Loot: The Inversion Principle

[PainStrumpet]

If I woke in the world of 7D2D and had to make my way, I'd perish. (I'm no good at any of the things required of the player character.) But pretending that I were more capable than I am, I'd suspect that I was being @%$#ed with on a pretty grand scale. Because the quality of loot in an apocalypse should be the inverse of what we find.

 

Finding crappy, handmade tools and no guns early on makes no sense: proper tools and weapons are *abundant* in the modern world. With the advent of the apocalypse, *new* tools and weapons cease being made. As things get used up, they vanish from the dying world. (I'm more willing to believe that armor found early on is garbage: the world has not needed quality armor til now, so it'll be a while before crafters are turning out decent stuff.)

 

Players should be able to find canned goods, bottled water, medicines, clothes, tools and weapons right away. (When they are also utterly lacking in the better survival skills.) As they struggle with the loss of decent supplies, as they run headlong into the need to repair and improvise, they should be learning new survival skills along the way.

 

The idea that I should find high quality stuff at roughly the same time as I've gained the skills to make great use of it seems deeply weird to me.

 

I've seen lots of complaints about the loot system in the forum, and I've seen modders take a stab at balance. The Romero mod adds in scrap tools, which makes more sense to me than the stone tools of vanilla 7D2D, but even that mod lacks the inversion principle.

 

Are there any mods taking this tack?

 

(I'm open to being talked around to a different way of thinking. There's clearly some world building in the background of the game that might render a lot of my thoughts invalid.)

[Roland]

My take is two-fold. First, we are not waking up on the first morning of the apocalypse. Years have definitely passed since the virus struck and the bombs came down. So the inversion principle could have already occurred as backstory to the day we call Day One. All the easily found high quality stuff has already been looted and we aren’t able to find the rare good stuff until our skill as scavengers progresses. 
 

There is no mini-game of us actually rooting around through cupboards filled with junk to find something worthwhile that others might have missed. That is all abstracted and generalized by the current system. It’s not that the cupboard only had can of Sham that didn’t go bad. It had a bunch of stuff and buried under it all in the back was that good can of food that is presented in the user interface. 

Secondly, for gameplay purposes it would be really stupid to have end game gear appear so early on. I know it would be stupid from first-hand experience during previous alpha versions where that was indeed the case. If you really want to try playing the game where any weapon could be found at the beginning just try some of the previous versions where that was possible. Maybe you’ll find it fun as everyone is different, but in my opinion, it significantly shortens the desire to play in that world and makes future looting less exciting. 
 

Granted, Alpha 19 turned out to be extremely linear but A20 fixes that with the pipe weapons and the new Lootstage that is modified by biome. 

 

[Crater Creator]

I second Roland's suggestion to try an earlier Alpha if you haven't - Alpha 16 is remembered particularly fondly by some.  Back then, there was a sense of decay which I think you're after.  Every time you repaired a tool, it got a little bit worse.  Eventually you would swing it one too many times and it would literally fall apart in your hands.  You could use the workbench (using a remarkably simple interface) to combine two of the same item, resulting in a new item of slightly higher quality.  And as I recall, if your skills advanced enough you could craft items of the highest quality, to make as good or better replacements for what you'd find in loot.

 

All of this added up to a world that felt like you were pushing back against a force of decay, working to not only reach the peak of success, but maintain that status.  In theory that feeling tied in nicely with the other forces of survival, and increasing hordes of zombies, that work against you.  In other words, your inversion principle does have a certain appeal where it comes to having a progressive difficulty curve over time.  And that's something that survival games struggle with: the player gets a handle on food, water, shelter, etc. and then asks, "Now what?"

 

Another underlying premise here is resource depletion.  You want to have the experience of running out of pre-apocalypse equipment and supplies.  One way to do that would be to invert the loot progression, but another way would be to play without loot respawn.  Then you would in fact run out of the good stuff unless you further extended yourself and moved on to another town, even if your level had no bearing on what loot you find.

[bdubyah]

Item degradation upon repairing really needs to come back. I know they always bring up mod slots as an issue, but that's a cop out. Just give a tooltip, attempt to move a mod off into the player's inventory, and if it's full then throw it out on the ground. Could even have a little sound so you know it fell out. Or just make so mods have to be removed to repair the item. A bit more annoying, but still worth it. It would add so much with just that change. I'd even be totally fine if combining items doesn't come back. Ever play Dying Light? I love their method of each tier having one(I think?) more repair as you find the higher tiers, but even the best stuff eventually wears out and is junk. It keeps you looking for replacements, makes you debate using certain weapons all the time instead of as SHTF backups. I love that.

I think part of the issue is the loot vs. craft balance. You spec into something so you'll be able to craft q5 things in that tree, but almost always find one before you can craft it, either by rng luck or not having the needed parts. Or get it from the OP traders, but I assume that is/will be balanced in a20.

