Concerning Magazines and Learn-By-Reading...

[OneManStanding]

I don't object to the magazine-based learn-by-reading system... but in our next world together my buddy plans on only taking the magazines about farming and cooking and giving me everything else and just let me do all the crafting. Thinking about it, the skills points just give you better performance with whatever it is you got and help you find more parts for it in loot. It has no effects on crafting, like reducing ingredient cost or improving the stats. He figures he'll manage the farm, food, and mining all the resources, whilst I do everything else.

 

On the one hand this does seem simpler -- rather than me bothering him for the random things based on what he's perked into, I can just do it myself. And rather than figuring out what magazines go to whom and accidently reading the wrong one now and again, I just eat whatever magazine that isn't about farming or seeds.

 

I say eating the magazines, 'cos it's not like I give it to my buddy when I've finished reading it.

[Riamus]

I've come to the conclusion that the magazines are only good if you play single player or in a group that always plays together.  If your group doesn't play together all the time, you and up not being able to make things you need.

 

I've also found that it can be a pain to have to ask someone to make something all the time instead of making it myself when I need it.  It was one thing for farming or cooking as those are fine for one person to do.  But crafting weapons or tools just gets to be a pain to all for every upgrade.

 

In the end, I find i just give up on crafting.  It ends up not being worth it.

[tmo97]

Posted this on Reddit.

I'm sure nothing will be done with this,  this is just how I'd implement it, because to me, this makes sense.
It's how other games pull it off.

 

How about...

• Remove >T3 weapons and armor from loot.
  This encourages developing crafting skills.

• Skills and perks are separated.
  You get better at using weapons & tools by using them.
  Special traits are kept to the rare books.
  Perks can be gained at set skill levels, but still require a perk point.

• Remove looting perks for easier balancing.

All that's left is figuring out how intellectual skills and crafting skills should be leveled.

• Separate the usage skill system from the crafting skill system.

• Unify all crafting skills of the same category into one.
  No longer 'spear crafting' and 'club crafting'.
  No longer 'shotgun crafting' and 'pistol crafting'.
  If you can craft a metal club, then you also can craft a metal spear.
  If you can craft a shotgun, then you also can craft a pistol.

• Separate the usage perks from the crafting perks.

• Keep the weapon-respective perks.
  No more linear progression from 0 to 5.
  Create a perk tree for each weapon skill.
  For example,
  Players can specialize in quicker attacks, or heavier attacks.

These changes will make each skill have its own experience bar.
Additionally, it provides an opportunity for character leveling.
Your character has its own perk tree.
This is where perks like Iron Gut fit in.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, tmo97 said:

Posted this on Reddit.

I'm sure nothing will be done with this,  this is just how I'd implement it, because to me, this makes sense.
It's how other games pull it off.

 

How about...

• Remove >T3 weapons and armor from loot.
  This encourages developing crafting skills.

• Skills and perks are separated.
  You get better at using weapons & tools by using them.
  Special traits are kept to the rare books.
  Perks can be gained at set skill levels, but still require a perk point.

• Remove looting perks for easier balancing.

All that's left is figuring out how intellectual skills and crafting skills should be leveled.

• Separate the usage skill system from the crafting skill system.

• Unify all crafting skills of the same category into one.
  No longer 'spear crafting' and 'club crafting'.
  No longer 'shotgun crafting' and 'pistol crafting'.
  If you can craft a metal club, then you also can craft a metal spear.
  If you can craft a shotgun, then you also can craft a pistol.

• Separate the usage perks from the crafting perks.

• Keep the weapon-respective perks.
  No more linear progression from 0 to 5.
  Create a perk tree for each weapon skill.
  For example,
  Players can specialize in quicker attacks, or heavier attacks.

These changes will make each skill have its own experience bar.
Additionally, it provides an opportunity for character leveling.
Your character has its own perk tree.
This is where perks like Iron Gut fit in.

See alpha 16...

