Hard-core survival description on Steam store

[Jost Amman]

Someone on Steam noticed that on the Steam store page there's a list will all the main 7D2D game features, and among those there's this one:

Survive – Experience real hardcore survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival.

 

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

Especially when the cold/hot and weather effects in general are close to irrelevant.

 

@Roland: wouldn't it be more appropriate to write something like "Survive – Experience a wide range of survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival." ?

 

This game is, after all, more like this: "7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games"

 

We wouldn't want people to think this is like (e.g.) Green Hell, wouldn't we?

Edited August 30, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[ElCabong]

You can pick settings to make it as hard core as you want. But you want to make description like this simple so that's probably the best way to say it. I think it's a mistake because not everybody wants to make the game as hard as it possibly can be

[Jost Amman]

27 minutes ago, ElCabong said:

You can pick settings to make it as hard core as you want. But you want to make description like this simple so that's probably the best way to say it. I think it's a mistake because not everybody wants to make the game as hard as it possibly can be

Hard doesn't translate into "hardcore survival" though.

I'm fully aware the game has settings to make the game as easy or as difficult as you like, but has nothing to do with the survival mechanics (for now).

[Melange]

I'll agree, perhaps the description in Steam is a bit over the top. But, its how we have interpreted it, because we have spent a lot of time with this game. No harm intended I suppose. For the neophyte, it may be exactly as described (think first ever experienced horde night).😬

 

After that, they'll never think about the Steam wording again. Ever.

 

Green Hell its not (though I love it). Nor is it Sunken Deep. Nor Subnautica. Nor Mist. Nor Raft...I have spent many hours in all of them. 7dtD is in a league of its own.

[Maharin]

Also understand that to people that have not played the game before I'm sure it feels pretty hard core and survival can be rough.  We all have to understand the lens through which we see the game as veterans.

[Roland]

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

[Maharin]

4 minutes ago, Roland said:

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

 

A bit harsh, but I agree that some need daily affirmation. 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Hard doesn't translate into "hardcore survival" though.

I'm fully aware the game has settings to make the game as easy or as difficult as you like, but has nothing to do with the survival mechanics (for now).

 

 

This is probably a good point and I'll admit I was thinking more of difficulty to survive more than realistic sim-like survival settings. The devs do spend a lot of time (more than I would if I was at the wheel) trying to make sure death loops don't happen and you could probably point to other games that are more on the sim side of things where survival is concerned. Our game is definitely not a simulation and Joel is fond of reminding people about that.

 

But, I think it still is a fine description since there are also games that are a lot more on the arcade side of things survival-wise. I know I wouldn't spend the time necessary to go and edit it at this point. And who knows, there is still some tweaking to be done, bandits to be added, and a random event manager to destroy our routines. Maybe by the final version it will edge over a bit more to the hardcore side of things.

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Maharin]

No matter how difficult they allow us to make it through options there will always be a group of people claiming it isn't hardcore enough (be it general difficulty, survival difficulty, or whatever).  Thankfully, mods can fix this problem for the people with a hardcore fetish.

 

EDIT:  Maybe that group of people put the CULT in difficult?

Edited August 30, 2022 by Maharin (see edit history)

[Rotor]

Edit: deleted, missed it.

Edited August 30, 2022 by Rotor (see edit history)

[Adam the Waster]

3 hours ago, Maharin said:

No matter how difficult they allow us to make it through options there will always be a group of people claiming it isn't hardcore enough (be it general difficulty, survival difficulty, or whatever).  Thankfully, mods can fix this problem for the people with a hardcore fetish.

 

EDIT:  Maybe that group of people put the CULT in difficult?

i agree but once consoles ports come in, they won't have that option lmao 

once it fully comes out to console im switching cuz most of my friends are on xbox, plus busy with life and such lmao

[Pernicious]

4 hours ago, Roland said:

Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. 

 

I'm glad of that. I have never chosen my clothes based on the biome I was going to. If I am going to the desert, just take more water. To the snow, more food. 

 

But heat stroke and hypothermia are real despite how much water people drink or food they eat. And I've never really been anywhere colder than about 2 or 3 below, but ever tried to touch a piece of metal after an hour or two in the Australian sun? Ain't nobody going to be wearing a full steel suit in that temp and surviving long. Honestly since I like light armour, i wouldn't object to light armour being more temperature favourable than heavy.

