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Hard-core survival description on Steam store


Jost Amman

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6 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Great. Then 7 Days to Die qualifies for all the customers who perceive it that way and I am confident that enough people do that the description does not warrant editing.

 

I appreciate your opinion. I agree that 7 Days is not the most hardcore. I don't believe that makes it casual. I think it is far beyond Minecraft though. But minecraft I would put far beyond 7 Days for mining.

Beyond mining well i agree - the top right should be terraria because deep rock isn't sandbox but honestly have almost destructible world.

 mineraft is the most casual - combat is much complexed in  valheim or conan  that in 7dtd , farming is pretty safe in 7dtd while in raft you have birds and in MGS love area. 

Exploring is pretty easy - you don't  have to worry that you can find in random place explosing enemy like creeper , powerful enemy like in terraria or almost one hit kill enemies like in vanaheim - i hope add of bandits will make exploring harded but for it's hard to say.

In minecraft crating hm... idk how looks now but for some time was pretty hard because were so radomly - if could find rare materials easy sometimes , sometimes even basic materials were extrem rare. 

Buliding is almost like in minecraft - yes there are limits but very liberal - create building in vanaheim is much much harder because good quality wood is rare and you need quality wood for upgrades. In 7DTD you could easy make 2 floor building while in vanaheim will colapse if  you use standard wood.

Survive is pretty easy ( i talk about A20) - you can get food in high number pretty easy everywhere - this same thing with water- just do treasure quest. While in even pretty "dynamic" MGS you have to spend 10 hours to get enough water and food to go somewhere for longer time that 15 minutes.

Character progresion.... honestly hard to say - it's  connected with your loot  - in biding of issac you can get terrible or soo good builds - in 7dtd if you want to use shotguns and almost always get smg -- then it's problem to be effective but other hand - you can focus on INT then after you get enough loot focus on weapons. So if Character progression is hardcore? Well in Wellness period yes. now not so much

 

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This may just be semantic games, I don't really care about a marketing pitch. I thought I was bored enough to participate, but I guess wasn't, so the below is incoherent. I'll post it anyway.

 

Survival being all things related to health; heat, nutrition, disease, wounds, maybe strength(/conditioning/stamina). Describing a game as "partly a survival game" would imply that there are elements of the above, but they're not all that significant.

 

Describing a game as a "pure survival" would mean that most of the gameplay is focused on solving those issues in whatever environment the game takes place in. A "pure survival" would essentially require a hardcore approach, which to me implies a "certainty of failure - if not skillfully avoided", or something to that nature. To reach "hardcore", survival would have to be an actual issue, something that makes you drop whatever you're doing to solve a survival issue before carrying on. Or having to specifically work for, at least.

 

As it stands, the survival elements are basically solved by the same thing you'd be doing After solving the survival issues - "just do your trader loop". There's not really anything to do specifically about survival in any stage of the game, it just solves itself by raiding more cabinets and end loots. Day 1, run to trader, make your stone axe and club, get a quest. Find food at quest, eat it. If unlucky, buy food from vending machine at trader. I can't really call that even "survival effort", much less hardcore.

 

Now, 7dtd is only partially survival, for sure, with plenty of other core elements; this makes it easier to be lenient with the description, but I'd still see "hardcore survival" as an error. It's partially a balance problem, the game could be tuned to get to a hardcore survival feel out of the current mechanics, but as it stands, the solution to all current survival challenges is basically "just do the trader loop".

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Great. Then 7 Days to Die qualifies for all the customers who perceive it that way and I am confident that enough people do that the description does not warrant editing.

 

 

Well they only perceive the game as hardcore when playing it, if they have no comparison. So you are going to let the majority that has absolutly no experience deceide what is wrong and what is not wrong? That´s usually not a great idea. I mean there isn´t a real lot of harm done here and mostly to TFP as there will be some people that are dissapointed to a certain degree. But generally it´s a bad idea to let the majority deceide.  If only that would also be the case if it´s about the game itself. Ah well.

 

Another small step that leads more and more to TFP just beeing like the majority of the industry. Well, there is always new indie studios to try out and i don´t see the survival genre dying anytime soon.

 

 

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20 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

But generally it´s a bad idea to let the majority deceide.

 

Its not the majority choosing. Its just Rick who makes the final decision and that's what he went with. Its not about the majority choosing the descriptor, its about the majority not being disappointed by their expectations based on the descriptor. Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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23 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Its not the majority choosing. Its just Rick who makes the final decision and that's what he went with. Its not about the majority choosing the descriptor, its about the majority not being disappointed by their expectations based on the descriptor. Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.

 

Well they will be dissapointed once they play other survival games that are harder. It´s a shortsighted view only thinking of people who have their first experience in the genre with this game.

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26 minutes ago, Roland said:

Only a minority will be disappointed that it didn't live up to their expectations.

