Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[BFT2020]

17 hours ago, Krougal said:

You sir, are a masochist.

 

That does not make me a masochist.

 

Now, removing the ability to repair weapons, tools, armor........  😁

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth show me one sucessfull RPG where skills are influenced by RNG. It shouldn´t be randomized what i can learn because as mentioned already, it´s not a fun way to play and it makes absolutly no sense at all. I don´t need more arguments. That´s it.

[meganoth]

26 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@meganoth show me one sucessfull RPG where skills are influenced by RNG. It shouldn´t be randomized what i can learn because as mentioned already, it´s not a fun way to play and it makes absolutly no sense at all. I don´t need more arguments. That´s it.

 

I have a big problem there. I have a huge pile of shame but have played only very few games in the last >10 years because I got stuck with a few games with huge replayability, mainly Factorio, 7Days2Die, FTL, Slay the Spire and Monster Train (and I have to confess WoW). Not much else.

 

The other problem is that I forget fast. For example I played Outer Worlds some time ago, but I don't remember anymore how crafting was handled there or whether it even had crafting.

 

We are not talking about general skills but crafting, right? And 7D2D is a genre mix, so at least we should add survival ganes to the pool. Then any survival or RPG game where you find instead of research schematics would apply. Are there any? Someone else would have to answer this.

 

But as to your central premise, yes, probably non-randomized learning of crafting recipes is the better way, but then crafting HAS TO BE the slowest method of aquiring things without the possibility of a fast track through it, something 7D2D never had.

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

19 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

But as to your central premise, yes, probably non-randomized learning of crafting recipes is the better way, but then crafting HAS TO BE the slowest method of aquiring things without the possibility of a fast track through it, something 7D2D never had.

 

 

If it´s the slowest way to get good items then everyone will say eff crafting and go quests and looting hardcore as the game already draws you in that direction with the water changes. Abusing the quest system will be even more of a thing then. Crafting should be the first way to get your stuff when playing the "surivial horde crafting" game that TFP claims it is and not the alternative if you can´t get what you want as loot or reward.

 

Why would you want to make a survival horde crafting game into a loot shooter? We have Borderlands and similar games for that.

 

And in case you forgot, that´s the subtitle of the game: The survival horde crafting game. I don´t see the word loot or quest in there.

 

It´s not hard to achieve that. Simply level lock crafting skills (and only those) so you can´t rush them and nerf trader rewards and loot. Crafting becomes importnant again that way.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

45 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

If it´s the slowest way to get good items then everyone will say eff crafting and go quests and looting hardcore as the game already draws you in that direction with the water changes. Crafting should be the first way to get your stuff when playing the "surivial horde crafting" game that TFP claims it is and not the alternative if you can´t get what you want as loot or reward.

 

Why would you want to make a survival horde crafting game into a loot shooter? We have Borderlands and similar games for that.

 

And in case you forgot, that´s the subtitle of the game:The survival horde crafting game.

 

 

 

Currently crafting is already the slowest way in 7D2D (except for the fast track provided by magazine perks) since the trader is OP since ages. But the trader can't be fixed by making everything else OP as well but only by fixing the trader.

 

Either crafting has to be slowest way or there are ingredients that slow you down. I don't care which. By "slowest" I mean that looting should always have the ability to give you something ahead of what you can get deterministically, but it should never be so powerful that you get everything only by looting. It's a a balance thing.

 

Note that looting in 7D2D currently is not OP at all. You loot and loot and all you ever find as a lvl5 character are pipe guns and stone spears. It is the trader and his quest rewards (including the heap of dukes you get) that are OP.

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

23 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Note that looting in 7D2D currently is not OP at all. You loot and loot and all you ever find as a lvl5 character are pipe guns and stone spears. It is the trader and his quest rewards (including the heap of dukes you get) that are OP.

 

 

My luck I find level 5 or 6 shovels 

 

Iv found some good stuff before.  But the most stuff Is at the traders 

 

I think a way to fix it is give traders a set about of dukes they can trade you, like 7000. If you want more.  Do jobs . 

