Is Stone Axe OP?

[bachgaman]

Hi

I have long wanted to raise this topic, I want to ask the players, at what moment do you switch a stone axe to a pickaxe?

Now I started a new game on Vanila, day 8, game stage 34.

I've already found some level 6 stone axes, and recently got two level 2 and 3 iron pickaxes.

 

I decided to compare them in digging ores and felling trees and this is what happened.

	Block dmg	Stamina/attack	Attack/min		Block dmg/min	Stamina/min
Stone Axe tier6 (4 mods)	43	7 (ergonomic grip)	105		4515	420
Iron Pickaxe tier3 (2 mods)	47	16 (ergonomic grip)	62		2914	960

Did I count correctly? Thus, we see that a stone ax is almost 2 times better than an iron pickaxe (without mods effect) in damage/min and more then twice in stamina consumption. That is, it is incredibly better than an iron pickaxe. Should it be so? Is this the correct design? And there are a lot of similar cases, not only with a stone ax, this is just one example.

P.S. Among other things, the stone ax is more versatile and easy to repair.

Edited November 14, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[JamesKirk]

To be honest, I never get rid of my stone axe, because it's the 'Swiss army knife' in this game, capable of all actions.

We use the stone axe for breaking safes for the same reason you said. Low stamina cost and high damage/time

Edited November 14, 2021 by JamesKirk (see edit history)

[n2n1]

@bachgaman

 this is normal. You just take this game balance too seriously. This story is not about this game.

 

now Roland, as the defender of everything rational, will explain to you clearly why you were wrong.

Edited November 14, 2021 by n2n1 (see edit history)

[theFlu]

I think you're missing a "hidden" damage modifier for iron type blocks, I think it was 50% one way or the other (reduction in stone axe vs iron). But tbh, I'm not entirely sure if it's in the game anymore. Other than that, you're probably quite close with those numbers.

 

The balance is off enough that I tend to skip tier two tools (iron -) in most specs; sometimes with a str build they're an option for a while - once you can make a Q5 and have no stamina issues using them due to S.Rex.

 

Dunno if they've done anything for the balance for A20 (and I'd rather find out while playing... )

[elektrohund]

Tier + mod slot damage bonus results in some whacky damage increases. I think this could be best solved by delaying the apearance of high tier stone tools to a later game stage. At the same time, a fully kitted tier 6 stone tool is a pretty silly concept to begin with...

Edited November 14, 2021 by elektrohund (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

4 hours ago, JamesKirk said:

To be honest, I never get rid of my stone axe, because it's the 'Swiss army knife' in this game, capable of all actions.

We use the stone axe for breaking safes for the same reason you said. Low stamina cost and high damage/time

Yes, but it's almost absurd

2 hours ago, n2n1 said:

@bachgaman

 this is normal. You just take this game balance too seriously. This story is not about this game.

 

now Roland, as the defender of everything rational, will explain to you clearly why you were wrong.

 

If everyone is apathetic, then perhaps the devs will never find out about many problems like this. Based on the fact that they've been doing a 1.5 year patch but don't fix things like this, I can conclude that they probably don't know about it or don't think it's a problem. I informed them and explained why, in my opinion, this should be considered a problem. Where am I wrong?

1 hour ago, theFlu said:

I think you're missing a "hidden" damage modifier for iron type blocks, I think it was 50% one way or the other (reduction in stone axe vs iron). But tbh, I'm not entirely sure if it's in the game anymore. Other than that, you're probably quite close with those numbers.

Yes, I thought about it, but I was not sure, so I asked if I counted correctly. But even if we take into view that the pickaxe has + 50% damage, and the ax does not, the ax still wins due to the x2 lower consumption of stamina

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

The balance is off enough that I tend to skip tier two tools (iron -) in most specs; sometimes with a str build they're an option for a while - once you can make a Q5 and have no stamina issues using them due to S.Rex.

Yes, I'm always missing low level tier 2 tools and middle tiers armor too. I usually wear level 6 light armor with a full set of mods until the very end of the game, until I get a full set of level 6 steel armor with Customized Fittings and a penalty reduction perk. Because the bonuses of the scrap armor never cover their penalties. In addition, more mods on light armor provide a significant advantage and movement speed is too important.