[binf_shinana]

個人的には雑誌システムは多くの問題を抱えていると考え、フォーラムでも問題提起はしていますが、かといって現状の雑誌システムに反対するものでもありません。
理由としては、一般的なプレイヤーはそれほど効率的なゲームプレイをしようとは考えないからです。
それとは別に、効率を求めるプレイヤー向けのmodは必要だと思っており、私はそれを念頭においてmod開発をしています。

 

(google translation)

Personally, I think that the magazine system has many problems, and I have raised these issues on forums, but I am not opposed to the current magazine system.
The reason is that the average player doesn't think about playing the game that efficiently.
Apart from that, I think that a mod for players who want efficiency is necessary, and I develop mods with that in mind.

Edited September 6 by binf_shinana (see edit history)

[meganoth]

11 hours ago, tmo97 said:

You get better at using weapons & tools by using them.

 

You are correct that nothing like that will be done in vanilla, learning by doing was once in the game and will not come back. The game is not going to change much before final release and the perk system as it is now will be (besides balancing changes) what we will see in the final release as well. The time for big overhauls is gone. And yes, I consider the magazines a comparatively small change from the schematics we had before.

 

If someone wants an LBD system he can always play some of the overhaul mods, especially Darkness Falls has reimplemented it quite well.

 

13 hours ago, OneManStanding said:

I don't object to the magazine-based learn-by-reading system... but in our next world together my buddy plans on only taking the magazines about farming and cooking and giving me everything else and just let me do all the crafting. Thinking about it, the skills points just give you better performance with whatever it is you got and help you find more parts for it in loot. It has no effects on crafting, like reducing ingredient cost or improving the stats. He figures he'll manage the farm, food, and mining all the resources, whilst I do everything else.

 

On the one hand this does seem simpler -- rather than me bothering him for the random things based on what he's perked into, I can just do it myself. And rather than figuring out what magazines go to whom and accidently reading the wrong one now and again, I just eat whatever magazine that isn't about farming or seeds.

 

I say eating the magazines, 'cos it's not like I give it to my buddy when I've finished reading it.

 

The big disadvantage of the magazine system is that you have to adjust what you perk into to what you need to craft. If you don't perk into something you won't be able to craft that stuff when you need it. And when you perk into something where you don't need the magazines then you are slowing down the progression in all the other magazines.

 

So you need to put at least 1 point into all the INT perks that govern utility crafting like the workstations, traps and vehicles. If you don't you have to use the trader to get the relevant items.

 

Edited September 6 by meganoth (see edit history)

[OneManStanding]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

The big disadvantage of the magazine system is that you have to adjust what you perk into to what you need to craft. If you don't perk into something you won't be able to craft that stuff when you need it. And when you perk into something where you don't need the magazines then you are slowing down the progression in all the other magazines.

 

So you need to put at least 1 point into all the INT perks that govern utility crafting like the workstations, traps and vehicles. If you don't you have to use the trader to get the relevant items.

 

He'll be perking into things, but he'll just give me the magazines and the parts he finds for the actual crafting end. You only need the magazines to craft the thingy, you don't need to perk into it. For instance, he'll perk into clubs but he'll give me the magazines and the parts so I'll make the bats. I didn't perk into explosives in our previous game, but we just gave me all the magazines and I could - eventually - craft rocket launchers without any points in explosives.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, OneManStanding said:

He'll be perking into things, but he'll just give me the magazines and the parts he finds for the actual crafting end. You only need the magazines to craft the thingy, you don't need to perk into it. For instance, he'll perk into clubs but he'll give me the magazines and the parts so I'll make the bats. I didn't perk into explosives in our previous game, but we just gave me all the magazines and I could - eventually - craft rocket launchers without any points in explosives.

 

Sure, but someone has to perk into explosives to get enough magazines, no matter who finally reads it. And that is what I don't like about the current magazine system

[BFT2020]

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Sure, but someone has to perk into explosives to get enough magazines, no matter who finally reads it. And that is what I don't like about the current magazine system

 

I think the issue might be more of a loot or loot quantity than anything else.