 

Its not so much whether it's hard core or not... it's really whether it's even relevant or not. As it is, weather has close to zero impact on the game at all. By the time you can even change biomes, generally you have unlimited food at water so you just accept it as a cost of going somewhere higher level and don't think about it.

[Jost Amman]

16 hours ago, Maharin said:

No matter how difficult they allow us to make it through options there will always be a group of people claiming it isn't hardcore enough (be it general difficulty, survival difficulty, or whatever).  Thankfully, mods can fix this problem for the people with a hardcore fetish.

But currently there aren't settings to make specifically survival harder (unless you consider loot % as one).

You can't change hunger and thirst rate, you can't change how much weather affects you or how serious injuries and infections are.

 

Roland got it right, I was referring to the true "survival" part, meaning struggling for your basic needs (hunger, thirst, general health, and shelter).

 

My point is that the description I quoted from the store page could be misleading for people looking for a true survival experience. But I can accept that since the game is not complete yet, the devs may revise weather survival later, which, at this point, is the only part really missing for a complete survival struggle.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Jost Amman (see edit history)

[pApA^LeGBa]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

 

Compared to games like The long Dark, Green Hell, Project Zomboid, Subsistence there is nothing hard core about 7 days. Everyone who plays those games for the first time will tell you that. Did i struggle when i started 7 days to die? Yes ofc. Did i struggle WAY more when playing the other games i listed for the first time? Definitly yes and i started 7 days right after steam release in 2013 when it was harder than now.

 

And despite of what TFP wants in ways of survival, those are the hardcore survival experience and not 7 Days and as we are talking about a description about the survival part, comparing to those games is legit. And all that i know of that is planned for the future in 7 days has nothing to do with survival, besides the water changes. Bandits aren´t the survival part of the game. No matter how hard they will be, they won´t make 7 days a hardcore survival game, they are part of the FPS genre in the genre mix that 7 days is.

 

Sadly the survival tag is used very wrong for many games. It might be a minor issue for TFP, as a customer there is nothing more annoying when looking for a survival game than using that tag wrong and a misleading description is as annoying aswell.

Edited August 31, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[RipClaw]

11 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

What are you talking about? 7 Days to Die is at least as hardcore as surviving in a hotel without room service. 😉

Let's see if there is more of a survival feeling in A21.

[Uncle Al]

10 hours ago, Roland said:

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

 

I've always assumed that a weather/temperature balance pass was on the cards, but dependant on doing the clothing overhaul first. Nice to have it confirmed temperature is definitely due to be looked at, though.

 

Temperature effects seem fair game to be reasonably punishing, as they're something that doesn't really kick in until the player is ready for them. You choose to go to other biomes so completely new players aren't going to get destroyed by punishing temperature effects. There should be only so much harm the forest is going to do to you.

 

Having a temperature system that's mildly impactful at forest temperatures, but gets very significant in extreme biomes, seems perfectly feasible and desirable. So a new player feels good about getting their first real clothes because they aren't cold at night, but aren't being shoved into death spiral by temperature effects.  Equally I feel that getting full body immersed in a lake in the snow biome should kill you pretty quickly, unless you very rapidly find shelter and a heat source. That seems the sort of difficulty it's fair to throw at players because by the time they're wandering the snow zone they're not completely new.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Uncle Al (see edit history)

[Matt115]

19 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

Someone on Steam noticed that on the Steam store page there's a list will all the main 7D2D game features, and among those there's this one:

Survive – Experience real hardcore survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival.

 

Now, I'm not saying there aren't survival elements in 7D2D, but to be honest, calling them "hard-core" seems a bit of a stretch.

Especially when the cold/hot and weather effects in general are close to irrelevant.

 

@Roland: wouldn't it be more appropriate to write something like "Survive – Experience a wide range of survival mechanics with nearly 50 buffs, boosts and ailments that will impact the gameplay in ways that can both challenge and aid in your survival." ?

