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15 hours ago, meganoth said:

Why do you care about what the tutorial highlights at all?

I don't care.  I was only using that small aspect as an example to the point you seemed to have missed and took it too literal.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

TFP didn't promise perpetual happiness for 20$

 

I never suggested they did.

 

They did, however, promise features years ago that are still not in the game.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

How about showing some gratitude for 9 years of a game held fresh by updates.

 

I did. By buying the game 5x and continuing to play it.  I don't owe anything more than that.

 

16 hours ago, meganoth said:

Make no mistake, if they just had made a beta after the alpha you consider best and released that then the chance that you would still play this game at all would be pretty low.

Not sure about that. There are still plenty of people who play on console and that hasn't been updated in what 5-6 years.  But I get your point.

 

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7 hours ago, Sal said:

I don't care.  I was only using that small aspect as an example to the point you seemed to have missed and took it too literal.

 

Ok. I see that that feature is only for newbies. But if you want to bring it as an example of simplification of the game it doesn't work well. Because a tutorial is supposed to be simple and it does not simplify the game for veterans at all. With or without the signs the tutorial was always a trivial job for a veteran.

 

7 hours ago, Sal said:

I never suggested they did.

 

They did, however, promise features years ago that are still not in the game.

 

If you don't name those features I can't comment on that. Are you talking about VR? 

 

You also can't mean bandits, right? Development takes time.

 

7 hours ago, Sal said:

I did. By buying the game 5x and continuing to play it.  I don't owe anything more than that.

 

I don't mean to say that you owe them anything. You just said "then I would do something to show a bit of gratitude" as if they owed you as a veteran player something. Is there a fine line between gratitude that leads to a demand for features and owing that I don't see?

 

I say veteran players did get a very good deal from this game, but it was always a quid pro quo, both sides get something valuable out of it. When you eventually walk away from this game I would guess that neither you nor the pimps can claim that there are outstanding debts.

 

Continuing to play the game is what you want to do yourself, it isn't really a service you are doing for the pimps. They will surely thank you if you ask them, because they are polite (sometimes 😉). But it is a "thank you" without an implied debt.

There is a large difference between paying monthly for a service game and playing a game for a long time without any costs.

 

7 hours ago, Sal said:

 

Not sure about that. There are still plenty of people who play on console and that hasn't been updated in what 5-6 years.  But I get your point.

 

 

Good point as well, console shows that some diehards would still be playing even if the game had released years ago. Though the current influx of console players comes from the xbox store, before that the forum was very very silent on the console side. Only that that isn't a good measure of how many people still play it there.

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, meganoth said:

 

that. Are you talking about VR? 

 

You also can't mean bandits, right? Development takes time.

 

 

 

Fun fact : there is nothing about bandits in Kickstarter campain but... there is about mode about playing as zombie but nobody remember about that

Play solo, coop or multiplayer in our unique Zombie Nomad Mode be a human, a bandit or a zombie for a no rules experience. 

Edited by Matt115 (see edit history)
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On 6/7/2022 at 4:13 PM, Matt115 said:

this is good example how to do this right.

This is an example of how YOU would do it, not how to do it right. Your vision of 7DTD is just that, your vision and is the right way in your mind only. 

On 6/7/2022 at 4:13 PM, Matt115 said:

but firefighter axe need so many hit's too kill zombie?

The axe is suppose to be used on trees/wood things, not zombies, but when I do use it on zombies I have no problems axing them with one hit when it's to the head. Of course I've also gotten my butt kicked while axing them too, so.....

 

On 6/7/2022 at 4:13 PM, Matt115 said:

No Roland... 7dtd is easy game.  they can find trader very easy and do quest very easy. 7dtd is very fast "learn to play" . and "play on harder setting" hm... here is not solution. Why? zombies are just bulletsponges. Ok i understand why start gun i RE2 need a lot of bullets on normal difficuty to kill zombie - just read this gun decription (it's weak but small pistol). I undestand why stone weapons are weak. okay i undestand that - but firefighter axe need so many hit's too kill zombie?  ( i know about sledgehammer but...  damn sledgehammer should one hit kill spider zombie too) - no more room is good example what i mean - you can one hit kill every zombie using gun except soldiers ( one hand melee is terrible weak but two hand is usually 1 hit kill too) but it's hard - why? infection is rly easy to get, zombie children are so small and fast, number of zombie is big and soldiers zombie need a lot of bullets etc. Yes i know it's not sandbox and zombie limits in 7dtd.  But... this is good example how to do this right. I know it's too late. Just i hope it will be done better in 7dtd 2 . But new 7dtd will released probablymaybe after 10 - 15 years. Damn,..... this sounds so deppresing

You lost me after firefighter axe. Clarification is needed. 

