Randomized stats and different tiers

[Kosmic Kerman]

Except it can. Have you not been keeping up?

 

You can find a Q1 that has 4 mod slots?

[Kalen]

Except it can. Have you not been keeping up?

 

The difference between 0 mod slots and 4 is pretty substantial (QL1 vs QL6). I can't imagine the stats would ever vary enough to offset that difference. I could easily see an item 1 QL lower being better, but not 5 QL lower.

[Sjustus548]

To OP:

There is no steel armor that is worse than an iron armor

 

I have a T4 Iron Chest piece with 13 Armor and a T3 Steel Chest piece with 11 Armor. Sounds like it is worse to me lol

[Guest]

That is a really deceptive edit of what Gazz said. You can disagree with what he said all you want but to edit his reply to make it seem like he said something else is incredibly problematic.

 

I know, I can't believe I've done this. Nearly got away with it too, if it weren't for that meddling mod. Guess my plan's ruined now?

[Laz Man]

I have a T4 Iron Chest piece with 13 Armor and a T3 Steel Chest piece with 11 Armor. Sounds like it is worse to me lol

 

I dunno, depends what your standards are. For example, is +2 Armor really > then all other stats?

 

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What may help get the devs attention is folks posting comparison pictures of items players are seeing. Otherwise, all of these concerns are just hypothetical issues which honestly wont care much weight.

[Kalen]

I dunno, depends what your standards are. For example, is +2 Armor really > then all other stats?

 

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What may help get the devs attention is folks posting comparison pictures of items players are seeing. Otherwise, all of these concerns are just hypothetical issues which honestly wont care much weight.

 

What other stats? From what I can see in the XML, there is virtually no difference between Iron and Steel armor other than potential armor value (10-14 for iron, 11-16 for steel) and durability (400-800 for iron and 500-1000 for steel).

 

I may be reading it wrong or missing something, but thats what I'm seeing.

 

edit:

actually, steel has a slightly better chance of resisting bleeding and infection.

[Laz Man]

What other stats? From what I can see in the XML, there is virtually no difference between Iron and Steel armor other than potential armor value (10-14 for iron, 11-16 for steel) and durability (400-800 for iron and 500-1000 for steel).

 

I may be reading it wrong or missing something, but thats what I'm seeing.

 

Okay, so then is +2 AR > +200 durability? Probably subjective on who you ask. If one is more overwhelmingly more appealing then the other, perhaps alittle balancing is needed.

 

Edit: +2 > +200 durability and higher resistance to bleed/infection?

[Kalen]

Okay, so then is +2 AR > +200 durability? Probably subjective on who you ask. If one is more overwhelmingly more appealing then the other, perhaps alittle balancing is needed.

 

Edit: +2 > +200 durability and higher resistance to bleed/infection?

 

Agreed... I'm ok with RNG rarely giving you a QL4 item thats better than a QL5 item. But, I'd want a T3 item to always be superior to a T2 item.

[Laz Man]

Agreed... I'm ok with RNG rarely giving you a QL4 item thats better than a QL5 item. But, I'd want a T3 item to always be superior to a T2 item.

 

Out of curiosity, why are you okay with q4>q5 sometimes but not q2>q3 sometimes?

[AtomicUs5000]

High tier stone axes are hilarious. Just had to get that out.

[Kalen]

Out of curiosity, why are you okay with q4>q5 sometimes but not q2>q3 sometimes?

 

Sorry, I wasn't clear I'm ok with a lower quality item rarely being better than a higher quality.... so a green item being better than a blue item.

 

I am not ok with a tier 2 item being better than a tier 3 item... so I don't want an iron pick being better than a steel pick.

[Limdood]

Sorry, I wasn't clear I'm ok with a lower quality item rarely being better than a higher quality.... so a green item being better than a blue item.

 

I am not ok with a tier 2 item being better than a tier 3 item... so I don't want a steel pick being better than an iron pick.

 

pretty sure you meant you don't want an iron pick being better than a steel pick...

 

And I completely agree.

 

The overlap is too big. Iron armor that is better than steel is a problem. Iron anything that is better than steel is a problem. The stat range for those shouldn't be 10-14 and 11-16...it should be 10-13 and 13-16...give me an extreme outside chance of getting the same stat...but the devs have made it clear - you work your butt off to get Tier 3 gear - all the design changes for A18 have pushed that concept. T3 gear is loot recipe only and requires parts to craft. If the concept is going to be "Tier 3 gear requires serious effort" then don't slap players in the face by making it even possible for us to put in that actual effort and end up with an item WEAKER in any way than a Tier 2 item.

