Homesick for A16. Where has all the difficulty gone from the game?

[Howlune]

A20 has changed a lot for the better, but things I'm noticing now more than ever is the constant streamlining of game play.  It used to be that you had 600 tier levels, found different quality parts for guns, and getting good equipment (mainly guns) was a solid time investment. You were always hunting for better parts, slightly higher tiers. POIS had no "main loot" that you could just skip to...  sure, some had some big boxes hidden away, but there were still major reasons to keep looting as everything had value. They werent just dungeons that any seasoned player knows to just bust a wall down and skip.

 

Now you can immediately rush wasteland and get the absurdly high lootstage bonus from it. Suddenly its raining tier 6 equipment. Complete a quest tier and get a full set of T6 steel or 500... yes... FIVE HUNDRED concrete or steel blocks... what???? There's such little reason to even craft anymore. Guns are everywhere. Pipe guns are made from spit, including an entire machine gun. What happened....?

It's my pimp dream that some of these absurd changes are reverted so people can actually feel like they're working to the top again. The game is so... skippable now.

Or better yet, bring some form of tier expansion back, or let us make it ourselves?

Edited January 24, 2022 by Howlune
forgot to say why this is in pimp dreams (see edit history)

[n2n1]

What happened?

Simplification has happened.

Games should be simple to attract more audience. We do not belong to this category.

Try mods.

Edited January 24, 2022 by n2n1 (see edit history)

[Laz Man]

Loot balance is ongoing.  As far is crafting is concerned, hopefully some more changes come in to make it feel more rewarding/balanced.

[BFT2020]

2 hours ago, Laz Man said:

Loot balance is ongoing.  As far is crafting is concerned, hopefully some more changes come in to make it feel more rewarding/balanced.

 

The concept that madmole was talking about for crafting was encouraging so I am eager to see what TFP do in that regard. 

[Howlune]

Well about loot. Have people been discussing this more? The game has been throwing way too much loot at us as of a20. A19 felt fine. Now T6 is everywhere, ammo oozes out of the ceiling and walls, airdrops and trader quests give 500 steel blocks. The trader quests in particular are nutty with how much they give in these new bundles. So far the only real thing i've seen addressed is making something MORE common, which is acid. Loot value is a massive part of gameplay, especially in an apocalyptic survival game. There's little point in even crafting now.

Yes you can tell me "fix it with mods" but the issue here is is the expectation this sets. Having the game hand you so much loot you struggle to keep it all in storage  absolutely destroys the value it once had. It's the apocalypse, not christmas morning on the daily.

And on that final note, loot doesn't really have much to do with simplification. Just make the best stuff rarer. Its easier to find T6 than beakers lol.

[SenpaiThatIngnoresYou]

14 hours ago, Howlune said:

Well about loot. Have people been discussing this more? The game has been throwing way too much loot at us as of a20. A19 felt fine. Now T6 is everywhere, ammo oozes out of the ceiling and walls, airdrops and trader quests give 500 steel blocks. The trader quests in particular are nutty with how much they give in these new bundles. So far the only real thing i've seen addressed is making something MORE common, which is acid. Loot value is a massive part of gameplay, especially in an apocalyptic survival game. There's little point in even crafting now.

Yes you can tell me "fix it with mods" but the issue here is is the expectation this sets. Having the game hand you so much loot you struggle to keep it all in storage  absolutely destroys the value it once had. It's the apocalypse, not christmas morning on the daily.

And on that final note, loot doesn't really have much to do with simplification. Just make the best stuff rarer. Its easier to find T6 than beakers lol.

 

Yes loot has a problem. here is one example: Beakers are pretty rare. If you do not buy one then odds are you may not find one.  RNG is kinda wonky at the moment. I find tier 6 assault rifles before i find pump shotguns.  I have massive amounts of tier 6 scrap armor, and pipe weapons are as abundant here as they are in fallout 4. However, while wonkey and crazy loot balance is not terrible, and the traders, trader rewards, and airdrops do offset a lot of the loot issues. 

