Do you build realistically, or do you cheese game mechanics?

[warmer]

I often see videos on horde bases that use impossible physics/floating blocks. This to me takes all the fun/challenge out of the game.

 

What is your opinion?

[theFlu]

Yes. As in, both..

 

The floaters aren't that much of a cheese (other than aesthetics), zeds usually find something relevant to break. There's plenty of "more cheesy" things in game.. But even when I'm using something that technically floats, I'll use something like a corner to make it look somewhat attached to the world. I don't mind, logically or emotionally, but it feels like it makes things a bit easier to "navigate" in a way.

[Riamus]

I build my bases without floating blocks.  But I don't always make the effort to get things placed on the ground to not float.  Things like spike traps or a set of blocks next to a mine, for example.  I just don't feel like always digging out the terrain so it is flat before placing something down and shrines what you place will float and sometimes the terrain adjusts up or down to attach to the item.

 

Of course, even the pregen8k map has floating guardrails in places.

[AtomicUs5000]

Posts made out of blocks that the zombies do not recognize as such are worse in my eyes (like "ladder rail"), but no, I don't like doing that stuff.
I don't see a fun outcome doing that. Maybe if I played less I might do it for one playthrough, but I'm pretty sure I would regret it shortly after.
I sometimes make something where the zombies can fall, and I know ways to make sure they don't rage from fall damage, but I don't do that either. Also, I normally don't even discuss my dislike for these things here because it tends to bring in a swarm of the "stop telling me how to play" people, and sometimes the "TFP don't need to waste time fixing these things" people.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2023 by AtomicUs5000 (see edit history)

[TrionWolf]

Im with a small group that plays, we usually take over a building as our base. In this patch we are using a construction site as a horde base works well, although we need to make repairs after the horde night.

[Hurk]

54 minutes ago, Riamus said:

I build my bases without floating blocks.  But I don't always make the effort to get things placed on the ground to not float.  Things like spike traps or a set of blocks next to a mine, for example.  I just don't feel like always digging out the terrain so it is flat before placing something down and shrines what you place will float and sometimes the terrain adjusts up or down to attach to the item.

 

Of course, even the pregen8k map has floating guardrails in places.

not sure if you have bothered with this, but i do it at places i plan on building a base at, you can place standard frame blocks over the ground. it will force the fake stuff down to the standard block height and give a flat surface to work with. and then gathering up frameblocks after isnt that bad a chore. 

[doughphunghus]

I have never really cheesed anything, i just play until i am "done". Random unfair deaths, accidents, bad rng, it doesn't really matter as I'm not trying to "win" or get anywhere fast.

 

however, i used to try to build my own base from scratch. Then i stopped that and was choosing POis that were made out if brick/concrete, and lately ive just been choosing pois that are "interesting" or challenging. The latest games ive played im trending not only towards "just pick a fun place, defensibility be damned!" But also ive been literally trying to "play it real" which means things like:

- storage/storage cheats need to be placed on the floor/tables, and are not to be stacked unrealistically

- campfire must go on a stone/concrete floor or near/in a fireplace. If one does not exist, i mist retrofit one in. 
- campfire/forge require a chimney (made or part of the building)

- i have to have a room for sleeping. 
- cold food/drinks have to go in appropriate storage/etc.

 

ive found that doing this just makes it more fun, oddly. Like its super laid back, but also my base is unique and fun to run around in every time. And when it gets destroyed/attacked, its extra traumatic.

 

bonus: making lots of glass windows and ceiling skylights. And then hearing them get broken when having to hide on the roof.

 

The most cheese i usually do is: break the stairs/ladders 2 blocks from the floor so zeds cannot het me.... but I've thought if not doing tat anymore and relying on traps/doors/bars instead.

 

[RhinoW]

I always make my bases on a PoI after taking it over, and adapt the defense based on the already built structure. Currently I am using one of the military checkpoints as base, surrounded by concrete walls, catwalks, and a nice kill center square at the front of the base.

[Rince]

If people like to use those things, more power for them. As long as they are having fun...