[Kalen]

pretty sure you meant you don't want an iron pick being better than a steel pick...

 

And I completely agree.

 

The overlap is too big. Iron armor that is better than steel is a problem. Iron anything that is better than steel is a problem. The stat range for those shouldn't be 10-14 and 11-16...it should be 10-13 and 13-16...give me an extreme outside chance of getting the same stat...but the devs have made it clear - you work your butt off to get Tier 3 gear - all the design changes for A18 have pushed that concept. T3 gear is loot recipe only and requires parts to craft. If the concept is going to be "Tier 3 gear requires serious effort" then don't slap players in the face by making it even possible for us to put in that actual effort and end up with an item WEAKER in any way than a Tier 2 item.

 

LOL, yeah.... typo. Thanks

[Sjustus548]

The overlap is too big. Iron armor that is better than steel is a problem. Iron anything that is better than steel is a problem. The stat range for those shouldn't be 10-14 and 11-16...it should be 10-13 and 13-16...give me an extreme outside chance of getting the same stat...but the devs have made it clear - you work your butt off to get Tier 3 gear - all the design changes for A18 have pushed that concept. T3 gear is loot recipe only and requires parts to craft. If the concept is going to be "Tier 3 gear requires serious effort" then don't slap players in the face by making it even possible for us to put in that actual effort and end up with an item WEAKER in any way than a Tier 2 item.

 

I finished a tier 5 trader quest and my reward was a pair of Q6 Steel boots. I thought it would be an amazing upgrade to the Tier 4 iron boots I was wearing. The Steel boots provided less armor than the iron boots did. It really makes the so called "Legendary" quality and steel quality both feel like crap.

[Laz Man]

pretty sure you meant you don't want an iron pick being better than a steel pick...

 

And I completely agree.

 

The overlap is too big. Iron armor that is better than steel is a problem. Iron anything that is better than steel is a problem. The stat range for those shouldn't be 10-14 and 11-16...it should be 10-13 and 13-16...give me an extreme outside chance of getting the same stat...but the devs have made it clear - you work your butt off to get Tier 3 gear - all the design changes for A18 have pushed that concept. T3 gear is loot recipe only and requires parts to craft. If the concept is going to be "Tier 3 gear requires serious effort" then don't slap players in the face by making it even possible for us to put in that actual effort and end up with an item WEAKER in any way than a Tier 2 item.

 

Hes trying to confuse us further lol...

 

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I finished a tier 5 trader quest and my reward was a pair of Q6 Steel boots. I thought it would be an amazing upgrade to the Tier 4 iron boots I was wearing. The Steel boots provided less armor than the iron boots did. It really makes the so called "Legendary" quality and steel quality both feel like crap.

 

What was the armor difference? Because honest a couple AR difference is not > than better resistances and more mod slots....

 

Keep in mine mods add additional bonuses as well. For weapons, they also increase damage with each mod added.

[theFlu]

Because honest a couple AR difference is not > than better resistances and more mod slots....

A couple AR at the high end of armor is .. times five for all slots, 10 AR. The difference between 60% and 70% reductions, is actually 25% in terms of actual damage taken. The higher the armor, the more signifant each point becomes.

[Laz Man]

A couple AR at the high end of armor is .. times five for all slots, 10 AR. The difference between 60% and 70% reductions, is actually 25% in terms of actual damage taken. The higher the armor, the more signifant each point becomes.

 

I think armor mods increase AR as well, so technically a t6 armor should potentially have more AR when slotted....will check xmls later.

[Limdood]

 

What was the armor difference? Because honest a couple AR difference is not > than better resistances and more mod slots....

 

Keep in mine mods add additional bonuses as well. For weapons, they also increase damage with each mod added.

 

and what if they were the same quality? same mod slots. Why does it make ANY sense that a tier 3 item, requiring steel or military fibers and non-craftable parts is worse in ANY way to a tier 2, mass-producable item?

 

There is NOTHING gained by pushing us to jump through hoop after hoop for the top TIER of item, only for the chance that it is WORSE than the tier below (not quality 1-6....tier 1,2,3, like cloth, leather, military for armors). Nevermind the fact that they CAN be better, the point is that GETTING a worse one, no matter how likely or not that it is to happen, undermines the entire concept and push for top tier items to be so hard to obtain. Arguably, the exact same point can be made for Q6 gear. Finally getting a Q6 item, only to have it be worse than the Q4 or 5 you're already using undermines the entire push to make those items so hard to obtain.

