New perk system

[Brian9824]

Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.

 

If I stuff your backpack with 20 items and then stack an empty can on top you can carry that can. If your not careful that can will fall out though as it's not secure.

 

Sounds realistic to me. When my kids load me up with stuffed animals and toys to carry it's not the weight that's the issue,it's holding it all

[JCrook1028]

Oh.. you mean it has nothing to do with the actual weight of what you're carrying? So if I understand correctly, you could be carrying 10,000 stone, 6 augers, a pair of tires, 500 barrels of gas, but when you pick up that empty can you're magically going to start slowing down? Real immersive that is.

 

What I meant was is it seems the system will work for gameplay. The "reality" aspect of it doesn't matter so much to me, only how it plays out in game.

[Damocles]

Crafting - Simple diminishing returns, either with time or recipe-specific (or both) to solve the spam crafting problem. Besides, that's the most realistic thing of all, since the same happens in real life.

 

Armor - It would be extremely easy to make it so that you can get skill points on armor only from enemy hits.

 

Weapons - You don't really have to count hits to only enemies that can attack you, because you can't exactly farm- enemies without loses/risk (ammo, base damage etc), except if you use "exploits" - in that case exploits have to be eliminated for even more important reasons.

 

Athletics - It's also easy to make it so that you have to run a certain distance before the athletics skill starts getting increased - jump skill increase can be removed or also have diminishing returns.

 

Sneaking - Haven't heard of anyone training sneaking this way, but it could be that one should need a clear straight line from the player to the enemy in order for a skill increase to happen.

 

Yes, basically its possible. But likely requires to fix potential exploits in the future then. (when players can pinpoint the exact mechanics points are handed over)

For example, players could trap enemies and hit them with a very low damage weapon. Or sneak around them repeadidly, or let themself get it, while healing up constantly.

 

But allowing to level up with repeatedly crafting the same thing should not be impossibel to fix. The game would then only assign a certain number of points to crafting a specific recipe-type, based on an average number of those items usually required per day - for consumer items. (to be determined by taking some statistics from normal gamesessions)

And a limited points-pool for typical leveled items (the stone axe or basic club would not be used, and thus not needed to be crafted more than a few days).

 

 

But overall, I think ability-progression should come more from the items and resources and locations to be discovered and harvested, instead of XP based assignment.

(The player building up an economy and capital such as workstations, farms and vehicles)

[Damocles]

Encumbrance just serves to make the game more tedious.

 

People want more content (new and multi-seat vehicles, flight, bandits, rare/unique items, a proper storyline, expanded and integrated quest system, npc's, specialized zombies, fixes to the sleeper mechanics/stealth/distractions/sound, server management/admin tools, etc). Why are you showcasing a hot new perk for inventory management!?

 

Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.

 

Encumbrance is needed to limit the amount players can haul around and loot.

The game has potentially unlimited loot-resources (within the dimension of a game session)

If you look at other games, such as Empyrion that allow moving around huge amount of stuff (in the vehicles) without any real restrictions,

you will notice that the game quickly blows out of proportion asset wise. Apart from the beginning, there is no challenge in having resources.

 

Its also not fun to play if there are no resource limits. Finding stuff is less rewarding then, and you just play like a vacuum cleaner.

 

Its also harder to balance the game if players could have basically anything in unresticted amounts.

With an inventory limit, you can estimate an upper limit players will have within what time. So that stage of the game can be balanaced to still be challenging.

[warmer]

I personally think this system is much more realistic. Especially the gating of crafting. The older system required you to spread your points across so many individual disciplines for VERY specific things, and now things are grouped together is a much more logical and streamlined fashion.

 

I think the resistance I am reading about has more to do with people not liking change, than a genuine objective analysis of the changes and how the change will influence gameplay and leveling decisions.

 

The changes make 7D2D more like an old school RPG class system which is much more realistic and influential on gameplay styles. This is a welcome change in my opinion. The old system felt like a bunch of disparate parts. Your character was a Frankenstein set of skills, where as now your stats themselves help flesh you out in big ways.

