Very bad Random Gen

[Kubikus]

I personally would be happy if the current terrain/road/city generation is combined with random biomes from A16. That would be the best of both worlds.

I almost agree. The cities feel a lot more realistic, these I like a lot, same counts for water and roads.

 

The reduced number of biomes, the patchy burnt forest and wasteland, and the always same placement of snow and desert are bad, and so is the terrain.

 

Cities, water and roads from A17 combined with biomes and terrain from A16 would be ideal.

 

And of course the option to generate much (much) larger worlds. Even if it takes a day, particularly when you can then share the files from the worlds folder and have other people generate a playable world from that in a much shorter time.

[Gilthanaz]

I hereby hijack this thread for some feedback on the RWG While it's not ideal yet and especially the roads are erratic, the map we've generated is playable without problems for most of the time. Just clipping through the world sometimes, which is "fixed" by logging out and back in and might be a result of not restarting after the update to B199.

 

However, my two cents:

I preferred the approach in 16.4 with the biomes separated, especially the "scorched earth" biome. Now it's littered all over the map in patches and I really don't like that. I really liked having cities in a nice biome that was not burned. I liked my woods without burned ruins every 25 meters. Can we please tune down the random scorched earth patches a LOT or even disable them and just have them as biome again?

 

Also, Cities. It appears that Cities are smaller and more "chaotic" than in A16.4; For me it was always a goal to find a large city that wasn't burned down (= not in a scorched earth biome) and rebuild society there Tighter Clusters of large buildings in the center would probably also be awesome

 

Happy to read that RWG will be worked on some more!

[beHypE]

I guess because I recognize this is but v1 of an entirely new method for making random worlds, and I trust in Kinyajuu, so I know it will get better?

 

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And where is this "having to buy 3rd party programs" coming from?

 

You mean gaia? That's just an option... Certainly not a necessity.

.

You can technically use mspaint. =)

 

Or, just use the mixer, like always...

 

Look, you people wanted a17e, and you got a17e... Would you have rather waited until (new)Rwg 2.0?

 

...me neither.

 

You guys complain about the weirdest ♥♥♥♥ sometimes...

 

But this is exactly the problem here. A LOT of features in A17 were advertised as being huge evolutions compared to A16, but in reality how many of those really are ?

Don't get me wrong, A17 added cool stuff and I can only imagine how much work has been done. But I'm with Jax here, it feels like everything got streamlined, especially RWG, Skills/Perks and Loot Levelling.

 

Also, I have to pinpoint a major paradox in your comments. The game is getting "closer and closer to what the dev team wants it to be", but at the same time, "it's only a v1, wait for what is coming" ? It's already a hard enough pill to swallow that 1+ year has passed and a lot of things feel like major downgrades, but you can't just associate "it's getting closer" and "it's a v1". Snow north, forest center and desert south is either a representation of The Pimp's vision for what RWG maps are supposed to look like, or it's a WIP and a placeholder for the real RWG that is coming. It just can't be both at the same time.

 

I agree modding is a huge part of 7DTD and a way to enjoy the game exactly the way we want it to. But as Jax pointed out, it feels like everything that doesn't please the players gets tossed in that "mod it" wagon and it feels too easy of an escape line when it's systematic. Yes, modding should enhance the gaming experience, that doesn't mean vanilla shouldn't feel both amazing and balanced in itself. Especially when a huge chunk of the playerbase probably doesn't even know how modding works or even what it is.

 

I'm glad RWG is going to get worked on, and I can't wait for it to be great again.

[crazywildfire]

But this is exactly the problem here. A LOT of features in A17 were advertised as being huge evolutions compared to A16, but in reality how many of those really are ?

Don't get me wrong, A17 added cool stuff and I can only imagine how much work has been done. But I'm with Jax here, it feels like everything got streamlined, especially RWG, Skills/Perks and Loot Levelling.

 

Also, I have to pinpoint a major paradox in your comments. The game is getting "closer and closer to what the dev team wants it to be", but at the same time, "it's only a v1, wait for what is coming" ? It's already a hard enough pill to swallow that 1+ year has passed and a lot of things feel like major downgrades, but you can't just associate "it's getting closer" and "it's a v1". Snow north, forest center and desert south is either a representation of The Pimp's vision for what RWG maps are supposed to look like, or it's a WIP and a placeholder for the real RWG that is coming. It just can't be both at the same time.

