What was the point of the water change?

[Kalen]

On 9/20/2023 at 4:56 PM, meganoth said:

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

While this is true... to me it's a false equivalency.  You don't find open pools of gas, stews, or acid to collect.   You do find open water.   I find it a little immersion breaking to be thirsty early game and walk past a pool of water that I can do nothing with.

 

Actually, back in the day, there was a lot of discussion about why when you ate your stew you didn't get a jar back.   It was explained that it was a technical limitation.  Generally people can accept technical limitations.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Kalen (see edit history)

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

While this is true... to me it's a false equivalency.  You don't find open pools of gas, stews, or acid to collect.   You do find open water.   I find it a little immersion breaking to be thirsty early game and walk past a pool of water that I can do nothing with.

 

You can drink directly from that pool of water. Kind of an important part to leave out when trying to show a false equivalency and claim an immersion breaking condition when you are thirsty. If you're thirsty and concerned about your immersion then go drink from the pool. Disaster abated.

 

There are gas pumps but you can't directly fill your car from them. You have to use a large pot to cook your stew but you can't eat directly from the pot. So the equivalency isn't about attempting to make the gathering process the same for everything. The equivalency is about having no empty containers as physical objects in the game and in that sense they succeeded in unifying all containers of consumables in the game.

 

I don't disagree that not being able to fill a jar or a pot with water from a pool and take it home to boil is an artificial limitation. Games have tons of these as well as cases where real life limitations are ignored for the sake of fun.

[Kalen]

3 minutes ago, Roland said:

You can drink directly from that pool of water. Kind of an important part to leave out when trying to show a false equivalency and claim an immersion breaking condition when you are thirsty. If you're thirsty and concerned about your immersion then go drink from the pool. Disaster abated.

 

I have found that I can't always drink from a pool.   Not sure if thats just a bug or something intentional.   Not exactly what I'd call a disaster... but I appreciate your concern.  

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

There are gas pumps but you can't directly fill your car from them.

 

But you can loot gas cans from them.... you can't loot jars of water from a pond.   If you could, it would be equivalent.

 

6 minutes ago, Roland said:

The equivalency is about having no empty containers as physical objects in the game and in that sense they succeeded in unifying all containers of consumables in the game.

 

In your opinion its equivalent, which is fine.   I don't agree.   In my opinion resources like gas don't need an empty container.  Start filling the world with pools of gas and my opinion would certainly change.  It would actually be kind of useful if there were empty gas containers, if you could then use them to fill up with water.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that removing jars was really a big deal.   I just find the reasoning of "making it like other containers" not very compelling.

[ZehMatt]

On 9/20/2023 at 11:56 PM, meganoth said:

 

No, you don't **have to** mod. Most people notice stuff they don't like in a game, shrug, and continue. If it is too much stuff they recognize that the game isn't for them and stop playing that game. Modding is just another alternative where you can reduce stuff you don't like.

 

It seems you have the game since 2017 at least. Has it taken you 5 years to notice that things can change and having played earlier versions makes those changes stick out 😉 ? When you buy into EA when the game is far from finished you have to expect that.

 

By the way, did you notice the absence of empty gas cans? Empty bowls (for stews for example)? Empty pure water bottles? Empty acid bottles?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The only way to somewhat enjoy this game is by using mods, that's just the current state of the game, not everything is bad but for a "survival horde crafting game" its just not nailing it. Also did you just assume because I joined 2017 this forum that I have the game since 2017? No.

 

What has EA to do with this game? Why even bring up EA? Also did I notice those things? I absolutely did and I don't like it, I brought up only the glass jars as that is the most recent change and this is what this thread is about, isn't it? 

 

I'm also not surprised that hardcore fans are defending this, I believe that if the worst game ever would be put on Steam there will be always someone defending it no matter how bad it is, shiny graphics don't make a good game. Also I'm just expressing my opinion here, I do realize that they are not going to go back on this, I mean when did the devs ever listen to the community? They made it quite clear that their way is the only way and we must play the game the way they see best.

Edited September 22, 2023 by ZehMatt
Typo (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

28 minutes ago, ZehMatt said:

What has EA to do with this game? Why even bring up EA?

to clarify:

Early Access. Not the game developer/publisher.

7D2D is an early access game.