[Damocles]

I personally think this system is much more realistic. Especially the gating of crafting. The older system required you to spread your points across so many individual disciplines for VERY specific things, and now things are grouped together is a much more logical and streamlined fashion.

 

I think the resistance I am reading about has more to do with people not liking change, than a genuine objective analysis of the changes and how the change will influence gameplay and leveling decisions.

 

The changes make 7D2D more like an old school RPG class system which is much more realistic and influential on gameplay styles. This is a welcome change in my opinion. The old system felt like a bunch of disparate parts. Your character was a Frankenstein set of skills, where as now your stats themselves help flesh you out in big ways.

 

Its also the most boring and often implemented approach:

 

You split the abilities and traits of the character into sections and subsections.

(whatever mechanics the game has: moving, fighting, crafting, holding, building, healing, finding things)

Then you let the player improve each section with xp gathered while playing the game, to improve its "power" and unlock gates to non essential but useful abilities.

 

It works, but is also not anything standing out.

[meganoth]

Its also the most boring and often implemented approach:

 

You split the abilities and traits of the character into sections and subsections.

(whatever mechanics the game has: moving, fighting, crafting, holding, building, healing, finding things)

Then you let the player improve each section with xp gathered while playing the game, to improve its "power" and unlock gates to non essential but useful abilities.

 

It works, but is also not anything standing out.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't learning-by-doing used by practically all Bethesda games and many other open-world games? How would 7D2D stand out?

 

Or are you only refering to the grouping into attributes-based perks?

[Damocles]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't learning-by-doing used by practically all Bethesda games and many other open-world games? How would 7D2D stand out?

 

Or are you only refering to the grouping into attributes-based perks?

 

Im not a big fan for Skill-leveling in Sandbox games in general. (I would rather unlock abilities and progress in the game by gaining access to things, not make the character suddenly jump higher and eat bigger ... because reasons)

 

In Betheshda games the progression is a mix of "improve what you do" and the old Fallout 1 (SPECIAL) perk system.

It works reasonable well. And it really lets the player play a role, as going into a branch lets the player really concentrate on a certain way how to play the game. It REWARDS the player by playing an imagined character, like a rough assassin, or a crazy battle-mage.

 

But from what I see with the new 7dtd system, its basically just about unlocking gates. Like the vehicles. Everyone wants to have the good vehicles, there not much roleplaying or choice. Just a a stage of having unlocked more or less gates yet.

Other perks will then be left aside, as they compete with the more essential perks. (having a jeep, a forge or hauling more stuff beats having some granddads sauce..)

The player will eventually unlock those things too. But then they are way less relevant.

 

Betheshda games reward the STYLE you play the game (Skyrim especially). Not just have different lengths of how long it takes to unlock essential things.

[Poojam]

I personally think this system is much more realistic. Especially the gating of crafting. The older system required you to spread your points across so many individual disciplines for VERY specific things, and now things are grouped together is a much more logical and streamlined fashion.

 

I think the resistance I am reading about has more to do with people not liking change, than a genuine objective analysis of the changes and how the change will influence gameplay and leveling decisions.

 

The changes make 7D2D more like an old school RPG class system which is much more realistic and influential on gameplay styles. This is a welcome change in my opinion. The old system felt like a bunch of disparate parts. Your character was a Frankenstein set of skills, where as now your stats themselves help flesh you out in big ways.

 

That's the thing. It wasn't supposed to be an RPG.

[JCrook1028]

People want more content (new and multi-seat vehicles, flight, bandits, rare/unique items, a proper storyline, expanded and integrated quest system, npc's, specialized zombies, fixes to the sleeper mechanics/stealth/distractions/sound, server management/admin tools, etc). Why are you showcasing a hot new perk for inventory management!?

 

Encumbrance is a mechanic that is a symptom of a poorly implemented RPG. It's about the story, and not about the specific RPG elements.

