A step backwards with the new skill/perk system?

[TurtleGains]

I am enjoying everything about the new alpha except the skill/perk system. I feel like we've gone backwards with this whole perk/level system. It's been a while since I played a16 but I remember before you would be rewarded for using your abilities/tools. The best way to improve your stamina was to do more cardio by running. Best way to improve block damage was to damage blocks. Best way to improve arrow damage was to shoot arrows. On top of that generic skill points could be used to supplement any weaknesses you feel like your character possesses.

 

In the game's current state, the best way to improve an ability seems very disconnected to that ability's use and is instead just tied to killing zombies and level that specific ability. You could have huge arrow damage late game just through meleeing zombies entire game and putting skill points into arrow perk despite never having shot an arrow entire game.

 

This also means there is less opportunities for specialisation as there was before. Before you could have, in your party, a farmer, a weaponsmith, a builder, etc - all these roles would have buffed out their respective abilities through hours of use. This is near impossible to do in the game's current state - everyone just ends up playing a zombie shooter FPS game.

 

Thoughts?

[Snowydeath]

Actually stamina and health were governed by the wellness system. Eating good food yielded more wellness which boosted health and stamina.

[R0bb0b]

Actually stamina and health were governed by the wellness system. Eating good food yielded more wellness which boosted health and stamina.

 

Stamina was also built into the perks as well but Miner 69er no longer offers a stamina boost. The stamina boost to sprinting has been nerfed as well. Also the severe nerf to steel tools is very damaging.

[JCrook1028]

I much preferred the A16 system of gaining mining skill by mining, archery skill by shooting the bow etc. Having the xp for zombie killing being effectively the only way to level is something A17 sorely needs to balance. I only hope they agree and seriously cut zombie xp and add to xp from other activities. Ideally to me would be a combining of the A16/A17 systems. Instead of level gating certain things gate them behind actually doing those things. Want that shiny new mining perk? Go mining. Want that melee stamina perk? Go bust some heads.

[Kieron]

Yeah i agree, A17 feels like a huge backward step to me too. I loved A16's skill and wellness system. This new perk system is pretty lame. Hopefully in the future the old skill system will be modded back in. The perks in ADDITION to the old skill leveling was fantastic. Anyway hopefully modding can restore the game and make it fun again.

[Jugginator]

To each their own; I absolutely hated the old system. Wellness was a pain in the ass to level up if you added any points into Survivor since you were full for 7 days on one meat stew, and even with zombie spawns modded to produce 20-40 at a time on horde nights, the entire night, I never leveled up archery or any gun skills without having to put points into them. I don't get why some people say "omg new a17 is 7 days to grind" when a16 was "better shoot my rifle 9,000,000 times/mine half the planet/shoot 7,000,000,000 arrows/either stand in barbed wire for a week straight or get hit by zombies for dozens of hours to increase my skills". If someone can mod it, that's great for those who liked that. But to me, phoey lol.

[AtomicUs5000]

I don't hate the perks, but I do prefer the A16 system better. The combination of applying skill points and improving a trait by being active in that trait was superb. There were only a couple things I didn't like about the A16 system. Firstly, it was a mess and it did not look as polished nor as professional as the current system. Secondly, I didn't like that you could accidentally invest points in the skills that would progress naturally through experience. For this alpha, they could actually keep the perks the way they are and bring in the focused traits to make a new hybrid system... and I would be ecstatic. One thing can be skills and the other mastery, or something of the sort. They don't even have to provide a huge advantage to feel a sense of accomplishment. Just a little boost in some trait through hard work would be nice.

[Jamey]

I think that the A17 system is conceptually better than A16, but it needs a bit of a balance pass on things like XP gain (specifically sources other than kills and sales to traders) and the level gating.

[YseGuy]

Right, IMHO balancing would improve things a lot. I'd like to see

- A bit more of XP gain for activities that are not zed killing

- A bit less of XP gain for zed killing

- A slightly increased chance for zed's to drop loot

As it is now, I feel like you have to interrupt the "useful" activities like base building, exploring, crafting and stuff just to go and kill zed's, in order to gain enough XP to level up. This is esp true in SP, where you have to do it all on your own.

[Vedui]

I believe both systems A16 and A17 have good things in them, and I wish they would review combining them. Ie, the new stuff is the new stuff, but also add on some of the incremental "use to improve" and maybe disallow raising it with skill points.

 

ie, athletics gain by moving around. Run more, get more. Maybe resulting is less stamina drain, and maybe even slightly increased movement speed ... ie, from 100 % up to 125 % at 100 skill level. So you can't cheese, except by running around a lot.

 

Same with say mining/using weapons. Keep the current with perks, but if you spend time shooting the pistol, let it go from 0 to 100 skill level, and damage goes up from 100 % to 125 % as you hit skill-level 100. Or 150 % damage.

 

And so on for things you can do, but can't easily cheese. Ie you could imagine people just shooting off 9mm rounds and bumping pistols? Maybe. But then tie it to hitting a zombie. No hit, no skill gain. So can't just craft 1000 rounds and shoot into a wall to bump it.