 

But personally I don't bother with weird things. Usually either reinforce my base and build some part as horde base (which cost me dearly in A20 with the fire spread mod installed) or I just build something, usually a plataform with several stairs to slow them down and which unite near me. Or if I'm using rifles, a long plataform with hurdles.

One of my favorites was when I fortified the entrance of the old prision. Was fun when the zombies started to rain from the towers... opsie!!

[Abusimplea]

No floating blocks.

 

I use or used switchable paths (hatches), wedge slides, kill corridors, that projectile-transparent solid-looking block, conveniently placed but structurally unimportant blocks for the zombies to chew on...

Also used the scaffolding ladder a lot because it really has a good hit shape for melee, grenades and projectiles, but it messes up pathing too much and i actually want them to path "correctly" as my bases rely on that. Also, zombies still glitched through occasionally when used as ceiling of a kill corridor.

 

I now experiment with the Z-shaped scaffolding side panels which have an even better hit shape (you can shoot but not melee or crawl through the sloped connector). They definitely seem to be superior for the day 1 coward cage on PvE servers (admins still seem to hate it when players claim POIs even though there are tons of them and the quest system actually handles claimed POIs pretty well now.

[Khissi]

You do realize that one person's cheese is another person's tactical advantage?  Who's to say what's 'cheese' and what is using your brain?  I prefer to build bases that work against the zombies and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't but this is not to say that another person might be not be able to make that base that failed me work very well just by manipulating the blocks in a particular way. Your question is very poorly stated.  It should have been...  Are you willing to take advantage of Voxel mechanics to make killing zombies easier and safer, or Do you only build bases that would pass inspection in the real world yet allow you to kill zombies.

 

Silly, right?  It is a zombie game after all... not very 'realistic'.  

[BFT2020]

I picked option 1, but take it with a huge grain of salt.  I would also put blocks down for items that were on stop of things I would harvesting so it wasn't floating anymore in the air....all because it wasn't realistic looking even though I would more than unlikely not enter that POI again unless I get a repeat mission  😏

[pApA^LeGBa]

Voted 1.

 

That said, you can cheese the horde with no floating blocks aswell. There is a lot of cheesy options with no floating blocks.

[AtomicUs5000]

13 hours ago, Khissi said:

 I prefer to build bases that work against the zombies and sometimes they do and sometimes they don't but this is not to say that another person might be not be able to make that base that failed me work very well just by manipulating the blocks in a particular way.

 
So do I.
I mentioned before that I don't like these kinds of things in the game. I do consider it cheese and it's been debated for as long as I can remember. For me, if it is something you can do the first week and it remains effective through to day 300+, there is a problem.

TFP, in general, seems to have the desire to wipe out as much of it as possible. I can understand because they put years of effort in creating this game mechanic with all of the systems and assets involved, they don't want someone to come along and defeat it all in a matter of minutes. The goal is to present a challenge and if what was made doesn't do that, it is basically a failure. Sometimes there appears to be a back and forth of players finding the so-called cheese and the developers attempting to close that gap. People argue that it is a waste of time. If people want to do it, let them. There will always be some way to cheese, etc. I understand this point of view as well.

 

TFP also seems to have this mentality that being able to create an AFK base is a bad thing. I mostly disagree and I think having this mentality only heats up the debate.

 
In my opinion, if the tower defense aspect was given more depth and more focus was put on base defense progression, less people would look for ways to "cheese" to begin with. Give people more reasons to think about how to build and with what to build with. Make it so certain materials and shapes are effective for certain zombies, but then other materials and shapes are effective against others. Do the opposite and make it so more zombie types are resilient against specific types of damage or can easily hang on to odd shapes. Perhaps some cannot be electrocuted, some cannot be burned. Make more traps that can be enhanced as you progress. Introduce some logic operations to relays. There should be several paths to achieve an excellent base using a plethora of possible combinations of voxel mechanics, using the provided tools as intended, and using your own creativity and ingenuity. This is where the most fun is to be had. In the end, if you no longer have to actively engage with the zombies, you have not "cheesed" the system... you progressed and ultimately figured out the solution to the challenging problem.

[doughphunghus]

16 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

No floating blocks.

