Hard-core survival description on Steam store

[meganoth]

 

There is no easy definition for "hardcore survival", just like many other labels you can pin on a game (or movie or book). Still there are ways to make such judgement calls, for example by asking many experts in a field and check if they agree (though not possible here)

 

Another way to help in the determination could be establishing some criteria and saying that at least x of them need to be fullfilled. Such a list was made for the question whether something is an RPG for example.

 

Now for survival to be hardcore I would list criterias like:

1,2,3,4) Which of water, food, weather, sickness are directly lifethreatening?

5) Is death a real punishment? (This agains calls for a subjective judgement call, sorry)

6) Is it possible to get into untenable situations/death spiral because of wrong survival decisions?

7) Is it possible to get into untenable situations/death spiral because of bad luck?

8 ) Do you need to invest more than say 40% per day for survival? (this one is really hard to fulfill for any game that does survival as a side job)

 

Since I'm totally not knowledgable about survival games I'd say there could be a better list. And I don't know whether actual hardcore survival games would get much points in this list. I also would not know where to set a sensible cut-off point. But I don't see 7D2D getting many points in the list I drew up. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

6 hours ago, Roland said:

I also know those features would alienate a lot of people. 

And that's nothing wrong. I mean it woudn't be a problem if TFP stick with hardcore stuff like smell of meat, food spoiling etc during early alpha Now it's too late. that's completly true. But this descibtion was so for long time so it's should hardcore as it was during A11

 

1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

If most new players would find it too hard

And that's a point.  i think if ideas of my or @pApA^LeGBa was in 7dtd let says from A11 - actuall number of 7dtd owner would be 2/3 lower but... this is totaly good thing and it would be very positive thing

3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

There is no easy definition for "hardcore survival", just like many other labels you can pin on a game (or movie or book). Still there are ways to make such judgement calls, for example by asking many experts in a field and check if they agree (though not possible here)

Hardcore survival is when at least 60% players  who bought this game just give up to play in  game because is too hard and when most player even don't bought this game because read opinion how this game is hard and it was main reason why decided to not bought "hardcore survive" game

[pApA^LeGBa]

All 8 points are a clear no for 7 days. Technically you can die of 1,2,3,4. But it doesn´t actually happen. I did die once to hunger or thirst when i first started to play, can´t remember if it was hunger or thirst as this was back in 2013. Never died due to weather or sickness. Those things take way too long to have any real effect.

 

5) Not really. That was a player decision though. Can´t blame TFP, they tried to make death a punishment, but the masses said no.

6) Clearly a no.

7) Maybe, if you are really really unlucky. But actually no. 

8 ) Nope.

 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

33 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

All 8 points are a clear no for 7 days. Technically you can die of 1,2,3,4. But it doesn´t actually happen. I did die once to hunger or thirst when i first started to play, can´t remember if it was hunger or thirst as this was back in 2013. Never died due to weather or sickness. Those things take way too long to have any real effect.

 

5) Not really. That was a player decision though. Can´t blame TFP, they tried to make death a punishment, but the masses said no.

6) Clearly a no.

7) Maybe, if you are really really unlucky. But actually no. 

8 ) Nope.

 

 

Well i  manage to die because weater but it was for a test

[Roland]

6 hours ago, theFlu said:

Modding? Sure, then I shall propose adding "And Goblins!!" to the description. Just mod em in, no biggy. Someone already did.

 

Any argument can be made to look absurd by taking it to absurd lengths. I agree that just because anything could be modded in the game, they shouldn't claim that it has those features. In this case, the game already has survival features that modding can push either to more extreme or more casual results. We aren't talking about something completely foreign that someone else added to the game in their overhaul mod. We are talking about survival features that already exist which TFP, themselves, implemented and who also left a lot of values exposed that can be edited easily for game-changing results.

 

Also by modding I'm mostly talking about simple edits to the xml configuration files in this context which are basically like adjusting settings but in a more advanced fashion. You said the options settings are fair game to claim so why not xml edits as they are just advanced options. 

 

I'm not talking about modding in the sense of needing to know C# and bringing new assets into the game. 

