Goodbye Immersion, Hello Anti-Stealth

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

And building your character to do one thing and that thing failing 50% of the time... feels really REALLY BAD.

 

You do realize that when you blatantly exaggerate like this it doesn't strengthen your point like you think it does. It just wrecks your credibility. I successfully stealth at least 80% of the time that I'm trying and that is before I am even perked into any of the stealth related perks. I agree that the placement of sleepers in walls, rafters, and closets is  contrived for the purpose of creating jump scares and can understand how that fact might destroy the immersion of some folks who are sensitive to such silliness. But I have successfully shot zombies out of rafters, and closets without them waking up. I have snuck around furniture to get a sleepers that were placed so they could not be seen from the doorway. My stealth experience has been greater than 50% failure even before I spent a single point to enhance it. Much greater.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Urban Blackbear]

I can still stealth through POIs in broad daylight, but it's not guaranteed like it used to be when perked in AGI. The new system just makes to glaringly obvious when I fail and cross a threshold that wakes all of the zombies in the volume up. That leaves you the option of standing and fighting or retreating until things calm down. Usually its just fight since they beeline for you. I can see how that would leave some players wondering why bother with stealth. It's very POI dependent.

[Viktoriusiii]

@BFT2020 almost as if people from all around somehow feel the same... must be coinkidink.
Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.
I do not care if my class makes me useless on hordenight. I will have to find another way to deal with that.
I don't care if my loot isn't as great. I don't care that I can't farm ressources, get good prices and items at the trader or have any way of dealing with larger groups of zombies... but if the ONLY THING that I can do still doesn't work... the class is fundamentally broken.
If you like to sneak until you get spotted and then start hopping around... great ❤️ I am happy for oyu. I can simply tell you that going in a poi with only a knife and crossbow will either get you killed (depending on difficulty/POI and Gamestage) or will take so much longer than just shooting your way through because oyu have to run and hide half the time, that it is simply not worth it.

@Roland en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
 

Quote

In poetry and oratory, it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions.

And what else do you think I want to convey, when my favourite way to play is simply not possible anymore.

[Urban Blackbear]

To be fair, if you go into a POI with only a crossbow and a knife that's on the player. SMGs are right there in the AGI tree. If you can't stealth it then its time for some rock n roll. You kind of need that for some of the loot rooms anyway. I think the loot room in the video store/police station POI is a good example of zombies raining down in a confined space.

[Gamida]

On 2/23/2023 at 1:55 PM, Roland said:

...and even your stealth meter says that you are perceptible to zombies out to 13 blocks away.

 

I will need someone to explain this because I am 100% sure someone in the know has told us in the past that the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance that we are detectable but more of a general gauge of their senses.

[theFlu]

42 minutes ago, Gamida said:

the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance

The meter doesn't give you comparable result even between skill points.. "10" at 0/5 is different from "10" at 5/5. And no, it doesn't translate to anything practical either.

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, Urban Blackbear said:

To be fair, if you go into a POI with only a crossbow and a knife that's on the player. SMGs are right there in the AGI tree. If you can't stealth it then its time for some rock n roll. You kind of need that for some of the loot rooms anyway. I think the loot room in the video store/police station POI is a good example of zombies raining down in a confined space.

Well I was able to do it before... use silent weapons (that scale with sneak) and go slowly and get results. It was very strong, yes. But it also had drawbacks.
Now, the only benefit of sneaking is outside at night. At least there it works as intended.

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@BFT2020 almost as if people from all around somehow feel the same... must be coinkidink.
Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.
I do not care if my class makes me useless on hordenight. I will have to find another way to deal with that.
I don't care if my loot isn't as great. I don't care that I can't farm ressources, get good prices and items at the trader or have any way of dealing with larger groups of zombies... but if the ONLY THING that I can do still doesn't work... the class is fundamentally broken.
If you like to sneak until you get spotted and then start hopping around... great ❤️ I am happy for oyu. I can simply tell you that going in a poi with only a knife and crossbow will either get you killed (depending on difficulty/POI and Gamestage) or will take so much longer than just shooting your way through because oyu have to run and hide half the time, that it is simply not worth it.