 

I do think difficulty needs some work, but is improving. Take the green forest biome. It used to be the top biome to spawn in, but now between night bears and night wolves, it may not be the best place to be. The desert on the other hand, is safer, unless feral sense is turned up. At the moment the most dangerous biome is not the wasteland but the frozen one, which i argue fits better and the frozen biome should be the end game one in my opinion, unless they change up the wasteland a bit, like with acid rain and make all water their undrinkable, polluted, and flammable, and make the temperatures crazy like hot during the day and frigid at night. 

 

I do hope they update the crafting system. I would like to see interdisciplinary buffs to crafting: like if you have agility points and pistol points you can make shotguns and rifles that reload faster or have smaller spread, or if you have pummel Pete and electrocitioneer you can make crazy bats that do shock and bat stuff. Sure this stuff would be locked at tier 5, take fewer mods, but it would fit your playstyle better and can only be made by you, not found. 

 

What will the new armor system look like? Will that be in the crafting update? will it be some sort of fashion system where we can upgrade clothes? Not sure how i feel about that....

Edited January 29, 2022 by SenpaiThatIngnoresYou (see edit history)

[Roland]

No need to feel homesick for A16. Opt in. She is waiting for you arms outspread.

 

 

[Howlune]

12 hours ago, Roland said:

No need to feel homesick for A16. Opt in. She is waiting for you arms outspread.

 

 

Thanks for not reading the rest.
I'm just making an example of how this game can make itself boring very quickly with these loot decisions, but I certainly hope they're temporary as some have said. The 500 steel/concrete block thing throws a major red flag alone about what's acceptable. And like I said, mods don't count, since that means you're having to alter the game to make it reasonable.

[KageOni]

Filthy casual reporting in!

 

The less crafting I have to do the more I like this game. Sure, I would be ok with good loot being a little harder to find but I would prefer not to craft much of anything. The fact that this game is perfectly playable without investing time into collecting raw materials and crafting items makes this something I can enjoy. 

 

If I didn't get more ammo out of a mission that I put in I wouldn't play the game. Like, who even enjoys sitting at a crafting bench constantly clicking the craft button to get a single round of ammo. 

[Roland]

1 hour ago, Howlune said:

Thanks for not reading the rest.
I'm just making an example of how this game can make itself boring very quickly with these loot decisions, but I certainly hope they're temporary as some have said. The 500 steel/concrete block thing throws a major red flag alone about what's acceptable. And like I said, mods don't count, since that means you're having to alter the game to make it reasonable.

I did read the rest. Your title was the only part I felt a need to respond to. I agree with your other points for the most part but I’m not upset about them like you are because I know the game is still changing and I have the will power to avoid doing things I know will hurt my enjoyment of the game. I’m my current play through we stayed in the forest for the first 40 days before going into the other biomes and the progression felt really nice. 
 

My comment was simply to make sure you realize that if A16 has been the high point of the game, you can still play it. The devs maintain several of the past alpha versions and A16 is one of them. 
 

While you wait to see whether A20 becomes something you like better go play the version you love. <shrug>

[Shockwave1]

On 1/30/2022 at 3:45 AM, KageOni said:

Filthy casual reporting in!

 

The less crafting I have to do the more I like this game. Sure, I would be ok with good loot being a little harder to find but I would prefer not to craft much of anything. The fact that this game is perfectly playable without investing time into collecting raw materials and crafting items makes this something I can enjoy. 

 

If I didn't get more ammo out of a mission that I put in I wouldn't play the game. Like, who even enjoys sitting at a crafting bench constantly clicking the craft button to get a single round of ammo. 

 

Huh? You craft in massive batchs of ammo (and later boxes of ammo). Who crafts single rounds of ammo?

[Qock]

As someone who works a full time job and has other things to do in life, I appreciate not having to invest too much time in a game to see any type of progress and have a good time slaughtering zombies. If I had to put 20+ hours on a playthrough before getting any proper firepower, I wouldn't even start the game to begin with honestly. There's more to life than enndless grinding for resources in a game.

 

 

[n2n1]

15 minutes ago, Qock said:

As someone who works a full time job and has other things to do in life, I appreciate not having to invest too much time in a game to see any type of progress and have a good time slaughtering zombies. If I had to put 20+ hours on a playthrough before getting any proper firepower, I wouldn't even start the game to begin with honestly. There's more to life than enndless grinding for resources in a game.