 

This game is, after all, more like this: "7 Days to Die is an open-world game that is a unique combination of first-person shooter, survival horror, tower defense, and role-playing games"

 

We wouldn't want people to think this is like (e.g.) Green Hell, wouldn't we?

Well i wish that people demand to be as Green hell because it's writen hardcore in describtion but no chance... damn live is sad

 

18 hours ago, ElCabong said:

You can pick settings to make it as hard core as you want. But you want to make description like this simple so that's probably the best way to say it. I think it's a mistake because not everybody wants to make the game as hard as it possibly can be

Hard=/= hardcore.

Let say FPS as example =

Hard : you have low HP enemy a lot of hp

Hardcore: no cross, manual reload, minimal hud, you have to play very slow

 

17 hours ago, Roland said:

Everyone puts their hard-core pin in a different place. I think the description is fine. Weather survival is going to get another look before release to make it relevant. We get posts and emails all the time complaining that the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival. The huge experience we as have as veterans completely warps our view of what is hard-core and what is negligible. 

 

I'm perfectly fine with a bunch of veterans standing around and making fun of that description because they think the game is too easy. They probably need that cushion of superiority to help them make it through the day.

"the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival." WHAT.THE..... 7dtd too hardcore sounds like the best joke ever. Maybe years ago when people were much younger that now. But because they had lower skills.  Project zomboid is hardcore even for veterans - i remember guy who spend a +-200 hours in this game and just die because he done something stupid ( if i good remember he bleed because he ignored this).

 

17 hours ago, Roland said:

 

 

This is probably a good point and I'll admit I was thinking more of difficulty to survive more than realistic sim-like survival settings. The devs do spend a lot of time (more than I would if I was at the wheel) trying to make sure death loops don't happen and you could probably point to other games that are more on the sim side of things where survival is concerned. Our game is definitely not a simulation and Joel is fond of reminding people about that.

 

But, I think it still is a fine description since there are also games that are a lot more on the arcade side of things survival-wise. I know I wouldn't spend the time necessary to go and edit it at this point. And who knows, there is still some tweaking to be done, bandits to be added, and a random event manager to destroy our routines. Maybe by the final version it will edge over a bit more to the hardcore side of things.

 

Honestly - only less hardcore surival in sandbox survival  games  that  7dtd is MC.  MD can be rly hardcore because there is tons mechanics, this same thing with Factorio - there is a polish guy that making pretty famous chanel on yt - he was making stuff in Exel to know what to do to be effective. 

 

7DTD is simple as first mount and blade -no chance to "stuck" because lack of mechanics. Can be hard but not hardcore.  And bandits can't help and REM can't help too - this is not make game more complexed and complicated . Only things like - totaly and more complicated making vehicles, health system ( a lot of types of ilness), very hard "gunplay"( a lot of types of bullets so you have too choice which one you have use to correct weapon) , advance farming and more and more. Only then it can be said that 7DTD is hardcore

 

8 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Compared to games like The long Dark, Green Hell, Project Zomboid, Subsistence there is nothing hard core about 7 days. Everyone who plays those games for the first time will tell you that. Did i struggle when i started 7 days to die? Yes ofc. Did i struggle WAY more when playing the other games i listed for the first time? Definitly yes and i started 7 days right after steam release in 2013 when it was harder than now.

 

And despite of what TFP wants in ways of survival, those are the hardcore survival experience and not 7 Days and as we are talking about a description about the survival part, comparing to those games is legit. And all that i know of that is planned for the future in 7 days has nothing to do with survival, besides the water changes. Bandits aren´t the survival part of the game. No matter how hard they will be, they won´t make 7 days a hardcore survival game, they are part of the FPS genre in the genre mix that 7 days is.

  It might be a minor issue for TFP, as a customer there is nothing more annoying when looking for a survival game than using that tag wrong and a misleading description is as annoying aswell.

That's true. 7DTD is just... almost like Minecraft.  I agree about survival stuff. There is big lack of this element.

"Sadly the survival tag is used very wrong for many games." yeah i think now this tag is used everywhere... when evene MG Survival is much more hardcore survival game ( you have spend at least 10-15 to get basic resources food and water in stable number but still you have tons of work to do).

This is soo sad. 