 

The fallacy of this statement "the class is fundamentally broken" is based on your perception of what stealth should be.  As we have learned playing many different types of stealth games over the years, stealth can be handle many different ways (from Hitman to Dishonored to many others). 

 

If you walked into a POI and every sleeper instantly woke up and targeted you no matter what you do, then yes the stealth in this game is fundamentally broken.  However, the developers have gone the route they did where if you spec into Hidden Strike and From the Shadows (and kit your gear correctly) then you will clear out a significant majority  of the zombies without them knowing you are there.  For all of the zombies that are awaken though, the game has the mechanic where you can strategically go backwards, hide from them, and then re-engage them later and get the Hidden strike bonus.

 

Any true stealth player doesn't go into the higher level POIs without a silenced pistol or SMG.  It's even advisable to have a larger weapon (shotgun for example) if all hell breaks loose and you are getting overwhelmed.

 

Based on your comment, you don't want to have to retreat.  That is your choice.  But when you disregard one of the benefits From the Shadows gives you, that doesn't make stealth fundamentally broken.  That is a choice that you made that doesn't take advantage of all of that perk's benefits.  That is like only eating boiled meat the entire game and then stating the food regeneration system is broken because you are only get 10 food for each item consumed when you have a total of 200 food.

[Viktoriusiii]

1 hour ago, BFT2020 said:

 

The fallacy of this statement "the class is fundamentally broken" is based on your perception of what stealth should be.  As we have learned playing many different types of stealth games over the years, stealth can be handle many different ways (from Hitman to Dishonored to many others). 

 

If you walked into a POI and every sleeper instantly woke up and targeted you no matter what you do, then yes the stealth in this game is fundamentally broken.  However, the developers have gone the route they did where if you spec into Hidden Strike and From the Shadows (and kit your gear correctly) then you will clear out a significant majority  of the zombies without them knowing you are there.  For all of the zombies that are awaken though, the game has the mechanic where you can strategically go backwards, hide from them, and then re-engage them later and get the Hidden strike bonus.

 

Any true stealth player doesn't go into the higher level POIs without a silenced pistol or SMG.  It's even advisable to have a larger weapon (shotgun for example) if all hell breaks loose and you are getting overwhelmed.

 

Based on your comment, you don't want to have to retreat.  That is your choice.  But when you disregard one of the benefits From the Shadows gives you, that doesn't make stealth fundamentally broken.  That is a choice that you made that doesn't take advantage of all of that perk's benefits.  That is like only eating boiled meat the entire game and then stating the food regeneration system is broken because you are only get 10 food for each item consumed when you have a total of 200 food.

 

You are right that I have a certain expectation of stealth (not a fallacy tho :D).
But it is based upon a simple concept:
stealth is all about control (funny, because its in the AGI tree :D)
I control when I start the fight (if I dont mess up). I am the person that has to decide if its too risky or if I can do it.
This control is yanked away, as soon as it is a roll that every zombie gets upon entering.

Compare the two "types" of Z' state:

normal in the wild ("awake"): it is ONLY triggered by noise/sight. If I am careful enough, I can stand right behind the Z' and it will not spot me, granting me the chance to do a stealthkill.

in a POI this is not the case. I can do everything right. No armor, no light, no trash on the floor no meat stew in my pocket (oh wait :D)...
and yet the game forced this fight upon me.

In A16 (I don't know when this change occured) if I did everything perfectly, sneak would get me through every POI.
I still had to fight once in a while, because no human is perfect. And with a bit of tweaking, this system worked perfectly.
Now, it doesnt matter what I do... because the decider is still the game rolling dice based upon stats.