 

I use or used switchable paths (hatches), wedge slides, kill corridors, that projectile-transparent solid-looking block, conveniently placed but structurally unimportant blocks for the zombies to chew on...

Also used the scaffolding ladder a lot because it really has a good hit shape for melee, grenades and projectiles, but it messes up pathing too much and i actually want them to path "correctly" as my bases rely on that. Also, zombies still glitched through occasionally when used as ceiling of a kill corridor.

 

I now experiment with the Z-shaped scaffolding side panels which have an even better hit shape (you can shoot but not melee or crawl through the sloped connector). They definitely seem to be superior for the day 1 coward cage on PvE servers (admins still seem to hate it when players claim POIs even though there are tons of them and the quest system actually handles claimed POIs pretty well now.

Yeah, if tfp could at least fix the "clip underground to see everything" and the "no claiming pois!" I might consider playing on pvp servers again. Until then: never. I know theres more pvp cheats and shenenegins, but these 2 are my personal biggest no nos with pvp. I think the admins wanted to have "whole chunk/city reset zones" but with the new chunk reset rules.... i could see this not needing to be done... but then again i can see some 8 year old troll having a bot or something just running and visiting all the chunks it can to keep the resets from happening.

[Abusimplea]

34 minutes ago, doughphunghus said:

Yeah, if tfp could at least fix the "clip underground to see everything" and the "no claiming pois!" I might consider playing on pvp servers again. Until then: never. I know theres more pvp cheats and shenenegins, but these 2 are my personal biggest no nos with pvp. I think the admins wanted to have "whole chunk/city reset zones" but with the new chunk reset rules.... i could see this not needing to be done... but then again i can see some 8 year old troll having a bot or something just running and visiting all the chunks it can to keep the resets from happening.

I thought they fixed the clipping. But i didn't really try hard and am no PvP pro either. So maybe they missed one. Report it if it hasn't been reported yet.

 

And they actually did fix the "no claiming pois!" thing. It is just conservative server admins working on outdated information that still clinge to that obsolete rule. A lot of them still even use the old reset zone mods that work on a way more coarse level than the new and superior chunk reset mechanic which has been designed to fix the same problem in a more elegant way.

 

For the chunk reset prevention botting problem, i would actually wait for it to actually happen in teh wild as chunks are 16 x 16 horizontal squares. So there are a lot of them to touch on the typical megacity map (and let's be honest, small cities just aren't fun in A21 no matter whether there are griefers or not).

 

Part of the issue also is, that lots of servers are configured with insanely huge claim areas which make it really hard to just claim a single small and modest POI. So i guess, The Fun Pimps could make claim area sizes shrinkable by the claim block's owner to at least allow servers to cater to castle owners and city dwellers alike.

But ultimately, this is mostly a social problem now. The tech has been fixed but society doesn't seem to be ready for it yet...

Edited July 14, 2023 by Abusimplea (see edit history)

[warmer]

21 hours ago, doughphunghus said:

" But also ive been literally trying to "play it real" which means things like:

- storage/storage cheats need to be placed on the floor/tables, and are not to be stacked unrealistically

- campfire must go on a stone/concrete floor or near/in a fireplace. If one does not exist, i mist retrofit one in. 
- campfire/forge require a chimney (made or part of the building)

- i have to have a room for sleeping. 
- cold food/drinks have to go in appropriate storage/etc.

 

 

 

I like playing this way because I use 7d2d as a walking dead simulator, I like having something less arcade like. This is why I am not a huge fan of the overhaul mods that add a bunch sci Fi / magic elements. While I think things like Darkness Falls are incredible for the scope and work that has been put into, it just takes it too far out of the setting I want to play in.

18 hours ago, Abusimplea said:

 

I use or used switchable paths (hatches), .

Oh that is a really cool concept being able to dynamically change the pathing taken on the fly. Thanks for the idea!

Edited July 14, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[CoolJ]

For hordes, I tend to just build a single block hallway about ten blocks long. I elevate it by two blocks so the zombies path down the hallway directly at me. Once I get access to electric fences, I put those across the path. Then I shoot every single zombie in the head. It's cheap. It's simple. I don't really consider it to be cheese because if I run out of ammo, I'm pretty much dead. Which has happened before. It's cool if you want to spend all kinds of time trying different blocks trying to exploit zombie behavior. That's just not how I roll. No fall traps, no guns, darts or blades to steal my XP. It actually scales pretty well into the late game because it allows you to easily shoot demos in the head and avoid the button. Just don't run out of ammo or you are gonna have a bad time.

