It's all gone wrong, terribly wrong.

[meganoth]

6 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

The thing is, I genuinely believe that it would make the game more fun. As I've explained before: I figure a change like that would make weapons more equal and would let people mix and match weapons some more, plus "backup" guns would be more viable. This is an idea I've gotten after making my post about removing attributes.

 

Yet, the responses I got from both you and Roland seem to kinda boil down to (imo): No because muh RPG. Ironically, here I am, arguing for more freedom in roleplaying.

 

I don't deny that a game with all weapons in access has some advantages. I know because 7D2D once was that way. And if I would be playing the game just once every alpha to see some new features and then stop I would agree with you that it would make more sense.

 

But since A18 I have experienced what the attribute aka class system of 7D2D does. If I play a new game in the same alpha I can just select a different attribute and I have a different gameplay and I'm using a different weapon, and sometimes one I would never use if I had my favourite weapon as an alternative.

 

In co-op multiplayer with less than 6 players it is great because everyone can just pick a different attribute and nobody will interfere with the tasks and weapons of the others. The disadvantage is if you have someone in the group who only wants to be the same role all the time, but luckily we don't have someone like that in the groups I play. We all have some preferences, but we all like to change the routine once in a while

 

I don't expect you to change your opinion here, you have different tastes in gaming than I have and maybe you can play this game again and again without changing the routine and it keeps fresh for you. Or you have no problem changing the routine, or you only play it once in a while.

 

6 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

Guess we just have different definitions of "fun".
 

I figure my argument still stands, Salvage Operations does not ONLY give you more brass and Mother Lode does not OLNY give you more coal/nitrate. Combat perks give you more DPS, that's it. The (sometimes) increased perk cost seems justifiable imo.

 

Yes, but more DPS means less ammo use as you kill enemies with less bullets.

 

6 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Btw - to @meganoth - Stat's usually mean a lot in fps and skill a lot of in rpg. In cod you can be rly good and always lose. why? Well stuff - depending on cod --> Noob tube army ,  granade spamming , "commando" knifing,  meta weapons etc. 

In some RPG like Vampyr you can beat much more powerfull enemies if you can dodge attack, using location design etc.  even in FPS mixes like bordelands if you know how to use map, which enemy attack first  you can kill enemy even if they are 20 levels more powerfull.

Even in musou games you can elimiante much powerfull enemies if you know what to do ( finding crates on map, learn how musou attack animation looks like etc)

 

I don't think we are talking about the same things. I meant RPG character stats (aka abilities, and perks)when I was talking about stats

 

Edited May 24, 2022 by meganoth (see edit history)

[Matt115]

1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

I don't think we are talking about the same things. I meant RPG character stats (aka abilities, and perks)when I was talking about stats

 

Yep cod in warzone have this too - special ammo, perks, armor etc

[Roland]

7 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

Yet, the responses I got from both you and Roland seem to kinda boil down to (imo): No because muh RPG. Ironically, here I am, arguing for more freedom in roleplaying.

 

Hmmm...no. I use roleplaying as a way to self limit and impose rules on myself based on what I want my character to be. But that is definitely not the reason I gave for not wanting the weapons to be equalized. I enjoy asymmetrical design and feel that it allows for a much different feeling upon subsequent playthroughs. I don't want the weapons to all be equal and I don't personally need them to be equal in order to use them. I use weapons based on what I'm in the mood for and am unconcerned about whether I could be killing zombies faster with a "better" weapon.

[No_Name_Idea]

Meh, I figure we'll never agree because we apparently consider different things as "fun". I guess there ain't no point in going against 2 mods since the idea will never get considered regardless.

At this point we're arguing about highly subjective things anyway. I still think that removing dmg+ would be good, but I guess I'm a minority here.

[meganoth]

2 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

Meh, I figure we'll never agree because we apparently consider different things as "fun". I guess there ain't no point in going against 2 mods since the idea will never get considered regardless.

At this point we're arguing about highly subjective things anyway. I still think that removing dmg+ would be good, but I guess I'm a minority here.

 

It doesn't matter that we are mods. We don't have more influence in the direction of the game or what the devs implement. We don't "consider" good ideas and bring them to the attention of the devs, we are not gatekeepers in any way.