 

 

This is understandable. But there are mobile games for you. 
Someone likes to play deep .

Edited February 3, 2022 by n2n1 (see edit history)

[Qock]

11 minutes ago, n2n1 said:

This is understandable. But there are mobile games for you. 
Someone likes to play deep .

Nah, I'd rather play a proper game really. For the small minority of dudes living at moms house with no employment or ambitions in life, there's mods

[BFT2020]

3 hours ago, Qock said:

As someone who works a full time job and has other things to do in life, I appreciate not having to invest too much time in a game to see any type of progress and have a good time slaughtering zombies. If I had to put 20+ hours on a playthrough before getting any proper firepower, I wouldn't even start the game to begin with honestly. There's more to life than enndless grinding for resources in a game.

I have a full time job and a family of 4.

 

Every player is different.

 

But this game is setup as a game where you have to progress to obtain items, with the enemy scaling up in difficulty the longer you play and advanced.

 

And grinding for resources is a core aspect of the game.  It sounds like this game is not really for you if you don't want to spend that time to do it.

3 hours ago, Qock said:

Nah, I'd rather play a proper game really. For the small minority of dudes living at moms house with no employment or ambitions in life, there's mods

 

Really?  Not sure why you have to come into the forums and be such a jerk.

 

You don't play with mods, that's fine.  But making a negative comment like that for people that either A) make mods for themselves or others to play, B) like to install mods to change how their game goes, or C)Both A&B

 

But hey, if negatively attacking others because they happen to enjoy this game or play with mods makes you feel better, that says a lot more about you than those people.....

[Alpacko]

On 1/29/2022 at 6:19 AM, Howlune said:

Well about loot. Have people been discussing this more? The game has been throwing way too much loot at us as of a20. A19 felt fine.

i play a19 w/ 25% loot bc every t2+ is basically a walmart w/ more loot than anyone can carry. even food becomes a problem at first. had 2 kill a bear first week 2 avoid starvation. is also play hc/dead is dead, makes everything more intense - especially trying not 2 starve. u still find a lot of ammo, but crafting becomes a viable option again.

 

u dont need a mod 2 decrease loot amount, at least in a19. didnt touch a20 coz magically vanishing bikes/cars give me aids. i thought we were past this.

[mr.devolver]

I would agree that every single POI being a dungeon is kinda lame. Where are all the abandoned houses? You know, I can't quite imagine that when the apocalypse hit, everyone suddenly got obsessed with idea of creating elaborate dungeons in their homes and then hid inside their closets with the weakest doors ever created by humans, but hey that's just me. Maybe I'm thinking about it in a wrong way...

[Qock]

14 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

I have a full time job and a family of 4.

 

Every player is different.

 

But this game is setup as a game where you have to progress to obtain items, with the enemy scaling up in difficulty the longer you play and advanced.

 

And grinding for resources is a core aspect of the game.  It sounds like this game is not really for you if you don't want to spend that time to do it.

 

Really?  Not sure why you have to come into the forums and be such a jerk.

 

You don't play with mods, that's fine.  But making a negative comment like that for people that either A) make mods for themselves or others to play, B) like to install mods to change how their game goes, or C)Both A&B

 

But hey, if negatively attacking others because they happen to enjoy this game or play with mods makes you feel better, that says a lot more about you than those people.....

Listen, I came in here saying that I appreciate the way the game is enjoyable without too much of a time investment, and the reply I got was that I should play mobile games instead. That was a douche response and I replied to it accordingly and from the reactions, it honestly feels like the shoe fits pretty well. 

 

Also, don't you find it a bit strange how the game isn't made for players like me when I am the one who enjoys it the way the developers made it, and you're the ones that needs mods? What type of logic is that really?

 

If you want to run around in the woods chopping down trees for hours, the option is still there for you. The fact that you can choose not too and just occupy an existing building or live more of a nomad life is a strength of the game and not a weakness. There's plenty of games out there that forces you to do tedious resource grinding to progress. 