[Crater Creator]

I never employ impossible physics/floating blocks. Everything looks plausible in addition to working with the game’s SI rules. Unless it’s accidental, like I change the design mid-build and don’t notice that something is left floating.

I do agree with Khissi to the extent that players may disagree on what is cheesy. I find the question of what is cheesy interesting. I’ve been thinking, as a personal challenge, of building a base that works great and isn’t cheesy at all by anyone’s standards. But I’m not sure it’s possible. It may be that everyone considers cheesy to mean, “the things I won’t do.” So far the poll is consistent with that. And it may be that if everyone’s definition of cheesy were taken cumulatively, it would exclude everything that’s remotely effective, so you’d have to have a base that provides no benefit, or no base at all.

[theFlu]

8 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

It may be that everyone considers cheesy to mean, “the things I won’t do.” So far the poll is consistent with that.

It's a tricky question, no doubt, but I can consider things I'm doing cheesy. There's a bit of a mix in my head, mostly in terms of what the game allows and is intended to do.

Zeds beating on a wall, me behind it: must be fine. Depends a little on how I got in, diagonal jumps are a thing for me but not for zeds. But .. fine.

 

If I've sealed myself inside a solid concrete cube, there's the first sign of "cheesy" .. but that's only "cheesy because breathing" and "you wouldn't for real". So, not breaking game mechanics yet, but a little cheesy.

 

Me on top of said solid concrete cube; with some form of bird protection. Now the zeds have been neutered completely. They're running around, beating random walls, and will have no chance of getting to me before the night's over. At this point I'm cheesing the intended mechanics. The zeds are just too weak to threaten me.

 

Me on top of the concrete cube, with a self-made bridge leading to it, from a suitable staircase. Now I'm cheesing by knowing the AI. I know they'll leave the cube alone and fall in line. Still completely within the mechanics, but also a bit of dairy.

 

etc.. Melee position with an ele fence on top.. great meleeable fortifications are strong af, and rely on knowing that a partial block in a space prevents the zeds from crawling into that space. This .. is still not "breaking" the zeds, but kinda pure cheese due to exploiting a mechanic that isn't really realistic. The ele fence is just icing on the top, makes the zeds completely unable to do anything.

 

Then the purest of cheeses; blocks the zeds are mistaken about, JaWoodle's force field etc. Half blocks designed to have zeds just run down off. Water corridors you can shoot along. Terrain blocks as pathing "guides" - zeds wont touch terrain if there's any other option, no matter how expensive. Basically exploiting what are essentially bugs or at least features in a poor state. "Floating" blocks aren't really a problem next to these, at least those the zeds can mostly break...

 

I didn't vote, so I'm not That one.

[warmer]

4 hours ago, CoolJ said:

For hordes, I tend to just build a single block hallway about ten blocks long. I elevate it by two blocks so the zombies path down the hallway directly at me. Once I get access to electric fences, I put those across the path. Then I shoot every single zombie in the head. It's cheap. It's simple. I don't really consider it to be cheese because if I run out of ammo, I'm pretty much dead. .

I wouldn't call that cheese. That seems like a really logical way to deal with it. I am more referring to game mechanics you couldn't recreate in real life, or exploiting a bug in the AI pathing.

Edited July 16, 2023 by warmer (see edit history)

[Khissi]

I think I only ever used the floating block idea in a17 and early a18.  I was learning more and more about zombie AI and trial and error brought me to the bases I tend to use now.  From studying how they move and what they do, I know the AI directs them to try to get to your level first, so, I make sure they mostly come from one direction.  I raise my bases. Tactical decision...