 

And I disagree: if I am confident in my ability, I don't take anything with me in hitman.
There is no reason why I shouldnt just specialize in a perktree that is actually useful, instead of having a half-working perk that does nothing except this (hyperbole again!)

I would love for TFPs to measure stats by percentage:
Tree most skilled in: (I think Fort >50% then STR and then all the others)
So we have:

STR: direct confrontation
FOR: direct confrontation
PER: shooting from afar or blowing stuff up
AGI (based on your playstyle): sneak until seen, then direct confrontation (but more evasive)

INT is the only path that needs actual setup. Place turrets, wake a few up, get the stunbaton...
Why does every Path lead to direct confrontation? I don't want to fight Z's. I have bloodmoon for that.
I want to be a survivalist and not fight unless I have to or use stealth going one by one...

but now even stealth leads to confrontation... 🤔almost as if there is a designdecision behind that that would explain these changes...
 

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Gamida said:

 

I will need someone to explain this because I am 100% sure someone in the know has told us in the past that the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance that we are detectable but more of a general gauge of their senses.

 

Huh...If that's true then I've misinterpreted it all this time. I could swear that faatal referenced the number in terms of block distance but I definitely could be wrong.

[Roland]

7 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.

 

Not 100%, no. But that is you putting a limit on what is or is not included in stealth gameplay. I've played plenty of stealth games where you often have to hide until the heat dies down and enemies go back to regular patrol mode. If your standard for "working stealth" is that you will be able to kill 100% of sleepers without them ever waking up, falling out of a ceiling or out of a wall then you are 100% correct that TFP isn't going to fix something that isn't actually broken and you are just ranting for the sake of oratory or poetry, I suppose...

 

8 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

@Roland en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole
 

Quote

In poetry and oratory, it emphasizes, evokes strong feelings, and creates strong impressions.

And what else do you think I want to convey, when my favourite way to play is simply not possible anymore.

 

Good to know you just consider your own posts as rhetorical orations and poetry. I think everyone else does as well....

 

As I said, if you want to be taken seriously in a conversation regarding the actual design of the game then stick to the facts as best you can estimate them if you don't actually know them. I admit that I don't know the exact percent but I know that I can stealth most of the time and the times that stealth check fails I can choose to fight head on and loudly or retreat, hide, and return in continued stealthy fashion. If you don't feel the perks are worth the points then don't purchase them. Plenty of people feel they are worth it at the current ratio of success to failure and TFP doesn't need to fix anything that isn't actually broken. If something isn't working as intended that needs to be fixed but the exact ratio of how often stealth should succeed vs fail when you are fully perked is pure opinion and not something that is necessarily broken.

 

BTW, if the ratio actually was 50/50 then I would agree that it should be changed. So really, that is all we are really talking about here. What should the ratio be. 100/0? 90/10? 85/15?  What is acceptable and what is intended by the developers?

 

[Roland]

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Now, it doesnt matter what I do... because the decider is still the game rolling dice based upon stats.

 

But this is actually ambiguous because there are so many things we don't know about how you are playing. You say you make zero mistakes but we have gone through so many of these threads where someone claimed a room was auto-aggro ambush but then it was proven that it was not after all. So it does matter what you do however...yes...there is a die roll and so it is not entirely skill-based and you can end up rolling a 1 which is an automatic critical failure in many RPGs. In addition, this is a survival game which means that bad events beyond your control can happen and you as the player must use your skills and ability to adapt to survive the unlucky event.

 

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

but now even stealth leads to confrontation... 🤔

 

But only sometimes. You can't seriously define the agility branch as a whole leading to confrontation unless you're just waxing poetic again. It has the best chance and you have the skills to evade and still kill without confrontation if you're willing to take the time to do so. If you aren't willing to take the time then maybe you are more interested in min/maxing then you are in stealth. I mean....what is the penalty for finishing a POI more slowly? What does it really matter? If a room wakes up and you don't want to retreat and wait and then return and stealth kill because you just want to be done with this POI and move on to the next thing, then

that doesn't really sound like you enjoy the playstyle.