 

 

[Roland]

4 hours ago, meganoth said:

Now for survival to be hardcore I would list criterias like:

1,2,3,4) Which of water, food, weather, sickness are directly lifethreatening?

5) Is death a real punishment? (This agains calls for a subjective judgement call, sorry)

6) Is it possible to get into untenable situations/death spiral because of wrong survival decisions?

7) Is it possible to get into untenable situations/death spiral because of bad luck?

8 ) Do you need to invest more than say 40% per day for survival? (this one is really hard to fulfill for any game that does survival as a side job)

 

Now this is a good argument for coming up with a criteria for "hardcore survival" as a technical term for the gaming industry. If such a criteria was adopted and applied universally then I would agree that TFP would have to remove their description. But...it is not and for now "hardcore survival" is simply a marketing term open to interpretation by all and I maintain that a great many gamers are going to play 7 Days to Die and view it in their own minds as a hardcore survival game compared to others they might have played. So until, either the industry adopts the phrase officially to meet a set criteria or we start hearing outrage from the masses instead of just a few super elite survival game fans, I don't think it really needs to be changed. 

 

I know I said I was done but TheFlu brought out his Goblin, Mega brought out his list, but more importantly, Kuosimodo gave me the first dislike reactions I've ever gotten from them so this is truly unexplored territory and I feel I must not abandon it.

[Pernicious]

9 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Well i  manage to die because weater but it was for a test

 

That does remind me of trying to get the Polar Bare achievement. The whole point was to get your body temperature to 0*. And to do that, you had to:

 

Go to the snow biome

Get to a high altitude

Strip off

Jump into water

And then drink a cooling drink.

 

And you still didn't die. 

 

I'd say that's pretty hard core. Just... doesn't make the game hard core if you have to do all that intentionally to even get close to dying. It's essentially an ignorable feature.

[meganoth]

5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

Now this is a good argument for coming up with a criteria for "hardcore survival" as a technical term for the gaming industry. If such a criteria was adopted and applied universally then I would agree that TFP would have to remove their description. But...it is not and for now "hardcore survival" is simply a marketing term open to interpretation by all and I maintain that a great many gamers are going to play 7 Days to Die and view it in their own minds as a hardcore survival game compared to others they might have played. So until, either the industry adopts the phrase officially to meet a set criteria or we start hearing outrage from the masses instead of just a few super elite survival game fans, I don't think it really needs to be changed. 

 

I know I said I was done but TheFlu brought out his Goblin, Mega brought out his list, but more importantly, Kuosimodo gave me the first dislike reactions I've ever gotten from them so this is truly unexplored territory and I feel I must not abandon it.

 

The industry making it a technical definition? Will never happen, why would they make criteria official they could be sued for. Didn't happen with RPG either. No, it is just one inofficial way to get some handle on a subjective term.

 

Absent that it will be back to experts or knowledgable ṕeople in the field judging available games and drawing the line somewhere. Now I don't have any overview over the field, neither the hardcore nor the casual survival games. My opinion should be classified as ignorant as best. But if pressed I would say that 7D2D would be somewhere in the middle.

 

Now my viewpoint is also shaded by me having played 7D2D for so long. There is some merit in saying that 7D2D has not much handholding at the start, but on the other hand one would have to include all the information in the journal (even if ignored by many) and I think there is a lot of info there.

 

 

[theFlu]

7 hours ago, Roland said:

Any argument can be made to look absurd by taking it to absurd lengths.

Sure, the goblin is a little further down the modding path, but we're talking about a marketing message here. I don't think one should advertise a product with features that require an outsider to create on top of it. No matter how easy they are to create. Not that Balancing a good survival experience even after you have all the necessary features is an easy task.

 

Settings vs "advanced settings" in xml; just no. Not against "here's what we're offering for your money".

The xml:s here are mostly revealed snippets of code. I would be a little more friendly towards that argument if the xml:s had a structure of settings. As they are, they nest in whatever way the feature required and have little accessible grouping to function as "settings".