 

On the other hand lots and lots of players post their wishes here in the forum. You need to convince at least one developer who is reading your arguments that it really would be beneficial to change the game your way. And then convince the other devs in a conference as well

 

Imagine  you were creating a game yourself, have considered lots and lots of your own ideas and in 7 years tried out some and then kept the ones you liked best. Would it really be easy to convince you that the advancement system needs to be changed from the version you settled on after trying out a few and settled on for being the best ?

 

14 hours ago, Matt115 said:

Yep cod in warzone have this too - special ammo, perks, armor etc

 

We are not talking about special ammo or armor. Perks, yes, that is a sign that cod has some RPG elements included

 

[Rotor]

3 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

2 mods

HA!

 

Mod1 and Mod2

 

Always 2 there are!

[No_Name_Idea]

Man, those spam bots are getting worse and worse

  

2 hours ago, meganoth said:

It doesn't matter that we are mods. We don't have more influence in the direction of the game or what the devs implement. We don't "consider" good ideas and bring them to the attention of the devs, we are not gatekeepers in any way.

 

On the other hand lots and lots of players post their wishes here in the forum. You need to convince at least one developer who is reading your arguments that it really would be beneficial to change the game your way. And then convince the other devs in a conference as well.

I figure I've already said pretty much all I had to say, we just began arguing in circles.

  

1 hour ago, Rotor said:

Always 2 there are!

No more. No less. A Master and an apprentice. 😆

Edited May 25, 2022 by No_Name_Idea (see edit history)

[Roland]

Dibs on Master!

 

Go ban some spambots Darth Mega! It is inevitable.

 

 

9 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

Meh, I figure we'll never agree because we apparently consider different things as "fun". I guess there ain't no point in going against 2 mods since the idea will never get considered regardless.

At this point we're arguing about highly subjective things anyway. I still think that removing dmg+ would be good, but I guess I'm a minority here.

 

Keep bringing it up when the topic comes up. You never know. I have been arguing for food spoilage, tool degradation, actual death penalties, and zip lines for years and have bupkiss to show for it.  They teased me with ziplines for a moment but pulled the rug out from under me and laughed. Everybody laughed...

[No_Name_Idea]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

actual death penalties

Man I fell ya, the game is just so much more tense (and therefore fun imo) when I set the backpack to delete all on death.
 

2 hours ago, Roland said:

zip lines

Tbh I don't even know were they'd be useful. I figure that just a regular ol' rope would be a more universally useful addition.

[Man with a hat]

12 hours ago, No_Name_Idea said:

 but I guess I'm a minority here.

You and me both. You will never ever win an argument against Roland and his fanclub. This forum is for fanboyz, not for critics, not even for constructive crticism. Of course everyone denies this and blame us all for being trolls.

[Roland]

34 minutes ago, Man with a hat said:

You will never ever win an argument against Roland

 

oh contraire...did you not read the thread. He did win an argument up above and I admitted I was wrong.

 

We disagreed on what we think is fun, but all of his points and his arguments are still there for anyone to read and so are mine. What's wrong with having opposing viewpoints on display for people to read and decide what they agree and disagree with? You agree with him, obviously, and you were able to do so because this forum allows for constructive criticism to be posted. It also allows for people to disagree and make their counter arguments.

 

Allowing a thread to have criticism and then not allow anyone to disagree with that criticism is what you are asking for and that isn't the way a forum works.

 

34 minutes ago, Man with a hat said:

This forum is for fanboyz, not for critics, not even for constructive crticism.

 

lol...Same thing you said last year. See you next year.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Roland (see edit history)

[Jinx_DG]

To the OP: 

 

Has any of your originally listed issues been debated to a point you can agree on, or at least accept? If so, which ones?

Has any of your issues been explained in a way that give you informative insight as to why it's the way it is? If so, which points? 

Are there any responses to your issues that you feel helps validate it/them? If so, which response(s)?

Has any information in this thread changed your pov or at least minimized your dissatisfaction with any of your listed issues? If so, which points and what information?

 

I do hope that you are able to see the entire forest as a whole, and not just those few trees that you feel ruins the look. 