 

 

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On 6/8/2022 at 12:59 AM, Rotor said:

 

Well that depends on your religion :).

 

Oops wrong forum.

 

:)

Way back in 11th grade, there was a chalkboard next to the door in one of my classrooms, and as I was leaving I wrote on it: Living means dying, Dying means death, but Being is Hell. 

 

I got sent to one session of therapy for that.  Unfortunately, mother didn't like the "I feel" statements the therapist suggested I use hence only the one session. Mother then told me..... 

 

On 6/8/2022 at 12:06 AM, theFlu said:

Why are we here, just to suffer?

Depends on which personality I ask.....

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On 6/8/2022 at 7:17 PM, Roland said:

"7 Days to Die does offer a struggle to everyone who hasn't optimized it out of their game by rushing"

 

As the game is designed it is made for more than just one playtrough. And i am sure TFP did aim for that aswell.

 

So what are we supposed to do? Play bad on purpose? Even if you don´t min/max and rush there is not really a struggle. Even for people who are new but played other survival games there is a lack of struggle after the first playtrough.

 

There is a reason that pretty much every overhaul mod makes the game harder.

 

You always get out that argument that people rush. In a sandbox game where you have the option to do different playtroughs. Do you really expect people to play like it´s their first time every time they restart?

 

This game doesn´t live from people who play it for the first time. It would be dead regarding the playernumbers if that was the case. And people don´t buy a game that no one plays.

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, Jinx_DG said:

 

 

You lost me after firefighter axe. Clarification is needed. 

 

 

firefighter axe was earlier that sledhammer

I mean was added earlier

so Firefighter axe was like sledhammer in early versions

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47 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

As the game is designed it is made for more than just one playtrough. And i am sure TFP did aim for that aswell.

 

So what are we supposed to do? Play bad on purpose? Even if you don´t min/max and rush there is not really a struggle. Even for people who are new but played other survival games there is a lack of struggle after the first playtrough.

 

There is a reason that pretty much every overhaul mod makes the game harder.

 

You always get out that argument that people rush. In a sandbox game where you have the option to do different playtroughs. Do you really expect people to play like it´s their first time every time they restart?

 

This game doesn´t live from people who play it for the first time. It would be dead regarding the playernumbers if that was the case. And people don´t buy a game that no one plays.

 

"So what are we supposed to do?" Diffrent builds i guess - one time shotgun and spear another time MG and sledgehammer

Edited by Matt115 (see edit history)
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36 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

There is a reason that pretty much every overhaul mod makes the game harder.

Harder is perspective. Define harder in relation to the overhaul mods please. Zed HP? Crafting? Resource gathering? ect... 

 

DF does have higher hp zeds, but it also gives you ways to kill them.  UL is more resource grindy imo, which could be seen as "harder".  War3zuk is just.... wrong from what I've seen of it. WoT am currently watching a playthrough, but nothing "harder" about it so far. All of these overhauls started as a player "fixing" what they didn't like about their current alpha. They were not created to make the game "harder", but to someone who is not familiar with them they can be, just as vanilla is to those unfamiliar with it. 

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2 hours ago, Matt115 said:

 

"So what are we supposed to do?" Diffrent builds i guess - one time shotgun and spear another time MG and sledgehammer

 

That doesn´t help, playing with another weapon doesn´t make me a new player again and it also doesn´t add any more struggle. Switching from Shotgun to MG just means you need different ressources for ammo for example. 

 

"Rushing everyting is ruining your gameplay" is an overused phrase to end a discussion around here. And then comes the argument that all the balance is done for first timers. Wich i can understand, but a game that lives from replayability should consider long term players also. And not just tell them "don´t rush"

Edited by pApA^LeGBa (see edit history)
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4 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

As the game is designed it is made for more than just one playtrough. And i am sure TFP did aim for that aswell.

 

So what are we supposed to do? Play bad on purpose? Even if you don´t min/max and rush there is not really a struggle. Even for people who are new but played other survival games there is a lack of struggle after the first playtrough.

 

There is a reason that pretty much every overhaul mod makes the game harder.

 

You always get out that argument that people rush. In a sandbox game where you have the option to do different playtroughs. Do you really expect people to play like it´s their first time every time they restart?

 

This game doesn´t live from people who play it for the first time. It would be dead regarding the playernumbers if that was the case. And people don´t buy a game that no one plays.

 

I expect people to play in a way that is fun for them and brings them enjoyment. The game design allows people to rush and many do and are perfectly happy doing it and I have no problem with that. I'm glad they can rush and I'm glad they enjoy the game playing in a way that entertains them.

 

Other people rush but then hate that gameplay loop but they still do it. They want the game changed to suit them which is fine for them to ask but until the game is changed for them (or if it never is changed for them) their options are to 1) Put the game away 2) keep playing in a way that is unfun 3) mod the game to their liking 4) Change how they play.