Edited November 29, 2021 by bdubyah (see edit history)

[Telric]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

Item degradation upon repairing really needs to come back. I know they always bring up mod slots as an issue, but that's a cop out. Just give a tooltip, attempt to move a mod off into the player's inventory, and if it's full then throw it out on the ground. Could even have a little sound so you know it fell out. It would add so much with just that change. I'd even be totally fine if combining items doesn't come back. Ever play Dying Light? I love their method of each tier having one(I think?) more repair as you find the higher tiers, but even the best stuff eventually wears out and is junk. It keeps you looking for replacements, makes you debate using certain weapons all the time instead of as SHTF backups. I love that.

I think part of the issue is the loot vs. craft balance. You spec into something so you'll be able to craft q5 things in that tree, but almost always find one before you can craft it, either by rng luck or not having the needed parts. Or get it from the OP traders, but I assume that is/will be balanced in a20.

Not sure this is something that would interest you, but I've done playthroughs where I use what I find. No crafting, etc. That includes repairing. So if i find a half damaged axe, i can use it till it breaks. Then scrap or sell or whatever. It was very interesting at times. For example I wanted to break into a house... But I didnt have an axe on me because the one I found earlier broke... So I had to decide if I would break into the house using a club that has half health, or come back to this place later on when I have the right tool.

Personally, I think not being able to repair items would be the best... But of course that's just me and how I like to play. Repairing to me, even when it dropped the quality, seemed like a gimmick that greatly benefits the player. Having to go out looking for a specific item because yours is nearly broken and there is no possible way to repair it gave a greater sense of urgency. This ontop of playing with no respawn really makes you think about your decisions on what is the best use of the items you have on you at the moment...

Just thought I'd throw it out there incase you, or anyone else, wanted to change things up in your playstyles

[Maharin]

39 minutes ago, Telric said:

Personally, I think not being able to repair items would be the best...

 

This is another one of those things that would make a GREAT slider on the game options screen.  Call it repairability or some such and allow it to be off, full, or some fraction in between.  At 50% you'd have to repair an item twice to get it to full (using twice the repair components).  I could see 25% (x4), 33% (x3), and 50% (x2) being good options.

[bdubyah]

That's not a bad idea. I think some of the small changes they've made over time have added up to big changes that aren't so great. Vanilla needs more personality to it. They made it so things didn't lose quality, so those q6 things you got lucky and found in the first few days meant you were set. So now you only find stone crap for a week or so. And on and on.

 

And repair kits being simple to make and only needing one to fully repair anything just makes the issue worse. That's something I'm changing in my mod for a20. I've been watching an old series on YT from a12 days and I also have considered making it so all items will be destroyed if you let them degrade completely. Also makes me miss weapon parts again. Lol. And don't even get me started on placing rebar frames and pouring buckets on concrete into them... Which is funny, because I didn't even get the game till right after a15 came out, after watching this group play it on YT all the time. So some of these old mechanics I never even saw for myself, yet I miss them. Haha. Molds in the forge, the gore blocks, food smell, etc. All these things got removed and really took away a lot of the character of the game IMO. Doesn't feel nearly as much of a survival game to me now.

[Outlaw_187]

Very good points & ideas. I do always play with loot respawn off so that adds a little bit of urgency to hold onto stuff. 

I also liked the "lose quality on each repair" of older alphas. 

 

I guess a way we could do this ourselves would be to limit the amount of times we could repair an item. 

To keep track of this, Everytime an item is repaired, remove a mod. It "lost the ability to function with said mod."

 

Then upon last repair, you would simply be forced to scrap the item as it's now considered broken. 

 

I may try this......

[Boidster]

17 hours ago, bdubyah said:

Item degradation upon repairing really needs to come back. I know they always bring up mod slots as an issue

 

3 hours ago, Outlaw_187 said:

I guess a way we could do this ourselves would be to limit the amount of times we could repair an item. 

 

Along these lines, couldn't the repair process remove durability instead of quality? So it's still a Q6, but after repair it loses 25% of its durability. Eventually it becomes a one-hit wonder, breaking every time you use it.

 

I'm definitely in favor of category-specific repair kits. Maybe a gun kit (using any type of gun part, and usable on any type of gun, just to keep it straightforward), a tool kit, a vehicle kit, and an armor kit. I bet there's a mod that already does this; I'm not hip to all the cool mods...

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Boidster (see edit history)

[BFT2020]

8 minutes ago, Boidster said:

 

 

Along these lines, couldn't the repair process remove durability instead of quality? So it's still a Q6, but after repair it loses 25% of its durability. So eventually it becomes a one-hit wonder, breaking every time you use it.