 

The explosives crafting magazines are in the Shotgun messiah crates, but in group two which is a high chance for pick, but not a guaranteed (like the first group).  And unfortunately it shares equal chances with magazines for handguns, shotguns, rifles, and machine guns.  There is also a lower chance of getting ammo, ammo crafting items, or messiah books.  Even if you get the 2nd group pick, and the pick is one of the magazines, you get one magazine. 

 

One thing I been thinking about is, should the crates have a chance to give you more magazines?  And make them a guaranteed pick?  Would it be better if every time you loot the shotgun messiah crate, you get 2-3 magazines (either the same or a chance of getting a variety)?  Should the increase probability chances apply in this case or should they only apply to situations where the magazine selection is much greater like the Crack a books?

 

It's something I been thinking about in the background as I been updating my crafting mod to A21, and based on what the numbers are showing and what I have seen in game.

[Weazelsun]

20 hours ago, meganoth said:

The big disadvantage of the magazine system is that you have to adjust what you perk into to what you need to craft. If you don't perk into something you won't be able to craft that stuff when you need it. And when you perk into something where you don't need the magazines then you are slowing down the progression in all the other magazines.

 

So you need to put at least 1 point into all the INT perks that govern utility crafting like the workstations, traps and vehicles. If you don't you have to use the trader to get the relevant items.

 

^ sums up my only complaint about to learn by reading. Right now, I'm stuck with a minibike for the time being because I didn't put any points into Vehicle perk, so now I'm playing catch-up. I'm sure once they refine it could be better. My opinion is that perhaps instead unlocks could be every 5 books read depending on the book series.

[pApA^LeGBa]

The biggest issue with the system is, that it is relying on RNG for skills. Yes, i know putting points into a skill does raise your chances but it´s still random. Imo an absolute no go for skills to have randomness included. Simply a bad idea.

 

I went to the evening of day 5 without beeing able to make bacon and eggs. I had a point in master chef, i did loot a lot in residential houses. Yet i couldn´t find 10 magazines in nearly 5 hours of playing.

Edited September 7 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Weazelsun said:

 

^ sums up my only complaint about to learn by reading. Right now, I'm stuck with a minibike for the time being because I didn't put any points into Vehicle perk, so now I'm playing catch-up. I'm sure once they refine it could be better. My opinion is that perhaps instead unlocks could be every 5 books read depending on the book series.

 

Sadly I got the answer from TFP that at least the massive boni from perks will stay, one reason being the player should feel the difference when perking into it. Faster unlocks will not resolve my complaint at least.

 

36 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

The biggest issue with the system is, that it is relying on RNG for skills. Yes, i know putting points into a skill does raise your chances but it´s still random. Imo an absolute no go for skills to have randomness included. Simply a bad idea.

 

I went to the evening of day 5 without beeing able to make bacon and eggs. I had a point in master chef, i did loot a lot in residential houses. Yet i couldn´t find 10 magazines in nearly 5 hours of playing.

You are complaining about uncertain supplies in an apocalypse in a survival game. There is the creative menue if you want dependability.  I would simply eat grilled meat in the mean time, the bacon&eggs recipe is already on an unstoppable railroad to your hands.

 

 

 

Edited September 7 by meganoth (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

Also the whole system leads to a new and disgusting meta. People will double dip ofc. That´s not new. But now they will simply start a quest in a bookstore or any POI with a lot of book shelves after the first lootround and then when they looted all books before finishing the quest log out and log in again. Wich is a problem on servers and surely also not how TFP wants people to play the game.

 

@meganoth You wanna tell me an artifical system that would never happen in RL is good because it creates a lack off ressources in an apocalyptic game? Really? That´s how far you have to go to defend it? Wow.

 

If they want to reduce ressources in an apocalyptic scenario they should maybe not have buffed food in loot. Or make water actually harder to get instead of simply switching to another method that makes no sense at all and doesn´t make water harder but tries to force you to use traders more.