 

I make the area I'm going to be standing in solid, dig down to stone and start building from there so I have a firm foundation under me.  I sometimes use stairs, sometimes ladder/stair combination, sometimes they are jumping stairs, others they will come smoothly up.  But, I love melee for early hoards, save that ammo for when you really, really need it, and, with that in mind, I have them run down pole blocks laid lengthwise to get to me.  That way, I can knock them off.  They are perfectly able to get to me, but I can knock them down so they have to come up again.  Tactical advantage or cheese?...

 

I have to repair the bars I use to protect my fighting position until I'm high enough or rich enough to buy electric fences to hold them in place and keep them from beating on the bars and me, but some people would say cheese just because I can knock them down.  For me, that's tactics... I get higher level, use steel so the base can withstand those feral/rad zombie fists and demo explosions.  Is that cheese?

 

I don't know or I'm not sure if any of that could be used in reality... dig to rock?  Ladders or stairs. Is that a bug in their pathing?  Electric fences and dart traps and...  Or, am I using my slightly less rotten brain.  It's all relative.

[Stranded_Napkin]

I've done both. Back in the day when you could see the wires, lol, you could set them up and pretend it was a suspended base. For the most part I cheese the AI now. The zombies still path better than most people do, so traditional bases where you defend on all sides are not as effective. Most playthroughs I've seen, the player creates a single fighting position. Hell, my base snakes around and the zombies have no problems with all the turns. Floating blocks still get busted out so I don't see those type of bases and being too gamebreaking. I say that and Z Nation freaking made a base that has both fighting positions and a way to make them all huddle below him.

 

Long story short, play the game how you like. It's just more ways to play through the game. More fun to be had.

[Syphon583]

17 hours ago, Stranded_Napkin said:

For the most part I cheese the AI now. The zombies still path better than most people do, so traditional bases where you defend on all sides are not as effective. Most playthroughs I've seen, the player creates a single fighting position. Hell, my base snakes around and the zombies have no problems with all the turns.

Do people really see that as cheesing though? In my mind, cheesing is using blocks in a way to circumvent zombie behavior or make it completely impossible for zombie to get to you, i.e. the floating base. No judgements, of course. I'm all for allowing players to play how they want with the tools that they are given. But clearly, the AI has no way to combat a floating base.

 

They've purposely coded zombie pathing to find the quickest route to you. We have traps designed to damage/kill zombies along said path. Hell, TFP partly market this game as tower defense, which in its very nature, is a line of increasingly difficult zombies running along a path and the player trying to kill them before they reach you. Pretty sure this is intentional. I don't even see nerd-polling or knocking out a door and placing a hatch as cheesing. The world has literally given you the tools to do so. You're a smart player to use those tools and the zombies can still technically get to you given they have the time to do it.

[Riamus]

In my opinion, it is only cheesing if you are doing something that allows you to avoid something that you aren't supposed to avoid, such as creating a base that zombies cannot get to (like underground before zombies could dig).  I would consider nerd poling to be cheesing if you do it to skip the POI to loot the roof loot room.  On the other hand, I don't consider it cheesing to use nerd poling to get back up the side of a building you fell off instead of running through the entire building to get back where you were.

 

Using a base design that works that still provides a way for the zombies to get to you isn't cheesing regardless of the design, imo.  I have used a variety of different bases, from single path with hatches to towers to multiple paths with automated defenses to a simple square building with rails and the to edge so I can aim below me at the zombies at the walls.  Using different designs is fun even if some aren't as good.  My favorites still include blade traps. 😁

 

However, there isn't any reason why anyone should be telling others how they should put shouldn't play the game.  If people want to cheese the game, that is their choice.  I don't have to play with them or do the same thing.  If the devs change things so you can't cheese the game in a certain way, that is their choice but it isn't our place to say what is right or wrong.  Let everyone enjoy playing the game the way they want.

 

The game also includes god mode and even if players want to play in that mode so they don't die, that is cheesing but it's their choice as long as it isn't a PVP game.  The only game I ever played at least sometimes in god mode was Rise of the Triad (RotT) in the 90s.  But that was because your character had his hand out and shot powers out of it, which was fun.  Besides, it was a power up you could get even without cheat codes.  Of course, the game also had dog mode.  Yes, you were a dog and your dog nose was visible as you ran around.  It was a fun game that didn't take itself too seriously. 😀

Edited July 28, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)