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4 hours ago, hotpoon said:


 

QUESTS
Sounded fun in theory, but quests have ruined the game for me. Fully exploring a town is way more fun for me, but knowing I'm getting left behind while everyone else no-lifes the quests bothers me. It's the meta for multiplayer now.
 

This is normal in multiplayers that people doing "meta" mostly . I remember when my friend was fishing in terraria a lot because swordfish was rly good

 

4 hours ago, hotpoon said:


"SMART" & "GIMMICK" ZOMBIES
I like the gimmick zombies, but don't like the AI.
For me the issue is the way zombies know the hit points of every block in the game and path to you via the easiest route. I'd be ok with one specific gimmick zombie (e.g. the one with the hardhat) to be able to have structural knowledge, but I expect the rest to rush at me via line of sight only. I also expect only the spider zombie (and maybe the cheerleader and skateboarder) to be able to jump far.  Currently they are all super jumpers which doesn't make sense.
My fear is that the devs have realized that with the current fancy graphics they can never have a lot of zombies, so they are making them smart instead.  I'd rather have worse graphics and more zombies.
 

NPCS
I think NPCs could be a good addition, but need to be implemented well. 
 

OTHER
1. The game could benefit from end game content - maybe boss zombies in difficult areas guarding the best loot.  Think of Conan Exiles/Ark Survival Evolved/Valheim. These are fun to prep for, especially in multiplayer.
 

2. All zombies should ALWAYS be searchable. If I have to expend a lot of ammo and risk my life for bloodmoon, it should be worth it for the loot.  

 

3. There needs to be toggles for things that people are highly polarized about (example digging zombies). I don't care one way or the other, but for some people it's a deal-breaker. Just give an option to turn them off. Problem solved.
 

4. I'd like a mode where you have to penetrate the brain to get a kill. You should still be able to do damage to anywhere in the body, but you should need a headshot/cut off head/bludgeon in head to actually kill it.  In State of Decay 2 it was absolutely hilarious to create zombie slugs by chopping off all their limbs.
 


 

 

Zombie - Yeah but this connected with "you can destroy and bulid things" because if players love to use glitches 

npc -  There will be bandits 

1. Nah this not suit's into 7dtd. Because it's not RE. This more like hm... zombie panic source

2. this.... is kinda pointeless - you could loot corpses in older alpha but most time zombie was empty or had junk like 1 cloth fragment. So they did this for better performance

4. Nope - this is part of zombie AI so this could be problem  to just "turn off"

5. And in cod you can shot everywhere. You have feral zombies, spiders so head shot would be rly hard.  So people would complain because TFP want make  7dtd as 'learn to play" basic for mods

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On 5/26/2022 at 3:19 PM, Jeraal said:

Not everyone hates LBD. I loved it and would welcome it back happily.

I think it's the developers that hate it. Which really doesn't make sense to me, because it was one of the features that was present when the game started to get really popular. That should tell them they were on to something, yet they seem to want to keep switching things around anyways. And then we keep hearing how they're annoyed at fans for suggesting it should come back. It all just seems odd to me 🤨

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Posted (edited)
30 minutes ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

I think it's the developers that hate it. Which really doesn't make sense to me, because it was one of the features that was present when the game started to get really popular.

 

With that argument nothing could have been sensibly changed from when the game became popular.  It would have to go immediately into beta and be released.

 

Now the game is still popular so maybe LBD had nothing to do with the popularity. If it had seriously declined after changing the system then I would suspect they would have reevaluated, but that didn't happen

 

 

30 minutes ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

That should tell them they were on to something, yet they seem to want to keep switching things around anyways. And then we keep hearing how they're annoyed at fans for suggesting it should come back. It all just seems odd to me 🤨

 

"I want LBD"

"Sorry, no"

"But I want it"

"Sorry, we want something different and thats final"

"But I really really want it"

"No"

"Yes, I want LBD"

"No"

"I want, I want, I want"

"Arrgh"

 

That surely sounds annoyed and rightfully so. 😁

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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If you really like LBD then learn from the fact that you will not be doing such in game.  :p

 

Unless you meant Locate Build Destroy, in which case you'll be doing a lot of that in game.

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16 minutes ago, Maharin said:

If you really like LBD then learn from the fact that you will not be doing such in game.  :p

 

Unless you meant Locate Build Destroy, in which case you'll be doing a lot of that in game.

Still better advice that "make mod yourself!"

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4 hours ago, Matt115 said:

But if so many people ask about that maybe this mean they are right xd

 

You can only ask for what you don't have.