 

2 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

almost as if there is a designdecision behind that that would explain these changes...

 

Hence why there is nothing needing to be fixed...

[zztong]

12 hours ago, Mantel said:

There are custom Blocks where you hide loot behind like the quest crate. It wouldnt even be much work, just decrease the block size by 0,5% of the fake wall and thats it. But making it completely invisible feels a bit off. 

 

I can look into that. You're right that I might have a variety of options with combining the various bent-up shapes with the configuration of an easily broken block.

[AH64_Jimbo]

I've got to throw in my two cents, because I completely agree with Roland; Stealth is not a 100% guarantee. I often make an Agility build, yet I know that I cannot stay hidden forever.

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Is there a way for me to not engage Z's? And I don't mean "sneak -> get spotted -> run for 15+ sec &hide -> repeat" I mean without being seen and having to fight and backtrack.

 

Not 100%, no. But that is you putting a limit on what is or is not included in stealth gameplay. I've played plenty of stealth games where you often have to hide until the heat dies down and enemies go back to regular patrol mode. If your standard for "working stealth" is that you will be able to kill 100% of sleepers without them ever waking up, falling out of a ceiling or out of a wall then you are 100% correct that TFP isn't going to fix something that isn't actually broken and you are just ranting for the sake of oratory or poetry, I suppose...

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

4 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

but now even stealth leads to confrontation... 🤔

 

But only sometimes. You can't seriously define the agility branch as a whole leading to confrontation unless you're just waxing poetic again. It has the best chance and you have the skills to evade and still kill without confrontation if you're willing to take the time to do so. If you aren't willing to take the time then maybe you are more interested in min/maxing then you are in stealth. I mean....what is the penalty for finishing a POI more slowly? What does it really matter? If a room wakes up and you don't want to retreat and wait and then return and stealth kill because you just want to be done with this POI and move on to the next thing, then

that doesn't really sound like you enjoy the playstyle.

 

It's all part skill, part luck, part character build and even part level design. Sometimes you just can't sneak. Factory_03 (Pop-N-Pills factory) is a good example; It is almost impossible to stealth through the entire level as per design. That being said, I can lay ambushes for zombies. If you know the choke points of a POI, you can set up defenses, turrets, mines or whatever have you. Many times you can still get a sneak shot in, before the rest of the room attacks you. However you will be guns blazing and/or retreating and hiding until the heat dies down.

 

Also, I have used an aggroed zombie against them; A zombie around the corner might hear me breaking a wall or what have you, and shamble over to investigate. However, before they arrive I melt away into a dark corner and pounce when they find nothing there. This doesn't always work, as sometimes the zombie just happens to wander directly into me or I am not hidden enough. However, when it works it is highly satisfying and especially useful at night.

 

So you could complain about stealth being broken, or you could learn to use the existing game mechanics to your advantage. 

If you really want some aspect changed in the game, may I suggest that you use constructive criticism and bring an alternative idea to the table.

 

It's like Roland said . . .

 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

Hence why there is nothing needing to be fixed...

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by AH64_Jimbo (see edit history)

[Aldranon]

Late game, my M-60 works 99% of the time and when it fails, I have less amazing automatic weapons as backups.

 

If it was a real situation, stealth is what I would probably be doing (if not running away!) in a nightmare situation like 7D2D.  But for gameplay, stealth currently feels unrealistic (unless I'm in a coma and will wake up in a Part 2) and as it's a solid enough FPS as well... I shoot.

I shoot on horde nights too, almost every zombie is killed by shooting.  I use ammo I don't use in the daytime which are shotgun and 44.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Aldranon
Clarified a point. (see edit history)

[hiemfire]

6 hours ago, AH64_Jimbo said:

If you really want some aspect changed in the game, may I suggest that you use constructive criticism and bring an alternative idea to the table.

