What was the point of the water change?

[JRaskal]

1 hour ago, Ramethzer0 said:

 

While I wont challenge your opinion, I would challenge that it did bring back a focus on older gameplay that needed fine tuning.  For instance, with the water scarcity and combat wounds, I have to be a lot more wary of wellness again.   This was something that was very much lost in A17 when the old perk system went away.

 

And the skill versus luck thing is a complex issue.   Skill is something that feels more applicable to the efficiency in killing zeds, and the hoarding resources.  It doesn't really have much effect outside of that.  Everything else is about familiarity and game knowledge.   If you're a veteran and you find that you're constantly running a treadmill of similar and familiar content, then of course its going to feel boring.   Luck seems to apply more to loot and its quality, and while that can be a harsh mistress, there are plenty of examples of folks that have found the opposite to be true.   Case in point, the guy who ran around and focused entirely on looting books so they could skip the early game gear crunch.   It goes both ways.

 

I mean you pick and choose your battles still, and that is the essence of action.  And if you feel if that is still tedious and boring maybe its time to move on?

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, JRaskal said:

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

 

Some people also believe poker is a game of luck 😉. Start a new game and put 2 perk points into INT so that you can immediately put 2 other perk points into lockpicking (yes, lockpicking, this is not a mistake). Then just loot lots of mailboxes or look for magazines. I guarantee you that you will have a forge in no time and your engineering crafting skill will be ahead of all the other crafting skills that you didn't put perk points into. 

 

And you are not stuck. You can buy or find steel clubs long before any demo turns up even if you can't craft them.

 

 

[Kalen]

9 hours ago, JRaskal said:

Not my experience. I'm not saying the old system was perfect, but the new one is just tedious and boring and adds nothing really in terms of game play. It doesn't require skill, it's just purely based on luck. Same with the new progression system. if you can't find the right books, you just not progress. No furnace, no vehicles, no food no nothing.

 

I doubt the change was intended to be overcome with skill or luck.  I would guess the change was intended to make you have to think about water.  In the old system, you didn't have to think about it at all.... you passively solved your early game water issues with barely a thought.   Now, its still not terribly difficult to solve your water issues, but you do have to think about it for a bit in the early game.   If that was the intent of the change, then I'd say it was successful.

 

I still have issues with the change from a realism perspective, which I've brought up in other threads, but overall, I'd say the change has improved the early game experience.  In a survival game, you should have to think about food & water.

 

[Ramethzer0]

15 hours ago, JRaskal said:

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

 

I've never been in a situation where I had to smack a demo with a wooden club, lol.    That just sounds ridiculous.   Also, the crafting books you find are contextual to the perks you have already filled in.

 

I don't even think were playing the same game at this point.   It feels like you're just repeating your argument without taking anything into consideration.

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[RStarphoenix]

16 hours ago, JRaskal said:

There was always luck involved in the loot system. That's at the core of the game. But until now you could make up for bad luck by choosing the right talents.

 

Now you're completely at the mercy of the RNG. If you can't find the right books you might not even be able to build a forge or a workbench, let alone a vehicle of some kind. You can try and focus on looking for books, but if you don't find the right ones, you're stuck hitting demolisher zombies with level 2 wooden clubs and there's nothing you can do against that.

You are not actually at the mercy of RNG as much as you think. Whatever crafting books you find (in the case of clubs & bats, Heavy Hitters) are tied into the Pummel Pete perk combined with some help from Lucky Looter. If you are a perfect 0 in all the perks, Lucky Looter will boost your odds of everything via RNG (so you'll find a little bit of everything). But if you pump a point or two into Pummel Pete, it skews the books in favor of Heavy Hitters (you may still find others, but your odds are much improved). So you can still take the perks you did in Alpha 20 and earlier to still get the better quality clubs/bats, just not in the method.

Same is true for workstation books (the game even tells you Lockpicking + Engineering perks will skew books in favor of Forge Ahead books to speed up getting those workstations build). Same idea for all the other things in the game now.

While there is still RNG in everything, we do have a measure of control over it in Alpha 21 by choosing our perks to nudge the loot tables in the direction(s) we want.

