For developers, please read very important about POIs

[eganonstwr]

I dont know why you cant do so, dont wanna know BUT i see people cleaning the poi before taking the quest, so they double loot double xp from zombies, please do something about this, its kinda non-professional, you know what you can do ? you can make all pois indestructible, so players cant @%$# them up, its better than double looting same place. Or you can just remove the quest if Poi is cleared already. Yes its a great idea, if poi is cleared then you can just iinstantly have done the quest and receive the the reward. For multiplayer game think something else, for multiplayer develop other systems, everything is acceptable except 100 times rebuilding poi for each player. Afterall this is survival and resources must be limited, you had an excellent skill system back in the day when we could lvl up just from crafting things, you can polish that system the way that players wont just craft stone axe 1000 times to lvl up their skills but. And its good to be short in resources in multiplayer, so people can more naturally trade, trading will be the main part in multiplayer and so on. or think something better than what ive said but keep in mind scarcity of resources and not poi problem. So basically im also asking to make 2 separate gameplays for single and multiplayer, and you can also raise the price of the game

Edited October 11, 2023 by eganonstwr (see edit history)

[Jugginator]

Unfortunately, and maybe we can come up with something in the future, there isn't a foreseeable way to rectify this. If you couldn't touch any POI's while not on a quest for it, it would ruin exploration for everyone and the game would only be questing. Removing a quest from a POI that's been done and calling that POI "forever-done", it would severely limit any new-players to a P2P or server game (also replayability for singleplayer). And really if you think about it, you're actually clearing that POI two times, doing the work killing the zombies and whatnot, so it's not really getting anything for free, the only advantage is saving a tiny bit of time going to another poi. It's good thinking and criticism indeed, just pointing out that we have discussed this a ton internally

[Morloc]

What if these POIs only had the basic loot, and a standard population of mobs until you activated a quest there.

Only then would the POI be repaired and the extra baddies and big chests spawn.
In SP, if you log out the POI reverts to the basic version, and you fail the quest.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[Vaeliorin]

1 hour ago, Morloc said:

What if these POIs only had the basic loot, and a standard population of mobs until you activated a quest there.

Only then would the POI be repaired and the extra baddies and big chests spawn.
In SP, if you log out the POI reverts to the basic version, and you fail the quest.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

That would make doing non-quest POIs absolutely pointless.  Not everyone wants to spend all their time questing.

[Roland]

I don't think this is a problem that needs to be solved since it is very easy to just not double loot if you believe it is an exploit.

 

If I were to suggest a fix to this it would be that instead of the quest displaying the POI name and direction, simply have it give the distance away and then instead of the rally marker being in front of the POI, have it be about 100m away from the POI in front of an NPC who will then lead you to the POI after the rally marker has been activated. Now you don't know exactly which POI is going to be the quest POI and by time you get to it by following the NPC it has already been reset for the quest.

 

Double dipping -- fixed

Seeing the POI reset in front of your eyes  -- fixed

Immersion issues with a bobbing exclamation mark -- fixed

 

One of the NPC guides could even be named Trolland and he would arbitrarily lead you to the wrong place...

[Ramethzer0]

Some people don't like double looting.

Some people do.

 

I prefer to think that If I am going to do the work of looting a POI, then its location and its potential for being a quest location is not a consideration for me.   I also would caution you to remember that looting in the wild is perfectly logical and worthwhile, and that the loot can still be RNG no matter what.   The fact that the same POI in the same location is not objectionable to me, considering if the same POI were across the street, and the same on the other is the quest POI, then the only difference is that one offers a trader reward and the other does not.  

 

Again, and I can't stress this enough - try not to go out on a limb and suggest changes that are universal when there's plenty of people that are just as happy to leave things alone.  You can have an opinion about something, but don't go forcing a consequence on others because of that opinion.  Based upon your posting history, I don't think you've realized yet how rude that is.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[meganoth]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

One of the NPC guides could even be named Trolland and he would arbitrarily lead you to the wrong place...

 

I sooo much want to have this in the game. Sadly the red dots or the fetch quest marker will give it away too early.

 

8 minutes ago, Ramethzer0 said:

Some people don't like double looting.

Some people do.

 

I prefer to think that If I am going to do the work of looting a POI, then its location and its potential for being a quest location is not a consideration for me.   I also would caution you to remember that looting in the wild is perfectly logical and worthwhile, and that the loot can still be RNG no matter what.   The fact that the same POI in the same location is not objectionable to me, considering if the same POI were across the street, and the same on the other is the quest POI, then the only difference is that one offers a trader reward and the other does not.  