 

I would ask Khaine to remove LBD from his otherwise excellent mod if I thought there were any use in asking.

 

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3 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

You can only ask for what you don't have.

 

I would ask Khaine to remove LBD from his otherwise excellent mod if I thought there were any use in asking.

 

And we don't have this in 7dtd. Mods are like ..... fanfics of books - you can find very good but are not offical right? 

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9 hours ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

I think it's the developers that hate it. Which really doesn't make sense to me, because it was one of the features that was present when the game started to get really popular. That should tell them they were on to something, yet they seem to want to keep switching things around anyways. And then we keep hearing how they're annoyed at fans for suggesting it should come back. It all just seems odd to me 🤨

 

I don't see this change as complete overhaul or "once again switching everything around". The A20 system is still intact for A21 with the exception that learning crafting recipes for most things have been shifted from perks and books over to magazines. You still progress your skills of using the weapons and tools exactly the same way. All they did was decouple the crafting of recipes from the attributes (which I might add) was something people were asking for.

 

In other words the A21 perk and crafting system have undergone a development iteration that splits off crafting from the attributes and the use skills and at the same time encourages players to explore and scavenge-- which are core features of the gameplay. 

 

This change doesn't have anything to do with Learn By Doing. The devs don't hate it, btw. They just don't consider it any longer. It was dropped from development 4-5 years ago from their perspective and they long ago moved on. Its only certain fans that won't let go and bring it up again and again and again...futilely, I might add. As for being annoyed about it being brought up over and over and over, they've learned to live with such things thanks to all the console gamers. :)

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Roland said:

In other words the A21 perk and crafting system have undergone a development iteration that splits off crafting from the attributes and the use skills and at the same time encourages players to explore and scavenge-- which are core features of the gameplay. 

Are building and mining also core features of the game or just activities that you can do when you feel like it? I only ask because in this game you can get along just fine without these two activities, but not without looting.

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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11 hours ago, Matt115 said:

And we don't have this in 7dtd. Mods are like ..... fanfics of books - you can find very good but are not offical right? 

 

And you are like ... the guy who lost a juwel on one side of the street but searches on the other side because there is light there.

 

There are lots of games with tons of official lore to sink your teeth in. Lore is something you won't find much in 7D2D and I suspect whatever will come will not be enough for you. I see 3 more years of morose comments in your future 😁

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12 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You can only ask for what you don't have.

 

I would ask Khaine to remove LBD from his otherwise excellent mod if I thought there were any use in asking.

 

I would so love to see his response if you actually did ask for it to be removed, especially if you asked in his discord..... 🤣

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

And you are like ... the guy who lost a juwel on one side of the street but searches on the other side because there is light there.

 

There are lots of games with tons of official lore to sink your teeth in. Lore is something you won't find much in 7D2D and I suspect whatever will come will not be enough for you. I see 3 more years of morose comments in your future 😁

I don't mean lore here - it's like people would asking valve for return of shield into cs go but valve said : "welll we don't want to add shields because you can find shields in mods"

Edited by Matt115 (see edit history)
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Matt115 said:

I don't mean lore here - it's like people would asking valve for return of shield into cs go but valve said : "welll we don't want to add shields because you can find shields in mods"

 

You don't get how it works. TFP will do their game how they like. Since there are mods, TFP or helpful forum users will give the answer: "A mod does that" to some requests. IF they didn't have a moddable game, the answers would likely just be: "Sorry, not possible".

 

In other words, 7D2D without mods would not help you at all. There would not be a single zombie type more, there would not be any additional lore. There would not be LBD.

 

At max there would be a few more simple options switches in already, stuff that doesn't make additional work to support it through alphas.

 

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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6 hours ago, RipClaw said:

Are building and mining also core features of the game or just activities that you can do when you feel like it? I only ask because in this game you can get along just fine without these two activities, but not without looting.


Building and mining are definitely important core parts of the game but like you said, you don’t have to engage in those activities. So maybe exploring and scavenging are the most core. 😂 

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15 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I don't see this change as complete overhaul or "once again switching everything around". The A20 system is still intact for A21 with the exception that learning crafting recipes for most things have been shifted from perks and books over to magazines. You still progress your skills of using the weapons and tools exactly the same way. All they did was decouple the crafting of recipes from the attributes (which I might add) was something people were asking for.

 

In other words the A21 perk and crafting system have undergone a development iteration that splits off crafting from the attributes and the use skills and at the same time encourages players to explore and scavenge-- which are core features of the gameplay. 