 

I'm definitely in favor of category-specific repair kits. Maybe a gun kit (using any type of gun part, and usable on any type of gun, just to keep it straightforward), a tool kit, a vehicle kit, and an armor kit. I bet there's a mod that already does this; I'm not hip to all the cool mods...

 

 

 

 

[12pack]

37 minutes ago, Boidster said:

I'm definitely in favor of category-specific repair kits. Maybe a gun kit (using any type of gun part, and usable on any type of gun, just to keep it straightforward), a tool kit, a vehicle kit, and an armor kit. I bet there's a mod that already does this; I'm not hip to all the cool mods...

 

 this is definitely a thing that should be a thing...

i even did mod my own files so that at least the top tier items, i.e. the things that use PARTS to craft,

also now use those specific PARTS to repair, instead of the magic repair kits..

i like how it is working out

[walkingwounded]

On the surface I'd agree there is a place for such a loot tree. Presuming a narrative of 'it just happened'. Combined with a 'you learn how to find/identify stuff with experience'.

• Early: Plenty of pre-fall goods, improvised tools/weapons/armor (only preppers were ready, some turned, some were already cubical zeds)
  • lots of pre-fall stuff
  • some ammo (how do people store/hide/secure stuff?)
  • some 'basic' tools and parts (stuff you recognize from watching those home and garden shows from your couch)
• Mid: Easy food and meds are well looted by now, time to think long-term, this is the new world, some of the early preppers failed and left their good stuff behind
  • less pre-made food (incentive to grow your own)
  • less pre-fall goods (other looters have cleared out the low tier stuff; incentive to craft what your need; loot for high-tech stuff like bulbs and engines and real armor)
  • you know how to properly loot (better quality, higher tier; you have a plan and are ignoring the useless crap you hoarded early days [no TP? no problem])
• Late: Make and grow what you need, loot for the high-tech parts, you are in control now
  • your farm is up and running now, no need to loot for food
  • world is well looted by early survivors but you can mine and smelt ores and make most stuff now anyway
  • more aggressive animals arrive everywhere (with less people they get brave and move in)
  • the weak zeds are dying off, the strong ones remain
  • well hidden stuff can now be found (you know how to identify hidden stashes and things of value, it is the good stuff)

Essentially a world that has lots of some stuff (pre-fall common items) that drops off later and more pre-fall hard to make stuff later (presumably harder to access or better hidden or you did not recognize its value early on). Some merit, but I can see how this would be a challenge to implement without artificial zones/barriers.

 

I understand 7dtd's narrative will be (is?) "decades after the incident and fall". Hence why Duke is nominally in charge and dumped you on the road one day after emptying your pockets (warlord perhaps?), and why you don't know how to make coffee. Think Mad Max type world. Really, Duke should be something you interact with and work your way up to 'for some reason' (maybe you felt betrayed and vowed to take over?; maybe the hordes are being created by Duke?).

 

I'm okay with the current system, but some of the crafting recipes are a bit off and could be reworked (not made more difficult, just more logical and varied). Different repair kits for vehicles/weapons/armor (as mentioned already) requiring different recipes for a start (eg: oil+cloth+[item related parts]+[logical resource]).

[BFT2020]

On 11/28/2021 at 9:49 PM, Telric said:

Personally, I think not being able to repair items would be the best... But of course that's just me and how I like to play. Repairing to me, even when it dropped the quality, seemed like a gimmick that greatly benefits the player. Having to go out looking for a specific item because yours is nearly broken and there is no possible way to repair it gave a greater sense of urgency. This ontop of playing with no respawn really makes you think about your decisions on what is the best use of the items you have on you at the moment...

 

I am stealing this idea for my modlet  😉

 

Though based on the changes I am making, I think it has gone from a simple modlet to an overhaul mod:

• Significant changes to traders
• Significant changes to looting and crafting
• Significant changes to schematics / perk books

[doughphunghus]

For repairing: I too believe that the vanilla “repair kit” is a way OP. I’ve been playing some mods for different repair kits for different things and it feels better, but it’s not perfect. I like the idea of “once it’s used up, it’s used up” except maybe for simple things like stone/early tools as you build them from nature items. (Thinking of clubs and bows/stone axe).  I get why they do it (people want an easier game generally) but I do with there were some tiering of repair kits in vanilla if it’s like a simple iron repair, steel repair, (or something) and they’re way too easy to make a lot of them currently. Or maybe a “tier 1” repair kit requiring 5 basic items, then a “tier 2” that takes a tier 1 plus 4 more items, etc. really have to work up to repair a vehicle or auger or high level item.

 

alternatively: if there were a way to “randomly scrap” an item for parts that might be neat. Using an iron axe: the quality goes to 0. You scrap and have a chance to get the ax head or handle or just wood/iron. I think it would feel better but require a lot more new items, and a random scrapper… I guess you could scrap to a “pile of parts” that was a loot container and then (when placed) it could choose parts from a loot group when opened, then self destruct. This seems… cumbersome.