 

This game has changed a lot over the years. Some changes cheered for, some grudgingly accepted, and some still being brought up and @%$#ed about long past the debate expiration. It will continue to change until the Dev Team calls it Done. And as same above, some will love it, some not, and others will be what ev. 

 

It's a weird phenomenon I've been starting to notice, but those who have played not only this game, but other games like it, for an extended period of time (years) seem to develop a personal attachment. It's as if any changes made not liked ruin the game and nostalgia begins. You even said, " Most of the things I will list aren't wholly terrible, in fact, the concept might be really good, and I might like it but feel like the implementation took something away that used to be important." 

 

Nostalgia, when examined closely is heavily lased with illusions of happy feelz. Nothing was taken away. Game changes where made. 

 

As a relatively newer player (Start of A19), I've not seen as many changes as you have, so I won't debate any of your points, because your coming from a pov I don't have. With regards to the changes I have been through, some I've loved and some are Meh. Not one has made me feel disheartened. The reason? Because I know the game will change and I will need to adapt to that change. I'm sure some I will like and some I'll not, while others I'll think are Meh (and I'll give feedback via the forums just as you have, everyone has that option) but I'll always see and play the game as it is, not how I think it should have stayed. I think I'm lucky in that regards as a newer player. At least not until Full Release and the planned after release content that is.... Then I'm sure Nostalgia will try to creep on me with those illusions of past happy game feelz.

[Ramethzer0]

5 hours ago, Man with a hat said:

You and me both. You will never ever win an argument against Roland and his fanclub. This forum is for fanboyz, not for critics, not even for constructive crticism. Of course everyone denies this and blame us all for being trolls.

 

Ah, this old gag.

Listen man, if you have to say stuff like that where the rest of the world is against you and needs to change, maybe the world isn't the problem.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Ramethzer0 (see edit history)

[Roland]

(Ramethzer0 is running for president of the Roland Fanclub)

[Dead Wombat]

Well to apease some people.... why not make getting skill up in a weapon make the weapon more usefull/effective?  Any numb nuts can use a gun but rambo can USE a gun!

or if your a crocodile dundee fan.... that ain't a knife THIS is a knife.

[No_Name_Idea]

1 hour ago, Dead Wombat said:

Well to apease some people.... why not make getting skill up in a weapon make the weapon more usefull/effective?  Any numb nuts can use a gun but rambo can USE a gun!

or if your a crocodile dundee fan.... that ain't a knife THIS is a knife.

Uhh... isn't this already the case?

[ISPARTACUSI]

Hey all, I wanted to weigh in on some of the balance problems you've been discussing. I've got real solutions that could actually work:

 

1. In regards to balancing the quest system & stopping people from blasting through the tiers:

You should add an extra-difficult quest between each quest tier that is required in order to unlock the next tier. One thought is to have to defend the trader outpost against a zed horde. It could be something like this: You accept the quest exclamation mark and get a popup that says "A gigantic horde has been spotted heading straight for the outpost. Our scouts estimate it will be here in 3 hours time. You have that long to ready yourself and prepare defenses." They'd have to let you build in (or at least around) the trader's location during that time, but then they could reset the location once the quest is completed. Or if they don't want to go through that trouble, they could just have us defend some other building nearby. The added difficulty of a defend-the-location quest would slow quest progression, add variety, and expand long-term playability b/c you'd have to prepare for each quest before tackling it. Rather than blasting through all the tiers & essentially beating the game before day 14. I like this idea because it imposes balance but wouldn't be a straight-up time limit like others have suggested on here; it's just a big challenge that you won't be able to rush through.

 

2. In regards to the perk system being too OP and becoming locked into a specific weapon type early-on:

Alter the skills progression so that combat skills only are back to learn-by-doing. I.e. you get better with bows by using bows, and as your character levels up you get points that can be spent on perks that modify/give you new abilities with bows. Think of the learn-by-doing aspect as like the "base skill" for a certain combat type, and the perks open up as you gain skill in that combat type. In the current game set-up, this would be comparable to leveling up the "Attribute: Agility" skill by killing zeds with knives & arrows, then unlocking more perks to spend skill points on in that tree as the Agility Attribute levels up. In the early-mid game it will encourage using a variety of weapons, including the early-game crappy weapons. You'll get those early and thus will develop more skill in them than with the late-game weapons. Eventually you'll pick a high-tier weapon, practice with it and stick with it, but because you can't just save up points to max it out immediately, the other weapons will stay viable for longer.