 

What I mean by that, as an example (doesn't match reality 1to1):

Wanna increase "stamina drain of everything"... edit this, this and this, and this and this and this, and this ... and then likely you have broken the UI somewhere.

vs

We made multiplier settings for all things stamina, here's a list of them. They're not exposed in the settings UI, but we've tested them and they seem to work for the most part. Based on our tests, here's some ground rules on how to use them. (This may yet come, but we can only judge what we have)

 

Was it you who made a zero-XP mod, or am I tripping..? That sounds like something one might achieve with xml edits only - but I'm sure you wouldn't want to advertise that as a game feature, even if it's created purely in the xml:s? So, there's a difference there; it's not about the ability, it's about the expectation of work and skill required.

 

Work and skill required about the goblin? If someone already made a mod for those, it's a whole lot less effort for the player to add a goblin than to create a new mod for "hardcore version" of whatever. TFP of course can't sell that as a feature, but as long as no "official" version exists for #hardcore_survival, they shouldn't sell that as a feature either. Someone will have to create it, it's a crapton of work, and people will be installing it as a mod - just like the goblin in practice.

 

Market the features that are actually there. If you have the functionality in mods, that's basically DLC; advertise the game as it is and the DLC as it is.

[pApA^LeGBa]

One could mod the game to be a racing game. Should TFP add that to the description too?

 

Or should TFP remove towerdefense from the description because you can turn off hordenights?

 

If you consider mods in your description all you do is confuse people.

[Jost Amman]

@theFlu & @pApA^LeGBa: I agree in general, but, to be honest, @Roland said that the basic mechanics to handle temperature, illness and hunger/thirst, are already in the game, so it's different than adding a completely new mechanic to the game. They just need to be "improved" (from our perspective).

[pApA^LeGBa]

Well vehicles are in the game aswell, just needs an improved RWG and a stop watch.

 

And from a consumer perspective a description that only is true when one is willing to modify game files is more than questionable tbh. A lot of people are uncomfortable doing so and will never do that. There is even a lot of people that don´t even want to use mods wich only requires you to create a folder and copy the one you downloaded into it. Let alone would they fiddle around with game files themselves.

 

If modding the game is the justification for calling it hardcore than you exclude a lot of people from that hardcore experience.

Edited September 4, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Matt115]

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

The industry making it a technical definition? Will never happen, why would they make criteria official they could be sued for. Didn't happen with RPG either. No, it is just one inofficial way to get some handle on a subjective term.

 

Absent that it will be back to experts or knowledgable ṕeople in the field judging available games and drawing the line somewhere. Now I don't have any overview over the field, neither the hardcore nor the casual survival games. My opinion should be classified as ignorant as best. But if pressed I would say that 7D2D would be somewhere in the middle.

 

Now my viewpoint is also shaded by me having played 7D2D for so long. There is some merit in saying that 7D2D has not much handholding at the start, but on the other hand one would have to include all the information in the journal (even if ignored by many) and I think there is a lot of info there.

 

 

Well..."shaded by me having played 7D2D for so long" i was thinking about diffrent games and... i was schocked about one of them.  

There is a game - Mount and blade with fire and sword - no steam version just typical DVD edition,

Then they made mount and blade with fire and sword : wild fields - this was upgraded version - no steam version typical DVD edition with DRM in old style - 3 activations, stable network connection like AC2 or Avatar the video game.

So i bought For 5 zł mount and blade with fire and sword on steam - (note: wilds fields are just updated to some version mount and blade with fire and sword while mount and blade on steam is the most updated version).

And i was shocked - some many thing were redesign so.... my experience mean nothing - it's like this game get big overhaoul mod. But... is much easier. 

So 7dtd is this same thing - this is not about experiences but changes in game

 

14 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

@theFlu & @pApA^LeGBa: I agree in general, but, to be honest, @Roland said that the basic mechanics to handle temperature, illness and hunger/thirst, are already in the game, so it's different than adding a completely new mechanic to the game. They just need to be "improved" (from our perspective).