 

Again, and I can't stress this enough - try not to go out on a limb and suggest changes that are universal when there's plenty of people that are just as happy to leave things alone.  You can have an opinion about something, but don't go forcing a consequence on others because of that opinion.  Based upon your posting history, I don't think you've realized yet how rude that is.

 

 

Practically any meaningful suggestion is forcing a concequence on others. And it isn't the first time this suggestion was made without being considered rude.

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Ramethzer0]

8 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Practically any meaningful suggestion is forcing a concequence on others. And it isn't the first time this suggestion was made without being considered rude.

 

I can agree with the spirit of what you put forth.  I did not read the OP and see any specific language about it being a suggestion.  I read it as a very specific consequence to behaviour that the OP found objectionable.   These things do not look the same to me.

[Roland]

What it really comes down to here is the design philosophy of the developers. Are they creating a challenge/puzzle than they want solved a particular way and so want to work to remove any alternate solutions or exploits that seem to negate their challenge or are they creating an experience that players can choose to handle however they want and there is no single solution that must be figured out.

 

These developers are usually fine with there being multiple ways to play and don't seem overly concerned that players are finding alternate strategies to what they intended. Despite a couple of youtubers claiming otherwise the developers have never sat in diabolical council stroking their beards and laughing maniacally as they review player strategies and then come up with ways to thwart them. In almost every case where player strategies were stopped, it was simply the byproduct of the developers fixing an aspect of the game that wasn't working properly and was not a change with the intention of battling player strategies or changing the meta for the sake of changing the meta.

 

So in the case of double-dipping POIs by using the quest rally point strategically, the developers don't consider it an exploit and they don't see it as bypassing some kind of challenge or puzzle they have created for the players and are perfectly happy leaving it up to player choice to do it or not. Therefore, their motivation to change it is extremely low.

 

Just don't do it if you think it is an exploit. The only situation in which you might be forced to do it is if you are playing competitively against others on a PvP server and any strategy to advance more quickly than your opponents would be imperative. But if you are playing co-op or solo then there is no need. You don't need to double-dip to stay ahead of the gamestage curve or to survive in general. By doing it, it simply means you'll progress to the point where you decide the world is done and you're ready to start over a few hours faster than otherwise.. <shrug>

 

Personally, I appreciate being able to loot around in the POI while waiting for the rest of the team to arrive so we can start.

[avalonnn]

I like looting before starting the quest. I'm starting to list top tier POIs for specific loot, such as Navezgane Hospital for cloth, some lower POIs for cars, many places for inactive drink machines. I particularly like getting forged iron and forged steel from items that will then respawn.

[Morloc]

6 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

That would make doing non-quest POIs absolutely pointless. 

 

Most of my 7D2D time was spent playing without every ice cream shack and bookstore sporting a jumbo-chest room. I never felt like it was pointless.

For the record, I usually double-dip. I was just suggesting an alternative.

 

 

-Arch Necromancer Morloc 💀

[YourMirror]

Pimp Dream

[Old Crow]

12 hours ago, eganonstwr said:

I dont know why you cant do so, dont wanna know BUT i see people cleaning the poi before taking the quest, so they double loot double xp from zombies, please do something about this, its kinda non-professional, you know what you can do ? you can make all pois indestructible, so players cant @%$# them up, its better than double looting same place. Or you can just remove the quest if Poi is cleared already. Yes its a great idea, if poi is cleared then you can just iinstantly have done the quest and receive the the reward. For multiplayer game think something else, for multiplayer develop other systems, everything is acceptable except 100 times rebuilding poi for each player. Afterall this is survival and resources must be limited, you had an excellent skill system back in the day when we could lvl up just from crafting things, you can polish that system the way that players wont just craft stone axe 1000 times to lvl up their skills but. And its good to be short in resources in multiplayer, so people can more naturally trade, trading will be the main part in multiplayer and so on. or think something better than what ive said but keep in mind scarcity of resources and not poi problem. So basically im also asking to make 2 separate gameplays for single and multiplayer, and you can also raise the price of the game

 

I didn't realize this was the D&D posters on Twitter trying to force their way of playing the game onto others...

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

What it really comes down to here is the design philosophy of the developers. Are they creating a challenge/puzzle than they want solved a particular way and so want to work to remove any alternate solutions or exploits that seem to negate their challenge or are they creating an experience that players can choose to handle however they want and there is no single solution that must be figured out.