 

3. In regards to quests getting boring:

I actually very much like the questing. The game does focus around them a bit much, but I don't think it would be a problem if we had more variety. This is how you make that happen--The tier 4 & 5 quests get repetitive after a while because there are so few of them. You should add something to make it worth going back to the tier 1-3's. For example, "elite" versions of those quests where you get much harder zeds, or increased number of zeds in exchange for better rewards.

 

I had 7 additional suggestions in my original post on the A21 thread, but I realize what I already posted is a bit wordy. If you like what I said here, go check out the rest (I only have 2 posts now lol, it won't be hard to find). 

 

 

 

[No_Name_Idea]

1 hour ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

Alter the skills progression so that combat skills only are back to learn-by-doing.

Lol I've actually had pretty much the same idea but I figured I shouldn't even bring it up since everyone here seems to have a deep-rooted hatred towards LBD.

 

1 hour ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

1. In regards to balancing the quest system & stopping people from blasting through the tiers:

You should add an extra-difficult quest between each quest tier that is required in order to unlock the next tier. One thought is to have to defend the trader outpost against a zed horde. It could be something like this: You accept the quest exclamation mark and get a popup that says "A gigantic horde has been spotted heading straight for the outpost. Our scouts estimate it will be here in 3 hours time. You have that long to ready yourself and prepare defenses." They'd have to let you build in (or at least around) the trader's location during that time, but then they could reset the location once the quest is completed. Or if they don't want to go through that trouble, they could just have us defend some other building nearby. The added difficulty of a defend-the-location quest would slow quest progression, add variety, and expand long-term playability b/c you'd have to prepare for each quest before tackling it. Rather than blasting through all the tiers & essentially beating the game before day 14. I like this idea because it imposes balance but wouldn't be a straight-up time limit like others have suggested on here; it's just a big challenge that you won't be able to rush through.

Yeah, I'm kinda not feelin' it. Seems kinda too complicated for a simple stop-gap quest. And it's not like people wouldn't speedrun this too.

I have an idea of my own. It might be a @%$#ty one, but I think that maybe we should have all tiers unlocked from the start? Just change it so that there is only one mission from a give tier each day. I mean that we'd get 5 jobs per day, each from each tier. The extra 7th quest reward tier would be the average tier of quests the player has done in the last quest cycle.
It would reduce the tedium of grinding through tiers and a skilled player could go for high-tier jobs from the get go. It would also mitigate the quest farming since there is little point in doing low-tier jobs if you can already do more difficult ones, additionally your bonus 7th reward would be negatively impacted by grinding low-tier tasks.

Feel free to poke holes in this idea, I haven't though about it that much.

Edited May 26, 2022 by No_Name_Idea (see edit history)

[Jeraal]

11 minutes ago, No_Name_Idea said:

Lol I've actually had pretty much the same idea but I figured I shouldn't even bring it up since everyone here seems to have a deep-rooted hatred towards LBD.

 

 

Not everyone hates LBD. I loved it and would welcome it back happily.

[Ramethzer0]

19 hours ago, Roland said:

(Ramethzer0 is running for president of the Roland Fanclub)

*flicks cigarette and crushes it under a boot*

[Kalen]

On 5/24/2022 at 2:39 PM, meganoth said:

Yes, but more DPS means less ammo use as you kill enemies with less bullets.

 

Not the way I shoot

[pahbi]

Not a big fan of the screamers either.

 

Obviously, its the apocalypse and a dangerous world, and things should be trying to kill you, and no place should be 100% safe.

 

But the screamer mechanic is just silly, monotonous and annoying.  Please let it be a placeholder for something better down the road.

 

Give us random waves of stuff to deal with.  Packs of zombies, birds, bears, wolves, killer chickens and vicious zombie rabbits or whatever.

 

I'd like to rig up sticks, strings and cans to get a warning of an attack.

 

 

[eXSe]

On 5/26/2022 at 10:19 PM, Jeraal said:

Not everyone hates LBD. I loved it and would welcome it back happily.