 

That would combine a great organic growth with a bought-skill system I think.

 

/V -

[beHypE]

My biggest gripe is that there are so many "branches" but only one type of "skill points", which leads to you being able to easily specialize in something before ever practicing that aspect of the game. Killing zombies to get xp lets you become a better cook... it's kind of immersion breaking and feels dull to become elite at something by doing something totally different and simply spending the points.

[Zourin]

Perk-by-level system is fine. I wish they'd settle on something, but 7DTD has been evolving in this direction for a while now.

 

The 'level as you use it' was a failed project because people would just try to sit and grind out stone axes all night. It became an exercise of what to do repetitively to level up the fastest, and there would always be YT guides on the hackiest way to break the system, whether it was stone axes or standing in a fire or whatever. Perk point-buy cuts the crap and just says "you have x-points to spend on whatever makes you happy, except RL happiness. If you want immersion, take a bath."

[Guest]

Current system needs balancing, and as far as I know, TFP are looking at distributing XP over multiple activities a little better.

 

But A17 doesn't feel less immersive to me than obsessively repeating one action just to raise your skill in it. Opening cupboards and trashcans like a maniac, just so you can finally raise your looting enough to be able to get the next tier of Quality Joe. Someone else mentioned standing in barbwire or letting yourself get hit by zombies to raise your armor skill. And don't forget you could just level by doing nothing but mining, and the resulting bucket of skill points could be put anywhere as well. Didn't hear anyone complain back then.

 

As long as XP is distributed a little more evenly among different activities, the A17 system is superior imho. Allows for more control over how you want to shape your character.

[Khulkhuum]

I agree with Hrod Land. A17 perk system needs some balancing and it will be good.

 

I hated many aspects of A16 skill system. Sure you could gain experience in many areas by doing things, but many others were neglected. Additionally, there was mostly ONE WAY to play the game, adding to specific skills for stamina, health, crafting (weapons or tools), mining (miner 69'er), getting workbench, etc. You still had to wait to an appropriate level to raise tool/weapon/armor crafting high enough.

 

I definitely not blabbered on the forum how the game was unfair in A16. It was as it was, just like A17 for now is as it is. We had 1 hour death debuff, now we have 30 minute. Things will get to a better state, you just have to wait and perhaps most of your concerns will be cleared.

[Viktoriusiii]

I love that ppl say "ppl abused the system to get better" as if ppl wont find out what yeilds most xp now.

And to quote ppl on other discussions "whAy dO YoU cAEHr abOuT wHaT OthEr pPl dO????"

It wasn't mandatory. The benefits were marginal at best.

Xp and perks are such a dumbed down system... it actually hurts, seein 7d2d manhandled and gutted like this.

[Shillen]

I love that ppl say "ppl abused the system to get better" as if ppl wont find out what yeilds most xp now.

And to quote ppl on other discussions "whAy dO YoU cAEHr abOuT wHaT OthEr pPl dO????"

It wasn't mandatory. The benefits were marginal at best.

Xp and perks are such a dumbed down system... it actually hurts, seein 7d2d manhandled and gutted like this.

 

Yeah, now you "abuse" it by just killing every zombie you see. I used to leave zombie hordes be most of the time because I often had better things to do. Now every time I see a walking horde during daytime I go out of my way to kill them all and level up 2 times. If this isn't abusing the system I don't know what it is.

[RestInPieces]

Yeah, now you "abuse" it by just killing every zombie you see. I used to leave zombie hordes be most of the time because I often had better things to do. Now every time I see a walking horde during daytime I go out of my way to kill them all and level up 2 times. If this isn't abusing the system I don't know what it is.

 

Comparing two systems that are not balanced and taking into account their balance flaws is fruitless. Better compare them as how they could be, instead of how they had been.

[HerrKingsley]

I prefer a16 over a17 skill/perk system, and to be honest a13 the most.

What I don't understand is why wasn't the trader utilized better in A16 to please those who hate RNG?

Gate items like the wrench, beaker, antibiotics and books could have been permanent in traders inventory. Or now in A17 tied to quest.

That way you could get lucky or have a certain way to get hold of it.

[TurtleGains]

To each their own; I absolutely hated the old system. Wellness was a pain in the ass to level up if you added any points into Survivor since you were full for 7 days on one meat stew, and even with zombie spawns modded to produce 20-40 at a time on horde nights, the entire night, I never leveled up archery or any gun skills without having to put points into them. I don't get why some people say "omg new a17 is 7 days to grind" when a16 was "better shoot my rifle 9,000,000 times/mine half the planet/shoot 7,000,000,000 arrows/either stand in barbed wire for a week straight or get hit by zombies for dozens of hours to increase my skills". If someone can mod it, that's great for those who liked that. But to me, phoey lol.

 

I don't miss the wellness system either.

 

But your other concerns sound more like balance issues. Maybe instead of shooting rifle 9,000,000 times, adjust it to 90 times to increase your rifle skill. So did you hate the system or did you hate the balance (which a mod could easily fix)?