[zztong]

On 11/28/2021 at 2:35 PM, Roland said:

Years have definitely passed since the virus struck and the bombs came down.

 

Oh, interesting. I never would have guessed years. I guess that explains a number of things about the vanilla POIs and the established traders.

 

I was thinking either days or months. I guess it all depends on what you pick as a reference. The game coughs up usable gasoline via salvage, which doesn't have a shelf life measured in years unless it was all stabilized. The game also still has a working electrical grid (because POIs have lights) which I think would collapse in a matter of days unless zombies have an interest in keeping it fueled, managed, and repaired.

Edited November 30, 2021 by zztong (see edit history)

[Roland]

Does anyone get excited when they find the diamond edge mod that adds significant durability to your item? Why would you when repairing back to full utility is so simple?

 

Having permanent degradation would make mods that improve durability truly worthwhile

5 minutes ago, zztong said:

 

Oh, interesting. I never would have guessed years. I guess that explains a number of things about the vanilla POIs and the established traders.

 

I was thinking either days or months. I guess it all depends on what you pick as a reference. The game coughs up usable gasoline via salvage, which doesn't have a shelf life measured in years unless it was all stabilized. The game also still has a working electrical grid (because POIs have lights) which I think would collapse in a matter of days unless zombies have an interest in keeping it fueled, managed, and repaired.

 

Well the exact timetable hasn't be revealed and there are plenty of inconsistencies to be found but for sure our day 1 is not THE DAY ONE. In my imagination I think there were two falls. The initial fall when the bombs fell and then some initial return of civilization followed by the Duke's takeover. I think businesses like Poopy Pants Daycare were probably post apocalypse businesses that sprang up but then the Duke's takeover plunged the area into a second downfall. 

 

None of that is cannon but it helps me explain the mockery of pre-apocalypse businesses and the hand crafted items in crates if there was a short period of re-emergence and then a second fall.

[zztong]

One option towards realism (just spitballing here) would be to replace gasoline with alcohol and then remove gasoline from salvage. Leave alcohol only to be distilled by players or bought from traders. You could even have different levels of fuel to express different qualities of production, age, methanol vs ethanol, etc. It might even give folks a reason to buy into farming on a larger scale and a greater use for Super Corn.

Edited November 30, 2021 by zztong (see edit history)

[doughphunghus]

56 minutes ago, zztong said:

One option towards realism (just spitballing here) would be to replace gasoline with alcohol and then remove gasoline from salvage. Leave alcohol only to be distilled by players or bought from traders. You could even have different levels of fuel to express different qualities of production, age, methanol vs ethanol, etc. It might even give folks a reason to buy into farming on a larger scale and a greater use for Super Corn.

There used to be “biofuel” or something and it was removed, I don’t know why.

also: I would like to see crafting “wood gas” or something to power things if removing gasoline was going to happen.  Or maybe gasoline “processing” to remove water as a way to utilize the chem station. Making gasoline directly from raw shale… errrrr a bit weird feeling. 
 

something like “Chem station 2” that used electricity to do stuff like process things to gasoline/alcohol I think would be cool, as something to use electricity on and maybe as a “great use for solar cells” to power it. Also just rambling . The chem station does look a bit like a still, so an electric one would be electrolysis or something. 

 

Edited November 30, 2021 by doughphunghus (see edit history)

[Crater Creator]

9 hours ago, BFT2020 said:

 

I am stealing this idea for my modlet  😉

 

Though based on the changes I am making, I think it has gone from a simple modlet to an overhaul mod:

• Significant changes to traders
• Significant changes to looting and crafting
• Significant changes to schematics / perk books

 

If you want another idea to steal  ... we have all these parts now.  I think it would make sense to repair your item with a part for that item.  A broken shotgun is repaired with one unit of shotgun parts.  A broken auger is repaired with one unit of steel tool parts, etc.  This makes sense, doesn't require new art or the bloat of new items, and gives you something to do with e.g. all those extraneous shotgun parts you continue to accumulate once you have a top tier shotgun.

[12pack]

46 minutes ago, Crater Creator said:

 

If you want another idea to steal  ... we have all these parts now.  I think it would make sense to repair your item with a part for that item.  A broken shotgun is repaired with one unit of shotgun parts.  A broken auger is repaired with one unit of steel tool parts, etc.  This makes sense, doesn't require new art or the bloat of new items, and gives you something to do with e.g. all those extraneous shotgun parts you continue to accumulate once you have a top tier shotgun.

That's what I did with mine.. but, instead of just one part to repair the items,

I set it so that one part would repair 100 durability points..

e.g. a shotgun with 546 durability would use 6 parts to repair fully from 0