It's been tried, repeatedly, for years before I even picked up the game in A18. What we got was a tweak to the auto trigger volumes to be individual random rolls for zombie perception that reference FTS instead of the entire volume insta-locking onto the player (a positive change), more bright lighting in pois, perceptibility got tweaked to increase dependence on light level regardless of line of sight (honestly may have been a bug fix), more paths that have you entering an area with your back to where the zombies will show up and even more hidden zombies in wtf locations.

[Viktoriusiii]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Not 100%, no. But that is you putting a limit on what is or is not included in stealth gameplay. I've played plenty of stealth games where you often have to hide until the heat dies down and enemies go back to regular patrol mode. If your standard for "working stealth" is that you will be able to kill 100% of sleepers without them ever waking up, falling out of a ceiling or out of a wall then you are 100% correct that TFP isn't going to fix something that isn't actually broken and you are just ranting for the sake of oratory or poetry, I suppose...

Give me one game where the game is not about chance (like P&P games or others where sucess is always a %) where there are fixed situations (not cutscenes) where you fail your stealth based on dice.
Could you imagine in hitman if in 10% of cases, they just blast the chest you are in?
Or in Splinter Cell when you are in complete darkness, the enemy suddenly goes "THERE HE IS SHOOT HIM!"

Consistency is key. If you advertise stealth as chance based (I mean ingame explanation)... okay. I' dislike it, but at least now we know.
But sneak is advertised as skill based (every zombie can be snuck up to, if they are not in a poi) until suddenly BOOM out of your control.

7 hours ago, Roland said:

Good to know you just consider your own posts as rhetorical orations and poetry. I think everyone else does as well....

sorry not my native language... but yes, you can use hyperbole in arguments too to make clear what exactly is wrong.
I am not a gametester that gets money to find @%$# out. If they want to pay me, I will note explicit percentages, I will do that work. Right now, I speak as a @%$#ed off player. If I say "99% of zombies are wallzombies now" do you think I actually think that? OR is that a hint at my feeling that there are too many of them in there?

7 hours ago, Roland said:

BTW, if the ratio actually was 50/50 then I would agree that it should be changed. So really, that is all we are really talking about here. What should the ratio be. 100/0? 90/10? 85/15?  What is acceptable and what is intended by the developers?

100% unless advertised differently. Why does sneka work 100% outside of pois and then suddenly, it doesnt inside? It breaks a fundamental gamedesign:

continuity. The player learns by watching out for this continuity. If the trader was how he is today and then one day pulled his magnum while you are browing and shot you, the way you argue is "well not everyone in the wasteland is nice. Maybe you angered him!"
NO. Either give me hints as to why traders can be dangerous, or leave it.

"But every POI is the same, so that is continuity" yes... but WHY? Zombies outside are not the same as zombies inside. You are playing two different stealthgames.
One where it is skillbased and one where it is chancebased.

7 hours ago, Roland said:

But this is actually ambiguous because there are so many things we don't know about how you are playing. You say you make zero mistakes but we have gone through so many of these threads where someone claimed a room was auto-aggro ambush but then it was proven that it was not after all. So it does matter what you do however...yes...there is a die roll and so it is not entirely skill-based and you can end up rolling a 1 which is an automatic critical failure in many RPGs. In addition, this is a survival game which means that bad events beyond your control can happen and you as the player must use your skills and ability to adapt to survive the unlucky event.

Quote

I still had to fight once in a while, because no human is perfect.

I do fail. But I also have a very competative mindset and want to improve at the things I love. So I USUALLY don't make mistakes (overlooking trash, going too fast and so on) but you know what I consistently fail, even though I have nearly the best gear, my sight meter was <5 there is no light anywhere and I inched forward inch by inch (slow sneak with only forward taps)? Chance based rooms. My entire kit is meant to avoid this (unless I fail). But I am forced into it because of stealth.

 

Give me one good reason why (efficiency wise) I shouldnt simply get a real gun, more hp and resistence and just clear the poi within a minute, instead of sneaking around for 10, only to have to fight them anyways?

