An A17 Experimental Metaphor

[Reckis]

Is it just me or is it possible that most of Roland's reputation is just other people misinterpreting his attempt at lightening the mood/making a joke?

[ParadiseLostUK]

Is it just me or is it possible that most of Roland's reputation is just other people misinterpreting his attempt at lightening the mood/making a joke?

 

I'd say that's a very accurate analysis.

[Myrrah]

Maybe I misread his post, but I don't think you were depicted as a hater, not explicitly nor implicitly. I suppose it's up to you to interpret it that way.

 

I think he is making light of your extremely large opinions because you are stating them during an experimental build, not even a stable release, i.e. a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe some of the latest build decisions are not to your liking, or previous ones. But the fact remains that it's still experimental and being tweaked and changed daily, so making a big post about how very saddened and disappointed you are of how it's all going to hell is overreacting. Proof of it is how you've already made long posts criticizing a change and then other posts praising them for changing it for the better during this same experimental.

 

Save all those words for when it's stable if you're still disappointed, and in the meantime, focus your energy into doing specific, concise criticisms or suggestions of individual changes to help them out, because so far I haven't seen you trying to contribute that way (but then I might be misremembering, with so much stuff going on in the forum).

 

I'm a nobody around here so am hesitant to say anything in this thread but casul observation incoming anyways:

 

the problem i see with this is that the parody indicated clear communication happened prior to someone questioning the direction. It's not gone as the parody suggested. It's more like being told they're going to make french toast and everyone is down with that, and then instead of using eggs-which everyone expects-they decide to use applesauce until the eggs can be gathered without telling anyone that's what they're doing until there's a flurry of "but...WHY's?" Then the communication happens and in a way that makes everyone feel like they're supposed to feel dumb for questioning it.

 

I'm just a lowly gamer who, if it goes in a direction i don't like-will just leave. Jax, on the other hand, has invested a crap ton of time and care into fleshing out his understanding of their vision and if it goes in a direction he can't continue to do that with-it's kind of a big deal. So he would be vocal because he's highly invested where those of us who are not-get irritated about the same things but don't bother to say much because ./shrug

 

So this seems like a pretty trashy way to treat someone who has done so much to keep people hanging in there with the game through all the strange versions of french toast.

[Jedo]

I think he is making light of your extremely large opinions because you are stating them during an experimental build, not even a stable release, i.e. a knee-jerk reaction. Maybe some of the latest build decisions are not to your liking, or previous ones. But the fact remains that it's still experimental and being tweaked and changed daily, so making a big post about how very saddened and disappointed you are of how it's all going to hell is overreacting. Proof of it is how you've already made long posts criticizing a change and then other posts praising them for changing it for the better during this same experimental.

 

I think Drithyl (and Roland) have the right of it, Jax, because I remember you doing the same thing before A16. You really didn't like the direction of something (I think you even led a #gate or two), then you came back trying to rally people under the banner of In Pimps We Trust. It's okay to admit that sometimes you lose faith in Joel but that TFP probably will get it right (i.e., to your liking) in the end.

[Drithyl]

I'm a nobody around here so am hesitant to say anything in this thread but casul observation incoming anyways:

 

the problem i see with this is that the parody indicated clear communication happened prior to someone questioning the direction. It's not gone as the parody suggested. It's more like being told they're going to make french toast and everyone is down with that, and then instead of using eggs-which everyone expects-they decide to use applesauce until the eggs can be gathered without telling anyone that's what they're doing until there's a flurry of "but...WHY's?" Then the communication happens and in a way that makes everyone feel like they're supposed to feel dumb for questioning it.

 

I'm just a lowly gamer who, if it goes in a direction i don't like-will just leave. Jax, on the other hand, has invested a crap ton of time and care into fleshing out his understanding of their vision and if it goes in a direction he can't continue to do that with-it's kind of a big deal. So he would be vocal because he's highly invested where those of us who are not-get irritated about the same things but don't bother to say much because ./shrug

 

So this seems like a pretty trashy way to treat someone who has done so much to keep people hanging in there with the game through all the strange versions of french toast.

 

It's a trashy way to treat someone if you interpret that Roland had a trashy intention while writing it. Of course, only the man himself knows that, but I seriously doubt that was the case. As others pointed out, it's more likely he was trying to lighten the mood.