This is confused so often even when it should be clear by context, it should never be abbreviated in the first place around here. 😀

Edited September 22, 2023 by meilodasreh (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

1 hour ago, Roland said:

Games have tons of these as well as cases where real life limitations are ignored for the sake of fun.

agreed. But that's the whole essence of this discussion.

Some people think stuff is being done for the sake of / to increase fun, and when they indeed have more fun, they're fine.

But there's other people (these who are complaining) who don't have more fun then, and from their point of view fun is sacrificed to gain consistency or whatever.

None of both perspectives is more true or false than the other.

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Kalen said:

 

I have found that I can't always drink from a pool.   Not sure if thats just a bug or something intentional.   Not exactly what I'd call a disaster... but I appreciate your concern.  

 

But you can loot gas cans from them.... you can't loot jars of water from a pond.   If you could, it would be equivalent.

 

 

In your opinion its equivalent, which is fine.   I don't agree.   In my opinion resources like gas don't need an empty container.  Start filling the world with pools of gas and my opinion would certainly change.  It would actually be kind of useful if there were empty gas containers, if you could then use them to fill up with water.

 

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that removing jars was really a big deal.   I just find the reasoning of "making it like other containers" not very compelling.

 

I 100% agree with you that the method of gathering the various resources in the game are not equivalent. I've never claimed that they are nor that the devs want to make gathering water the same as collecting acid or gas or stew. That has never been in question nor a goal of the devs.

What was a goal was to have all containers of consumables be represented in the game in the same way and in this goal they succeeded. Glass jars now exist in the game in exactly the same manner that every consumable container exists and when you consume water or gas or acid or stew, etc., all of these items operate consistently. That has always been the beginning and end of the comparison for equivalency.

 

If you want to add in the method of how resources are gathered in order to say that there is no equivalency then I agree with you. How can I not since it is absolutely obvious that the devs have never tried, are not trying, and have no plans to try and bring equivalency to resource gathering? 

 

As to whether the game is better or worse for how consumable containers are represented, that will vary from player to player. I wouldn't be opposed to that being changed and I never really cared that there wasn't equivalency so I'm definitely not trying to convince people that the change is good or bad. I'm just stating that glass jars now exist in the game exactly like everything else that contain stuff you use up and that for whatever reason that was a goal of the developers.

[Kalen]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

As to whether the game is better or worse for how consumable containers are represented, that will vary from player to player. I wouldn't be opposed to that being changed and I never really cared that there wasn't equivalency so I'm definitely not trying to convince people that the change is good or bad. I'm just stating that glass jars now exist in the game exactly like everything else that contain stuff you use up and that for whatever reason that was a goal of the developers.

 

I gotcha.... just seems odd for the developers to be concerned with consistency in how something is consumed but not be concerned with consistency in how its gathered.

 

At the end of they day, the overall impact of the change is minimal (once you get used to it).   I'm just not sure the game is better for it.

[meilodasreh]

2 minutes ago, Kalen said:

the overall impact of the change is minimal (once you get used to it).   I'm just not sure the game is better for it.

Yes, this.

Me myself did recently notice that there's a difference in my brain between how it works and how it feels.

The game I mean, not my brain.

 

...well to be honest, also my brain.

 

So in the end I'm fine with it more or less, I can accept all its lil faults and live on.

...again, the game and also my brain.

[meganoth]

9 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

The only way to somewhat enjoy this game is by using mods, that's just the current state of the game, not everything is bad but for a "survival horde crafting game" its just not nailing it. Also did you just assume because I joined 2017 this forum that I have the game since 2017? No.

 

Yes, that was just a guess because of your join date.

 

9 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

What has EA to do with this game? Why even bring up EA? Also did I notice those things? I absolutely did and I don't like it, I brought up only the glass jars as that is the most recent change and this is what this thread is about, isn't it? 

 

Good. Since you had noticed and don't like them either then at least your discomfort is not the "I don't like changes"-syndrom that seems to be the reason some players just can't cope well with E(early)Access games.

9 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

I'm also not surprised that hardcore fans are defending this, I believe that if the worst game ever would be put on Steam there will be always someone defending it no matter how bad it is, shiny graphics don't make a good game.

 

Did removing the jars somehow make the graphics better?

 

 

 

 

[Riamus]

The thing that I think gets overlooked often in these discussions about glass jars is that the thing people don't like is that they can't gather water from a water source anymore.  They could have kept that mechanic and still gotten rid of glass jars and I doubt many people would have complained that the jars disappeared.  I think the issue isn't really about glass jars but about the mechanic of getting water being changed.