 

I can also appreciate the realism in the fact that someone looting a gun store, then clearing out an existing building made out of concrete and steel and occupying it, has an advantage over some hobo dude building a shack out of twigs and crafts his own weapons out of old scrap he finds in garbage piles on the ground. I don't really see any reason why the latter should be "rewarded" really, as if that would be a more noble and elite way of playing the game.

 

Personally, if anything, I'd rather see the game abandoning the loot progress completely. It makes more sense to be able to find high tier weapons no matter how early or late into the game you are, as long as you're looking in the right places. Instead of making it impossible to find a good gun in a gun store early game, make it harder to get inside that gun store, or make it more challenging to loot through it. It would make no sense whatsoever for the developers to make the game completely unappealing to "noobs" or casual players just because some neckbeard gets butthurt that he can't bully new players on PvP servers because they might pull out a M16 out of nowhere and fight back. Skill combined with street smarts and sprinkles of luck prevailing over time invested on collecting rocks makes for a way more appealing game experience for most. 

[meganoth]

1 hour ago, Qock said:

Listen, I came in here saying that I appreciate the way the game is enjoyable without too much of a time investment, and the reply I got was that I should play mobile games instead. That was a douche response and I replied to it accordingly and from the reactions, it honestly feels like the shoe fits pretty well. 

 

Also, don't you find it a bit strange how the game isn't made for players like me when I am the one who enjoys it the way the developers made it, and you're the ones that needs mods? What type of logic is that really?

 

If you want to run around in the woods chopping down trees for hours, the option is still there for you. The fact that you can choose not too and just occupy an existing building or live more of a nomad life is a strength of the game and not a weakness. There's plenty of games out there that forces you to do tedious resource grinding to progress. 

 

I can also appreciate the realism in the fact that someone looting a gun store, then clearing out an existing building made out of concrete and steel and occupying it, has an advantage over some hobo dude building a shack out of twigs and crafts his own weapons out of old scrap he finds in garbage piles on the ground. I don't really see any reason why the latter should be "rewarded" really, as if that would be a more noble and elite way of playing the game.

 

Personally, if anything, I'd rather see the game abandoning the loot progress completely. It makes more sense to be able to find high tier weapons no matter how early or late into the game you are, as long as you're looking in the right places. Instead of making it impossible to find a good gun in a gun store early game, make it harder to get inside that gun store, or make it more challenging to loot through it. It would make no sense whatsoever for the developers to make the game completely unappealing to "noobs" or casual players just because some neckbeard gets butthurt that he can't bully new players on PvP servers because they might pull out a M16 out of nowhere and fight back. Skill combined with street smarts and sprinkles of luck prevailing over time invested on collecting rocks makes for a way more appealing game experience for most. 

 

Before I say where I disagree I'd like to mention that this is a perfectly valid opinion about the game. Especially in a section called "Pimp Dream" 😉.

 

Now I would disagree that you are really in sync with the developers. They assume that the base game will not hold people to the game forever because eventually long-time players will know every corner of the world. They assume that people who stay with the game will eventually install mods and that this will give the game a much longer life, just like a typical bethesda RPG.

And you don't need to play 8 hours daily to reach a state where you know almost every house and what to expect any moment, even someone only having time once a week will eventually reach that state if he continues to play the game.

 

Many of the long time players here have mentioned what they do in real live and a lot of them have a job and family. I have a job too and can't play the game all day, but still I have thousands of hours in the game after years of playing it.

 

The game is a mix of several genres, RPG, tower-defense, horror shooter, sandbox and survival. In my opinion none of those genres is dominant. And none will ever go away. The developers also once said they want a typical game to last >40 hours.

Some players though are only interested in one part of the game (aka one genre) and accept other genres in the game as a necessary evil. There are shooter guys who want this game to be a grindless shooter, there are sandbox players who want none of that level-gated progression stuff, and there are survival players who want food to spoil and each wound a survival crisis. None of them will get their ideal game here.

 

But most of them can get the game to still do what they want. Survivalists can install a mod, sandbox players as well. And shooter players have it even easier, they just can use the 300% xp config setting, creative menue or console command giveselfxp to immediately jump over any grind to get to the shooter part (or install a mod that practically does something similar).