 

This change doesn't have anything to do with Learn By Doing. The devs don't hate it, btw. They just don't consider it any longer. It was dropped from development 4-5 years ago from their perspective and they long ago moved on. Its only certain fans that won't let go and bring it up again and again and again...futilely, I might add. As for being annoyed about it being brought up over and over and over, they've learned to live with such things thanks to all the console gamers. :)

 

 

I'm personally looking forward to the change, as I find the current crafting system has a lot of drawbacks.  That said, I am expecting, maybe incorrectly, a fairly major perk overhaul to go with the new crafting system.

 

As perks that were generally only taken to unlock recipes won't do that any more, they'll need significant improvement in order to be in any way competative.  Sure, perking increases your chance to loot magazines in that area, but I really can't see anybody spending perk points into cooking if all it does is shorten cooking times.  Cooking time is just not a big enough deal to warrant spending perk points on.  20% chance per perk point to output two dishes instead of one when cooking?  That might be worth having...

 

As the new crap perks need improvement, logically this would be the opportunity to sort out the old virtually useless perks, to make them competative with the new baseline.  Put that all together and that's a fairly major overhaul of the entire perk system, not just crafting.

 

Of course the plan might be to just rip out the crafting element and leave perks as they are, but that's a really, really bad idea in my opinion.  I'm already saddened by how many just plain bad perks there are.  Not niche, just downright horrible.  And this coming from someone who really tries to make odd builds work rather than just going with the really obviously good choices.  Making a load more perks join the virtually useless club would be a real shame, even if it is just for the duration of an alpha and the perk balance comes with a subsequent release.

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7 hours ago, meganoth said:

 

You don't get how it works. TFP will do their game how they like. Since there are mods, TFP or helpful forum users will give the answer: "A mod does that" to some requests. IF they didn't have a moddable game, the answers would likely just be: "Sorry, not possible".

 

In other words, 7D2D without mods would not help you at all. There would not be a single zombie type more, there would not be any additional lore. There would not be LBD.

 

At max there would be a few more simple options switches in already, stuff that doesn't make additional work to support it through alphas.

 

 

I agree about mechanics. But enemies, vehicles etc are diffrent  - let say 7dtd mods don't exist but still people asking for more content  so that could be done by DLC. Well there is usually two option - 1. finish game totaly  and maybe sometimes make fixes  , start making new game or stop making games ( like gothic devs)  etc 2. Make one dlc few or until dlc income will be no longer profitable  in like conan or ark situation

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I recently "stuck my head in the door" with 7DTD again, been about a year or so.

 

I can definitely see an improvement in game performance and appearance (on most things). That's reassuring from an old adopter's PoV.

While I can see some of the OP's points, I just decided to put the game down for long periods of time until they get into Beta. Too many iterations to fool with for me. It probably makes me a throwback player as I am not up-to-speed on 7DTD gameflow, etc. Anybody who's been around since early days knows the Devs are going to do it the way they want, like it or not. So I just decided to wait them out and see what the Beta holds in store.

 

The price I paid many years ago wasn't very expensive, so I don't hold a grudge against TFPs for failing to meet personal wants in 7DTD. I will reevaluate it when the time comes.

 

Kind of reminds me of Raphael's recent The Long Dark announcement to move to (mostly) paid content in the future. Some folks were quite upset, but my initial investment has gone on long enough and if it means me ponying up a few dollars to enjoy new content, so be it.

 

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On 6/3/2022 at 5:24 PM, Matt115 said:

I agree about mechanics. But enemies, vehicles etc are diffrent  - let say 7dtd mods don't exist but still people asking for more content  so that could be done by DLC. Well there is usually two option - 1. finish game totaly  and maybe sometimes make fixes  , start making new game or stop making games ( like gothic devs)  etc 2. Make one dlc few or until dlc income will be no longer profitable  in like conan or ark situation

 

I vastly prefer DLC

 

 

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On 6/2/2022 at 10:37 PM, Roland said:

 

I don't see this change as complete overhaul or "once again switching everything around". The A20 system is still intact for A21 with the exception that learning crafting recipes for most things have been shifted from perks and books over to magazines. You still progress your skills of using the weapons and tools exactly the same way. All they did was decouple the crafting of recipes from the attributes (which I might add) was something people were asking for.

 

In other words the A21 perk and crafting system have undergone a development iteration that splits off crafting from the attributes and the use skills and at the same time encourages players to explore and scavenge-- which are core features of the gameplay. 