 

I'm just spitballing, I'm overall happy with what we got

Edited September 8, 2023 by Adam the Waster (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

@meganoth Loot and trader are the fastest way to get good items without abusing the magazine system by restarting quests over and over again. You get riddiculous OP rewards very early and if there is items in loot they are pretty much alway above what you can craft until late mid and endgame.

 

Why do you insist on crafting beeing the slowest? What´s is that obsession to rely on loot and rewards mainly? In a crafting game. Playing the wrong game maybe?

 

And yes traders need to be nerfed, it´s OP what you can get as rewards early game. For one we need a max quests per day limit as a starter (wich must inlcuded shared quests). Also rewards need to be nerfed to oblivion tbh, along with duke reward and what the traders do sell.

Edited September 8, 2023 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Loot and trader are the fastest way to get good items without abusing the magazine system by restarting quests over and over again.

 

I disagree. I see a wide margin between loot and trader.

I don't know if you are one of the people who plays without trader, but if not, try it and tell me whether loot is always above crafting. Because currently it seems you find very few complete weapons, and without the trader you are probably finding a few complete guns above what you can craft, but the gun you want will often be one you need to craft, provided you put points into that weapon perk.

 

As a side note: Currently TFP made sure you only can craft what you have perked into. Even if you did perk into it, weapon magazines are at a disadvantage against other magazine types, so there is some more balancing work necessary here.

 

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Why do you insist on crafting beeing the slowest? What´s is that obsession to rely on loot and rewards mainly? In a crafting game. Playing the wrong game maybe?

 

What is your obsession with crafting having first place? 😉

 

I have a feeling all my months of cursing on that damn trader and again in my previous post was for nothing, because in your words I always want to rely on "loot AND rewards". If it wasn't for your last paragraph I would have the impression of writing to a blind man 😆

 

 

 

Edited September 8, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Why i insist on crafting? You really ask me, after i have told you that already, why i insist on crafting in the "Survival Horde Crafting Game"? Really? Ok. I am done.

[Riamus]

@pApA^LeGBaSorry, I can't quote you without including the ping to meganoth when on my phone...

 

I disagree about limiting the number of quests per day and especially including shared quests.  There is already a limit per person per trader and a limited time available per day to limit questing.  There are many of us who enjoy questing and saying we aren't allowed to quest all day if we want to isn't a good option.

 

I'm fine with limiting quest rewards.  I think they are too good.  But not in limiting questing more than where it is now.  You can easily balance it (the rewards) without limiting it.

 

As far as crafting goes, until they make it worthwhile, there really isn't a good reason to craft and even balancing won't really change that.  You craft if you want to but otherwise, you can find most what you need without doing so.  And that shouldn't change.  If someone doesn't want to craft, they should still be able to get what they need for at least most things.  Crafting should be an alternate option and not the only viable option.  However, I am not saying it doesn't need to be balanced.  Quest rewards are too good and creating costs in A21 are really bad.  I would actually craft more of the coats weren't so bad but I don't see value in crafting past tier 1 right now because if the changes in crafting costs.  If it was still A20 crafting costs, I would craft often even though I quest and scavenge a lot.  But not with the costs the way they are.  I'll even forgo a better item that I can craft until I loot it just because the costs are so high... even if I can afford it.  I absolutely refuse to craft higher than a tier 1 drone, for example.

 

Remember that when you suggest a change that will limit someone's else's playstyle, it isn't a good thing.  In the same way that if someone suggested making crafting worse, it wouldn't be a good thing for you.

[meganoth]

53 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Why i insist on crafting? You really ask me, after i have told you that already, why i insist on crafting in the "Survival Horde Crafting Game"? Really? Ok. I am done.

 

No, that was a rethorical question where I make fun of your asking about my "obsession". Me having an opinion is not an obsession. I added a wink and didn't except an answer.