 

 

Just kidding, I'd love to see it back too

[hotpoon]

On 5/16/2022 at 10:38 AM, Novamourne said:

All the things

Well said. I agree on almost all points.
 

QUESTS
Sounded fun in theory, but quests have ruined the game for me. Fully exploring a town is way more fun for me, but knowing I'm getting left behind while everyone else no-lifes the quests bothers me. It's the meta for multiplayer now.
 

GAME STAGE
I didn't care for game stage when they added it, but tying loot to game stage was the worst idea. I'm a big fan of RNG, and not knowing whether you're going to get lucky and find a pink compound bow on day one was half the thrill. My last playthrough I knew I was only going to find stone crap even if I break into a safe, so why bother?  Kill zombies until the game stage gets higher and then go looting. That's sad.
 

SKILLS
My husband and I really enjoyed LBD, though I think it was applied to too many things. I'd prefer LBD for attributes only, and uncoupling specific weapons from specific attributes. I hear a rework is on the cards though, so I guess we'll see.
 

SCREAMERS AND HEAT MAP
I don't mind screamers and heat maps, but I think high skill in sneaking should hide you from zombies, even on bloodmoon.
 

GUN PARTS
I enjoyed gun parts but don't feel strongly about it one way or the other

"SMART" & "GIMMICK" ZOMBIES
I like the gimmick zombies, but don't like the AI.
For me the issue is the way zombies know the hit points of every block in the game and path to you via the easiest route. I'd be ok with one specific gimmick zombie (e.g. the one with the hardhat) to be able to have structural knowledge, but I expect the rest to rush at me via line of sight only. I also expect only the spider zombie (and maybe the cheerleader and skateboarder) to be able to jump far.  Currently they are all super jumpers which doesn't make sense.
My fear is that the devs have realized that with the current fancy graphics they can never have a lot of zombies, so they are making them smart instead.  I'd rather have worse graphics and more zombies.
 

NPCS
I think NPCs could be a good addition, but need to be implemented well. 
 

OTHER
1. The game could benefit from end game content - maybe boss zombies in difficult areas guarding the best loot.  Think of Conan Exiles/Ark Survival Evolved/Valheim. These are fun to prep for, especially in multiplayer.
 

2. All zombies should ALWAYS be searchable. If I have to expend a lot of ammo and risk my life for bloodmoon, it should be worth it for the loot.  

 

3. There needs to be toggles for things that people are highly polarized about (example digging zombies). I don't care one way or the other, but for some people it's a deal-breaker. Just give an option to turn them off. Problem solved.
 

4. I'd like a mode where you have to penetrate the brain to get a kill. You should still be able to do damage to anywhere in the body, but you should need a headshot/cut off head/bludgeon in head to actually kill it.  In State of Decay 2 it was absolutely hilarious to create zombie slugs by chopping off all their limbs.
 

 

[doughphunghus]

16 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

QUESTS

I agree with this too. I kinda wish quests were “found” in loot rarely, or the trader happened to have them sometimes. Having a big pile of them always available is a bit of an annoyance. Of course, I like “finding random stuff” and “maybe the trader doesn’t have any quests today”. Is even go for “huh, the trader didn’t even open today”.

 

19 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

GAME STAGE
 

Yeah, knowing a safe will contain crap early game is a turn off as well. It should always be “I need to check this if I’m able” as the chance to find an exciting “thing” would be worth the time to check. 
 

 

20 minutes ago, hotpoon said:

SCREAMERS AND HEAT MAP
I don't mind screamers and heat maps, but I think high skill in sneaking should hide you from zombies, even on bloodmoon.

Slight disagree, but that would be interesting.  It might be fun for the zeds to not know your position, but like random hordes still come “at you”. As long as you’re sneaky enough (noise wise) they just kinda run/shamble around your area. This way Horde nights are still “anything can happen” as as soon as you make noise, those that heard you come running. And you get to hear them bumping around, with a chance of random encounter if you’re not closed in enough. I guess like “feral sense on” during horde night (wide area of sense) + send hordes to your location. That way in theory I’d you just crouched all night, maybe do crafting without workstation you’d go unnoticed.  But in the morning you’re surrounded by zeds at least.