Edited October 26, 2023 by RStarphoenix (see edit history)

[JRaskal]

6 hours ago, RStarphoenix said:

You are not actually at the mercy of RNG as much as you think. Whatever crafting books you find (in the case of clubs & bats, Heavy Hitters) are tied into the Pummel Pete perk combined with some help from Lucky Looter. If you are a perfect 0 in all the perks, Lucky Looter will boost your odds of everything via RNG (so you'll find a little bit of everything). But if you pump a point or two into Pummel Pete, it skews the books in favor of Heavy Hitters (you may still find others, but your odds are much improved). So you can still take the perks you did in Alpha 20 and earlier to still get the better quality clubs/bats, just not in the method.

Same is true for workstation books (the game even tells you Lockpicking + Engineering perks will skew books in favor of Forge Ahead books to speed up getting those workstations build). Same idea for all the other things in the game now.

While there is still RNG in everything, we do have a measure of control over it in Alpha 21 by choosing our perks to nudge the loot tables in the direction(s) we want.

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

 

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

[Ramethzer0]

2 hours ago, JRaskal said:

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

 

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

 

 

No, that's not what he said at all.   It's not what either of us said.    You lept so far past the goalpost it confirmed my suspicions.

[Roland]

6 hours ago, JRaskal said:

So you're saying i just need to have 3 stats maxed (PER for LL, STR for PP and INT for LP + Eng) to have a somewhat better chance to someday have both the skills needed to build something decent AND the means to craft the required ingredients? That doesn't strike you as exactly what I was describing was wrong with the system?

 

You can try and deny it all you want, but the new system just makes the game progression slower and more frustrating, because it's designed to that end. It's not the first time I've seen developers try and make game progression slower, so the game would last longer, but it never ever worked and always ended up in the game losing public appeal. Just look at what happened to Diablo 4.

The progression is barely slower for those who like to rush. In fact, there are threads here calling for a nerf to the perk boost for finding the mags that you need because it is too much of a boost. 
 

It is true that the devs are altering things to make it so players spend some time at each stage of development. But it is a far cry from being so slow and tedious of a progression that it is losing public appeal. What it really sounds like is that you want to skip the whole early game and get right to the top tier building materials and capabilities from the start.  If that’s the case then why not just enable the creative menu and play the aspect of the game you like best without any hindrance?

 

The fact is that this is a game about progression and as the game gets polished it is likely going to get harder to skip the progression aspect of the game like you could in times past. Just because you skipped to the good stuff easily in the past doesn’t mean the game was ever intended to be played that way. Why should the devs allow people to ignore the progression piece of the game if progressing is one of the main points?  
 

You want a sandbox. So enable sandbox mode and have at it. Everything you find tedious melts away once the creative menu is turned on. Do it and leave the default survival game to those who actually enjoy the journey of becoming an epic character over a moderate period of time. The vast majority of people here are actually hoping for changes or options that will lengthen the progression even more (nerfing quest rewards, nerfing magazine perk boost, etc). You already have the option tailor made to the playstyle you want. Flip that switch. Creative Menu. Go. 

[Arez]

A21 newb here.

 

Last week or so I downloaded and started playing A16.4, just to get a feeling for the flavor.

 

So I'm out exploring, looting as I work my way from the desert to the forest, not really paying attention. I grab the glass jars I had picked up along the way and filled them up in a river...again, not really paying attention. I eventually find a group of houses and one of them has a cooking pot, so I thought it was a perfect time to cook me up some fresh water. 

 

I click the max button on the murky water in the campfire and it said "52". Day 2 and I have 52 jars of fresh water? 🤣

 

No wonder everybody is losing their minds over the empty jars. Was thirst ever a concern before the water changes?

[Old Crow]

4 minutes ago, Arez said:

A21 newb here.

 

Last week or so I downloaded and started playing A16.4, just to get a feeling for the flavor.

 

So I'm out exploring, looting as I work my way from the desert to the forest, not really paying attention. I grab the glass jars I had picked up along the way and filled them up in a river...again, not really paying attention. I eventually find a group of houses and one of them has a cooking pot, so I thought it was a perfect time to cook me up some fresh water. 

 

I click the max button on the murky water in the campfire and it said "52". Day 2 and I have 52 jars of fresh water? 🤣

 

No wonder everybody is losing their minds over the empty jars. Was thirst ever a concern before the water changes?

 

It's more of a case of not having a way to gather and carry water in a realistic way anymore. On the one hand, not having empty jars brings things in line with other things, as using oil, gasoline, or food doesn't leave behind an empty container. On the other hand, doing something so unrealistic doesn't make sense, and removing them and adding dew collectors didn't really fix the problem the Fun Pimps believed we were having. Water is just as easy to get as it was prior to the removal of jars, it's just easy in a different way now.