 

[BFT2020]

Even if crafting was at the same progression as looting (which is probably pretty close to when you consider perking into perks) and traders, once you make that weapon or tool, then crafting again becomes irrelevant.

 

Traders can be adjusted if you want to try to see if slowing down the progression with them makes a big enough difference to make crafting relevant.  Trader stage can be easily adjusted upwards, and you can adjust tier level of the rewards so that higher tier quests give lower tier gear (or just remove rewards entirely like I did).

 

But I don't think those would make a big impact because once you crafted that Q5 SMG or Q6 SMG (modded), why would you craft another SMG after that?

 

This random thought that keeps bouncing in my head is, why not making crafting tied somewhat to the economy?  Right now you can sell almost anything to the traders to make money.  What if they only purchased crafted items from you?  Then those weapon parts and raw materials you find while looting have no value to the trader, but if you craft a SMG out of them, then the trader is interested in your wares.

[Krougal]

12 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

@Krougal There was a time where you needed to find the forge ahead book to be able to make a forge. (A single book, not like the magazines now) and it could take you 20 days aswell with bad luck. There were some POI´s with working forges though, but it could still take a long time until you could use a forge.

Oh, I remember. It could suck hard.

[Kalen]

58 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

Even if crafting was at the same progression as looting (which is probably pretty close to when you consider perking into perks) and traders, once you make that weapon or tool, then crafting again becomes irrelevant.

 

Which is why, IMO, removing item degradation was a huge mistake.   I'll never step down off that soap box.  Item degradation made crafting far more relevant. 

[Krougal]

15 minutes ago, Kalen said:

 

Which is why, IMO, removing item degradation was a huge mistake.   I'll never step down off that soap box.  Item degradation made crafting far more relevant. 

Yeah, much as I hate to admit it, and maybe the way it was implemented sucked (because you had to have guns to combine with other guns to fix your gun and also the way performance degraded as the item wore, which also sucked) lately I think it would give more purpose and reason to keep scavenging if the stuff eventually needed to be replaced. As I go through T6 quests and I'm like "Oh, cool, another ql6 sniper rifle. I'll put it in the chest with the others." I honestly don't know why I pickup anything besides construction materials & lead (because junk turret ammo) at this point.

[Rotor]

On 9/7/2023 at 1:27 PM, BFT2020 said:

 

I did that, no unlocks via perks.  Day 20 with no workbench makes for interesting game play.

 

I didnt do anything, I just ignore traders.  Day 22 no wbench/furnace or chem station :).  I do have 300 stone arrows, I am so good a killing chicken now, they are a better hunt that Zs :).  I did get a  grilled meat mag on one of the supply drops..........but I havent found a grill for my campfire /shakesfists@RnGeezus.

[binf_shinana]

雑誌システムの最大の問題は、雑誌システムという枠が大きく用意されていたことそのものに収束するかもしれません。
必要以上に重要なシステムであるように見えてしまうことです。

現状、雑誌システムでできることは、銃スキルを集中的に取得し、より早く高Tier低品質の銃を作ることだけです（このメタは強力ですが、本当にそれしかできません）。

ほかはせいぜい、トレーダー禁止プレイをする際にロックピックスキルを取って作業台を作るくらいでしょう。
（他に、多少効率的になる程度ではなく、絶対に必要なクラフトスキルがあったら、誰か追記してください）

 

(google translation)

The biggest problem with the magazine system may come down to the very fact that the framework of the magazine system was so large.
This makes the system seem more important than it needs to be.

Currently, all you can do with the magazine system is focus on gun skills and make higher tier, lower quality guns faster (this meta is powerful, but that's really all you can do).

Other than that, the most you can do is take the lockpick skill and make a workbench when playing a game where traders are prohibited.
(If there are any other crafting skills that are not only slightly more efficient, but are absolutely necessary, please add them.)