 

And diceroll don't replace human failurerate, they add ONTO it. The human still fails from time to time. Take any game (again not a game that tells you its chance) and you won't see chance replacing human failures. The human does the mistakes. If mistakes are programmed in, it feels REALLY BAD.
Take Fifas momentum (before they "removed" it they actually defended it like this):

Spoiler

The reasoning is, that if you score after being down, momentum switches to you and your players feel more motivated. And if you get scored on shorty before break, your players will suffer that in the break.
The problem was that this is a human emotion that the player in front of the screen also feels. So now you have doubled this emotion for no reason.
And players that are ultra disciplined STILL have to deal with this artificial "down". Its like they anticipate bots to play the game (HINT: momentum was a singleplayer AI mechanic that was simply not taken out for multiplayer)

 

 

7 hours ago, Roland said:

But only sometimes. You can't seriously define the agility branch as a whole leading to confrontation unless you're just waxing poetic again. It has the best chance and you have the skills to evade and still kill without confrontation if you're willing to take the time to do so. If you aren't willing to take the time then maybe you are more interested in min/maxing then you are in stealth. I mean....what is the penalty for finishing a POI more slowly? What does it really matter? If a room wakes up and you don't want to retreat and wait and then return and stealth kill because you just want to be done with this POI and move on to the next thing, then

that doesn't really sound like you enjoy the playstyle.

 

 

Hence why there is nothing needing to be fixed...

 

I just want to play an actual survivor, not a rambo. In my eyes guns are the absolute last way out. I would want to be a farmer, a cook a scavenger and a cutthroat.
But TFPs don't allow me that playstyle because A16 was BAD and we need to innovate! So now I at least want to be a stealthy survivor that saves his ammo for hordenight.
NAH, here is a random chance encounter for you to fight! ACTION! ACTION! ACTION!!! WOOOOO

 

 

 

[Aldranon]

I think if a player is maxed out on stealth skills, has nothing that makes any noise and is willing to take extra time avoiding noise making areas, move slowing and stopping even, while things "cool down".  

Then a perfectly done job should give the player around a 90% chance of success, if not more.

Note: This would include not killing anything or opening wood crates (safes and things that require lock picks could be picked safely)

 

BECAUSE: The time it would take to only partially clear one POI by stealth.  Another run-and-gun player could clear two POI's.  Maybe three if they cleared three low tier POI's.

 

So, if this were the case, then that would mean a stealth player is going for as much immersion as the game allowed at the cost of less loot and lower exp gain.

 

[Gamida]

23 hours ago, Gamida said:

 

I will need someone to explain this because I am 100% sure someone in the know has told us in the past that the meter doesn't give us a definitive distance that we are detectable but more of a general gauge of their senses.

 

16 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Huh...If that's true then I've misinterpreted it all this time. I could swear that faatal referenced the number in terms of block distance but I definitely could be wrong.

 

I would have to search through the forum to be 100% sure (yes said I was but I was trying to get my point across) but I am in the high 80+ % sure that it was said that it wasn't distance.

I was hoping that you being in good with the devs you could maybe ask casually as it is not a A21 thing but something already in game. I mean a dev should be able to tell if it is distance or a gauge of how well they could sense you.

I'll just wait here.

 

[BFT2020]

On 2/23/2023 at 11:36 AM, Mantel said:

No trash on the floor, No Armor, Everything is as stealthy as it can be. The Zeds not even had line of sight on me, so it has to be magic what gave them my position. Thinking about that their brains, ears and eyes are rotting this is simply not possible, and yet i have to face them in loud combad, even if im silent. This is NOT immersive.

 

Something we all missed on this example that would explain what is happening from an immersion perspective is the actions that the survivor took prior to entering the room (we been concentrating on what the survivor was doing inside the room).  In order to enter that room, the survivor had to press a button to the side and a heavy steel vault door opened up for them.  From an immersion standpoint, the zombies aren't reacting to the survivor but to a heavy door creating noise while opening.