 

Perk-by-level system is fine. I wish they'd settle on something, but 7DTD has been evolving in this direction for a while now.

 

The 'level as you use it' was a failed project because people would just try to sit and grind out stone axes all night. It became an exercise of what to do repetitively to level up the fastest, and there would always be YT guides on the hackiest way to break the system, whether it was stone axes or standing in a fire or whatever. Perk point-buy cuts the crap and just says "you have x-points to spend on whatever makes you happy, except RL happiness. If you want immersion, take a bath."

 

Sounds like easy fixes to be honest. Your crafting skill goes up in proportion to time spent crafting, not number of items crafted. That way you are rewarded heavily for always crafting and thus using your time efficiently. I'm not sure about standing in fire - is that armor rating? If so I agree that needs a better solution. Point is you are rewarded appropriately for doing things - trading improves your trade skill, looting improved your loot skill, rifling improves your rifling skill.

 

In A17 I feel TFP have changed that grind which was previously split between trading/ looting/ crafting/ shooting/ running/ etc into just kill all ze zombies.

 

But A17 doesn't feel less immersive to me than obsessively repeating one action just to raise your skill in it. Opening cupboards and trashcans like a maniac, just so you can finally raise your looting enough to be able to get the next tier of Quality Joe. Someone else mentioned standing in barbwire or letting yourself get hit by zombies to raise your armor skill. And don't forget you could just level by doing nothing but mining, and the resulting bucket of skill points could be put anywhere as well. Didn't hear anyone complain back then.

 

As long as XP is distributed a little more evenly among different activities, the A17 system is superior imho. Allows for more control over how you want to shape your character.

 

Again, in A17 I feel TFP have changed that grind which was previously split between trading/looting/crafting/shooting/running/etc into just kill all ze zombies. I'd prefer to "open cupboards and trashcans like a maniac" to improve my looting skill rather than shoot zombies like a maniac to improve my looting skill. If I just wanted to play a zombie shooter FPS there are many other games better than 7 days for that.

 

Seems people here who disliked A16 system really disliked the balance and not the concept.

[Jugginator]

I don't miss the wellness system either.

 

But your other concerns sound more like balance issues. Maybe instead of shooting rifle 9,000,000 times, adjust it to 90 times to increase your rifle skill. So did you hate the system or did you hate the balance (which a mod could easily fix)?

 

Not really; tbh it felt weird. I don't need to shoot a gun a ton of time to be able to do more damage with it. Same can be said about perks, but without them it would be boring. I prefer the RPG element of specialization in such. And you do enough damage with them without the perks, buything them makes them more fun/better. I hated the system, if I was solo the first thing I did was giveskillxp mining tools / etc, I much prefer the new way lol.

[Kalarro]

I like both systems tbh. I was sad when crafting for leveling crafting skill was gone, bc I liked it. But I also like this one, so I dont care much tbh

I miss lvl 1-600 items tho, which is related since the old skill system allowed it instead of just 6 lvls.

[grieferbastard]

I love the new skill and perk system, I feel like I have a much more interesting set of build options.

 

I do think steel tools for mining are worthless now and in fact any tool use is really, really slow and cumbersome.

 

If A17 went in approximately like it is I literally wouldn't play it long term without making steel tools way better at breaking stuff down.

 

As I said else where it feels like I'm tepidly slapping at a mountain with a ham sandwich.

[JCrook1028]

Yeah, now you "abuse" it by just killing every zombie you see. I used to leave zombie hordes be most of the time because I often had better things to do. Now every time I see a walking horde during daytime I go out of my way to kill them all and level up 2 times. If this isn't abusing the system I don't know what it is.

 

Yep, me too. I use to play "smart" and avoid confrontation as more of an RP style. Now I see a zombie I go kill it because it's effectively the only way to level. The new xp balance Joel spoke of can't come soon enough as far as I am concerned.

[~Kevin~]

Title should not have a question mark as the new skill is step backwards.

 

The more you do something, the better you get at it. There is no need to put skill points into stuff like stamina, as people get better the more they use certain things.

[Deceptive Pastry]

I enjoy A17 quite a bit but A16 felt like a much more balanced survival experience. The change of skill systems is one of my top 3 complaints about A17 (along with the oversimplification of the guns/durability system and the major decrease of headshot damage). Most of the arguments in this thread against A16 are matters of balancing certain skills, not the whole system needing to be scrapped. The system of getting better at something by doing it felt more rewarding, made the game feel more immersive, and generally made sense. I also liked having to find more books to learn certain things. I felt more driven to loot and it felt good to finally get that book you've been seeking out for 5 in-game days. Looking for books to learn is something I'd see myself doing in such a situation in real life. Now guns, ammo, and a lot of really good gear is given out like candy...in my 50 some hours of A16 I never once felt like selling a gun. In A17 I had a chest with multiple rows full of guns and temporary magazines as trader trash and 100-200 of each ammo type by the end of the first week... In A17 I kinda just feel like killing zombies most of the time, which that part of the game has definitely improved, but all the rest feels a bit less important now.