 

new and multi-seat vehicles - done, 3 new vehicles in A17 tho the multi passenger aspect is turned off in the xml til they get it working, may be later in A17 or may be A18.

 

flight - done - gyrocopter is in.

 

rare/unique items - done - legendary items are in for A17.

 

expanded and integrated quest system - done - all new quest system in A17.

 

fixes to the sleeper mechanics - done - faatal has already stated that's been fixed for A17.

 

Seems about half your list is already IN A17 yet you discount all of that? I'm confused.

[Poojam]

new and multi-seat vehicles - done, 3 new vehicles in A17 tho the multi passenger aspect is turned off in the xml til they get it working, may be later in A17 or may be A18.

 

flight - done - gyrocopter is in.

 

rare/unique items - done - legendary items are in for A17.

 

expanded and integrated quest system - done - all new quest system in A17.

 

fixes to the sleeper mechanics - done - faatal has already stated that's been fixed for A17.

 

Seems about half your list is already IN A17 yet you discount all of that? I'm confused.

 

Are they though? Can you show me a video where these things are showcased?

 

I've only seen talk.

[warmer]

That's the thing. It wasn't supposed to be an RPG.

 

Maybe you should mention that to the fun pimps because it clearly states it is on the home page of 7daystodie.com

 

"Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. "

 

If you want to shoehorn in your style of play, there are mods for that, but TFP have been pretty clear from the beginning that their intent was to make a game as immersive as possible. The best way to accomplish immersion that is through character development where choices matter and you can affect the world around you.

 

Essentially, "THE" essence of a sandbox RPG.

 

*drops mic*

[JaxTeller718]

Maybe you should mention that to the fun pimps because it clearly states it is on the home page of 7daystodie.com

 

"Play the definitive zombie survival sandbox RPG that came first. "

 

If you want to shoehorn in your style of play, there are mods for that, but TFP have been pretty clear from the beginning that their intent was to make a game as immersive as possible. The best way to accomplish immersion that is through character development where choices matter and you can affect the world around you.

 

Essentially, "THE" essence of a sandbox RPG.

 

*drops mic*

 

Don't drop that mic too fast. Immersive and this current attribute/perk system could not be more contradictory.

 

Im looking forward to trying it, I think a lot of work has gone into it and I think it will be ages better than what 16 had in its progression system but don't for one minute think that going out to kill zombies, acquiring a phantom point that you can place in a perk that allows you to harvest 3 corn is immersive. It is anything BUT that.

 

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

 

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

 

When your core mechanic is as simple as stand in one spot, pull out your gun and move in a circle shooting zombies over and over and doing so will allow you to open up more backpack space, better health food, healing items, better accuracy, quicker looting and a host of other options I don't think you can claim it as immersive and challenging.

 

*drops mic*

[OzHawkeye]

Don't drop that mic too fast. Immersive and this current attribute/perk system could not be more contradictory.

 

Im looking forward to trying it, I think a lot of work has gone into it and I think it will be ages better than what 16 had in its progression system but don't for one minute think that going out to kill zombies, acquiring a phantom point that you can place in a perk that allows you to harvest 3 corn is immersive. It is anything BUT that.

 

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

 

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

 

When your core mechanic is as simple as stand in one spot, pull out your gun and move in a circle shooting zombies over and over and doing so will allow you to open up more backpack space, better health food, healing items, better accuracy, quicker looting and a host of other options I don't think you can claim it as immersive and challenging.

 

*drops mic*

 

I think that's taking a somewhat rose coloured glass view of previous systems. For example, the "craft to learn" system, was perhaps more realistic, but crafting hundreds of stone axes wasn't particularly immersive either.

 

The problem is immersion is a subjective term. It is, as far as I can see, really dependent on whether you consider the activity you're immersing yourself in fun or not.

 

I do like the idea of learn through use, but often I've seen the implementation of it fall a little flat. So, I just look at mechanics now through a single viewpoint: Is it fun?