 

I really don't care whether someone rushes or not as long as they are happy. If they are unhappy and complaining then, yes, I'm going to bring out the argument that rushing is ruining their experience and that they should stop doing it until the game design changes to prevent rushing or they should find a mod that helps them.

 

So do I expect people to play like its their first time every time? Of course not. That is definitely not what I have been saying. Even though I impose limits on myself I definitely don't play like its my first time. 

 

Fact: If you limit yourself to one quest a day and use only wood for the first two horde nights and then cobblestone for the next two and then finally move to concrete, you are going to experience more of a survival struggle gameplay loop than you will by spamming multiple quests a day and rushing to concrete by Day 7. 

 

Do what you want and keep spamming quests and rushing concrete bases and whatever else people do to become 10x more powerful than the game's difficulty progression as quickly as possible and if the result is fun then fantastic. If it isn't and you feel like the survival struggle is gone and you wish it was there then either mod the game or limit yourself until/if the devs change the rules to prevent people from outpacing the game.

 

 

 

 

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26 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

That doesn´t help, playing with another weapon doesn´t make me a new player again and it also doesn´t add any more struggle. Switching from Shotgun to MG just means you need different ressources for ammo for example. 

 

Well there no too many options how make this in 7dtd. I will give example :  increase number of biomes and for example snow biom will be on most maps , but in another game you will have mostly desert etc. would help this same more zombie types etc but... more biom = less performance and that could be problem in 8 player sitauation. So what can be done? Honestly... wait for 7dtd 2. I'm not joking - 7dtd is like M&B -  in orginal M&b there is not so many option, warband have much more but still... a lot of things is missing. Bannerlord is "final form" how M&B should looks like. So.... 7dtd series need time to be "replayable" for veterans

1 minute ago, Roland said:

 

I expect people to play in a way that is fun for them and brings them enjoyment. The game design allows people to rush and many do and are perfectly happy doing it and I have no problem with that. I'm glad they can rush and I'm glad they enjoy the game playing in a way that entertains them.

 

Other people rush but then hate that gameplay loop but they still do it. They want the game changed to suit them which is fine for them to ask but until the game is changed for them (or if it never is changed for them) their options are to 1) Put the game away 2) keep playing in a way that is unfun 3) mod the game to their liking 4) Change how they play.

 

I really don't care whether someone rushes or not as long as they are happy. If they are unhappy and complaining then, yes, I'm going to bring out the argument that rushing is ruining their experience and that they should stop doing it until the game design changes to prevent rushing or they should find a mod that helps them.

 

So do I expect people to play like its their first time every time? Of course not. That is definitely not what I have been saying. Even though I impose limits on myself I definitely don't play like its my first time. 

 

Fact: If you limit yourself to one quest a day and use only wood for the first two horde nights and then cobblestone for the next two and then finally move to concrete, you are going to experience more of a survival struggle gameplay loop than you will by spamming multiple quests a day and rushing to concrete by Day 7. 

 

Do what you want and keep spamming quests and rushing concrete bases and whatever else people do to become 10x more powerful than the game's difficulty progression as quickly as possible and if the result is fun then fantastic. If it isn't and you feel like the survival struggle is gone and you wish it was there then either mod the game or limit yourself until/if the devs change the rules to prevent people from outpacing the game.

 

 

 

 

Hm... Well - even small things like-  mostly snow or mostly desert map can be game changer

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On 6/8/2022 at 2:06 PM, meganoth said:

 

Fall damage is still there, but instead of outright killing zombies (which would be OP) the damage is one third of zombies health. That is quite good for a passive measure that also can be used to collect zombies for grenade or molotov bombardement and seriously slows them down in coming at you.

 

 

If I can die from falling, so should zombies, even without spikes, but ESPECIALLY after going through the massive effort of digging the trench and chopping down a forest for the wood of the spikes, and then having to go and repair all the spikes afterward. 

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@hotpoon Fall damage beeing deadly for zombies makes bloodmoon a joke. You could just sit there and watch them falling to death. You just need to make sure they fall high enough. That´s it. No more danger during horde night. Not even repairs needed.

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7 minutes ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

@hotpoon Fall damage beeing deadly for zombies makes bloodmoon a joke.

 

Not "makes" it a joke, it is a joke. There are dozens of ways to afk and ringelrosi them. Even a proper facetank base with 6-8 electric fence, 10-12 dartraps and 1-2 blades let you afk everything without any cheese.

 

The only solution is: MAKE ZOMBIES STUPID AGAIN!

Then they are dangerous when the just randomly attack everthing everywhere.

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1 hour ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

That´s it. No more danger during horde night. Not even repairs needed.

Oh, you mean something like in this POI ? You only have to remove one block and chill the rest of the night. And thanks to the magic of quests you can make all the damage disappear.