I'll try to use the same level of logic to formulate a response; What, you don't care about the minorities?!  What an outragist and a logophobe to boot! :)

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27 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Well they will be dissapointed once they play other survival games that are harder. It´s a shortsighted view only thinking of people who have their first experience in the genre with this game.

 

Possibly they'll be disappointed or possibly they'll just feel like they graduated to a higher level of hardcore and not hold any grudge against 7 Days to Die for daring to call itself hardcore. I believe the second to be true. Honestly, you sound like those regulars at the comic book store who argue every little definition and continuity issue and care about all the minute details which makes them disappointed in certain issues that nobody else in the world who reads the comics cares about. Frankly, I doubt we could ever satisfy the hardcore survival elite fans no matter what.

 

Regardless, shortsighted or not, the description isn't likely to change. :)

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49 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

Possibly they'll be disappointed or possibly they'll just feel like they graduated to a higher level of hardcore and not hold any grudge against 7 Days to Die for daring to call itself hardcore. I believe the second to be true. Honestly, you sound like those regulars at the comic book store who argue every little definition and continuity issue and care about all the minute details which makes them disappointed in certain issues that nobody else in the world who reads the comics cares about. Frankly, I doubt we could ever satisfy the hardcore survival elite fans no matter what.

 

Regardless, shortsighted or not, the description isn't likely to change. :)

This could be done... how = take 7dtd mix with project zomboid --> you will get perfect game for hardcore fans

 

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Just to clarify, in case I was misinterpreted. I'm not saying that description is "a scam", I'm not saying that TFP are lying by saying that.

I'm just saying that until the devs fix and/or improve some of the survival mechanics, that description is not currently in line with how most of the survival elements play.

 

Fixes and improvements needed, in my opinion, are:

  1. Make effects from cold/hot weather significant again (make clothing great again!)
  2. Reintroduce diseases and illnesses: stay out in the cold too much? You get a cold! Stay more? You can even get the Flu.
  3. Make hunger and thirst have more relevant effects: dizzy effect when very thirsty and lower stats when very hungry.
  4. Introduce mental health: the old Starvation mod had this part done very well (if you go insane, you start hearing REAL voices whispering!)
  5. (Re)introduce extreme weather events (depending on biome): sand storms in the desert, snow storms in the snow biome, lightning strikes in the woods!
  6. (Re)introduce a wellness system: if you eat a balanced diet you'll be full strength, but if you only eat meat or if you only eat veggies you'll get weak and then ill.
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5 hours ago, Roland said:

 

So only one game at a time can ever claim itself to be hardcore? I don't think so. "hardcore" isn't the heavyweight championship belt which only ever belongs to one person at a time. "hardcore" is the heavyweight category of which many belong and strive to be the champion. 


Actually a new belt is given out each time someone wins.  The belt does not get endlessly passed back and forth.  
 

so, many people could, and usually do, have belts at the same time :)

Edited by SnowDog1942 (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Jost Amman said:

Just to clarify, in case I was misinterpreted. I'm not saying that description is "a scam", I'm not saying that TFP are lying by saying that.

I'm just saying that until the devs fix and/or improve some of the survival mechanics, that description is not currently in line with how most of the survival elements play.

 

Fixes and improvements needed, in my opinion, are:

  1. Make effects from cold/hot weather significant again (make clothing great again!)
  2. Reintroduce diseases and illnesses: stay out in the cold too much? You get a cold! Stay more? You can even get the Flu.
  3. Make hunger and thirst have more relevant effects: dizzy effect when very thirsty and lower stats when very hungry.
  4. Introduce mental health: the old Starvation mod had this part done very well (if you go insane, you start hearing REAL voices whispering!)
  5. (Re)introduce extreme weather events (depending on biome): sand storms in the desert, snow storms in the snow biome, lightning strikes in the woods!
  6. (Re)introduce a wellness system: if you eat a balanced diet you'll be full strength, but if you only eat meat or if you only eat veggies you'll get weak and then ill.

But they will never do this because people would complain - Roland give few example what people suggesting 

Quote

"There are plenty who see this game as very hardcore and even too hardcore in its present state for their liking. We even have mods that change the game to be less hardcore like we have mods that push it further towards more. One that comes to mind is the one that makes all the animals friendly and all of the zombies neutral unless attacked first. Some people see that as the perfect amount of hardcoreness that they desire for the game. Someone else posted awhile back that the game shouldn't allow us to die but should just make us have to eat more by having damage hit our hunger gauge instead of having hitpoints and that we never should have to look at the player stats page and see number of deaths. That was too hardcore for comfort for them." 

So no chance for such change because this create review bombing xd

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1 hour ago, warmer said:

Your definition of difficulty is inversely proportional to the number of hours you have spent playing the game.

Unfortunatly no.... i wish it was true.

If you spend 100 hours playing MC and then 100 playing factorio you will always say that factorio is much much harder.  Trust me. I'm not pro. But if pros sayes that for example project zomboid is always "high alert" diffuclty this mean hours don't change hardcore game into normal

25 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@Jost Amman As Matt pointed out, most of that is not going to happen sadly.