[Pille]

The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

 

But that's effectively what they are moving AWAy from in the base game. Especially with ridiculous perks like "buy 5 of me and you won't be stunned any longer". How is that NOT immersion breaking? How does that even MAKE SENSE?

 

Because immersion has a subjective component and your formula 'closer to our reality = more immersive' is not always valid (at least that's how I interpret the first sentence in the quote above).

[Gazz]

If you pick it apart it's borderline laughable, even if it does add more to do in the game. The most immersive system would reward you by USING the weapon or action that you want to improve, like in real life. Want to farm better? Farm more. Want to aim better? Use your pistol more.

This is a game, not a day job simulator.

The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

 

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.

[JaxTeller718]

This is a game, not a day job simulator.

The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

 

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.

 

And I agree, again I think its being overlooked that BOTH systems could have been combined to provide a more robust and complex system for an rpg game.

 

Hell no to spam crafting, but also hell no to being able to become immune to stun BECAUSE i'm killing zombies with that very same club you used as an example, or farming better. How is clicking a button 3000 times to get better using it and clicking a button 3000 times to grow better crops any different from each other?

 

I know the "rules" aspect of playing this game is swinging towards unfavorable now a days, but on the surface this new system provides a LOT of room for spam levelling to perks that the player never really earned in the first place. For example Im great with a gun, but bad with melee. So I mine a LOT. If levelling from mining is still a thing then I use those points to get better killing zombies without ever having to killa zombie. Now I use that increase to easily kill mass zeds, and thusly turn around and dump those points into health and pill resistance.

 

Is that the kind of immersion you guys are reaching to achieve? Because I agree I dont want spam ANYTHING. Hell getting 5 headshots in a row with a pistol should increase your accuracy a point (maybe that IS a thing now) and I don't think people would push back against those being unfair rules to improving accuracy.

 

You guys went out of your way to make this system so huge and important, it would be a shame to see it fall apart over time because you want to maintain the sandboxiness of it all at the expense of a logical and well done well rounded rpg build system.

 

So let me ask this, and the answer will basically tell me what I need to know about "immersion". Do you still gain points passively in things like Athletics or Scavenging as you loot (i know they are called different things now) or is it just straight up the ONLY way to level and gain SP is through JUST killing zombies?

[Doombringer101]

No discreet skills therefore no passive points as far as I can see.

It's Attributes and Perks.

XP was outlined by Roland by memory and was the usual list of active gameplay actions eg. Mining, tree chopping, killing etc.

So yes there are sources of XP outside of zombie killing but no hard details that I am aware of in terms of how many XP for activity x vs y.

[Gazz]

Hell no to spam crafting, but also hell no to being able to become immune to stun BECAUSE i'm killing zombies with that very same club you used as an example, or farming better. How is clicking a button 3000 times to get better using it and clicking a button 3000 times to grow better crops any different from each other?

You are describing skill grinding (clubs, crafting, whatever) twice there so of course there is no difference.

The key to skill grinding is that you use one skill ad nauseam to improve that one skill. That is when the game becomes a job that you're not even getting paid for.

 

What is different is a system that allows you to play the game your way and have actual choice in your character progression.

You're playing a role because you want to, not because the game tells you who you are allowed to be.

You will need general progress in the game to gain skill points but that is pretty much expected in games. The game does not care how you acquire these points nor dictate what you do with them.

 

You appear to be complaining about rules when the game is very much hands-off when it comes to your character progression.

 

The immersion that I see is in playing the game, not performing one specific menial task over and over. Look up from that recipe list and have a look around you. Go outside, maybe even to the other side of that hill over there.

I'm not even sure what you want there. You are damning skill grinding to hell only to praise it as the one true system of advancement. =)

 

Maybe this system is not ideal for OCPD minmaxers because it misses the boring-activity-gate for advancement that gives these people a unique advantage over players who only want to play a game and have fun. It must be terrifying that some normal person can play the game and be successful without risking carpal tunnel from crafting stone shovels.