 

As far as fleshing out visions go, Jax can take all the time in the world to flesh out his understanding (as you very well put it) of TFP's vision, but it will still remain his own interpretation of what their vision is. He will never be able to truly know what's in their mind, so getting upset about them appearing to not be loyal to their own vision seems a bit weird. And as I said, he can be disappointed with the differences between what he thought was their vision and their actual vision, but that should happen once the vision is established, i.e. once they have finished it and said "okay, we're satisfied with the status quo, this is our game". In the meantime, I see it as much more productive both for the devs and for him to try to steer them in the direction of his liking with his own ideas and suggestions and criticisms.

[Boldero]

 

So this seems like a pretty trashy way to treat someone who has done so much to keep people hanging in there with the game through all the strange versions of french toast.

 

Indeed it is

[JaxTeller718]

 

Save all those words for when it's stable .

 

Of course they want this. Because that's when nothing can be done about it. Let me ask you, should everyone who hated the perk level requirements, or the stamina drain also have not said anything? What about the builders who could not build due to no forge pre level 20?

 

Were THEY told to wait to stable and see how it goes. Its tiring hearing that kind of response even from higher ups when you have criticism of something that the collective does not agree is a problem.

 

I'm not dooming the game to oblivion. But as of right now, if this went to stable, in my opinion it would be awful. Maybe you don't agree and that's fine but that does not mean I have to wait until stable to offer my opinion, when no one will read it and no one will care because its stable.

[Benjiro]

Is it just me or is it possible that most of Roland's reputation is just other people misinterpreting his attempt at lightening the mood/making a joke?

 

The problem is that Roland has the habit of writing (trolish) posts at other peoples expense. When people are upset or question issues, being all cavalier about it, makes it only seem like more insult upon injury.

[Erik Louden]

My god this must be millennial hour - who cares, move on.

[Menace312]

Is it just me or is it possible that most of Roland's reputation is just other people misinterpreting his attempt at lightening the mood/making a joke?

 

Yeh, but that's really true of most negatives/hearsays about others...

 

The people love the drama!

[Myrrah]

It's a trashy way to treat someone if you interpret that Roland had a trashy intention while writing it. Of course, only the man himself knows that, but I seriously doubt that was the case. As others pointed out, it's more likely he was trying to lighten the mood.

 

As far as fleshing out visions go, Jax can take all the time in the world to flesh out his understanding (as you very well put it) of TFP's vision, but it will still remain his own interpretation of what their vision is. He will never be able to truly know what's in their mind, so getting upset about them appearing to not be loyal to their own vision seems a bit weird. And as I said, he can be disappointed with the differences between what he thought was their vision and their actual vision, but that should happen once the vision is established, i.e. once they have finished it and said "okay, we're satisfied with the status quo, this is our game". In the meantime, I see it as much more productive both for the devs and for him to try to steer them in the direction of his liking with his own ideas and suggestions and criticisms.

 

As Jax stated-if he waited until then it woud be too late. It would be signed, sealed and delivered. And a lot of people would vanish without a word as to why. I would SO much rather it be questioned in the process than to keep hanging in there for months (years actually, now) waiting for it to all suddenly make sense but it just never does

[Menace312]

The problem is that Roland has the habit of writing (trolish) posts at other peoples expense. When people are upset or question issues, being all cavalier about it, makes it only seem like more insult upon injury.

 

So voice your complaint, and if it seems ignored then move along... Its not like this is the general hospital or the public library.

 

Why try to enforce your agenda, just because you deem it pc. God I hate pc...

[JaxTeller718]

It's a trashy way to treat someone if you interpret that Roland had a trashy intention while writing it. Of course, only the man himself knows that, but I seriously doubt that was the case. As others pointed out, it's more likely he was trying to lighten the mood.

 

 

I don't think him mocking me by saying "oh yeah jax we know you're mad now but you're already writing that post of blind praise like you always do" is good natured fun. Its a direct attempt to discredit everything I posted by tossing it out the window as just "another silly jax rant, move along". There's a time for poking fun and a time for discussion but both of his replies to my rather heartfelt and respectful opinion on xperimental so far was to basically point and laugh at me.

 

Which has now directly influenced my opinion of this entire company as he is the face of it presently. And I know no one cares in the slightest, as i said i'm just a number. But for the first time in my 2 plus years here I get the feeling debate is no longer allowed. Im not the only poster this has happened to. Because if you don't tow the company line you'll be made fun of, and mocked and basically discredited. If you didn't like my post then ignore it like you usually do. If you think I'm wrong tell me why. I'll respect that. Ill engage.

 

Anyway Im done derailing this thread. Id appreciate if no one responded to any of what I just said. I don't want to further continue this argument here. It's not the place for it. It just sucks you can't actually criticize something here without the Breakfast Club joining rings and activating "Defense Mode Power".