[unholyjoe]

56 minutes ago, Gamida said:

 

 

I would have to search through the forum to be 100% sure (yes said I was but I was trying to get my point across) but I am in the high 80+ % sure that it was said that it wasn't distance.

I was hoping that you being in good with the devs you could maybe ask casually as it is not a A21 thing but something already in game. I mean a dev should be able to tell if it is distance or a gauge of how well they could sense you.

I'll just wait here.

 

if i am not mistaken myself, its sight and sound they go by.

 

i have snuck around them behind them without being seen (no perks) and not get detected.. the moment they can see you they zero on you. as for the distance that it is when they see you, well yes a dev will have to say so. but if distance was a factor i wouldnt have been able to walk (sneak) around them. shawn already said one other time that only the BM horde GPS a player.

 

but you all might as well keep waiting to ask a dev because you wont be happy until you corner them in with the 50 question trick... oooops

 

FYI tho... this is me using a21 for testing that.

 

Edited February 26, 2023 by unholyjoe (see edit history)

[Vaeliorin]

Honestly, I'd be happier with the current stealth system if there was a reasonable way to deal with lights.  Give me a paintball gun to black out windows, and a way to take out lamps/light bulbs that doesn't require shooting them half a dozen times (just a guess, I haven't actually tested it.)  Let me cut the power to a house, thus turning off all the lamps.  Something.

 

That said, I stealth as much as I can (though I never put points in it until very late game when I've got everything else I want) and have a fairly decent success rate.  When things wake up, I just beat them to death with whatever melee weapon I chose to use, or, if there's too many of them, a shotgun/automatic (though that's very rare, I almost never use guns outside of horde night.)

[Roland]

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

but yes, you can use hyperbole in arguments too to make clear what exactly is wrong.

 

Of course, technically, you CAN. As long as you're willing to sacrifice credibility. You've wondered out loud in so many posts why you aren't taken more seriously. I'm trying to give you a key to understanding that here but if it is more important to you to use hyperbole than to be taken seriously then continue...

 

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

"But every POI is the same, so that is continuity" yes... but WHY? Zombies outside are not the same as zombies inside. You are playing two different stealthgames.
One where it is skillbased and one where it is chancebased.

 

The fact that zombies outside are awake and wandering around and the zombies inside are unconscious and lying about didn't clue you into the fact that zombies outside are different than zombies inside?

 

10 hours ago, Viktoriusiii said:

Give me one good reason why (efficiency wise) I shouldnt simply get a real gun, more hp and resistence and just clear the poi within a minute, instead of sneaking around for 10, only to have to fight them anyways?

 

There is no good reason if efficiency is your goal. So make the choice. Do you want to be efficient or do you want to play stealth? If you're playing stealth because you like stealth gameplay then give me one good reason why you wouldn't be cool with evading suddenly mobilizing zombies coming out of their hibernation and hiding until you can kill them again by stealth once the cool down timer ends? Why wouldn't that kind of gameplay not be exciting to a player who loves stealth gameplay? Why wouldn't a person who loves stealth gameplay be open to a variety of conditions and circumstances in which they would have to apply different types of stealth gameplay over simply killing every zombie while it is still unconscious 100% of the time?

 

I'll tell you why. That player is more in love with efficiency than they are with stealth gameplay. And that's fine but stop whining about how stealth "doesn't work" and just go play the way you want-- efficiently. Embrace your desires to clear POIs quickly and stop trying to talk yourself into thinking that you enjoy stealth.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Roland (see edit history)

[Roland]

On 2/23/2023 at 5:10 PM, Laz Man said:

Prepare your bodies for A21.  I expect at least some poopy pants...lol

 

Look at this recent post by Laz.