But honestly @pApA^LeGBa : if 7dtd was hardcore like green hell or project zomobid number of players would be much much lower - yes this would be great for many reasons but you know - more casual game ---> more players = more money

[theFlu]

There's some signs that the survival aspect might get some love; the incoming water changes as the main one in my mind. As they're fixing infinite water supply, it gets into a state where it could be tuned to become an issue.

 

But otherwise, I don't think the survival aspect is even planned to be that much of a focus, so sure, improving the description to match wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd prefer some actually punishing weather and whatnot, but I'm also pretty OK with an FPS tower def ...

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

There's some signs that the survival aspect might get some love; the incoming water changes as the main one in my mind. As they're fixing infinite water supply, it gets into a state where it could be tuned to become an issue.

 

But otherwise, I don't think the survival aspect is even planned to be that much of a focus, so sure, improving the description to match wouldn't be a bad idea. I'd prefer some actually punishing weather and whatnot, but I'm also pretty OK with an FPS tower def ...

Well unfortunatly you are pretty wrong. On begining this game was pretty hardcore - food spoiling , smell of meat, wellness system, corpse "cleaning" -  so you had a lot "today job" to do to just survive. i think they simplife everything just to make it easier because : easier = more players. And bigger focus on looting etc because some people don't like "doing dirty job" like take care about food or cleaning corpses

[theFlu]

5 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well unfortunatly you are pretty wrong.

Apart from this, it seems we .. agree? I just won't go into guessing TFP's motives for the simplifications as some were apparently performance things and some were more of consequences of tech changes.

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Matt115 said:

"the game is too hard-core and unfair for survival." WHAT.THE..... 7dtd too hardcore sounds like the best joke ever. Maybe years ago when people were much younger that now. But because they had lower skills. 

 

All that this signifies is that you have an inability to understand things from someone else's perspective. You act like the world is full of slightly different versions of you when, in fact, the world is filled with people completely unlike you. Terms like "hardcore" are in the eyes of the beholder. Some look at our hunger and thirst mechanics and call it too hardcore because you have manage them constantly and they would rather not have to deal with it. Back when weather survival was better, some didn't like having to change clothes to enter a new biome. They felt like that mechanic was too hardcore survival. 

 

We are always getting feedback from people about the survival elements being too much. Some complain that it is just too hard while others say that it is too focused on realism instead of fun (ie--sim like or hardcore) 

 

This forum is not a good guage for that as most people here want things to be even more hardcore than they already are and cringe at the streamlining and abstraction of survival elements. Any time the game edges away from sim-like towards arcade-like people here get uncomfortable. But that isn't everyone who plays or who wants to play this game by a longshot.

 

There are plenty who see this game as very hardcore and even too hardcore in its present state for their liking. We even have mods that change the game to be less hardcore like we have mods that push it further towards more. One that comes to mind is the one that makes all the animals friendly and all of the zombies neutral unless attacked first. Some people see that as the perfect amount of hardcoreness that they desire for the game. Someone else posted awhile back that the game shouldn't allow us to die but should just make us have to eat more by having damage hit our hunger gauge instead of having hitpoints and that we never should have to look at the player stats page and see number of deaths. That was too hardcore for comfort for them.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Matt115]

42 minutes ago, theFlu said:

Apart from this, it seems we .. agree? I just won't go into guessing TFP's motives for the simplifications as some were apparently performance things and some were more of consequences of tech changes.

Yes but some thing could be "sacrifaced" instead like big POI's

32 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

All that this signifies is that you have an inability to understand things from someone else's perspective. You act like the world is full of slightly different versions of you when, in fact, the world is filled with people completely unlike you. Terms like "hardcore" are in the eyes of the beholder. Some look at our hunger and thirst mechanics and call it too hardcore because you have manage them constantly and they would rather not have to deal with it. Back when weather survival was better, some didn't like having to change clothes to enter a new biome. They felt like that mechanic was too hardcore survival. 

 

We are always getting feedback from people about the survival elements being too much. Some complain that it is just too hard while others say that it is too focused on realism instead of fun (ie--sim like or hardcore) 

 

This forum is not a good guage for that as most people here want things to be even more hardcore than they already are and cringe at the streamlining and abstraction of survival elements. Any time the game edges away from sim-like towards arcade-like people here get uncomfortable. But that isn't everyone who plays or who wants to play this game by a longshot.