[Ramethzer0]

11 hours ago, ZehMatt said:

 

The only way to somewhat enjoy this game is by using mods, that's just the current state of the game, not everything is bad but for a "survival horde crafting game" its just not nailing it.    + other salt

 

 

Speak for yourself.   Not everyone on this forum is failing their own expectations.

36 minutes ago, Riamus said:

The thing that I think gets overlooked often in these discussions about glass jars is that the thing people don't like is that they can't gather water from a water source anymore.  They could have kept that mechanic and still gotten rid of glass jars and I doubt many people would have complained that the jars disappeared.  I think the issue isn't really about glass jars but about the mechanic of getting water being changed.

 

I realize that I'm serving up a good chunk of cynicism, but there is an entire subset of very loud gamers that refuse to think outside of chimpanzee level binary.   If good = not bad.  If bad = not good.   Ergo, Banana good.  Monke good.

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Riamus said:

The thing that I think gets overlooked often in these discussions about glass jars is that the thing people don't like is that they can't gather water from a water source anymore.  They could have kept that mechanic and still gotten rid of glass jars and I doubt many people would have complained that the jars disappeared.  I think the issue isn't really about glass jars but about the mechanic of getting water being changed.

 

Zematt above has explicitly mentioned that he has an issue with missing containers. And my impression is different, I also see many players specifically complain about the jars being gone, and also many that complain about both.

 

According to Roland water jars were specifically removed to remove jars 😉. I.e. to make all jars, bottles and cups "equal". A second objective was to make water a somewhat valuable resource instead of triviallly infinite. For that they had to put a shackle on the infinite sources called lakes. Maybe there are other ways to do that, but TFP came up with this rather straightforward way.

 

So no, they could not have kept the mechanic. With endless bottled water from lakes they would have to throw lots of complications in the processing of this water to reach similar goals.

 

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Riamus]

36 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

Zematt above has explicitly mentioned that he has an issue with missing containers. And my impression is different, I also see many players specifically complain about the jars being gone, and also many that complain about both.

 

According to Roland water jars were specifically removed to remove jars 😉. I.e. to make all jars, bottles and cups "equal". A second objective was to make water a somewhat valuable resource instead of triviallly infinite. For that they had to put a shackle on the infinite sources called lakes. Maybe there are other ways to do that, but TFP came up with this rather straightforward way.

 

So no, they could not have kept the mechanic. With endless bottled water from lakes they would have to throw lots of complications in the processing of this water to reach similar goals.

 

 

My point was that a lot of people complain specifically about the jars being gone but is that really the issue for them?  Or is it that they can't get water from lakes and jars were how you did that and so the lack of jars is equated to the lack of gathering water from lakes.  Yes, there are some who specifically mention that not getting a jar back is immersion breaking because, where did it go?  But that applies to all containers and you don't see a lot of people complaining about the other containers, which suggests that this is just a tangential complaint to the main complaint that they can't gather water.

 

I know they wanted to remove jars and also that they wanted water to be harder to get.  My point wasn't that they could have let you gather water and still meet the goal.  My point was that a lack of jars doesn't mean a lack of gathering water.  It's meant to show that jars != water mechanic.  If they didn't want to make water harder to get but only to remove empty jars, they could have made it act the same as getting gas from a gas pump... click on the water and you get a filled jar of water.  Use the water and no empty container.  As was commented on by others, this would make equivalency for both empty containers and gathering the resource.  So the mechanic works without empty jars.  The point I was trying to make was that most people who are upset about not having the glass jars are *most likely* only really upset about the lack of gathering water and are connecting the lack of empty jars with the lack of gathering water even though they are two separate things.

 

Obviously, they had other objectives that just removing jars and so making equivalency in that way wouldn't actually work with the goals they had.  But it shows that jars aren't necessary for the old mechanic to work.

Edited September 23, 2023 by Riamus (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

According to Roland water jars were specifically removed to remove jars 😉

This is fraud. Jars are still in the game. Here is the proof.

 

 

A little realism please. I want to hold a puddle in my hand. 🤪

[meganoth]

8 hours ago, Riamus said:

My point was that a lot of people complain specifically about the jars being gone but is that really the issue for them?  Or is it that they can't get water from lakes and jars were how you did that and so the lack of jars is equated to the lack of gathering water from lakes.  Yes, there are some who specifically mention that not getting a jar back is immersion breaking because, where did it go?  But that applies to all containers and you don't see a lot of people complaining about the other containers, which suggests that this is just a tangential complaint to the main complaint that they can't gather water.