 

 

 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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9 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

99% sure that this will be made impossible if they know about it. Wich they now do propably. 

This is by far not the only POI that can be abused in this way. Almost every POI that is made of concrete is suitable for this. Most of the time you only have to remove a few blocks to prevent zombies from coming to you. The effort is not even remotely as big as digging a shaft down to the bedrock.

 

The benefit of building your own horde base from scratch is currently so small that some players don't build one anymore. They take over a POI and punch a few holes in the roof. During the horde they shoot down or throw Molotovs or grenades at the zombies.

 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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10 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

@RipClaw 99% sure that this will be made impossible if they know about it. Wich they now do propably. 

 

I'm not so sure. There is no easy fix I can see apart from simply increasing block damage.

 

By the way, does that building still work as afk base at warrior or insane in later game?

 

Oh wait, one possible fix: Zombies could get an automatic increase to their block damage every few seconds the longer they live.

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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20 minutes ago, meganoth said:

By the way, does that building still work as afk base at warrior or insane in later game?

The difficulty setting has no effect on block damage nor gamestage. 

 

I have just tested it. I had a Demolisher hit a block on Nomad difficulty and Insane difficulty. Both times he did exactly 500 HP damage per hit. And as far as the gamestage is concerned, you only have to take a look at the gamestages.xml file. The difficulty multiplier is set to a value of 1.2.

 

The only thing that is currently affected by the difficulty setting is what damage you do to zombies and what damage zombies do to you.
 

Edited by RipClaw (see edit history)
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Didn´t realize it´s so easy with POI´s tbh. Never used POI´s during bloodmoon except for the first horde sometimtes.

 

53 minutes ago, meganoth said:

 

I'm not so sure. There is no easy fix I can see apart from simply increasing block damage.

 

By the way, does that building still work as afk base at warrior or insane in later game?

 

Oh wait, one possible fix: Zombies could get an automatic increase to their block damage every few seconds the longer they live.

 

That would punish people who build their own horde base way more. SP with more than 16 Z´s would basically become impossible with a self built horde base.

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On 6/9/2022 at 4:52 PM, meganoth said:

 

 

I don't like zombie block damage as it is.  Let alone give them more hehe.  Actually I think it should diminish the longer they hit a block as the key losing flesh and bones.

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3 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

I don't like zombie block damage as it is.  Let alone give them more hehe.  Actually I think it should diminish the longer they hit a block as the key losing flesh and bones.

Leave block damage as is but have the zombies destroy themselves as they attack blocks. Oops, my rotten arms broke off, now I have to use my rotten face....

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7 hours ago, pApA^LeGBa said:

 

Didn´t realize it´s so easy with POI´s tbh. Never used POI´s during bloodmoon except for the first horde sometimtes.

 

 

That would punish people who build their own horde base way more. SP with more than 16 Z´s would basically become impossible with a self built horde base.

 

Any change will basically "punish" or "reward" someone. Any difficulty increase will make some nonoptimal play option go away, in exchange for giving some difficulty to veterans. This is why such a change would better be limited to higher difficulties.

 

Even in SP I can make sure to kill most zombies and not let them be alive for 4 ingame hours on end. And if three of them escape my scrutiny and reach say double damage  after 4 hours that would effectually now be 19 instead of 16 zombies damagewise. 

But if all 16 reach double damage because you play an AFK base then something like the silo POI may be gone before horde night is over in late game.

 

RipClaw corrected me with the difficulty not having any influence on block damage, but I would still be interested to know how much of the silo would get thrashed by a late game horde. Sure, you can then use multiple POIs. But seriously you can also just mine for a week and build a big concrete block, not that much of a difference.

 

I also don't understand why TFP uses no block damage increase at higher difficulties. It doesn't need to be double or quadruple damage, even 50% more damage might already be enough for somewhat different results. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Rotor said:

 

I don't like zombie block damage as it is.  Let alone give them more hehe.  Actually I think it should diminish the longer they hit a block as the key losing flesh and bones.

 

The topic until now was that the struggle is gone because of rushing and now because of AFK-bases as well. THAT change would completely remove any chance for zombies to break into a POI or self-built horde base. Horde night as a pure shooting gallery

 

Is this just a random "because realism" comment or is the horde night too difficult for you at the moment?

 

Edited by meganoth (see edit history)
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44 minutes ago, meganoth said:

I also don't understand why TFP uses no block damage increase at higher difficulties. It doesn't need to be double or quadruple damage, even 50% more damage might already be enough for somewhat different results. 

There is a option for block damage in the game settings under "Advanced". More specifically, one for the Blood Moon Night and one for the rest of the time. It is possible to set the block damage of the zombies from 25% up to 300% of the base value.

 

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