[wwesn]

I don't think him mocking me by saying "oh yeah jax we know you're mad now but you're already writing that post of blind praise like you always do" is good natured fun. Its a direct attempt to discredit everything I posted by tossing it out the window as just "another silly jax rant, move along". There's a time for poking fun and a time for discussion but both of his replies to my rather heartfelt and respectful opinion on xperimental so far was to basically point and laugh at me.

 

Which has now directly influenced my opinion of this entire company as he is the face of it presently. And I know no one cares in the slightest, as i said i'm just a number. But for the first time in my 2 plus years here I get the feeling debate is no longer allowed. Im not the only poster this has happened to. Because if you don't tow the company line you'll be made fun of, and mocked and basically discredited. If you didn't like my post then ignore it like you usually do. If you think I'm wrong tell me why. I'll respect that. Ill engage.

 

Anyway Im done derailing this thread. Id appreciate if no one responded to any of what I just said. I don't want to further continue this argument here. It's not the place for it. It just sucks you can't actually criticize something here without the Breakfast Club joining rings and activating "Defense Mode Power".

 

Yep, doesn't matter what they do - the Fun Pimps Cheerleading Squad will always be here shaking their pom poms for them!

[Jedo]

Why try to enforce your agenda, just because you deem it pc. God I hate pc...

 

You take that ♥♥♥♥ to the console forum!

[Jugginator]

I didnt make the cut

 

It's because you were flaccid

[Drithyl]

Of course they want this. Because that's when nothing can be done about it. Let me ask you, should everyone who hated the perk level requirements, or the stamina drain also have not said anything? What about the builders who could not build due to no forge pre level 20?

 

Were THEY told to wait to stable and see how it goes. Its tiring hearing that kind of response even from higher ups when you have criticism of something that the collective does not agree is a problem.

 

I'm not dooming the game to oblivion. But as of right now, if this went to stable, in my opinion it would be awful. Maybe you don't agree and that's fine but that does not mean I have to wait until stable to offer my opinion, when no one will read it and no one will care because its stable.

 

As Jax stated-if he waited until then it woud be too late. It would be signed, sealed and delivered. And a lot of people would vanish without a word as to why. I would SO much rather it be questioned in the process than to keep hanging in there for months (years actually, now) waiting for it to all suddenly make sense but it just never does

 

Where did I tell Jax to shut up until it was released on stable? I told him to precisely post focusing on the changes he dislikes and providing ideas on how to change them or improve them, instead of writing an entire paragraph on how it's all the wrong direction and a lost cause, etc.

 

And what do you mean, "they want this"? Why is there a developer diary then, if they want all of us to shut up? Lol

[Roland]

Any other time I would laugh along with this joke. But the fact you keep insisting that my criticism means I no longer support the Pimps or the game or that I'M somehow in the wrong for not enjoying the direction of this Alpha or that I just don't "get it" tells me everything I need to know. The fact we cant even have an honest conversation about it is worse.

 

I don't think you will no longer support the Pimps. As I said, I know based on history that you WILL support the Pimps sometime soon. Jax, you write huge manifestos in alternating patterns of support and rejection all the time. I will say that I used to get worried about you after some of your more critical posts but the poignancy of your posts is no longer there.

 

I'm ok being the scapegoat. Joke away at my expense and everyone else's expense who are disappointed. Embrace the love and the praise. I've always been told its ok to be critical as long as it's done respectfully. I think my initial post was pretty respectful. The responses I got have been not.

 

I'm not joking about your criticism. I'm joking about your tendency to go large with huge manifestos and sweeping judgements right after some change you don't like comes out and then just as often reverse your position after playing with it after awhile. And I AM just joking. People joke at my expense all the time. Your criticism is valid and you make great points that others have already posted +1's for so you are definitely representing. Your initial post wasn't what I was poking fun at anyway. It was your follow up post to me and going on about how the current random gen is supposed to signify a direction that is backwards towards A16 and you'll NEVER make another positive post about this experimental A17 because your positive feelings were thrown out after a week in...

 

Im not about to become a jaded hater because of this forum. My post was a heartfelt letter to Joel and the Pimps. I honestly wish i could just pick his brain a bit, get his insight etc. This is my only avenue to do so, so I tried. But if Im now lumped into a category of other people who have been actually disrespectful to the Pimps in the past, even insulting then this is a community I no longer need to be a part of.

 

Then I would respectfully suggest you ask questions instead of making sweeping and dramatic statements about the (wrong) direction TFP is obviously going. Usually when you want to pick someone's brain and find out why you do it by asking sincere questions.