 

And on the third hand (which is my hand), TFP only seem to care about and add something realistic, if it's realism that is detrimental to the player. Beneficial realism? They're not so interested in it. That's what I find annoying about it.

[Kosmic Kerman]

8 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

It's more of a case of not having a way to gather and carry water in a realistic way anymore.

 

Please. The relative scarcity of water in A21 is what most people have been complaining about. This is obvious from all of the posts with people moaning about being thirsty, not having enough water for duct tape, problems with water in MP, etc.  Besides, the only reason anyone professes to care about a "realistic way" to gather and carry water is because of its importance to certain recipes. If water was only needed for survival, players would be fine with what they scavenged . The inability to gather water from rivers and lakes is just an abstraction to further gameplay--in the same way that the game does not have a weight limit for what you can carry.

 

Consider this thought experiment:  instead of changing jars or the availability of water TFP simply changed the non-cooking crafting recipes and replaced water with some other item with similar scarcity as water in A21. Duct tape would still be harder to come by early game and explosive arrows, etc. would still be harder to mass produce.  In this scenario, most of the people complaining about water and jars would still be complaining. Because the issue is not "realism" but how the changes affected the playstyle of certain players. Now, no doubt some people would argue that it was not "realistic" to replace water with whatever the new ingredient is but the "realism" argument is just a crutch.

 

What's important is not whether the game is realistic but whether it's fun to play. As currently designed, the player is required to make choices early game due to a limited resource--water. The player must choose whether water will be used for cooking or crafting. They no longer have an infinite supply to make as much duct tape or whatever else early game. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing about the balance TFP has struck here but it has very little to do with "realism" and everything to do with scarcity. 

 

 

 

 

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Old Crow said:

 

It's more of a case of not having a way to gather and carry water in a realistic way anymore.

 

I think the "anymore" is the biggest issue really. There are many veterans who have made the switch in their brain and are not bothered by the inability to fill a container of water directly from a lake or river. New players seem to take the limitation in stride along with many of the other nonrealistic elements that are for the sake of gameplay. So really, the only problem comes from those veterans who can't get past the "anymore".

 

10 hours ago, Old Crow said:

On the other hand, doing something so unrealistic doesn't make sense, and removing them and adding dew collectors didn't really fix the problem the Fun Pimps believed we were having. Water is just as easy to get as it was prior to the removal of jars, it's just easy in a different way now.

 

Gotta disagree here. If water is just as easy but just in a different way then I challenge you to get 54 jars of fresh water by day 2 in your different way....

 

I'm not sure what problem you believe TFP believed we were having but someone else said it best. Pre A21 nobody had to even think about water. Even Arez said that he was just playing and picking up jars as he went, found a cooking pot, and bam without any effort or thought put toward water he had 54 jars of drinkable water by day two. That sounds pretty typical of pre-A21 gameplay for most people. As of A21 you have to at least think about water. Even if you are looting enough to drink are you looting enough to also craft or are there times when you have to choose between crafting and drinking? That choice has appeared for me several times as of A21 when it NEVER happened once from A6 - A20. I'm betting it has been similar for most players. If you do choose to build dew collectors to supplement your water needs then once again you are actively thinking about your water needs and taking action to satisfy your needs. The process of building a dew collector might not be hard (especially for a veteran) but it does compete with other actions you feel you need to take during the early game.

 

So again, I'm not sure what you mean by "easy to get" but like I said, I doubt you could obtain 54 jars of fresh water by day 2 in A21 and I know that while not being a difficult challenge type of activity, building a dew collector does take more effort and time than passively scooping up 50+ jars while looting containers while clearing pois and then filling them all at once and sticking them on the fire to boil.

 

10 hours ago, Old Crow said:

And on the third hand (which is my hand), TFP only seem to care about and add something realistic, if it's realism that is detrimental to the player. Beneficial realism? They're not so interested in it. That's what I find annoying about it.

 

Yeah, you seem to be in the camp of people who think there is some kind of adversarial attitude by the developers towards the players. You're welcome to your opinion but you couldn't be more wrong.
 