 

I agree modding is a huge part of 7DTD and a way to enjoy the game exactly the way we want it to. But as Jax pointed out, it feels like everything that doesn't please the players gets tossed in that "mod it" wagon and it feels too easy of an escape line when it's systematic. Yes, modding should enhance the gaming experience, that doesn't mean vanilla shouldn't feel both amazing and balanced in itself. Especially when a huge chunk of the playerbase probably doesn't even know how modding works or even what it is.

 

I'm glad RWG is going to get worked on, and I can't wait for it to be great again.

 

Why can't it be both? I feel some try to read to much into something then what it is. Maybe I missed a comment somewhere or missed read something along the way. But what does rwg have anything to with the game being closer to what they want then ever before? RWG is one thing out of many and many things. As far as the downgrade that is a matter of opinion. No facts what so ever. Just because the left hand feels a downgrade and the right hand feels it is a upgrade doesn't make it one way or the other but just shows a preference.

 

This isn't a surprise, MM said in one of the videos he made for A17 that this was coming and explained why. What is a surprise is the way it is in layers like it is right now but as it has been said this is going to be worked on more. But as I remember from that video, they have reasons to why they cut out a few biomes.

[Kubikus]

If you wanna know what the devs want the game to be, just look at Navezgane. There, biomes are large areas. I agree that it's fairly save to assume that the RWG will be fixed, so my only personal concerns are: Can we have more than five biomes + design the worlds, i.e. make a ringworld. Painting the map would be acceptable as well; that that's possible is only hearsay at this point, though.

[beHypE]

Why can't it be both? I feel some try to read to much into something then what it is. Maybe I missed a comment somewhere or missed read something along the way. But what does rwg have anything to with the game being closer to what they want then ever before? RWG is one thing out of many and many things. As far as the downgrade that is a matter of opinion. No facts what so ever. Just because the left hand feels a downgrade and the right hand feels it is a upgrade doesn't make it one way or the other but just shows a preference.

 

This isn't a surprise, MM said in one of the videos he made for A17 that this was coming and explained why. What is a surprise is the way it is in layers like it is right now but as it has been said this is going to be worked on more. But as I remember from that video, they have reasons to why they cut out a few biomes.

 

Yes, everything I said is my opinion, not facts. Do I really need to start every phrase with "I think that", "In my opinion", "If you ask me" so that you don't dismiss my whole argument with the "nothing you said is facts" line ?

 

I was referring to Guppy when he said :

Jax, the inevitable conclusion of game development is always going to be "mod it if you don't like it".

 

At some point the devs lock in on what they want and how they want it.

 

...and we are nearing that point.

 

I just don't agree that "mod it if you don't like it" is the go to phrase. I mean sure, TFP implement everything the way they want, it's their game after all. But then we might just scrap these forum if none of our opinions matter and the only thing left to do is to mod our games to our tastes. I don't wanna sound salty because I'm not, but I'm just fed up with reading "mod mod mod" whenever a discussion sparks up that doesn't go in line with the "vision" TFP have.

 

Nothing forces them to actually give any explanations regarding anything, but I really, REALLY would love to understand why they think some of the changes in A17 are for the better. Take RWG. How is it fun to always know exactly where which biome is, when the very point of RWG (IN MY OPINION) is to actually roam the map in order to find the biomes you're looking for ? Why is it better to have 1-6 levels on tools/weapons instead of 1-500, and the levels not actually increasing the efficiency of the tool ? Why do I just need to "spend a skillpoint" to craft better tools, instead of getting better in time by crafting/using them ? Why is it better to remove books that added replayability because you wouldn't ever find all the schematics in the same order, and make everything perk-based, which means at some point min-maxing will just result in having a superior strat no matter what ?

 

Like I said, their game, their choices. But I think a lot of the hate is given out of lack of comprehension for the decisions. Guppy & Roland seem to know more about the end-game purpose of those changes, but since we don't, we can't but see the picture for what it is as of today. If the answer is "wait or mod", then having any debates is just a waste of time.

[Guppycur]

By all means. We waited patiently a whole year for the update. And this is everything TFP came up with? And now we where ask to wait even longer to get a half decent solution for this total mess that you call proud an rwg? I have a really hard time to believe in TFP right now.

 

I don´t know if TFP understands in the slightest what the modders have done for them all this years. They provided the community with what they needed to be able to play the game through all the month of waiting and hoping. They are the ones that came up with many solutions for problems TFP didn´t want to solve and a ton of new ideas to improve the game. To make it fun to play, to make it worth the wait for the next update. And they are the ones that got slapped right in the face. They are the pillar of this community and I urge TFP not to forget that.

