not. The issue is that fighting huge numbers of rad-zombies in every structure makes scavenging resource-inefficient. Essentially, because of all the rad-zombies in every POI scavenging turns a net loss unless you play one of two ways. This kills a lot of the late-game variety because the majority of build paths can't keep up with the resource drain that all the rad-zombies represent and puts you in the odd situation where unless you play in a very specific way gathering resources will actually leave you with fewer resources than you started with.

 

And Gazz, unfortunately part of the issue is that the situation you don't want is the issue you currently have, 'tougher' zombies (ferals, rads) are just zombies that do more damage and have more health. I don't feel any more threatened by a rad-zombie on Day 50 than I do by a regular zombie on Day 1, it just takes me more shots to put it down. Spider zombies and cops are more interesting. Personally I'd be happy to sacrifice 'realism' for more interesting gameplay, since 7 Days is trying to be a game to be enjoyed rather than a realistic simulator of post-apocalyptic survival.

[Ghostlight]

You're misunderstanding the issue here Ghostlight. The issue is not one of difficulty. The issue is one of resource management

 

Pretty sure it isn't.

 

The ammo you spend to enter a POI is the cost to loot it and finish a quest. I find that acceptable. Yes the loot may end up not worth it, but that is another thread entirely. You are not going in there to loot ammo or to come out with a net ammo gain, that's what mining is for.

 

And many times it is worth it (5 points in Daring Adventurer is a must). We got the vast majority of our rarer and more powerful mods this way. You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket. The ticket costs 500 Shotgun rounds per tier 5 POI. You can opt to play or not.

 

And you could always melee them if ammo is a concern. I only use guns because I enjoy using guns.

 

Finallly, as the group's miner, I find that 2 whole days mining in every 7 gives us enough ammo for horde night and looting all the POIs we want in between. If our ammo is dwindling, then for that week we will mine more than loot. Shrug. The balance seems fine to me.

[BobTheBard]

Pretty sure it isn't.

 

 

You know, for that huge blob of text you put forth, you missed one very fundamental thing. What if people aren't doing a level 5 trader quest?

[Ghostlight]

You know, for that huge blob of text you put forth, you missed one very fundamental thing. What if people aren't doing a level 5 trader quest?

 

Firstly why go into a tier 5 POI then? Scavenge in smaller, easier buildings. Common sense?

 

Second, tier 5's typically have 2 to 3 loot rooms and many of them are much bigger than those in smaller POIs, so even without a quest they can be worth it.

 

Third, TONS of XP.

 

And finally, where I am there is absolutely nothing else to do in the game except tier 5 quests. We have everything; this is our artificial end-game. Most players will end up doing the same. It's actually fun - as long as you accept that the reward will be crap and it costs 500 shells to find out.

 

Tier 5 POIs are a major under-taking. Not to be taken lightly, and certainly not to be entered for scavenging purposes. This is the end game. Prepare for it like you would horde night. Think of it like your guild's raiding nights in WoW. I relish the prospect of taking on many hundreds of Irradiated!

[BobTheBard]

Ah. I see a key concept in your posts now that I didn't before, one thing that makes all the difference.

 

We. Group. Guild.

 

You're assuming everyone plays this game with a group. Many people don't. And the fewer people you have the more of a problem this is simply because you can't just send someone off to the mines and spend all day making bullets for you while you do other things. The 7 day timer keeps moving at the same rate regardless of how many people are in the game, and the gamestage doesn't much care how many people are around when it spawns things. So now imagine fighting those 75 rad-zombies by yourself, with no friends, with nobody backing you up, and knowing you're going to have to replace all of those bullets yourself before the next blood moon requires you to use even more of them. And then do it all with half the skills you have now, because as a single player you can't afford to specialize like you can when you're with a group. Maybe then you can get to see how this might become a problem for a lot of people.

[RestInPieces]

That's because this is the worst kind of level scaling.

 

Enemies that stay exactly the same... except they get more damage/HP as your level increases.

 

If (some) players hadn't lost their ♥♥♥♥s over HP bars we would have a lot more options to scale enemies.

Could be a different name signifying an increased stat or icons depicting extra abilities.

 

Doesn't the game already use the worst kind of level scaling?

 

...were you seriously thinking of putting monster affixes/icons in the ui?

And why would you need these or hp bars to "scale" them in various ways and not just use (non-cartoony) visual indicators instead?

[Guppycur]

Seems very much like a "I'm going to take my ball and go home" post gazz...

 

Level areas, where you would expect them to be. Problem solved.

 

Or hell, just use sheer numbers... Keep them spawning, like you do the blood moon.

 

Performance issues you say?

 

Trigger area activates the spawns, say, 50' from a door, and the spawns happen on the other side of the door... They all pour out.

 

Once you cross the door, the spawn moves to the other side of a different, unexplored door... And so on.

 

Spawns always happen out of sight. Yes, you'd need painted/shaped trigger areas.

 

You guys are smart, you could figure it out.

 

Numbers, not sponges.

[fragtzack]

Agree with guppy. ++numbers of zombies spawning and not ++hp zombies.

 

If you are inside the POI, make them spawn right outside long as out of sight from the player. Be awesome if some new zombies appear that come through the entrance you used to enter the POI. Would make for a lot of oh crap moments.

[Jedo]

If you are inside the POI, make them spawn right outside long as out of sight from the player. Be awesome if some new zombies appear that come through the entrance you used to enter the POI. Would make for a lot of oh crap moments.

 

That already happens to me...a lot.

[Tin]

That's because this is the worst kind of level scaling.

 

Enemies that stay exactly the same... except they get more damage/HP as your level increases.

 

If (some) players hadn't lost their ♥♥♥♥s over HP bars we would have a lot more options to scale enemies.

Could be a different name signifying an increased stat or icons depicting extra abilities.

 

How did 'Not' having HP bars for zeds stop this from happening? Why couldn't you keep them 'only' as a dev tools to help scale the changes? Why would they need to be displayed as a bar? Couldn't you also use audio cues instead to signify the change or whatnot? couldn't you use changes like their eye's getting brighter? their attacks getting faster? use a particle effect to denote the change? different animations?

Just some Ex: Zed health at 75% their eye's get brighter. Zed health at 50% <use particle effect>. Zed health at 25% their attacks start to increase. Zed health at 50% the zombie lets out a roar with accompanying animation..

[Guppycur]

Yeh, I gotta say, a "Rage Mode" when the HP gets below 50% or so, using a particle effect, is not only completely feasible, it's doable now using the buff system.

[RestInPieces]

They could do a myriad different visual indicators with little effort, for example, using the particle system, attached 2D textures or different shaders. Preferably imo more immersive and less cartoonish than glowing eyes etc. And hopefully they think of more interesting effects other than speed or regeneration.