 

There are plenty who see this game as very hardcore and even too hardcore in its present state for their liking. We even have mods that change the game to be less hardcore like we have mods that push it further towards more. One that comes to mind is the one that makes all the animals friendly and all of the zombies neutral unless attacked first. Some people see that as the perfect amount of hardcoreness that they desire for the game. Someone else posted awhile back that the game shouldn't allow us to die but should just make us have to eat more by having damage hit our hunger gauge instead of having hitpoints and that we never should have to look at the player stats page and see number of deaths. That was too hardcore for comfort for them.

 

In minecraft you have hunger mechanics too - but could you call MC hardcore? For Some of people yes. But for most players? no. So okay let's say that 7DTD is hardcore game - so how to describte project zomboid? Ultra hardcore?

You can focus in realism - and you will get something even better that "fun" - satisfaction. That's why factorio or project zomboid are so popular.

 

"But that isn't everyone who plays or who wants to play this game by a longshot." it's true. Not everyone like this. But if you check begining of this develeopment - if you create 1-10 scale where MC is 1 and project zomboid is 10 - 7DTD was 7/8 while now it's 2-3.

 

"One that comes to mind is the one that makes all the animals friendly and all of the zombies neutral unless attacked first. Some people see that as the perfect amount of hardcoreness that they desire for the game. Someone else posted awhile back that the game shouldn't allow us to die but should just make us have to eat more by having damage hit our hunger gauge instead of having hitpoints and that we never should have to look at the player stats page and see number of deaths. That was too hardcore for comfort for them." 

Well i don't undestand such mods. This is zombie games - if you check most non parody games one thing is common - you die a lot --> resident evil, l4d2 on expert, cryostasis, NZA, no more room in hell, contagion, cod, dead island , dead rising or dying light. so i don't get it why people buying game about well... dying and then complain about that.

 

We have tons of casual sandboxes like - raft, summer , grounded.

By hardcore not focused on PVP? Well greenhell and project zomboid. So there is tons of tons of tons casual games while more hardcore ones? almost nothing. 7DTD was like " a little bit easier 3D project zomboid" now - "minecraft with  more realistic graphic"

[theFlu]

17 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Yes but some thing could be "sacrifaced" instead like big POI's

But I like big POIs and I cannot lie. Or however that thing went. Removing big POIs wouldn't really do anything to improve performance of the hot mess that was the corpse decay timer. Sure, I absolutely think the tech would've been a solvable problem, with some simplifications for the timers. But if you're making me choose between "corpse clearing" (even with actual good mechanics and gameplay) and "skyscraper clearing", I'll choose the skyscrapers any day.

[Matt115]

2 minutes ago, theFlu said:

But I like big POIs and I cannot lie. Or however that thing went. Removing big POIs wouldn't really do anything to improve performance of the hot mess that was the corpse decay timer. Sure, I absolutely think the tech would've been a solvable problem, with some simplifications for the timers. But if you're making me choose between "corpse clearing" (even with actual good mechanics and gameplay) and "skyscraper clearing", I'll choose the skyscrapers any day.

Well - because skyscrapers is more "things " happens right? - well corpse clearing was pain but... that's was a point. we had blood moon. next day we just "cleaned" a little bit are but it was a mistake - because we didn't clean big " hole" where were a lot of zombie corpses we get a lot of zombies until we clean a mess. And it was so good to figured out how something small like this can be mortal - this was a little bit like SCP - endless Ikea or typical WD situation when they miss small hole and zombie came inside and kill a lot of survivors. 

[theFlu]

11 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well - because skyscrapers is more "things " happens right?

Sure, they're heavy to run; but for the corpse timers, they're not nearly as heavy as a horde night.

 

13 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

well corpse clearing was pain but... that's was a point.

Yup, it can be a great mechanic if done right; having corpses be a source of all kinds of problems, infection, slippery, maybe have a chance to randomly re-activate, just all around ugly and stressing for "mental health issues" etc etc. The way they actually were though, whether as ugly terrain diamonds or lootable torsos, I can't say I really miss em.