[meganoth]

3 hours ago, binf_shinana said:

雑誌システムの最大の問題は、雑誌システムという枠が大きく用意されていたことそのものに収束するかもしれません。
必要以上に重要なシステムであるように見えてしまうことです。

現状、雑誌システムでできることは、銃スキルを集中的に取得し、より早く高Tier低品質の銃を作ることだけです（このメタは強力ですが、本当にそれしかできません）。

ほかはせいぜい、トレーダー禁止プレイをする際にロックピックスキルを取って作業台を作るくらいでしょう。
（他に、多少効率的になる程度ではなく、絶対に必要なクラフトスキルがあったら、誰か追記してください）

 

(google translation)

The biggest problem with the magazine system may come down to the very fact that the framework of the magazine system was so large.
This makes the system seem more important than it needs to be.

Currently, all you can do with the magazine system is focus on gun skills and make higher tier, lower quality guns faster (this meta is powerful, but that's really all you can do).

Other than that, the most you can do is take the lockpick skill and make a workbench when playing a game where traders are prohibited.
(If there are any other crafting skills that are not only slightly more efficient, but are absolutely necessary, please add them.)

 

Without trader I would need a point in vehicles. Not because I would fail without it, but because mid-game would be tedious without the comfort and range the vehicles provide.

 

[Kalen]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Without trader I would need a point in vehicles. Not because I would fail without it, but because mid-game would be tedious without the comfort and range the vehicles provide.

 

 I would imagine in a no trader play through, you'd also have to perk into trap making otherwise later game hordes are going to be problematic.

[7daysOfFun]

On 9/6/2023 at 12:33 AM, OneManStanding said:

I don't object to the magazine-based learn-by-reading system... but in our next world together my buddy plans on only taking the magazines about farming and cooking and giving me everything else and just let me do all the crafting. Thinking about it, the skills points just give you better performance with whatever it is you got and help you find more parts for it in loot. It has no effects on crafting, like reducing ingredient cost or improving the stats. He figures he'll manage the farm, food, and mining all the resources, whilst I do everything else.

 

On the one hand this does seem simpler -- rather than me bothering him for the random things based on what he's perked into, I can just do it myself. And rather than figuring out what magazines go to whom and accidently reading the wrong one now and again, I just eat whatever magazine that isn't about farming or seeds.

 

I say eating the magazines, 'cos it's not like I give it to my buddy when I've finished reading it.

i solved this problem in the way, that i create a 10k map with lots of citys and traders

magazine are very cheap...so u drive from trader to trader and buy the magazines u want

 

in my actual map the trader mixing is "going a little crazy" in every city in the green i have 15-18traders (i have puttet the 3 combo trader in it), i the desert 10 per city in the desert 1 per city and snow 0 per city..wasted area i dont know, i havent visited yet

 

[Ianua]

I have a question. I played the A21 a few times and as the "base b!tch" I find that I am at a disadvantage on skilling up and finding magazines since I am not the one looting things. Of course my other players can bring me mags for the skills I need if they find them, but I don't get any bonus for finding mags since I am not the one looking for them. Obviously I do go out and loot a little, but in a typical game, my other 2 players would have looted everything close by the base. Any thoughts other than "get out and loot" since my toon tends to be a bit agoraphobic.  Looking forward to the new characters customization in A22

[Krougal]

34 minutes ago, Ianua said:

I have a question. I played the A21 a few times and as the "base b!tch" I find that I am at a disadvantage on skilling up and finding magazines since I am not the one looting things. Of course my other players can bring me mags for the skills I need if they find them, but I don't get any bonus for finding mags since I am not the one looking for them. Obviously I do go out and loot a little, but in a typical game, my other 2 players would have looted everything close by the base. Any thoughts other than "get out and loot" since my toon tends to be a bit agoraphobic.  Looking forward to the new characters customization in A22

Yeah, this is really not a change conducive to the base @%$# or even multiplayer in general.

 

Maybe try having them drop markers at clusters of newstands & mailboxes in the urban areas and leaving them for you to just motorcycle out and loot to give you a better chance of getting some mags you need.