 

So it is perfectly ok if you wish this game to drop the loot progress completely. You won't get your wish for vanilla though, that is a sure bet.

 

 

[BFT2020]

5 hours ago, Qock said:

Also, don't you find it a bit strange how the game isn't made for players like me when I am the one who enjoys it the way the developers made it, and you're the ones that needs mods? What type of logic is that really?

 

Where did I say I needed mods to play this game or even stated that I don't enjoy the vanilla game?  I keep two different versions of this game on my computer for each stable:  Version 1 is the vanilla game with nothing modded and version 2 is the latest stable with my mod on it.

 

Version 1 has 2,800+ hours of playtime in it

Version 2 has 200+ hours of playtime in it

 

So who needs mods?  I play both versions, though Version 2 is still in development and may eventually be the one I play for the majority of the time; but that is more of an indication that I have put thousands of hours already in the base game itself which a lot of games in my Steam library wished I would put at least 100s of hours into them.

 

Playing with mods doesn't mean you don't like the base game or don't like what the publisher has done.  I am very grateful for TFP and all of the staff who are working every day to make this a great game and pushing it get it released in final form over the next few remaining development alphas.  I am also very grateful to the TFP for making a game that even casual modders can jump in and tweak it to their satisfaction, knowing that their vision of the game is not common among all players.

 

So I can remove all the recipes from perks and make T0 equipment worse.  I can modify the loot tables to drop less and different items.  I can reduce the amount of food in the world via farming, animals, and drops while increasing the number of zombies one has to fight.

 

The funny thing is, everything you want the game to have can easily be done via mods.

[Roland]

5 hours ago, Qock said:

Listen, I came in here saying that I appreciate the way the game is enjoyable without too much of a time investment, and the reply I got was that I should play mobile games instead. That was a douche response and I replied to it accordingly and from the reactions, it honestly feels like the shoe fits pretty well.

 

You must not have intended it but your first post read as pretty judgmental and insulting to people who play the game more frequently than you do and why they must have enough time to do so. Hopefully, you weren't trolling with that post fishing for a douche response. You could have easily left out all references to having and working a job plus all the other things in life that you have and still expressed appreciation that the game can be enjoyed by all sorts of people with varying amounts of time to play.

 

6 hours ago, Qock said:

Also, don't you find it a bit strange how the game isn't made for players like me when I am the one who enjoys it the way the developers made it, and you're the ones that needs mods? What type of logic is that really?

 

I think everyone is enjoying it the way the developers made it and you should understand that the developers are still making it and the need or lack of need to grind and progress at a slow pace could easily shrink or grow. Right now, you can stay in the forest biome and progress at a slower pace or you can enter the tougher biomes and get a bump to your loot stage and somewhat skip the slower progression. So if we are talking about how the developers made the game and for whom it isn't just players like you and nobody has to use mods unless they really want to slow or speed up progression more extremely than the game already allows. If you are happy with the current pace then that is wonderful but if had to say...work overtime a few weeks then you might need a mod to increase the pace of progression even faster and if I....say became unemployed and divorced and moved in with my mother then I might need a mod to slow down the progression to a glacial pace. (Did I get the two lifestyle situations right?)

 

6 hours ago, Qock said:

If you want to run around in the woods chopping down trees for hours, the option is still there for you. The fact that you can choose not too and just occupy an existing building or live more of a nomad life is a strength of the game and not a weakness. There's plenty of games out there that forces you to do tedious resource grinding to progress. 

 

I can also appreciate the realism in the fact that someone looting a gun store, then clearing out an existing building made out of concrete and steel and occupying it, has an advantage over some hobo dude building a shack out of twigs and crafts his own weapons out of old scrap he finds in garbage piles on the ground. I don't really see any reason why the latter should be "rewarded" really, as if that would be a more noble and elite way of playing the game.

 

Agreed. I prefer taking over existing structures but mostly because I am not much of a builder and repurposing a building brings me satisfaction. I would probably do it regardless of the demands or lack in my real life situation.