 

Although if you play maxing strength, you can effectively wield a high-level iron pickaxe using some drinks due to the fact that you do not take breaks to restore stamina

2 hours ago, theFlu said:

Dunno if they've done anything for the balance for A20 (and I'd rather find out while playing... )

Me too, I hope they did

1 hour ago, elektrohund said:

Tier + mod slot damage bonus results in some whacky damage increases. I think this could be best solved by delaying the apearance of high tier stone tools to a later game stage. At the same time, a fully kitted tier 6 stone tool is a pretty silly concept to begin with...

It may be worth limiting the number of mods for a stone tool, or making the mod bonus not absolute, but relative. Because now every mod really gives a lot. Or forbid a stone tool to deal damage to iron blocks, reduce damage to trees. Or increase the stamina cost of stone tools, because they should not be lighter than metal ones (due to the volume of material). Or somehow combine it all. Do not know. The level 6 stone shovel is also incredibly effective.

[n2n1]

@bachgaman

the fact is that the game is being made for a very wide audience, for whom these things are not important. You and i probably don't relate to it .

In addition, everything will change many times. Right now - they just don't pay much attention to it.

[BFT2020]

It’s why I mod out the ability of tier0 tools / weapons of having mod slots

[bachgaman]

27 minutes ago, n2n1 said:

@bachgaman

the fact is that the game is being made for a very wide audience, for whom these things are not important. You and i probably don't relate to it .

In addition, everything will change many times. Right now - they just don't pay much attention to it.

Doesn't the phrase "very wide audience" mean that it includes those who care about such phenomena? I understand for whom they create flying AI robots and Twitch integration, but still

3 minutes ago, BFT2020 said:

It’s why I mod out the ability of tier0 tools / weapons of having mod slots

Good job, man, corrected in xml files? No sarcasm🙂

[Roland]

8 hours ago, n2n1 said:

@bachgaman

 this is normal. You just take this game balance too seriously. This story is not about this game.

 

now Roland, as the defender of everything rational, will explain to you clearly why you were wrong.

 

I don't think that Bach is usually wrong about what he wants. I often disagree with what he designates as a necessary core feature or how critical a needed change is so that the devs should prioritize it now.  In this case, I would like to see a change in primitive tools and weapons so that they are not modifiable and also not repairable. I won't defend the fact that the stone axe is often better than the iron axe or pick that you first find. I'd like to see that changed as well.

 

Another difference is that Bach wants these changes made yesterday while I'm more patient and willing to use mods to approximate those changes or limit myself to simulate the changes while I wait for the devs to get to it.

 

So....I guess I explained clearly why YOU were wrong. Maybe there is something wrong with me...

[bdubyah]

Tool tier balance definitely needs some TLC. I just don't think a stone axe should ever outdo an iron or steel pickaxe, especially on metal or stone. As far as wood, meh. But stone axes should be almost useless against safes, boulders, concrete blocks, etc.

 

And I know it's been a core part for a while but it's kind of odd the stone axe has kept its upgrade ability after all the other changes. I liked when the wrench was capable of it as well. Would already have a wrench anyways, so it worked fine and was convenient. But I usually keep a stone axe on me a lot even after having a much better iron/steel pick because I might need to do some quick repairs. Only really use a nailgun for horde base stuff.

[n2n1]

2 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I don't think that Bach is usually wrong about what he wants. I often disagree with what he designates as a necessary core feature or how critical a needed change is so that the devs should prioritize it now.  In this case, I would like to see a change in primitive tools and weapons so that they are not modifiable and also not repairable. I won't defend the fact that the stone axe is often better than the iron axe or pick that you first find. I'd like to see that changed as well.

 

Another difference is that Bach wants these changes made yesterday while I'm more patient and willing to use mods to approximate those changes or limit myself to simulate the changes while I wait for the devs to get to it.

 

So....I guess I explained clearly why YOU were wrong. Maybe there is something wrong with me...

You're all right.

Yes, of course -  I understand what you're saying about bachgaman. But I don't see anything in your words that refutes what I said.

You just baselessly said that you proved SOMETHING to me - very often in your countries this is practiced as the main argument. 