[Synvastian]

I personally think, that every tier should have overlap, but only a little, Quality overlap is fine right now (it make sense a tiny bit, at least from a RP standpoint of possible flaws/damage that isn't fixable)

 

using light armors as an example (numbers are not from the game but a basic number set I hope makes sense)

 

Padded-Cloth chest Q1-6 AR range of 6-9

 

Leather Chest Q1-6 AR range of 9-12

 

Military jacket Q1-6 AR range of 12-15

 

Each one has a in tier range of exactly 3 between the weakest and the strongest, yet each tier has the potential to be the weakest of its tier level (A Q6 Military jacket could be AR 12, which is the same as your God rolled Q3 Leather chest's AR12)

 

None of this is done with proper in-game math or xml files (I don't know how to view those honestly, so everything is self made examples)

[Jugginator]

I have to say pictures or it didn't happen with a q6 armor piece being worse than a q4. And you're missing mod slots, which add things like armor, mobility, noise reduction, stamina reduction, extra storage space, heat/cold reductions, etc.

[Laz Man]

I like the idea of having random stats. It makes it worth it to keep crafting/looking for gear even when you find Q6 stuff. The problem I'm having is very bad luck when it comes to armor. I'm going with a heavy armor build currently. I'm wearing between Q3 and Q4 Iron Armor and can't find anything better. I crafted a set of Q5 Iron Armor and it was all worse. I'm finding Steel Armor while looting and from the trader but it is still worse. I understand why the different levels of Iron Armor would be better or worse but I would think that steel armor would automatically be better. Doesn't seem like much of a reason to get steel armor over iron armor if it will be the same armor rating. I could be mistaken and maybe I'm just having a bad set of armors to compare. Is anyone else having the same or better luck than I am currently?

 

Okay here is data from the XMLs for comparison sake:

 

Iron Helmet Armor:

<item name="armorIronHelmet">
<property name="Extends" value="armorIronMaster" param1="CustomIcon"/>
<property name="Tags" value="head,armor,armorHead,heavyArmor,heavyArmorPenalty,canHaveCosmetic,heavyArmorDeg"/>
<property name="EquipSlot" value="Head"/>
<effect_group>
	<passive_effect name="ModSlots" operation="base_set" value="1,1,2,2,3,4" tier="1,2,3,4,5,6"/>
	<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="base_add" value="300" tags="EconomicValue"/>
	<passive_effect name="ElementalDamageResist" operation="base_add" value="5" tags="toxic"/>
	<passive_effect name="PhysicalDamageResist" operation="base_add" value="10.3,14"/>
	<passive_effect name="ElementalDamageResist" operation="base_add" value="-1" tags="head,heat,electrical"/>
	<passive_effect name="DegradationMax" operation="base_set" value="400,800" tier="1,6"/>
	<passive_effect name="DegradationPerUse" operation="base_set" value="1"/>

	<passive_effect name="Mobility" operation="perc_add" value="-.06"/>
	<passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="perc_add" value="-.045" tags="walking"/>
	<passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="perc_add" value="-.09" tags="running"/>
	<display_value name="dStaminaChangeOT" value="-.9"/>
	<passive_effect name="NoiseMultiplier" operation="perc_add" value=".2"/><display_value name="dNoiseMultiplier" value=".2"/>
	<passive_effect name="BuffResistance" operation="base_add" value=".12,.148" tags="buffInfectionCatch,buffInjuryBleeding,buffInjuryStunned01"/><passive_effect name="BuffResistance" operation="base_add" value=".03" tags="buffInfectionCatch"/><passive_effect name="BuffResistance" operation="base_add" value=".01" tags="buffInjuryBleeding"/>
</effect_group>

 

Steel Helmet Armor:

<item name="armorSteelHelmet">
<property name="Extends" value="armorSteelMaster" param1="CustomIcon"/>
<property name="Tags" value="head,armor,armorHead,heavyArmor,heavyArmorPenalty,canHaveCosmetic,heavyArmorDeg"/>
<property name="EquipSlot" value="Head"/>
<effect_group>
	<passive_effect name="ModSlots" operation="base_set" value="1,1,2,2,3,4" tier="1,2,3,4,5,6"/>
	<passive_effect name="ModPowerBonus" operation="base_add" value="300" tags="EconomicValue"/>
	<passive_effect name="PhysicalDamageResist" operation="base_add" value="11.8,16"/>
	<passive_effect name="ElementalDamageResist" operation="base_add" value="-1" tags="head,heat,electrical"/>
	<passive_effect name="DegradationMax" operation="base_set" value="500,1000" tier="1,6"/>
	<passive_effect name="DegradationPerUse" operation="base_set" value="1"/>