 

6 hours ago, Qock said:

Personally, if anything, I'd rather see the game abandoning the loot progress completely. It makes more sense to be able to find high tier weapons no matter how early or late into the game you are, as long as you're looking in the right places. Instead of making it impossible to find a good gun in a gun store early game, make it harder to get inside that gun store, or make it more challenging to loot through it.

 

This won't happen. In fact the current situation where it is so simple to immediately jump into harder biomes and easily get better loot is going to get some fine tuning. Part of that will be handled with raiders and part of that with the weather survival overhaul. I suspect that the event manager will also be able to dynamically make the biomes a lot more difficult for people crossing borders on Day 1 to skip to the good stuff. 

 

So the current implementation is not the developer's final intended design and there will be more stuff coming that may or may not support players with limited time being able to easily skip ahead without progressing without making changes to settings or using a mod. Right now, the player has to choose to start and stay in the forest for a time if they want to fully experience the primitive stage and gradually progress out of it since it is still pretty easy to get in and out of the other biomes without too much risk but with some nice rewards.

 

6 hours ago, Qock said:

It would make no sense whatsoever for the developers to make the game completely unappealing to "noobs" or casual players just because some neckbeard gets butthurt that he can't bully new players on PvP servers because they might pull out a M16 out of nowhere and fight back.

 

It does make no sense and I can assure you the developers are NOT developing the game to be balanced for PvP. That ship sailed years ago. Loot progression and the probabilities of what loot can be found at what stage has never had anything to do with a fear that a newly spawned character might get an M60 and then be OP against other characters who have been in the server longer. It purely has to do with them choosing loot progression and character progression as a means to draw out the longevity of the game and have it take hours and hours instead of minutes and minutes in order to get the best stuff. That is their philosophy, like it or not.

 

6 hours ago, Qock said:

Skill combined with street smarts and sprinkles of luck prevailing over time invested on collecting rocks makes for a way more appealing game experience for most. 

 

I guess....if... most people are, in fact, like you. Like you, I don't have a neckbeard and I also have a job and a family, some pets, and other things to do in my life... but unlike you, I like a slower progression.

 

Go figure.

[Sal]

19 hours ago, Qock said:

Listen, I came in here saying that I appreciate the way the game is enjoyable without too much of a time investment, and the reply I got was that I should play mobile games instead. That was a douche response and I replied to it accordingly and from the reactions, it honestly feels like the shoe fits pretty well. 

 

I see your new so let me give some tips.  Some people live and die by this game and take offense to anything remotely close to anything that may come off as negative towards TFP or the game. Even if that isn't your intentions. Unfortunately, some of those same people are also very sensitive as well and take any feedback extremely personal and it shows. Some of these same people are also so tied up that they also envision themselves being mods one day and so they try extra hard to kiss--you know what. 

 

 

[Grandpa Minion]

The game has really changed since  A16. I would agree for sure it has become to easy for players to stay in one spot and not have to travel to get what they need.

I firmly believe still to this day one of the biggest mistakes that was made was them removing calipers from the game. Back when calipers existed people had to travel to find one. Now the way the game is people  can pretty much set in any prefab and get everything they need. This really kills the "survivor" aspect of the game that i fill in love with years ago. Honestly, had i started playing 7d2d in the state it is in now - no way would have i ever playd it. 

 

 

[bdubyah]

23 hours ago, Sal said:

I see your new so let me give some tips.  Some people live and die by this game and take offense to anything remotely close to anything that may come off as negative towards TFP or the game. Even if that isn't your intentions. Unfortunately, some of those same people are also very sensitive as well and take any feedback extremely personal and it shows. Some of these same people are also so tied up that they also envision themselves being mods one day and so they try extra hard to kiss--you know what. 

 

 

No, a lot of us are just tired of all the simplification of the game and when people come in crying that things take too much time and they want it easier, you're gonna get a negative reaction. Especially when they immediately throw out the "live in your mom's basement" nonsense just because we want more to do than COD zombies has.

 

If your super important life doesn't give you enough time to make what you consider acceptable progress, then up the rates. That's the whole point of those options, to speed up progress for the impatient types.