 

This change doesn't have anything to do with Learn By Doing. The devs don't hate it, btw. They just don't consider it any longer. It was dropped from development 4-5 years ago from their perspective and they long ago moved on. Its only certain fans that won't let go and bring it up again and again and again...futilely, I might add. As for being annoyed about it being brought up over and over and over, they've learned to live with such things thanks to all the console gamers. :)

 

 

Hey Roland & Meganoth. First, thanks for your responses. Idk if your 'moderator' status means you have any official affiliation with TFPs or not, but it's still nice to get feedback on ideas from someone whose opinions have weight. This is the best game I've ever played. Period. That means I have some passion about what happens to it.

 

Next, to respond to your comments: I actually agree--I think many of the A21 changes will be nice. I particularly like the fact that there will be more magazines, and that crafting skills will now be attached to what you read. That actually makes sense, from a realism standpoint--you read a bunch of books on woodcrafting, you'll eventually get pretty good at it. It'll give you new ideas and new techniques. The new system also make sense from a gameplay/enjoyment standpoint--It'll make looting continue to be lucrative even in the late game. So please don't think I'm trying to say that the devs are absolutely 100% wrong about the choices they're making. 

 

What I'm saying is that I do think they're wrong to completely discount the idea of a small amount of LBD (or something like it) in the game--in particular, with weapons skills. You can't get good with a bow & arrow by reading books about it IRL. You have to practice. I very much support the idea of having to USE the weapon to get damage increases, accuracy buffs, unlock perks, etc. It shouldn't be possible to move from being an expert in melee, using primarily clubs and never really using other weapons, to being an expert in assault rifles or bows overnight. That is what the current system allows, via skill points. As part of perfecting the game, they should add some mechanic that makes you work with a particular weapon to get good at it. A 'check' on progression.

 

I'm not saying we should go back to the old LBD system. I'm saying there's a void in that department currently in the game. The combat skills are too easy; your ability to dispatch the zeds quickly outpaces the difficulty settings, because when you get an end-game weapon (or even mid-tier most of the time), you can be an immediate expert in it an nothing stands a chance against you. Poof, the game is boring by ~day 30. LBD is one way of fixing that without feeling grindy (because you just... play the game with the new weapon--no specific grind involved), but there are other options. 

 

I'd just like to hear that they're actually working on fixing that void. If you read between the lines, it sounds like they're hearing about it from many players--e.g. the people who keep posting about LBD. I guess it's a little odd that they're not willing to hear good advice from people who've dedicated literal years of their life to playing the game. Wouldn't it be wise to consider the opinions of people with massive expertise in how the game actually plays? TFPs are the experts in the game's inner workings, we (the players who comment) are the experts in what the game FEELS like. We can help make it great(er than it already is). We can point out flaws, give good ideas. We're telling you there's a flaw with the direction the game is headed, and that it's fixable without needing to move backward. But we keep getting shut down.

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3 minutes ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

I'd just like to hear that they're actually working on fixing that void. If you read between the lines, it sounds like they're hearing about it from many players--e.g. the people who keep posting about LBD. I guess it's a little odd that they're not willing to hear good advice from people who've dedicated literal years of their life to playing the game. Wouldn't it be wise to consider the opinions of people with massive expertise in how the game actually plays? TFPs are the experts in the game's inner workings, we (the players who comment) are the experts in what the game FEELS like. We can help make it great(er than it already is). We can point out flaws, give good ideas. We're telling you there's a flaw with the direction the game is headed, and that it's fixable without needing to move backward. But we keep getting shut down.

I think you make a lot of good points regarding the gameplay, and while I really enjoy the current state of the game (as well as what's been announced for A21) I'm the type of player who welcomes change and evolution to the game, so I wouldn't mind seeing a new LBD system like the one you described either.

 

That being said, I would be careful with the notion that TFP only know the inner workings of the game. From what I gather, TFP spend a LOT of time playing just like the rest of us. They aren't faceless corporate drones who code all day. They are very aware of how the game plays and how it feels, and they make adjustments based on their experience, as well as player input. They also like to experiment, which is how I see this new LBL system. They've spoken very openly about how the new system plays in their own extensive playthroughs and they feel good about it enough to let the public try it out. Now, I doubt this was your actual intention behind that last paragraph, but that's how it reads. We as players might be passionate about the game, but so are they.

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45 minutes ago, Syphon583 said:

I think you make a lot of good points regarding the gameplay, and while I really enjoy the current state of the game (as well as what's been announced for A21) I'm the type of player who welcomes change and evolution to the game, so I wouldn't mind seeing a new LBD system like the one you described either.