Well that what you wrote can be done very casual or very hardcore - yes hunger exist but can be done in very casual style like in minecraft or very hard like metal gear solid or green hell. So Yes this mechanics are in game but it would be totaly diffrent --> car from 1940 and car from 2022 are both cars but so diffrent about that how works, complexed etc. that you can say that car from 1940 and from 2022 are totaly diffrents machines with this same name and doing similiar thing.

[Matt115]

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

Well vehicles are in the game aswell, just needs an improved RWG and a stop watch.

 

And from a consumer perspective a description that only is true when one is willing to modify game files is more than questionable tbh. A lot of people are uncomfortable doing so and will never do that. There is even a lot of people that don´t even want to use mods wich only requires you to create a folder and copy the one you downloaded into it. Let alone would they fiddle around with game files themselves.

 

If modding the game is the justification for calling it hardcore than you exclude a lot of people from that hardcore experience.

I think that TFP just saw how many people who expected "Mincraft with better graphic because there are cubes like in minecraft"  were complaing that 7DTD is too hardcore so they decided to make 7dtd as simple and easy as possible because this mean much more players + they crated argument that " if it's too easy for you then you can make/instal mods from internet". IF 7dtd were much more hardcore this would be much less players and neccesity to add much more content because hardcore player often demand complexed system and mechanics

Edited September 4, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

18 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Well that what you wrote can be done very casual or very hardcore - yes hunger exist but can be done in very casual style like in minecraft or very hard like metal gear solid or green hell. So Yes this mechanics are in game but it would be totaly diffrent --> car from 1940 and car from 2022 are both cars but so diffrent about that how works, complexed etc. that you can say that car from 1940 and from 2022 are totaly diffrents machines with this same name and doing similiar thing.

I think you lost the thread of this discussion in this reply... we weren't arguing about how easy or difficult 7D2D is or would be with modifications... we were arguing if ANY level of survival mechanics is already in the game so that the game can be called "hardcore survival" without telling a blatant lie.

 

If the only way to have survival mechanics in, would have been by modding (like in the Goblin example) then TheFlu and pApA^LeGBa would have a point.

But as Roland said, survival mechanics are already in the game without modding, so his point is that it's just a question of how you define "hardcore survival".

[Rotor]

A simple way to look at it is:  If the game mechanic does not dictate a change, i.e. Snow blizzard in your tidy whities no repercussion, then is just window dressing...aka casual.

[pApA^LeGBa]

21 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

If the only way to have survival mechanics in, would have been by modding (like in the Goblin example) then TheFlu and pApA^LeGBa would have a point.

But as Roland said, survival mechanics are already in the game without modding, so his point is that it's just a question of how you define "hardcore survival".

 

Well you can compare it. There is a lot of games that are way harder in their survival part. Even experienced 7d2d players who use all the vanilla options to make 7D harder will struggle on their first try. And just in case: you can´t compare a modded 7D to a not modded actual hardcore survival game. That doesn´t count for a definition of hardcore. Put the things that are needed for 7D to make it hardcore survival in the menu of vanilla and we can talk again.

Edited September 4, 2022 by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)

[Jost Amman]

I just hope they improve (at least) the weather system again before release... 

[Matt115]

55 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I think you lost the thread of this discussion in this reply... we weren't arguing about how easy or difficult 7D2D is or would be with modifications... we were arguing if ANY level of survival mechanics is already in the game so that the game can be called "hardcore survival" without telling a blatant lie.

 

If the only way to have survival mechanics in, would have been by modding (like in the Goblin example) then TheFlu and pApA^LeGBa would have a point.

But as Roland said, survival mechanics are already in the game without modding, so his point is that it's just a question of how you define "hardcore survival".

 

I mean: this same mechanic can be done in very casual or very hardcore style so not only important if there are such mechanics but how it was implemented too.

So yeah "survival mechanics"are in game but implemented in non hardcore way

31 minutes ago, Jost Amman said:

I just hope they improve (at least) the weather system again before release... 

Honestly? i think there is no chance just "what is neccesary" - just banditd LBL, water, few props, pois and that's it xd

Edited September 4, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[Roland]

You guys make great counter arguments and I agree that TFP shouldn’t factor in modding capability into their claims of what the game is or is not. I concede that point.
 