Therefore, everything is fine with you

Edited November 15, 2021 by n2n1 (see edit history)

[JamesKirk]

1 hour ago, bdubyah said:

Tool tier balance definitely needs some TLC. I just don't think a stone axe should ever outdo an iron or steel pickaxe, especially on metal or stone. As far as wood, meh. But stone axes should be almost useless against safes, boulders, concrete blocks, etc.

 

And I know it's been a core part for a while but it's kind of odd the stone axe has kept its upgrade ability after all the other changes. I liked when the wrench was capable of it as well. Would already have a wrench anyways, so it worked fine and was convenient. But I usually keep a stone axe on me a lot even after having a much better iron/steel pick because I might need to do some quick repairs. Only really use a nailgun for horde base stuff.

You're completely right, a stone axe would never exceed more sophisticated tools made of metal. In real life...

In this game it should not exceed them.

At least mods inserted to stone tools should be restricted to shaft mods as e.g. ergonomic grip. Nothing else.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by JamesKirk
added quote (see edit history)

[bachgaman]

 

3 hours ago, JamesKirk said:

You're completely right, a stone axe would never exceed more sophisticated tools made of metal. In real life...

In this game it should not exceed them.

At least mods inserted to stone tools should be restricted to shaft mods as e.g. ergonomic grip. Nothing else.

 

Yeah, in the screenshot you can see the stone ax with modification "hardened steel" (not sure what exactly is the case in the English version) 😂

But this I would refer to trifles.

Stone ax that breaks steel blocks is nonsense, but zombies, according to this logic, would also not be able to break steel and stone or concrete blocks. We still need to make assumptions.

6 hours ago, Roland said:

 

I don't think that Bach is usually wrong about what he wants. I often disagree with what he designates as a necessary core feature or how critical a needed change is so that the devs should prioritize it now.  In this case, I would like to see a change in primitive tools and weapons so that they are not modifiable and also not repairable. I won't defend the fact that the stone axe is often better than the iron axe or pick that you first find. I'd like to see that changed as well.

 

Another difference is that Bach wants these changes made yesterday while I'm more patient and willing to use mods to approximate those changes or limit myself to simulate the changes while I wait for the devs to get to it.

 

So....I guess I explained clearly why YOU were wrong. Maybe there is something wrong with me...

Thank's man

[BFT2020]

11 hours ago, bachgaman said:

Good job, man, corrected in xml files? No sarcasm🙂

Yes I did  🙂

 

Previously I would just show some self-restraint on using mods in them, but I found I would cheat here and there to reduce my stuff in inventory.  So for preparation of Alpha 20, I will be modding out mod slots for Tier0 weapons, armor, and tools.

 

Doing the same thing with starter quests and bringing back Q6 crafting.  Alpha 20 will probably be slightly modified at first in my gameplays and then I will probably introduce my trader / loot overhaul changes I been working on.

[JCrook1028]

I switch tiers when the higher tier makes an improvement, not before. I never go the entire game with stone tools tho, that's just be dumb. Iron takes a few mod slots til it passes stone for one reason, stone high quality is easy to find. Notice in your comparison you're using a lvl 6 stone vs a level 3 iron. Not sure why you wouldn't compare with equal mod slots. The mod slots are what really make the difference.

[Roland]

1 minute ago, JCrook1028 said:

I switch tiers when the higher tier makes an improvement, not before. I never go the entire game with stone tools tho, that's just be dumb. Iron takes a few mod slots til it passes stone for one reason, stone high quality is easy to find. Notice in your comparison you're using a lvl 6 stone vs a level 3 iron. Not sure why you wouldn't compare with equal mod slots. The mod slots are what really make the difference.

 

I think the problem lies in the fact that you start finding iron tools at lower tiers for quite awhile before you get to the top tiers. So for quite awhile you are finding loot that should feel exciting because it should be a higher level of tool but it turns out to not be and there is no reason to switch from what you already have. If primitive tools had no mod slots then a T6 stone axe and a T1 or T2 iron pick might be more comparable and you might decide to change if you had a mod to add to the iron tool. And yellow with two mod slots would probably definitely be better.

[Roland]

10 hours ago, n2n1 said:

But I don't see anything in your words that refutes what I said.

You just baselessly said that you proved SOMETHING to me

 

I refuted your claim that I would disagree with bach and defend the status quo. Here is the evidence that shows it wasn't baseless.