Personally I am an OCPD minmaxer type. I can walk the walk, grind the skills. As a designer, though, I can not justify this kind of punishment becoming part of a "game".

[toores]

This is a game, not a day job simulator.

The immersion is in playing the game and doing what you want to do, being who you want to be, not performing the actions that your boss, the game, orders you to.

 

The game puts a problem in front of you, like the 7 day horde. How you solve that is up to you. Having to hit the ground 8000 times with a wooden club or crafting 3000 stone shovels is mind-numbing busy-work, not part of the solution.

 

With the new buff system you could require hitting zombies/players/animals for the skill to increase though...

 

As much as I'm waiting to try out the new perk system, I'm also skeptical. The new system looks so arcady. Do anything and just pick the stuff you want to advance.

I'm still thinking the skill & perk system is better and makes way more sense. There should be just some adjustments made.

[toores]

The key to skill grinding is that you use one skill ad nauseam to improve that one skill. That is when the game becomes a job that you're not even getting paid for.

If you eliminate shortcuts (spam crafting), you get paid exactly for the stuff you practice.

 

What is different is a system that allows you to play the game your way and have actual choice in your character progression.

You're playing a role because you want to, not because the game tells you who you are allowed to be.

You will need general progress in the game to gain skill points but that is pretty much expected in games. The game does not care how you acquire these points nor dictate what you do with them.

 

You could do the same thing with skills & perks.

Have skills that advance when using them and that you can't put points into. Remove random skill point that can go to any category. Have perks open up that are specific to this skill tree when skill is advanced. Make the skills different enough that your character would feel different and let the player only choose some of them. Or even make skills that exclude each other.

[RestInPieces]

That's the thing. It wasn't supposed to be an RPG.

 

People do seem to be forgetting the survival part of the game nowadays.

 

The key to skill grinding is that you use one skill ad nauseam to improve that one skill. That is when the game becomes a job that you're not even getting paid for.

 

I was never in favor of skill grinding hell, but wouldn't diminishing returns just eliminate that problem? For example a recipe could have diminishing returns depending on current skill level, times the recipe has been used or consecutive uses in a period of time.

 

More importantly:

So let me ask this, and the answer will basically tell me what I need to know about "immersion". Do you still gain points passively in things like Athletics or Scavenging as you loot (i know they are called different things now) or is it just straight up the ONLY way to level and gain SP is through JUST killing zombies?

 

Personally I wish that zombie xp is completely gone, for the same reasons you hate crafting grinding and more. What is the case in A17 Gazz?

 

 

If you want to make this system more immersive in the future without changing it again, you could still make it so that you gain attribute-specific xp and perk points by separating activities into groups, each group awarding one or two attribute-specific xp kinds. Would make even more "sense", immersion-wise, than what we had before.

[toores]

The thing I really don't like about the new skill system is that it's disconnected from the world.

You could delete half the perks and make me interact with the world to get the same results.

 

You just assign perks as you like but I'd much rather:

*find armor and wear it to become efficient

*feed myself well to get better immunity

*find well-insulated clothing in the world instead of perking out of ever needing clothing at all

*wear less armor to be more sneaky

*advance to chemistry station to craft better medical supplies

*find/craft items that I can use on the campfire to make better foods

*find a bigger backpack to gain more unencumbered slots (and use the perk to decrease the penalty - because one row of slots that you could not free up would make the game more interesting)

*craft compost (station) and use fertilizer for better crop harvest

 

These are some random examples but the general feeling I get is that some of the gameplay has replaced by perk tables.

[Pille]

As much as I'm waiting to try out the new perk system, I'm also skeptical. The new system looks so arcady. Do anything and just pick the stuff you want to advance.

 

It's an old classic system which is used by a lot of the most successful RPGs of all time. Why is this arcady?

[RestInPieces]

It's an old classic system which is used by a lot of the most successful RPGs of all time. Why is this arcady?

 

People do seem to be forgetting the survival part of the game nowadays.

 

Yeah...