	<passive_effect name="Mobility" operation="perc_add" value="-.06"/>
	<passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="perc_add" value="-.045" tags="walking"/>
	<passive_effect name="StaminaChangeOT" operation="perc_add" value="-.09" tags="running"/>
	<display_value name="dStaminaChangeOT" value="-.9"/>
	<passive_effect name="NoiseMultiplier" operation="perc_add" value=".2"/><display_value name="dNoiseMultiplier" value=".2"/>
	<passive_effect name="BuffResistance" operation="base_add" value=".135,.167" tags="buffInfectionCatch,buffInjuryBleeding,buffInjuryStunned01"/><passive_effect name="BuffResistance" operation="base_add" value=".04" tags="buffInfectionCatch"/><passive_effect name="BuffResistance" operation="base_add" value=".02" tags="buffInjuryBleeding"/>
</effect_group

 

Key takeaways:

 

Iron: Physical Damage Resist Range of 10.3 to 14 (not effected by quality; mod bonus not considered)

Steel: Physical Damage Resist Range of 11.8 to 16 (not effected by quality; mod bonus not considered)

 

Iron: Durability of 400 to 800 (from q1 to q6; mod bonus not considered)

Steel: Durability of 500 to 1000 (from q1 to q6; mod bonus not considered)

 

Iron: Infection/Bleed/Stun Resistance of .12 to .148 (not effected by quality; also there does appear to be a secondary bonus value on top of this value for Infection/Bleed Resistance)

 

Steel: Infection/Bleed/Stun Resistance of .135 to .167 (not effected by quality; also there does appear to be a secondary bonus value on top of this value for Infection/Injury Resistance which is notably higher on steel vs iron)

 

Conclusion:

Steel is superior to iron in 4 different statistics although there is some overlap. Only 1 of the 4 statistics is effected by quality. All in all, it isn't horrible could use some minor adjustments with the overlap. Also, it probably wouldn't hurt if damage resistance was affected by quality. For example,

 

Iron: Physical Damage Resist Range of 10.3 to 14 (from q1 to q6) (added quality ranged)

Steel: Physical Damage Resist Range of 12.3 to 16 (from q1 to q6) (+0.5 adjustment & added quality range)

 

Iron: Durability of 400 to 800 (from q1 to q6)

Steel: Durability of 600 to 1000 (from q1 to q6) (+100 adjustment)

[Carl_Bar]

I wonder who is making this stuff up "in the other thread".

Are these people even talking about A18 or some mod?

 

And yes, armor rating can not scale very much.

We had exactly that in A17 and everyone agreed that low quality armor with low perks was useless.

If people are suggesting to make early armor useless again then... sorry. Not happening.

 

 

Pardon me quoting you but wanted to put this out there and this thread nudged my memory to finally do it. I'd love it if we could get some kind of in game indicator of what the range on items is. it's hugely frustrating having to figure out yourself a lot of the time by digging into XML's, and having an idea of just how good an item si helps figure out weather it's worth working your butt off doing trader quests to try and get a better example, or weather your far enough up the random stats distribution to make it unlikly enough to be worth skipping.

[Laz Man]

Pardon me quoting you but wanted to put this out there and this thread nudged my memory to finally do it. I'd love it if we could get some kind of in game indicator of what the range on items is. it's hugely frustrating having to figure out yourself a lot of the time by digging into XML's, and having an idea of just how good an item si helps figure out weather it's worth working your butt off doing trader quests to try and get a better example, or weather your far enough up the random stats distribution to make it unlikly enough to be worth skipping.

 

That's a great point. Would be nice to have some type of indicator that you got a max roll (or close enough). 😎👍

[Ghostlight]

OK I know....RNG, but my observation is that I have yet to craft an item that had better stats than the one I was already using that I had found, assuming equal tiers.

 

Example: found a tier 5 Pistol on latest MP play-through. I can now craft tier 5 Pistols and have crafted at least a dozen by now.....none of them were as good as that first one I found.

[Kattla]

That's a great point. Would be nice to have some type of indicator that you got a max roll (or close enough).

 

Yeah. Like a color code, or number 1 to 6, or something like that.