 

21 hours ago, n2n1 said:

now Roland, as the defender of everything rational, will explain to you clearly why you were wrong.

 

12 hours ago, Roland said:

I don't think that Bach is usually wrong about what he wants...I won't defend the fact that the stone axe is often better than the iron axe or pick that you first find. I'd like to see that changed as well.

 

I was half joking around when I said I proved you wrong and that there was something wrong with me since I did prove you wrong but there's definitely nothing wrong with me...

[JCrook1028]

12 minutes ago, Roland said:

 

I think the problem lies in the fact that you start finding iron tools at lower tiers for quite awhile before you get to the top tiers. So for quite awhile you are finding loot that should feel exciting because it should be a higher level of tool but it turns out to not be and there is no reason to switch from what you already have. If primitive tools had no mod slots then a T6 stone axe and a T1 or T2 iron pick might be more comparable and you might decide to change if you had a mod to add to the iron tool. And yellow with two mod slots would probably definitely be better.

True but doesn't tell the whole story. When I first start finding iron tools the stamina use is too high so those early finds the level (and so the mod slot number) really isn't the issue.

[hiemfire]

7 minutes ago, Roland said:

If primitive tools had no mod slots then a T6 stone axe and a T1 or T2 iron pick might be more comparable and you might decide to change if you had a mod to add to the iron tool. And yellow with two mod slots would probably definitely be better.

 

That might even things out a bit, but the jump in stamina use per swing and the repair expense difference are really big stumbling blocks for swapping over from stone to iron tools in general. Not just with the axe.

 

Maybe they could do what they did with the nailgun and remove the tiering of the stone axe and shovel on top of the suggested removal of mod slots. Having their stats set to the current tier 3 for the stone axe and shovel would leave them useful early game and make a modable iron equivalent more attractive when those start showing up.

[Roland]

One of the things I like about 7 Days to Die is that weapons or tools are never grayed out or unequipable just because you aren't at the level you should use them or because they are outside your class. I wish other RPGs would allow me to use anything I want even if disadvantaged. So, yes, there is a big stamina issue when switching over to an iron tool but I see that as okay since I can drink some coffee or focus my perks in stamina mitigation if I choose to do so (or wear the right clothing in A21) in order to overcome the stamina issue earlier than I might normally be able to. And thank goodness I'm not denied using whatever I want just because my level is lower than it would be recommended for that tool.

 

But there is no way to overcome the fact that my fully modded T6 stone axe is going to be more damaging than my T2 iron pickaxe no matter how many steroids I take and blackstraps I slam.

Edited November 15, 2021 by Roland (see edit history)

[warmer]

Something to note, you are going to attract more zombies using a stone ax to open a safe vs a pick ax due to how many loud attacks on metal you are causing. A faster attack also means drawing in zeds quicker because your sneak meter never falls between attacks. If you don't care about being stealthy, that isn't a problem. Once I can craft picks I never open any locked container with a weapon. Way too loud.

[Darthjake]

I usually bypass safes until I have lockpicks or iron tools, because of yeah, more damage, and I don't feel bad about hitting it once in a while.

[bachgaman]

3 hours ago, JCrook1028 said:

I switch tiers when the higher tier makes an improvement, not before. I never go the entire game with stone tools tho, that's just be dumb. Iron takes a few mod slots til it passes stone for one reason, stone high quality is easy to find. Notice in your comparison you're using a lvl 6 stone vs a level 3 iron. Not sure why you wouldn't compare with equal mod slots. The mod slots are what really make the difference.

 

I was waiting for such an answer and I'm not surprised that exactly you wrote it. In fact, I gave the iron pick a head start in this comparison, because I really had to compare a level 6 stone ax and a level 1 or 2 iron pickaxe, not 3. In the first post I wrote a gamestage. Think why I did it.

 

Edited November 15, 2021 by bachgaman (see edit history)

[n2n1]

9 hours ago, Roland said:

I was half joking around when I said I proved you wrong and that there was something wrong with me since I did prove you wrong but there's definitely nothing wrong with me...

Wow, a multi-passer?

 

 

By the way, are you going to repeat YouTube's policy for dislikes taboo? 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 16, 2021 by n2n1 (see edit history)