 

Yes. They have totally disrespected modders. So much that they exposed MORE hard code to xml, opened up a second path to editing terrain, made a buff system so robust it should be called "custom variables", introduced dialogue trees for quests, and virtually unlocked the ID limits. Oh, and one more treat for the dnspy people that I won't mention because Alloc is having fun not telling people...

 

And of course, we no longer need SDX to integrate custom sounds, mesh files, lights, overlays, colliders, textures, modelshapes, and particles to the game.

 

Horrible, horrible pimps. How dare they make modding EASIER for us! They forgot all about us!

 

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That's actually 12 if you include the radiated, that you could also design. If the additional 7 biomes are gone, I'd like to reiterate my corresponding question: Why? Never ever have I seen anybody complain about too many biomes. I saw a few modders wishing for more. Unlimited would be nice, obviously.

 

Gazz mentioned some technical unity limitation I don't fully understand... something about no more than 3 terrain textures in the same scene? I dunno, I didn't really understand it, but it was his explanation.

 

I too would like more biome choices via vanilla.

 

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And of course the option to generate much (much) larger worlds. Even if it takes a day, particularly when you can then share the files from the worlds folder and have other people generate a playable world from that in a much shorter time.

 

And of course you can already do that; it's simply temporarily locked out for the normal menu users, anyone with notepad can do it easily, just like in a16.

 

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But this is exactly the problem here. A LOT of features in A17 were advertised as being huge evolutions compared to A16, but in reality how many of those really are ?

Don't get me wrong, A17 added cool stuff and I can only imagine how much work has been done. But I'm with Jax here, it feels like everything got streamlined, especially RWG, Skills/Perks and Loot Levelling.

 

Also, I have to pinpoint a major paradox in your comments. The game is getting "closer and closer to what the dev team wants it to be", but at the same time, "it's only a v1, wait for what is coming" ? It's already a hard enough pill to swallow that 1+ year has passed and a lot of things feel like major downgrades, but you can't just associate "it's getting closer" and "it's a v1". Snow north, forest center and desert south is either a representation of The Pimp's vision for what RWG maps are supposed to look like, or it's a WIP and a placeholder for the real RWG that is coming. It just can't be both at the same time.

 

I agree modding is a huge part of 7DTD and a way to enjoy the game exactly the way we want it to. But as Jax pointed out, it feels like everything that doesn't please the players gets tossed in that "mod it" wagon and it feels too easy of an escape line when it's systematic. Yes, modding should enhance the gaming experience, that doesn't mean vanilla shouldn't feel both amazing and balanced in itself. Especially when a huge chunk of the playerbase probably doesn't even know how modding works or even what it is.

 

I'm glad RWG is going to get worked on, and I can't wait for it to be great again.

 

So are we still upset it took a17 a year to come out? Because that's what I'm reading. If THAT'S the case, then fine, that's a legit criticism, but I stand by my comment that the game is going to go gold at some point and have a "final vision", so that modding is the ONLY recourse, and that they've gone out of their way to make that easier for us.

 

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If you wanna know what the devs want the game to be, just look at Navezgane. There, biomes are large areas. I agree that it's fairly save to assume that the RWG will be fixed, so my only personal concerns are: Can we have more than five biomes + design the worlds, i.e. make a ringworld. Painting the map would be acceptable as well; that that's possible is only hearsay at this point, though.

 

Lol, hearsay and video proof. I wrote my name in mountains. 4sheetz has the biome painting solved. I'm sorry YOUR attempts have been unsuccessful, but ours haven't.

[Guppycur]

Yes, everything I said is my opinion, not facts. Do I really need to start every phrase with "I think that", "In my opinion", "If you ask me" so that you don't dismiss my whole argument with the "nothing you said is facts" line ?

 

I was referring to Guppy when he said :

 

 

I just don't agree that "mod it if you don't like it" is the go to phrase. I mean sure, TFP implement everything the way they want, it's their game after all. But then we might just scrap these forum if none of our opinions matter and the only thing left to do is to mod our games to our tastes. I don't wanna sound salty because I'm not, but I'm just fed up with reading "mod mod mod" whenever a discussion sparks up that doesn't go in line with the "vision" TFP have.

 

Nothing forces them to actually give any explanations regarding anything, but I really, REALLY would love to understand why they think some of the changes in A17 are for the better. Take RWG. How is it fun to always know exactly where which biome is, when the very point of RWG (IN MY OPINION) is to actually roam the map in order to find the biomes you're looking for ? Why is it better to have 1-6 levels on tools/weapons instead of 1-500, and the levels not actually increasing the efficiency of the tool ? Why do I just need to "spend a skillpoint" to craft better tools, instead of getting better in time by crafting/using them ? Why is it better to remove books that added replayability because you wouldn't ever find all the schematics in the same order, and make everything perk-based, which means at some point min-maxing will just result in having a superior strat no matter what ?