 

Does this post from one of the members of the level design team look like someone who is concerned about players not getting ambushed from time to time? It is crystal clear that the design decision is to have occasional times when no matter what the player does, there is going to be a jump scare or an ambush. There is just never going to be a playthrough going forward where you can 100% kill every zombie while it slumbers in every POI. Make your peace with it people or stop spending points on stealth if you truly don't think its a worthwhile use of points.

 

TFP obviously doesn't view this as a stealth game. They view it as a game that has some stealthing in it but there will be times when you will face direct confrontation. That being said, you can retreat and evade and hide and the emerge and kill with full stealth bonuses. One of the perks you put points into reduces the cool down timer for aggroed zombies as if the devs expect players to evade, hide, and emerge as part of their stealth skills set. hmmmmmmmmm.....

Why would such a perk even be added to the game if stealth was intended to allow players to always kill sleepers before they could ever wake up? Answer: It is not intended.

 

Now we can discuss ratios and maybe Laz will weigh in about his philosophy when designing POIs for what his taste is in the frequency of ambushes and jump scares. That could be an interesting discussion.

[Viktoriusiii]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Of course, technically, you CAN. As long as you're willing to sacrifice credibility. You've wondered out loud in so many posts why you aren't taken more seriously. I'm trying to give you a key to understanding that here but if it is more important to you to use hyperbole than to be taken seriously then continue...

 

 

The fact that zombies outside are awake and wandering around and the zombies inside are unconscious and lying about didn't clue you into the fact that zombies outside are different than zombies inside?

 

 

There is no good reason if efficiency is your goal. So make the choice. Do you want to be efficient or do you want to play stealth? If you're playing stealth because you like stealth gameplay then give me one good reason why you wouldn't be cool with evading suddenly mobilizing zombies coming out of their hibernation and hiding until you can kill them again by stealth once the cool down timer ends? Why wouldn't that kind of gameplay not be exciting to a player who loves stealth gameplay? Why wouldn't a person who loves stealth gameplay be open to a variety of conditions and circumstances in which they would have to apply different types of stealth gameplay over simply killing every zombie while it is still unconscious 100% of the time?

 

I'll tell you why. That player is more in love with efficiency than they are with stealth gameplay. And that's fine but stop whining about how stealth "doesn't work" and just go play the way you want-- efficiently. Embrace your desires to clear POIs quickly and stop trying to talk yourself into thinking that you enjoy stealth.

if I wanted efficiency, I'd go fortitude/str.
Nothing more efficient than that, PERIOD. The best perks are in there.
Usefull in every situation. Mining, check, food, check, surviviability, check, clearing pois, check, hordenight, check.

Its not about efficiency. Its about every playstyle having their thing.

FOR/STR is direct confrontation
PER is the open field and looting
INT is the trader and turrets
AGI is... pistols? I guess.
I just want to be able to sneak without confrontation. I like the feeling of Z' dying to my blade.
I dislike confrontation. I like knowing that I only cleared that POI because of my skill, not because my rolls were lucky.
If I wanted that I would be playing Dragons dogma and be savescumming.

I just want to be able to sneak without being forced into fights.
Make sneaking harder. Make me crawl at snails pace... as long as 'silent' weapons are silent (meaning if I shoot a crossbow or bow, zombies dont wake up) and I can get to decide when I want to slowly crawl forwards and when I want to rush in... I am fine with that.

Basicially what I am asking for is:
give me the possibility to 100% that poi if I bring the skill. Make it ridicolously hard... I dont care... that can be tweaked...
but even a 0.1% chance of zombies waking up even though I was doing the best possible play is too much in my opinion (HYPERBOLE!!! I am sure there is a percentage where I wouldnt even notice. That does not mean that the principle is a good one. Only that the effects are negligible enough to ignore it... but why have a system if it has to be tuned down so much that the player doesnt notice it anymore?)



PS: @Roland I will now try to always mark my hyperbole and state what is factual... lets see if that will actually help... I doubt it since I think most forum users just dislike critics... but who knows... maybe I lived a lie for the last... when was A17 released? that long.