 

These developers are usually fine with there being multiple ways to play and don't seem overly concerned that players are finding alternate strategies to what they intended. Despite a couple of youtubers claiming otherwise the developers have never sat in diabolical council stroking their beards and laughing maniacally as they review player strategies and then come up with ways to thwart them. In almost every case where player strategies were stopped, it was simply the byproduct of the developers fixing an aspect of the game that wasn't working properly and was not a change with the intention of battling player strategies or changing the meta for the sake of changing the meta.

 

So in the case of double-dipping POIs by using the quest rally point strategically, the developers don't consider it an exploit and they don't see it as bypassing some kind of challenge or puzzle they have created for the players and are perfectly happy leaving it up to player choice to do it or not. Therefore, their motivation to change it is extremely low.

 

Just don't do it if you think it is an exploit. The only situation in which you might be forced to do it is if you are playing competitively against others on a PvP server and any strategy to advance more quickly than your opponents would be imperative. But if you are playing co-op or solo then there is no need. You don't need to double-dip to stay ahead of the gamestage curve or to survive in general. By doing it, it simply means you'll progress to the point where you decide the world is done and you're ready to start over a few hours faster than otherwise.. <shrug>

 

Personally, I appreciate being able to loot around in the POI while waiting for the rest of the team to arrive so we can start.

 

Ironically double-dipping is probably not the best strategy for fast advancement anyway.

 

Because trader rewards are on par or even better than whatever you can scrounge out of the POI and you want the higher tier-completion rewards as fast as possible, it is much better to fetch another quest in the time you would be double-dipping.

 

[binf_shinana]

Double dipping may seem to be efficient at first glance, but its actual efficiency is poor.
If you can complete 1.5 quests in that time rather than double-dipping once, your quest tier will rise faster and you'll get better rewards.

[ZehMatt]

It's one of those weak designs in the game that I also dislike, ideally the loot already sits there and all the zombies protecting it, whatever item is there could be marked a quest item like many other games do and getting the quest by the trader should allow instant completion which makes the entire thing more believable, this also eliminates duplicate quests in the same POI, a single POI could have multiple things to do, breaking the entire POI should take it off the pool if that makes it impossible to complete. Seeing the entire POI just getting refurbished is quite immersion breaking also in my opinion. Once bandits are in the game they could take over POIs which would explain how POIs are suddenly becoming refurbished and have quests to steal items from them. The floating quest activation marker is also just weird. Given that there is no real end-game I would think that once players looted everything and have done everything that is just the end of it and they can start a new game on a new generated map, there is really no point in sitting on the same map forever, at some point you are just done. Having this all well balanced would give a better feel of progression, at some point there is just nothing to be done and you basically completed the map, this of course would take more effort. Anyway this is as usual just my opinion on what makes a game better.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

Ironically double-dipping is probably not the best strategy for fast advancement anyway.

 

Because trader rewards are on par or even better than whatever you can scrounge out of the POI and you want the higher tier-completion rewards as fast as possible, it is much better to fetch another quest in the time you would be double-dipping.

 

 

I'm assuming that by double-dipping what people are really talking about is going straight to the treasure room and grabbing everything and then starting the quest rather than cleaning out the entire POI before starting the quest. The second would definitely be less efficient but the first could arguably be worthwhile, especially for magazine and weapon parts gathering and particularly if you're already intimately familiar with the POI and so know exactly how to quickly get to the loot room.

 

15 hours ago, meganoth said:

I sooo much want to have this in the game. Sadly the red dots or the fetch quest marker will give it away too early.

 

Oh, there would be red dots or a fetch quest marker but they would lead you to landmines for you to try to harvest with your wrench.

[binf_shinana]

13 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'm assuming that by double-dipping what people are really talking about is going straight to the treasure room and grabbing everything and then starting the quest rather than cleaning out the entire POI before starting the quest. The second would definitely be less efficient but the first could arguably be worthwhile, especially for magazine and weapon parts gathering and particularly if you're already intimately familiar with the POI and so know exactly how to quickly get to the loot room.

I was also short-minded when it came to this, but it's true that if a bookstore is targeted, it may be looted twice. (Other than that, the efficiency is not so good on the A21, but it is true that it was efficient before the A20)

 

Considering multiplayer, I don't think the developers have the option of not reinstating POI.

[pApA^LeGBa]

22 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't think this is a problem that needs to be solved since it is very easy to just not double loot if you believe it is an exploit.