 

Which is a theory that I can't disproove. But I believe that it is the aversity against change and the obvious highlighting a change provokes that makes the disappearance of the jar an issue while the missing gas can does not. It seems a lot of players have never noticed that the gas can has no empty version until you explain it to them, and even then they accept it better because they are used to it and in their brains the abstraction is already working flawlessly.

 

Surely the water collecting issue is a very noticable limitation that irks many. How many? Who knows. If either of our theories is right, we couldn't even ask them simply in a poll because they don't know the actual reason for their protest themselves 😉

 

 

4 hours ago, RipClaw said:

This is fraud. Jars are still in the game. Here is the proof.

 

 

A little realism please. I want to hold a puddle in my hand. 🤪

 

 

A wet hand you can lick from time to time should be enough.

 

[zztong]

10 hours ago, meganoth said:

So no, they could not have kept the mechanic. With endless bottled water from lakes they would have to throw lots of complications in the processing of this water to reach similar goals.

 

Having played both vanilla and with a home-grown mod to allow me to retrieve water from water sources, I don't think you have to complicate water processing unless you want to drag out the water shortage longer for both vanilla and mod'd games.

 

With Vanilla, the first day water shortage is offset by the two bottles of water that you start with in-game. The "drink murky water temptation" period experienced by players lasts another day. Around that time they bring water production online with a Dew Collector and/or a cooking pot that they can now (thankfully) buy at a trader if they haven't found one. The end result is possibly a 1-day period when you might drink murky water on Day 2.

 

Alternatively, I remove the two bottles of water (and the can of chili) that you start with on Day 1. Now the "drink murky water temptation" period starts on day 1 and it lasts until you get a cooking pot and/or a Dew Collector. With my mod, I can carry murky water away from a water source, but it is still murky water. You generally get stable sometime in Day 2 when you get a cooking pot. The end result is a 1-day period when you might drink murky water on Day 1.

 

I suspect the effects of removing the two bottles of water on new players would be frustrating. They don't really know what resources they need and if they don't start with water they may not know what they need. I could see a game option for "New Start" or "Experienced Start" that changed the starting gear, but that is also just an easy modlet.

 

I acknowledge there are long term differences related to other recipes and the production of heat that I have not evaluates. As a person who generally welcomes heat (because it brings me experience), I still tend to make Dew Collectors even though I build near water sources.

[Jost Amman]

The simple solution to all water balncing issues would be to make water evaporate (or spill out) over time from containers (jars) because you can't close them tight enough. That would mean that you could store water, but you wouldn't be able to build a huge stock of water if you're far away from a water source.

 

You're welcome.

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[meilodasreh]

As a sidenote, I want to address to the devs, that a real 7D2D glass jar would be the absolute killer as a merchandise.

 

[Krougal]

So really, trying to make water scarce is a joke, and it seems if they would just give up on it we'd all be better off.

I think @zztong summed up the reality of it perfectly, so I am not going to reiterate all his points here.

As long as there are ponds and rivers and other sources, then there is water. It is silly that we can't gather and boil it.

 

While I am not calling for the return of the jars, as was also said above by @Riamus it would be a simple matter of instead of having us drink when we scoop water with the bare hand, we get a jar of murky water. Yes, the "realists" are screaming "heretic" and others are screaming "but, muh immersion!"  but face it, this game isn't realistic or very immersive.

 

Not being able to use the water in the pond right next to us is as immersion-breaking as having a jar magically appear out of thin air. As was also pointed out, I think while there are some silly peeps who want everything to be literal and realistic and immersive in the game, there are plenty of us who don't need every little detail, this isn't a simulation. We are bent about not being able to grab water and really don't give a rats ass about the jars.

[Javabean867]

9 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

The simple solution to all water balncing issues would be to make water evaporate (or spill out) over time from containers (jars) because you can't close them tight enough. That would mean that you could store water, but you wouldn't be able to build a huge stock of water if you're far away from a water source.

 

You're welcome.

 

I was thinking something different.  You can pull murky water from sources, but it takes 10 murky water to make 1 clean water.

 

Probably get 20 murky water from a water block.