 

Why did you drop level gates? Are you trying to make the game easier and more approachable to new players or is there another reason?

 

vs

 

ANOTHER move to COMPLETELY rip out the heart of all that was good and challenging about the new update CLEARLY shows the direction TFP is moving and it is a direction I cannot support!

 

The first one sounds like someone wanting to pick Joel's brain and the second one sounds like you. BTW, I never lumped you in with the haters. They were labeled as "Some" and you were labeled as "JAX" completely separate from them. I know you're not a hater

 

News Flash: Some people HATE my mod, think its garbage. But I don't make multi paragraph posts with the intention of making them feel stupid for having an opinion in the first place, and I would NEVER be dismissive of well thought out criticism. But what do I know? Im just a number, and a hater.

 

Okay Okay....enough with the waterworks. You are a hugely popular member of this community. Nobody thinks of you as one of a mob of nameless haters. You are Jax and you are passionate and opinionated and tons of people love how and what you post. I'm opinionated too and I know I rub some people the wrong way. Some want me to be more professional (Fat chance!) and others call me a koolaid drinking fanboi yes-man asshat. If I have irrevocably offended you then I'm sorry and I hope you'll forgive my joke at your expense. I just enjoy the ride of witnessing the changes whatever they are. If it means I only get to play a particular version for a scant 2 weeks before it is gone forever I'm just grateful I had the chance and can lord it over all the new players who join up later and never got to try A17 experimental at all. I don't ever worry about what this game might become. I just play each new version as a different game and am glad that I got to try them. Some are good and some are bad but all are temporary.

[Jedo]

Of course they want this. Because that's when nothing can be done about it. Let me ask you, should everyone who hated the perk level requirements, or the stamina drain also have not said anything? What about the builders who could not build due to no forge pre level 20?

 

Were THEY told to wait to stable and see how it goes.

 

First of all, Drithyl said "stable" not "Gold release." At A17 stable, there is still time to give feedback.

 

Second, there's a difference between giving feedback and saying things like "TFP are going in a bad direction" and "I'm never playing again." (For the record, those are not equivalent, but neither of them is "feedback.") Saying, "This stamina drain makes the game tedious" or "I like to build concrete bases on Day 1" are fine as far as feedback is concerned; making it a melodramatic mess is not. What makes this even less desirable is that TFP constantly is working on balance, which is like 95% of the complaints. If people would just take a moment to realize this fact, everything would be a lot better here on the forum.

 

(I know that you said not to respond to your posts, but this part really is a worthwhile conversation...even if the forum already has had it a thousand times.)

[Erik Louden]

Roland can we have a separate thread where the arguments of the last 10 pages can be moved to.

[FileMachete]

Just to clarify my earlier post about working to be a bit mor respectful towards each other;

 

I -like- the banter & sillyness. This ain't Granmamas' house. It's more like a Hillbilly ho-down with plenty of moonshine, and it's fun

 

DeVega posting something like, "git away from that girl Snowdog! She's yer second cousin! go on now, git!" ? All in good fun.

 

But I think we should be a bit more respectful of Ma & Pa, and maybe a bit more sympathetic when a long lost or new cousin shows up with a booboo.

 

Hoping that in the end maybe we'll get to see Pa up on the porch carrying on about how he plans to sell his moonshine over in Jefferson County.

 

Now how bout another slice of that peach cobbler Miz June? It surely is delisous!

[Frekton]

Roland can we have a separate thread where the arguments of the last 10 pages can be moved to.

 

Yes please or at least please make a post that says bull♥♥♥♥ starts here/buls♥♥♥♥ stops here so we can scroll past all of this...

[Roland]

So this seems like a pretty trashy way to treat someone who has done so much to keep people hanging in there with the game through all the strange versions of french toast.

 

If I didn't know Jax or hadn't read his hundreds of posts over the past three years or so it would be pretty trashy and perhaps I misjudged Jax's apparent state of real despair over this experimental to the point that he couldn't be a good sport about being the one joked about. Jax has a pretty standard pattern of posting and that is all I was making light of.

 

I would never single you out, for example, because I don't know you. But Jax is a regular. And he has joked about me in the past.

[Reckis]

Yeh, but that's really true of most negatives/hearsays about others...

 

The people love the drama!

 

Lol! And the biggest reason for my general avoidance of all things forum! But my love for this game and the need for any scrap of info regarding its development has drug me reluctantly thru the door. 😱

[Kosmic Kerman]

A genius is never appreciated in his time.