 

If I were to suggest a fix to this it would be that instead of the quest displaying the POI name and direction, simply have it give the distance away and then instead of the rally marker being in front of the POI, have it be about 100m away from the POI in front of an NPC who will then lead you to the POI after the rally marker has been activated. Now you don't know exactly which POI is going to be the quest POI and by time you get to it by following the NPC it has already been reset for the quest.

 

Double dipping -- fixed

Seeing the POI reset in front of your eyes  -- fixed

Immersion issues with a bobbing exclamation mark -- fixed

 

One of the NPC guides could even be named Trolland and he would arbitrarily lead you to the wrong place...

 

It´s a problem on public servers. And some people often clean them out entirely. And by that i not only mean loot everything, but also wrench everything. And when i say that i literally mean everything.

 

But the NPC idea is nice. I like it. For T5 and T6 it´s easy to guess wich one it´s gonna be though as they usually aren´t near to each other. And yes, people even double dip those. Even though roof main loot isn´t a thing anymore, the main loots are still reachable pretty fast if you know where they are. Wich isn´t hard as there is not a ton of T5 POI´s.

[Roland]

7 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

It´s a problem on public servers. And some people often clean them out entirely. And by that i not only mean loot everything, but also wrench everything. And when i say that i literally mean everything.

 

Okay but if they are going to that much effort and time to get basic resources by completely stripping a POI before starting their quest during which they will completely strip it again all for basic resources, I don't see the problem. That isn't any more of an exploit than completely stripping two POIs that are next door to each other. They are putting in the time and effort both times and the rewards are mostly basic component materials. The only issue I see is getting double treasure room loot in a very short period of time but there are other rushing tactics that are more effective as has been mentioned.

[RipClaw]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

Ironically double-dipping is probably not the best strategy for fast advancement anyway.

Depends on the POI. If it is a POI with many bookshelves, double dipping may be worthwhile. Especially if it is a T2 or T3 Crack a Book. But there are also some residential POIs where double dipping is worthwhile if you know where the bookshelves are and how to get there quickly.

[Callum123456789]

I agree with the above we have a choice not to double loot it's making a problem out of something that is optional and is up to the player and I would say player choice is important about how they go with things.

 

[pApA^LeGBa]

@Callum123456789 @Roland Well let´s take T4´s on public servers. There is towns and cities that don´t have a whole lot of T4´s. If you just traveleld there from the trader, just to see that someone is already in the POI you gotta either wait or go back to the trader and get another one. It´s hard to tell if people are on their first run into the POI or not. And no you can´t just simply start your quest, that´s usually a rule on servers that you don´t start quests when someone is inside, also some do place a bedroll while looting.

 

I don´t know how often that happens, but in my few attempts on public servers i had it  happen a few times. Guess it entirely depends on the map. If there is a lot of cities and towns it´s unlikely i guess.

 

Still would like to see the NPC idea. It would make the world a tiny bit more lively. And this game desperatly needs that. Just yesterday went trough a town and didn´t see a single zombie. In SP.

[Callum123456789]

The other issue you had may be something bugging out with the respawn delay I haven't had that yet but that's my main reason why I don't play populated dedicated servers as its something I don't want to deal with I don't really think it's something that can be dealt with easily unless they change things up with that quite a lot like sending the player to the next tier 4 that's available like you said (but has to be a city/town as countrytowns only have like 2 or 3 I think) and cities have much more higher tier ones.

 

[meganoth]

30 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Callum123456789 @Roland Well let´s take T4´s on public servers. There is towns and cities that don´t have a whole lot of T4´s. If you just traveleld there from the trader, just to see that someone is already in the POI you gotta either wait or go back to the trader and get another one. It´s hard to tell if people are on their first run into the POI or not. And no you can´t just simply start your quest, that´s usually a rule on servers that you don´t start quests when someone is inside, also some do place a bedroll while looting.

 

I don´t know how often that happens, but in my few attempts on public servers i had it  happen a few times. Guess it entirely depends on the map. If there is a lot of cities and towns it´s unlikely i guess.

 

Still would like to see the NPC idea. It would make the world a tiny bit more lively. And this game desperatly needs that. Just yesterday went trough a town and didn´t see a single zombie. In SP.

 

You can only double-dip once, after that the building has only loot after you started a quest. On public servers all seldom to find tier buildings would have been already looted a short time after server start or a region reset. So most likely the player preventing you starting the quest was on a quest himself. Prevention of double dipping would most likely not solve the actual problem that there are too few T4 buildings on that map for the number of players on that server.

 

And the best solution would be for the server operator to provide a map with more T4 buildings if those are the most popular buildings. Or allow less players concurrently so they don't step on each others toes too much