As for ignoring realism issues when they benefit the player what about unlimited carrying weight in our backpacks or being able to pick up vehicles into our backpacks and place them again or nerdpoling or having everlasting durability of our gear or never having to sleep, or crops grow in days without irrigation, or food never spoils, or upgrading blocks directly from one type to another, or crafting whole vehicles on a workbench, or crafting anything where it self crafts without you consciously doing anything and being able leave and do other things while waiting for the crafting to be done. 
 

 

 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

I think the "anymore" is the biggest issue really. There are many veterans who have made the switch in their brain and are not bothered by the inability to fill a container of water directly from a lake or river. New players seem to take the limitation in stride along with many of the other nonrealistic elements that are for the sake of gameplay. So really, the only problem comes from those veterans who can't get past the "anymore".

I don't think it's just veterans. If you're coming from another game where you can collect water with a flask, for example, you're going to wonder why the developers of this game didn't implement that.

 

[Roland]

16 minutes ago, RipClaw said:

I don't think it's just veterans. If you're coming from another game where you can collect water with a flask, for example, you're going to wonder why the developers of this game didn't implement that.

 

Wondering is different than what we’ve seen here from some veterans. When I’ve played Minecraft or Valheim I’ve wondered why I don’t have to drink anything at all and I never get thirsty even though I get hungry. But then I just accept it as the ruleset for those games and play. I suspect the same is true for people who are new to this one. They figure out the rules, accept them, and play. It’s just like how someone might wonder why we don’t need to water crops for them to grow when they come from other games that have farming. They wonder but they don’t get outraged. 

Edited October 27, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

I don't think it's just veterans. If you're coming from another game where you can collect water with a flask, for example, you're going to wonder why the developers of this game didn't implement that.

 

 

I've heard the canteen idea before.  It's not bullet proof and also comes with other considerations as well.  Not saying it couldn't work but would need to be well designed.

 

For example, how much can you fill a canteen?  How well does it scale with the rest of the game as far as water needs are concerned?  Do players use canteen water for crafting or only drinking?  What about teas?  Is it fun?

[Old Crow]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I think the "anymore" is the biggest issue really. There are many veterans who have made the switch in their brain and are not bothered by the inability to fill a

 

Gotta disagree here. If water is just as easy but just in a different way then I challenge you to get 54 jars of fresh water by day 2 in your different way....

 

I'm not sure what problem you believe TFP believed we were having but someone else said it best. Pre A21 nobody had to even think about water. Even Arez said that he was just playing and picking up jars as he went, found a cooking pot, and bam without any effort or thought put toward water he had 54 jars of drinkable water by day two. That sounds pretty typical of pre-A21 gameplay for most people. As of A21 you have to at least think about water. Even if you are looting enough to drink are you looting enough to also craft or are there times when you have to choose between crafting and drinking? That choice has appeared for me several times as of A21 when it NEVER happened once from A6 - A20. I'm betting it has been similar for most players. If you do choose to build dew collectors to supplement your water needs then once again you are actively thinking about your water needs and taking action to satisfy your needs. The process of building a dew collector might not be hard (especially for a veteran) but it does compete with other actions you feel you need to take during the early game.

 

So again, I'm not sure what you mean by "easy to get" but like I said, I doubt you could obtain 54 jars of fresh water by day 2 in A21 and I know that while not being a difficult challenge type of activity, building a dew collector does take more effort and time than passively scooping up 50+ jars while looting containers while clearing pois and then filling them all at once and sticking them on the fire to boil.

 

 

Yeah, you seem to be in the camp of people who think there is some kind of adversarial attitude by the developers towards the players. You're welcome to your opinion but you couldn't be more wrong.
 

As for ignoring realism issues when they benefit the player what about unlimited carrying weight in our backpacks or being able to pick up vehicles into our backpacks and place them again or nerdpoling or having everlasting durability of our gear or never having to sleep, or crops grow in days without irrigation, or food never spoils, or upgrading blocks directly from one type to another, or crafting whole vehicles on a workbench, or crafting anything where it self crafts without you consciously doing anything and being able leave and do other things while waiting for the crafting to be done. 
 

 

 

 

If you do enough looting, hitting every toilet and liquor pile you find, then yeah, I bet you could find around 54 bottles of murky water by then. The problem I'm referring to is the one TFP literally told us themselves. I'm not making problems up here, like you seem to believe.