[OneManStanding]

After a bit more experience, I'm actually thinking the magazines are not what we want. They're largely random, not a predictable result of anything you do. Your progress is entirely dependent -- even hindered -- by the random nature of the magazines, despite the loot buff from perks. Not forgetting of course that what's in the box depends on the perks of the rabid loot weasel who opens every box within interaction distance.

 

As I already said in my initial comment, the magazines are also irrelevant to the perk system - they just let you craft stuff. My buddy has taken the magazines for cooking and farming and gives me everything else even if he's perked into it - so I just craft everything. He might be perked into intellect and engineering but I'm the one that knows how to make the forges and the bikes 'cos he gives me all the magazines. It's simpler in a sense, but I don't feel like we're a team as much as in earlier games where we each perked into stuff the group would need, we all had a role and we all contributed.

 

If the Pimps wanted to lengthen the early stage of the game, couldn't they just give you more to perk into...? If you need to perk through fifteen layers of tools to go from stone to iron and steel, then with the associate cost of levelling up the attribute itself AND the increased XP point cost for each level of the perks (from one per level to two per level to three per level), not forgetting the separate performance perks you'll need like mining, that would lengthen the game all by itself. But perking into stuff would mean something as it would again unlock recipes, and would also bring back the squad dynamic.

[avalonnn]

2 hours ago, OneManStanding said:

After a bit more experience, I'm actually thinking the magazines are not what we want. They're largely random, not a predictable result of anything you do. Y

I do agree with this. Some slot machine games work, but it would be nice to have skills be more intentional. As the streamer LegendOfTotalWar says, mechanics that give you agency are meaningful for the player, or as Sid Meier said, good games give the player interesting choices.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, OneManStanding said:

As I already said in my initial comment, the magazines are also irrelevant to the perk system - they just let you craft stuff. My buddy has taken the magazines for cooking and farming and gives me everything else even if he's perked into it - so I just craft everything. He might be perked into intellect and engineering but I'm the one that knows how to make the forges and the bikes 'cos he gives me all the magazines. It's simpler in a sense, but I don't feel like we're a team as much as in earlier games where we each perked into stuff the group would need, we all had a role and we all contributed.

 

Okay, but that is a choice you and your buddy are making and it is a choice that was never possible before. In the past you crafted whatever you perked into because it was tied together so you were stuck being the crafter of whatever you perked into. You can still play that way by reading the magazines that match your perked abilities just as before but in A21 there are other choices as well.

 

As you stated, you can also choose now to let one person or a couple of people do all of the crafting and give them all the magazines. Just because this is a new possible way to play doesn't mean it is the best or only way or even the most efficient way.

 

The obvious answer to your and your buddy's problem of feeling less of a team than before is to play the game like you did before, read the magazines that match what you perk into, and share in the crafting more with each other.

54 minutes ago, avalonnn said:

I do agree with this. Some slot machine games work, but it would be nice to have skills be more intentional. As the streamer LegendOfTotalWar says, mechanics that give you agency are meaningful for the player, or as Sid Meier said, good games give the player interesting choices.

 

The thing is that survival games are also about working with what you've got and making do with what you can do until you can do more. Determinism is worse than random generation when it comes to the recipes that you can craft because it makes every playthrough the same and most experienced players can drill down on the deterministic nature of the game to never feel any struggle, never have to make do with inferior gear or low quality building materials. They always stay way ahead of the difficulty curve of the game.

 

Sometimes having to fight off a 7-day horde with pipe weaponry and a wood and cobblestone base is more fun than always fighting off a 7-day horde with machine guns and cement every single time because the deterministic path to top gear is solved.

 

If it were the actual skills that were randomly assigned in progression I would be against that too. But it is simply the recipes for gear, food, medicine, armor, transportation and building blocks that are random and will cause a varied result in when you attain the recipe to craft those things. And in most cases you aren't even going without-- you are just going with an inferior version until you can find the recipe for the better version.