 

But maybe, just maybe, that could be an extra hardcore game mode they make once the game is finished. @Roland?

Honestly chances are almost 0. Why? TFP want to make another games so they want to finish 7dtd fast

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47 minutes ago, Matt115 said:

Unfortunatly no.... i wish it was true.

I am pretty bored with the difficult once I had over 1000 hrs so I made an edit to the spawn.xml and it's been making it a lot more fun/difficult

Put this .xml into \steamapps\common\7 Days To Die\Data\Config
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VdQpPG0w3THx7XTLeXiZyDlh9WsiW8MY?usp=sharing

and make a new random gen map. 2.5x Zeds per spawn at a much faster respawn rate. This makes the game feel a lot more "lived in" regarding populations of places. With this you can't wipe out an area quickly and become comfortable for days on end like you can with vanilla spawn.xml

The biome.xml I made to add more cars/thicken forests/add more rocks/more guts and gore - not a difficulty modifier per say, but more of an atmospheric change. Same link for that one if you are curious.

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1 minute ago, warmer said:

I am pretty bored with the difficult once I had over 1000 hrs so I made an edit to the spawn.xml and it's been making it a lot more fun/difficult

Put this .xml into \steamapps\common\7 Days To Die\Data\Config
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1VdQpPG0w3THx7XTLeXiZyDlh9WsiW8MY?usp=sharing

and make a new random gen map. 2.5x Zeds per spawn at a much faster respawn rate. This makes the game feel a lot more "lived in" regarding populations of places. With this you can't wipe out an area quickly and become comfortable for days on end like you can with vanilla spawn.xml

The biome.xml I made to add more cars/thicken forests/add more rocks/more guts and gore - not a difficulty modifier per say, but more of an atmospheric change. Same link for that one if you are curious.

Well for aestetic point of view - i hope there will be more types of dead corpses in A21.

Well difficulty don't mean hardcore - hardcore is more like... a lot of mechanics you can lost a lot in few seconds etc.

Cod have "1 hit kill" diffuculty but isn't fun at all.

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9 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

Suvival -  if "radical" right is project zomboid, then a little bit could be the forest 3 should be hm.... well idk how to write because title of this game is considered as "rude word". Then you have factorio after that Medieval dynasty and after that 7DTD and 'radical" left MC -

 

Wait a moment. Are you saying Factorio has Survival in the game? Where?

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Crank your zombie damage against blocks to max, turn on feral sense, up difficulty to max, set sprint day and night, and add in my spawn files 2.5x spawn amount everyday.

Then set it to 60min days, bloodmoon to daily, with no loot respawn, no airdrops, 

 

Play dead is dead. 

No one can pull that off for long my friend. That is PLENTY hardcore enough for anyone. That makes the game so hard it isn't fun anymore. BEYOND hardcore. 

Edited by warmer (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

2 hours ago, Jost Amman said:

We were talking about "hardcore survival", not about hardcore difficulty in games.

I don't know how the topic steered in that direction... :suspicious:

 

the essential definition of survival is "not dying" so either you are being difficult for the sake of it, or dont want to mod your game to suit your taste.

 

Have some agency, take control of your satisfaction, or accept the fact that you've played a game until you exceeded its base mechanics. You beat vanilla. Now go find a mod for more of a challenge in your desired direction, or stop playing.

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4 minutes ago, warmer said:

so either you are being difficult for the sake of it

No, he isn't. He's talking about a genre of games called "Survival games". Minesweeper is all about not dying, but that doesn't make it a survival game. PUBG is all about surviving the longest and that isn't a survival game. "Hardcore survival game" implies things, that aren't being met.

 

If that isn't a topic you wish to discuss, you're free not to :)

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1 hour ago, warmer said:

the essential definition of survival is "not dying" so either you are being difficult for the sake of it, or dont want to mod your game to suit your taste.

 

Have some agency, take control of your satisfaction, or accept the fact that you've played a game until you exceeded its base mechanics. You beat vanilla. Now go find a mod for more of a challenge in your desired direction, or stop playing.

 

Ok. so pretty much the majority of games is survival then, inlcuding things like super mario games? The survival genre isn´t about not dying alone. Not dying isn´t a genre as you can die in the majority of games.

 

The list Jost posted above pretty much sums up what survival as a genre is about.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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I’ve not played The Long Dark or Green Hell. Do either of those games start to feel trivial from a survival aspect once you gain enough experience with them and come to know exactly what you should do and where to go in order to overcome whatever might be threatening your life at a given moment in the game?  If not, why not?  How do those games remain hardcore survival for the fan with 1000+ hours? @theFlu brought up the point about gameplay loops that trivialize survival and that the gameplay loop that does that in 7 Days involves the trader and is easily discernible after not too many hours playing the game. 

In these other games that deserve the title hardcore survival, what is it that makes survival difficult no matter how experienced you are with the game?

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