My 0-xp mod is not all xml edits which is why it lies broken and abandoned. I’ll get help to fix it once the game is done but I’m not going to go around begging and bothering people who are busy with their own projects every single alpha update. Maybe when the game is done it will be possible to do 100% xpath but as of now the hooks needed are missing and so that takes more knowledge than I have time to learn. 
 

I do not concede the point that the game must remove its hardcore survival label. I still believe that 7 Days qualifies especially with already existing settings (not of the xml variety) that can be selected.  Nothing I’ve read yet has convinced me that as a marketing term and superlative for advertising, the phrase is perfectly legit and most people won’t feel buyer’s remorse having read that ad and then playing the game. If Mega’s criteria was an industry standard for the official technical jargon of “hardcore survival” then I agree it would have to be removed. But we aren’t there yet so companies can claim it as long as most consumers don’t care or agree and I think that is exactly where we are at present. 
 

 

 

[Jost Amman]

2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

So yeah "survival mechanics"are in game but implemented in non hardcore way

But that's Roland's point... your definition of hardcore survival is your own (and mine) interpretation, while other people can think differently.  

[Roland]

3 hours ago, Rotor said:

A simple way to look at it is:  If the game mechanic does not dictate a change, i.e. Snow blizzard in your tidy whities no repercussion, then is just window dressing...aka casual.

I agree that weather survival right now is window dressing but that isn’t the intended final state. Weather survival is gone back and forth over the years and right now the pendulum is on the “not functioning” side. That’s part of development and I believe the Early Access label should be factored in if at any given moment the survival aspects are non functioning. 
 

Bandits are tied in with the new outfits and clothing which is tied in to weather survival. It’s a tangle which should get sorted once bandits are in and clothing and outfits finalized. 

[Matt115]

5 minutes ago, Roland said:

I agree that weather survival right now is window dressing but that isn’t the intended final state. Weather survival is gone back and forth over the years and right now the pendulum is on the “not functioning” side. That’s part of development and I believe the Early Access label should be factored in if at any given moment the survival aspects are non functioning. 
 

Bandits are tied in with the new outfits and clothing which is tied in to weather survival. It’s a tangle which should get sorted once bandits are in and clothing and outfits finalized. 

Looking on bandits models -- > probably not.  bandits will just be working like zombie ( i mean clothing) so outfit here are probably not conneted with them

Edited September 4, 2022 by Matt115 (see edit history)

[SnowDog1942]

On 9/3/2022 at 8:46 AM, Roland said:

I’ve not played The Long Dark or Green Hell. Do either of those games start to feel trivial from a survival aspect once you gain enough experience with them and come to know exactly what you should do and where to go in order to overcome whatever might be threatening your life at a given moment in the game?  If not, why not?  How do those games remain hardcore survival for the fan with 1000+ hours? @theFlu brought up the point about gameplay loops that trivialize survival and that the gameplay loop that does that in 7 Days involves the trader and is easily discernible after not too many hours playing the game. 

In these other games that deserve the title hardcore survival, what is it that makes survival difficult no matter how experienced you are with the game?

I think you hit the nail on the head here.  Many games are hardcore to me when they are brand new and im trying not to die during my first, and usually only, play thru.  Can anyone post screenshots of their 2k or 5k plus hours in The Long Dark?  If so, congrats, really lol.   

Edited September 4, 2022 by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)

[Rotor]

31 minutes ago, Roland said:

I agree that weather survival right now is window dressing but that isn’t the intended final state. Weather survival is gone back and forth over the years and right now the pendulum is on the “not functioning” side. That’s part of development and I believe the Early Access label should be factored in if at any given moment the survival aspects are non functioning. 
 

Bandits are tied in with the new outfits and clothing which is tied in to weather survival. It’s a tangle which should get sorted once bandits are in and clothing and outfits finalized. 

 

Not to be left out, is food going spoil?  After that, I am good :).  If they throw in sliders at 25/50/75 for these two items, you have the perfect solution......for me :).