 

That being said, I would be careful with the notion that TFP only know the inner workings of the game. From what I gather, TFP spend a LOT of time playing just like the rest of us. They aren't faceless corporate drones who code all day. They are very aware of how the game plays and how it feels, and they make adjustments based on their experience, as well as player input. They also like to experiment, which is how I see this new LBL system. They've spoken very openly about how the new system plays in their own extensive playthroughs and they feel good about it enough to let the public try it out. Now, I doubt this was your actual intention behind that last paragraph, but that's how it reads. We as players might be passionate about the game, but so are they.

You're right, I was not trying to discount TPF's knowledge of gameplay. I can see how what I wrote could be perceived that way. I was just trying to point out that if we (the players) are trying to tell them something, they should probably listen to it.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, ISPARTACUSI said:

I was just trying to point out that if we (the players) are trying to tell them something, they should probably listen to it.

 

They do listen but they don't always heed--especially at this stage of development where they are wrapping things up. At the end of the day this is their game and their vision. With thousands of players they are going to get thousands of likes and dislikes and very few people say, "I recognize the design that TFP went with is a good design even though I personally don't care for it." Most people call the game garbage and accuse the devs of not being able to develop their way out of a paper bag if the game is not to their own personal liking.

 

LBD may seem like the most sensible natural and wtf-not ideas to you and many others. However, there are plenty of players who don't like the gameplay that it creates. So who should TFP heed? 

 

The answer is neither. They should make the game according to their own vision and give lots of freedom to modders and make sure there are lots of options available in the final version. Ideas are a dime a dozen and every idea you come up with there will be another person who paid hard-earned money who hates your idea and would be angry if TFP listened to you and implemented your ideas.

 

TFP listens and considers but then ultimately does what their team judges to be best and whatever that is there will be haters who accuse them of not listening to the community and ruining their game, there will be fans who are convinced they posted all the ideas that TFP went with first and feel good that TFP listened and heeded them, and there will be lots of brand new players who never followed development at all and who pick up the game for the first time ever without any history to draw upon and will either enjoy or dislike the game.

 

I can tell you this with my insider knowledge: I would be absolutely shocked if LBD came back to this game for skill progression in any degree. I would also be shocked if they aren't considering it for one of their future games. There are no plans whatsoever to bring back LBD for this game. They have made that very clear.

 

That being said, the current quest system does follow an LBD model. You can do quests without limit and doing them increases your ability to quest incrementally until you reach tier 5 quests. There is no way to get better at questing other than by doing quests.  I, personally, like to look at how the current quest system overwhelms and dominates any other gameplay choices as a reminder for why an LBD model isn't always a good choice for games like this. I notice how loathe people are to start the whole questing process again from the beginning when they get a new trader as a reminder of how LBD can kill replay value in a game such as this. Quests could be greatly improved by making them less LBD-like.  Something to think about. :)

Edited by Roland (see edit history)
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9 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

 

I can tell you this with my insider knowledge: I would be absolutely shocked if LBD came back to this game for skill progression in any degree. I would also be shocked if they aren't considering it for one of their future games. There are no plans whatsoever to bring back LBD for this game. They have made that very clear.

 

That being said, the current quest system does follow an LBD model. You can do quests without limit and doing them increases your ability to quest incrementally until you reach tier 5 quests. There is no way to get better at questing other than by doing quests.  I, personally, like to look at how the current quest system overwhelms and dominates any other gameplay choices as a reminder for why an LBD model isn't always a good choice for games like this. I notice how loathe people are to start the whole questing process again from the beginning when they get a new trader as a reminder of how LBD can kill replay value in a game such as this. Quests could be greatly improved by making them less LBD-like.  Something to think about. :)

1. Well i agree about that. That's why i'm writing about some stuff as hm... "next games ideas"

2. That's a point - you can't be good in everything so you have to be " medicore" in everything or master in 1 thing. Quest could be greatly improved.. but it's too late for 7dtd. Why? because... there is lack of lore and.... lack of certain world vision. A lot of things like hornets were cutted right? 

Lore  idea - people can check some PoI to get Lore info by doing quest - for example - trader told you about sending his mens to secret lab. you go there and collect lab documents and you can learn about lore + rewards.

Lack of certain worls vision - i know 7DTD is their first game but - what about world? planes flying from nowhere so maybe military is still alive etc. My point is - this could help a lot because let to add more quests types - find military chopper, kill special mutant, blow up flat etc. This could make more quests by using logic - blow up to make horde attention somewhere  else, kill special mutant because it can infect people very fast etc.  This need to just answer  1 question - how world have looks like. NMRiH can looks now... silly (source is old now) but it's good example how to make world in zombie games

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