 

And using the traders and quests more leads to an overabundance of items. So the whole magazine and water change creates an overflow of good items. Basically a whole circle with no results.

Edited September 7 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Krougal]

It's because the Amazon delivery guy lived through it and he goes around and restocks all the vending machines since he has no packages left to deliver.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

You wanna tell me an artifical system that would never happen in RL is good because it creates a lack off ressources in an apocalyptic game? Really? That´s how far you have to go to defend it? Wow.

 

No. I want to tell you that your example does not hold any potential for a crisis. You as a veteran who knows at least 5 ways to get food is complaining that he can't make some specific food already that saves him 3 seconds of eating time.

 

I would even be happy if they changed back to a random schematic scheme but with the twist that you can't circumvent that with perks. Makes each playthrough a lot more random, increases replayability.

 

In other words, I don't really like the magazine system in its current form, but the little randomness left that can make someone not being able to cook b&e on day 5 is its only saving grace.

 

 

[binf_shinana]

設計図システムのまま、スキルをとると該当する設計図が出やすくなる程度でも似たようなプレイフィールは実装できたはずですが、なぜか雑誌システムが実装されました。
a20が見た目の変化が大きい反面、ゲーム部分での変更があまりなかったことによる反動として、一見大きく変わったように見えるシステムをa21で実装したかったのだろうと想像しています。

(google translation)

We could have implemented a similar play feel with the blueprint system, even if it was easier to get the corresponding blueprints by acquiring skills, but for some reason the magazine system was implemented.
I imagine that the a21 wanted to implement a system that seemed to have changed greatly at first glance as a reaction to the fact that the a20 had a lot of changes in appearance, but there weren't many changes in the game part.

[Kalen]

The whole magazine system feels a lot like LBD.  Except instead of spam crafting to raise skill you have to spam loot (and hope for RNG to go your way).  You have a lot less control over your characters development.  For me, I've found that being one magazine away from being able to craft something I want to be the most frustrating thing I've experienced in this game to date.

[Krougal]

57 minutes ago, Kalen said:

The whole magazine system feels a lot like LBD.  Except instead of spam crafting to raise skill you have to spam loot (and hope for RNG to go your way).  You have a lot less control over your characters development.  For me, I've found that being one magazine away from being able to craft something I want to be the most frustrating thing I've experienced in this game to date.

Yeah, and then I am like @%$# everything when I see mailboxes. I mean even now late game and I can be flying overhead in gyrocopter and it's like "OOOh! 4 newspaper stands!" /me crashes into ground

 

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, Kalen said:

The whole magazine system feels a lot like LBD.  Except instead of spam crafting to raise skill you have to spam loot (and hope for RNG to go your way).  You have a lot less control over your characters development.  For me, I've found that being one magazine away from being able to craft something I want to be the most frustrating thing I've experienced in this game to date.

 

You actually have quite a lot of control if you want. Just push the perk for the magazine you want as high as possible and be careful to perk into as few other magazine perks as you can afford. No matter your luck you will see a massive difference and that crafting skill will climb far ahead of all others

 

 

[Kalen]

6 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You actually have quite a lot of control if you want. Just push the perk for the magazine you want as high as possible and be careful to perk into as few other magazine perks as you can afford. No matter your luck you will see a massive difference and that crafting skill will climb far ahead of all others

 

 

 

Well sure, I didn't say you have no control.... but you certainly have less than you used to.  Not to mention, as you have said, that control comes with a cost.

[BFT2020]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

No. I want to tell you that your example does not hold any potential for a crisis. You as a veteran who knows at least 5 ways to get food is complaining that he can't make some specific food already that saves him 3 seconds of eating time.

 

I would even be happy if they changed back to a random schematic scheme but with the twist that you can't circumvent that with perks. Makes each playthrough a lot more random, increases replayability.

 

In other words, I don't really like the magazine system in its current form, but the little randomness left that can make someone not being able to cook b&e on day 5 is its only saving grace.