 

Like I said, their game, their choices. But I think a lot of the hate is given out of lack of comprehension for the decisions. Guppy & Roland seem to know more about the end-game purpose of those changes, but since we don't, we can't but see the picture for what it is as of today. If the answer is "wait or mod", then having any debates is just a waste of time.

 

I make no claims about knowing the end game, but I've said from the very beginning of my posting on this forum that as the game gets closer to gold, that people will be VERY upset because the rush and thrill of having an opinion stand a chance of affecting the game's design is going to go away as the dev's vision is realized.

 

Let me be clear. I disagree with a LOT of the changes, and have been since they sold their soul to Telltale for the console port. But I've long since accepted it.

 

Also, Kinyajuu (the rwg dev) has come on here and explicitly said he's going to be finishing RWG to it's former glory, and Faatal (another dev) has explained the gun quality change. Although that may have been Prime. Either way, my impression is that the single digit tiers are only something we see, and that legendary weapons will be in the middle? I dunno, it wasn't a subject I cared about so I didn't pay attention. Single digit is fine by me, although I am not a fan of the lack of "quality" on some items.

 

Gun quality was always stupid. A gun fires a bullet, the bullet will have the same damage no matter the quality. Shovels on the other hand, and especially home made items, NEED quality IMO.

 

But back to your point; modding it at this stage REALLY IS the only solution, because there's not a damn thing we can do to change the dev's vision this close to gold.

 

AND, you said it yourself. We don't know about the end-game purpose of these changes... what if A18, or hell, A17r, adds something that brings it all together in a meaningful and wonderful way?

 

It's simply TOO EARLY in a17e's release to be crying (not directed at you). Critiquing, sure, but not crying and doomglooming, as if this is how it's forever going to be.

 

Hell, we've already seen changes from 194 to ... 199? Some considered a "step back", but changes nevertheless.

 

The a17e ride isn't over yet. <shrug>

[OldManBrian]

Rest assured RWG will get back to it's previous glory. I own most of the gameplay systems so I've had to give that more attention. Don't worry, it'll get to a much better spot once I can get around to it. It's not a matter of ability it's a matter of time, try not to get those two things confused guys.

 

Thanks, this is key for me as Nav is good for 1 or 2 playthroughs but RWG is where I play the majority of the time due to how different each playthrough can be because of it.

 

I'm going to stick with a16 for now until this gets revamped (and the dust settles with all the other systems, I'm not liking a lot of the other changes for reasons already posted ad nauseum on these forums).

 

Any idea on an ETA? a17.x or we talking a18?

[Ghostlight]

Rest assured RWG will get back to it's previous glory. I own most of the gameplay systems so I've had to give that more attention. Don't worry, it'll get to a much better spot once I can get around to it. It's not a matter of ability it's a matter of time, try not to get those two things confused guys.

 

While I welcome this post and appreciate you made it, I have to question why fixing RWG isn't very high priority and is something you will "get around to". I personally feel is extremely important that RWG works well, it should be a top priority. The game is just better when played on decent random maps.

[Guppycur]

Oooh, Oooh, I know that one!

 

Because the bug list is still at around 200+, and those are a higher priority than what essentially boils down to a "want".

[pApA^LeGBa]

If everything is better to mod now, can we now have a game not designed to meet veterans needs who have 10000 hours? They can mod in the challenge now even easier.

 

It´s logic also. Who will have a better experience when he needs to mod the game to his likes? A casual with 100 hours or a veteran with 1k+ hours?

 

Ofc the veteran. But on here it is always: Too hard for you because you are casual? mod. well no. To easy for you? How about you mod instead of people who don´t even have time to play as much as some seem to have?

[SnowDog1942]

It's simply TOO EARLY in a17e's release to be crying (not directed at you). Critiquing, sure, but not crying and doomglooming, as if this is how it's forever going to be.

 

I cant see any significant changes happening to RWG over the next few weeks of experimental. We all know these things take time, I have a feeling we will be stuck with these crappy maps for another year. I hope atleast he finds time to make skyscrapers and other nonspawning POI's spawn

[JaxTeller718]

If everything is better to mod now, can we now have a game not designed to meet veterans needs who have 10000 hours? They can mod in the challenge now even easier.