[Adam the Waster]

36 minutes ago, Javabean867 said:

I was thinking something different.  You can pull murky water from sources, but it takes 10 murky water to make 1 clean water.

 

Probably get 20 murky water from a water block.

Rain collected from the dew collector should be murky 

 

That or for the cases of glue that can add alt recipes 

 

Like murky water and bones, cornmeal and bones, 

 

We could also use more uses to cornmeal as well! 

 

"Alpha 22 dev diary and overlord armor plzzz"

[meganoth]

10 hours ago, zztong said:

 

Having played both vanilla and with a home-grown mod to allow me to retrieve water from water sources, I don't think you have to complicate water processing unless you want to drag out the water shortage longer for both vanilla and mod'd games.

 

With Vanilla, the first day water shortage is offset by the two bottles of water that you start with in-game. The "drink murky water temptation" period experienced by players lasts another day. Around that time they bring water production online with a Dew Collector and/or a cooking pot that they can now (thankfully) buy at a trader if they haven't found one. The end result is possibly a 1-day period when you might drink murky water on Day 2.

 

Alternatively, I remove the two bottles of water (and the can of chili) that you start with on Day 1. Now the "drink murky water temptation" period starts on day 1 and it lasts until you get a cooking pot and/or a Dew Collector. With my mod, I can carry murky water away from a water source, but it is still murky water. You generally get stable sometime in Day 2 when you get a cooking pot. The end result is a 1-day period when you might drink murky water on Day 1.

 

I suspect the effects of removing the two bottles of water on new players would be frustrating. They don't really know what resources they need and if they don't start with water they may not know what they need. I could see a game option for "New Start" or "Experienced Start" that changed the starting gear, but that is also just an easy modlet.

 

I acknowledge there are long term differences related to other recipes and the production of heat that I have not evaluates. As a person who generally welcomes heat (because it brings me experience), I still tend to make Dew Collectors even though I build near water sources.

 

If I understand your mod correctly then there is a vast difference to vanilla after day 2:

 

In vanilla you may have enough water to avoid drinking from a pond after 2 day, but you still don't have enough water for all demands and need to choose what to prioritize. Or even buy water to fiill those demands. Water still has value then, you generally won't throw away a water jar that you find. In your mod, as soon as you have the cooking pot then water is infinite.

 

In that case I would say your mod falls short of the goals TFP probably had.

 

 

5 hours ago, Krougal said:

It is silly that we can't gather and boil it

 

Which is essentially a "this is not realistic" argument. Thus it is strange that you seem to describe the other camp you are arguing against as the realists.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 24, 2023 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

7 hours ago, Javabean867 said:

I was thinking something different.  You can pull murky water from sources, but it takes 10 murky water to make 1 clean water.

 

Probably get 20 murky water from a water block.

Still infinite water.

[zztong]

11 hours ago, meganoth said:

If I understand your mod correctly then there is a vast difference to vanilla after day 2:

 

In vanilla you may have enough water to avoid drinking from a pond after 2 day, but you still don't have enough water for all demands and need to choose what to prioritize. Or even buy water to fiill those demands. Water still has value then, you generally won't throw away a water jar that you find. In your mod, as soon as you have the cooking pot then water is infinite.

 

In that case I would say your mod falls short of the goals TFP probably had.

 

You're correct in that my mod doesn't create long-term scarcity. I'm not sure how everyone else plays, but Dew Collectors didn't bring me long-term scarcity either. Water was effectively infinite when I played strictly Vanilla with Dew Collectors. Of course everyone plays differently, but I was overflowing with water at around the 3-4 Dew Collector point.

 

I'm not sure which recipes constitute "all demands." Because of that, I'm not really sure what the long-term scarcity is supposed to be. I see a lot of people complain about mass producing duct tape. I'm not that player. I usually have spare duct tape after the first week of play and needing to make 5-10 more of it wouldn't be a challenge with either water system.

 

I have no doubts my goals differ from TFP's goals. I'm happy to think more about it if perhaps you could tell me what recipe is supposed to be scarce in the middle to late game?

 

You might recall back in A20 when the water system was announced, I pushed back hard -- probably too hard. (Sorry.) These days I'm not pushing, just observing and discussing. Once I got to play A21 with the new system I realized the new system worked -- was playable -- but it still rubs me the wrong way. I'm completely cool with a local mod to fix it.