 

 

 

I did that, no unlocks via perks.  Day 20 with no workbench makes for interesting game play.

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I did that, no unlocks via perks.  Day 20 with no workbench makes for interesting game play.

You sir, are a masochist.

[pApA^LeGBa]

17 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

No. I want to tell you that your example does not hold any potential for a crisis. You as a veteran who knows at least 5 ways to get food is complaining that he can't make some specific food already that saves him 3 seconds of eating time.

 

I would even be happy if they changed back to a random schematic scheme but with the twist that you can't circumvent that with perks. Makes each playthrough a lot more random, increases replayability.

 

In other words, I don't really like the magazine system in its current form, but the little randomness left that can make someone not being able to cook b&e on day 5 is its only saving grace.

 

 

 

That was one example to show how random the system can be, for the sole purpose to show how rng sucks for skills. Not because i needed bacon and eggs that bad.

 

To make that clear: RNG and skills is something that should never be related to each other in a game. Not because i can´t get something fast enough but because it´s simply a bad idea. Also because it creates a really horrible meta with looting one place multiple times and abusing fergettin elixir.

 

At this point it would be better to have a good LBD with seperate perks for crafting an item and using it. Or non LBD with seperate perks for looting and crafting, wich would greatly improve the lenght of a playtrough, but that would also mean the trader rewards need to be nerfed down a lot.

 

Another option would be quests from non trader NPC´s (or from notes as this would mean a lot of work to implement) that you need to do to get crafting skills.

 

Anything but rng.

 

@Krougal There was a time where you needed to find the forge ahead book to be able to make a forge. (A single book, not like the magazines now) and it could take you 20 days aswell with bad luck. There were some POI´s with working forges though, but it could still take a long time until you could use a forge.

Edited September 8 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

That was one example to show how random the system can be, for the sole purpose to show how rng sucks for skills. Not because i needed bacon and eggs that bad.

 

Okay, it was the example you just had available, I give you that.

 

Only that your example may not suck from a game designers point of view because it promotes slighty different problems each time you play and therefore replayability. Your example just doesn't have that life-threatening game f** up beyond repair have-to-restart kind of ring to it that would denote a non-desirable situation to a game designer. What it shows is that crafting progression is still somewhat random (which isn't something nobody has noticed yet) but it didn't show the negative side. And you need a negative side for the rest of your argument that implies the the system needs to change, right?

 

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

To make that clear: RNG and skills is something that should never be related to each other in a game. Not because i can´t get something fast enough but because it´s simply a bad idea.

 

Isn't this an argument loop? It is a bad idea because it is a bad idea.

 

5 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Also because it creates a really horrible meta with looting one place multiple times and abusing fergettin elixir.

 

Ok. That seems to be a general problem of any POI that is more desirable than other places. Even without the magazine system, i.e. with the previous schematics you could have done that and come away with practically all schematics that you could potentially find at some level. In other words, we are not worse of than before.

 

And the potential of fergettin to just spec into INT, build the motorbike and chem station, then respec to something else, is again the inherent potential of the fergetting elixier that would exist even more if perks were used to give you crafting skills. The only way to stop fergettin to be so damn good is to make it very expensive and dukes not so easy to get, or add level unlocks to recipes, i.e. the level gates almost everyone hated when they were in the game.

 

 

 

Edited September 8 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Kalen]

6 minutes ago, meganoth said:

Ok. That seems to be a general problem of any POI that is more desirable than other places. Even without the magazine system, i.e. with the previous schematics you could have done that and come away with practically all schematics that you could potentially find at some level. In other words, we are not worse of than before.

 

Schematics aren't the problem.... at least to me.   Its the QL at which you can craft.   This used to be dictated by perks, which is deterministic (or further back by skill which could be increased by using it.  Again, deterministic).   Now, its determined by which magazines you can find which is RNG.   For me, RNG is not a fun way to build a character.   To equip a character RNG is excellent but not to determine skills.