 

As for ignoring realism, what I'm referring to is, if there's something realistic they could add that would be beneficial to players, they say they won't add it (example, players crawling through 1 block high spaces). But if it's something realistic that is detrimental to the player (ridiculously high vehicle damage from hitting something in a vehicle), then they're all for adding it.

[Vaeliorin]

2 hours ago, Old Crow said:

players crawling through 1 block high spaces

This used to be a thing, but they got rid of it (I believe because zombies couldn't go through 1 block high spaces, hence it was "unfair")

[Old Crow]

7 hours ago, Vaeliorin said:

This used to be a thing, but they got rid of it (I believe because zombies couldn't go through 1 block high spaces, hence it was "unfair")

 

Now it's the other way around. We can't, but zombies can.

[mr.devolver]

On 10/23/2023 at 3:15 AM, meganoth said:

 

Huh, why "If we could" ? We have been speculating all the time, and even better, because we had some information from devs and Roland, our speculation is actually based on a some facts!

 

 

Another strange sentence. Why are you looking for "reasons related to future plans" ? The reasons are known right now and have nothing to do with any future plans.

 

 

I don't think there will ever be a realistical explanation offered. Just like blood-moon will never be explained. And especially zombie metabolism will never be explained. If you are looking for a realistic game you are in the wrong place.

 

 

 

Bah, have a cookie for your metabolism.

[Vypoldin]

This is dumb.  It rains all the time, and there are bodies of water everywhere yet, I can only drink water from a glass jar found in a house?

Then the glass jar vanishes?  Okay, I can't find a tin can?  Or a milk jug?  Or a bucket?

 

Water is not hard to find in the environment.  It's everywhere.  It just seems that the character is to stupid to figure out how to hold it.  

 

If the goal is make water harder to obtain, then don't put it everywhere.   You can't have daily rainfall and then say water is hard to find.   

 

And why do you need a filter for rainwater?  You don't.. By definition it's already distilled.   

 

Scum (the game) has it figured out.   You don't even have to boil all the water... if you know how to find, and identify fresh water.  

 

 

[RStarphoenix]

On 6/16/2023 at 5:48 PM, meganoth said:

Since they fill up in the same time as plants grow up the easiest option is to harvest them at the same time you harvest your farm plots (if you have any), i.e. only every 3 days.

 

 

the dew collector fills 1 jar per 8 hours of game time... so it'll max out after 1 full game day. which means you'd have to skip 2 days of collecting water to time it with farm plots

[8_Hussars]

21 hours ago, Vypoldin said:

And why do you need a filter for rainwater?  You don't.. By definition it's already distilled.  

Rainwater can pick up contaminants from the air when it falls, so it loses its purity and no longer remains distilled water and although industry activity is likely not a factor acid rain could exist.

FWIW, with the radiation zones, the virus, or whatever lore seems appropriate; I consider natural water sources to be contaminated in 7d2d for immersion purposes.

Having said that I would prefer water being even more difficult.  Having to treat water with filters to remove particulates and parasitical organisms and boiling to kill bacteria and viruses.

[Rotor]

2 hours ago, 8_Hussars said:

Having said that I would prefer water being even more difficult.  Having to treat water with filters to remove particulates and parasitical organisms and boiling to kill bacteria and viruses.

 

Yep, just let me make my filters, as I should be able to do so.  All the elements for filters are already in the game anyways.

 

I know, I know, there is mod.

[zztong]

On 11/5/2023 at 12:01 PM, Vypoldin said:

And why do you need a filter for rainwater?  You don't.. By definition it's already distilled.

 

It was water vapor until it condensed on a particle of dirt, dust, etc. That particle could even be something radioactive.

 

The bigger problem is the rainwater collection, which is exposed to insects, bird poop, falling twigs, blowing leaves, and so forth that can introduce all sorts of life. We tend to fill rain barrels and cisterns from the runoff of roofs. Birds poop on the roofs. There's bacteria in bird poop. You're still going to have to boil rainwater.

 

In Game, Boiled Water would be neat if it had like a 3% chance of dysentery, and then let Iron Gut knock that down to zero. Then change the game's "Mineral Water" into Potable Water.

 

The best tool for making potable water in the game should be the Chemistry Station.

 

Somebody suggested it was possible to find healthy "fresh water" in the wilderness. Moving water is better than stagnant water, but it's still full of life, minerals, and possibly contaminates.

Edited November 7, 2023 by zztong (see edit history)