 

It´s logic also. Who will have a better experience when he needs to mod the game to his likes? A casual with 100 hours or a veteran with 1k+ hours?

 

Ofc the veteran. But on here it is always: Too hard for you because you are casual? mod. well no. To easy for you? How about you mod instead of people who don´t even have time to play as much as some seem to have?

 

REALLY hate to disagree here, but this is truly the first Alpha that difficulty was introduced. If anything its time for you casuals to learn how to mod it so its easier. Modders have been doing the heavy lifting for YEARS making the game more challenging. We need a break. Its your turn.

[pApA^LeGBa]

REALLY hate to disagree here, but this is truly the first Alpha that difficulty was introduced. If anything its time for you casuals to learn how to mod it so its easier. Modders have been doing the heavy lifting for YEARS making the game more challenging. We need a break. Its your turn.

 

If casuals had the time to mod and are able to understand the game good enough to make a good and balanced mod, they wouldn´t be casuals. See the logic here?

[Guppycur]

The difficulty slider provides the best of both; I'm really not sure why people are so against choosing an easy level.

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well that depends on how many sliders we will get back at release. Right now it´s just unsatisfying with the sliders. For both sides that is.

 

Still makes no sense to suggest mods to people who are casuals. Vet´s have it way easier to mod it to their likes. That´s simply a fact as the game mechanic is very well known by a veteran.

[Kubikus]

Gazz mentioned some technical unity limitation I don't fully understand... something about no more than 3 terrain textures in the same scene? I dunno, I didn't really understand it, but it was his explanation.

That can't be true, there are often a lot more terrain textures in one place.

 

And of course you can already do that; it's simply temporarily locked out for the normal menu users, anyone with notepad can do it easily, just like in a16.

 

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Lol, hearsay and video proof. I wrote my name in mountains. 4sheetz has the biome painting solved. I'm sorry YOUR attempts have been unsuccessful, but ours haven't.

So in order to make things, that one might consider basic features, work, one has to be either particularly smart or particularly dedicated or particularly well connected with people who are either particularly smart or particularly dedicated?

 

That's not particularly desirable, Guppy. When only a selective few can enjoy, say, the RWG we all could enjoy in A16. Would be much better if, for example, we could, as you said earlier in this thread, just open paint.net and paint the biomes. Or if we had the easy to control biome_spawn_rules that I created my beloved ring world with, in, say, 5 minutes.

 

Which might be one of the reasons why, as Kinyajuu said, the devs will make these things work (again) themselves. Until then - call me a lazy bum - I'd rather actually play the game.

[Guppycur]

I'm thinking that experimental, or hell, early access, just isn't meant for some folks and their "gotta have it all 100% right now or the game sucks and how dare they try new things and put an unfinished product into a beta opt-in oh my god TFP has ruined my life" mentality...

[Kubikus]

I'm thinking that experimental, or hell, early access, just isn't meant for some folks and their "gotta have it all 100% right now or the game sucks and how dare they try new things and put an unfinished product into a beta opt-in oh my god TFP has ruined my life" mentality...

Isn't that actually (kinda) the attitude of those who, instead of actually playing the new release, go straight to modding, and when people provide feedback about issues try to overrule them with "hue hue someone found out how to mod it, so it's not problem"..?

[TSBX]

No, it's not a problem because the guy who does RWG has stated in this very thread that he is going to fix it. Everything else is just hand-wringing and staring nervously at the sky.

[Kubikus]

No, it's not a problem because the guy who does RWG has stated in this very thread that he is going to fix it. Everything else is just hand-wringing and staring nervously at the sky.

The guy didn't say that in post #2, though, so there was a discussion about RWG. Now there is a discussion about the discussion about RWG. Meta.

[TSBX]

Don't live in the past. It's going to be fixed, so further elaborating on why current RWG is broken is a moot point.

[Kubikus]

Don't live in the past. It's going to be fixed, so further elaborating on why current RWG is broken is a moot point.

That's why I'm not talking about it. I'm talking about talking about it. And so are you.

 

Actually talking about it is, however, perfectly fine, at least up to the point where you get developer feedback. Isn't it? Should we not talk about RWG and it's flaws, because there's a rumour floating around that someone might have fixed something?

[Guppycur]

Isn't that actually (kinda) the attitude of those who, instead of actually playing the new release, go straight to modding, and when people provide feedback about issues try to overrule them with "hue hue someone found out how to mod it, so it's not problem"..?

 

I wouldn't know, because I did both.

 

My server is completely vanilla. We chose to do so, so we can decide WHAT to mod.

 

...but that hasn't stopped me from modding.