Alternatives to the Character Progression System

[Dimpy]

In the A18 Dev Diary somewhere, Madmole said that he liked the ability of spending points to increase your character's strength over time because varying character builds drastically increases replayability. However, there are a lot of potential problems that prop up if this is the main thing giving the game variation, such as the shifting of player priorities from "survival" to "progression", or leading to excessive gamestage bloat.

 

I feel like it's worth looking for alternatives, so my central question for this thread is, what are some things 7dtd could use that would provide replayability and variation, over different saves, on a similar scale to what "character builds" can provide?

[AtomicUs5000]

This idea I had a couple months ago would:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?114886-Scenarios-Expanding-7D2D-Easily

 

The amount of replayability in that case comes from challenging yourself with a preset of character traits, while keeping the games short.

[Dimpy]

This idea I had a couple months ago would:

 

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?114886-Scenarios-Expanding-7D2D-Easily

 

The amount of replayability in that case comes from challenging yourself with a preset of character traits, while keeping the games short.

 

It seemed like you were talking about player-created scenarios, but I could also see some of the aspects you mentioned adapted as a feature of RWG.

 

As an example of a scenario, you could spawn into a map that is fully a snow biome.

The map is given a base modifier for a few variables such as resource abundance, zombie type, temperature, farmability, and flatness, and subbiomes with more similar attributes to the modifier are favored in map generation. There will still be variation over the map, but each map will feel different and require different strategies.

 

You are given an initial inventory, gear, and supplies.

Airdrops are rarer, contain better loot, but POI "loot rooms" are removed or nerfed. At least with advanced technology, the emphasis becomes more about "how can I make do with what I have?" and less about "how can I get more?".

 

Just a few examples.

[Roland]

Harvest Moon has a system where all tools, weapons, items, ores, crops....everything progresses to higher quality tiers. That is a fun system.

[Dimpy]

Harvest Moon has a system where all tools, weapons, items, ores, crops....everything progresses to higher quality tiers. That is a fun system.

 

How does that add replayability or variety? It sounds like just another way to cram in progression.

[Roland]

Not so much replayability as much as variety. Tons of things can be progressed and it is all individually applied so progressing your pickaxe to tier 10 doesn’t make all tools or even any other pickaxes tier 10. Progressing a particular food recipe to tier 10 only applies to that one recipe. I just mentioned it because it is an alternative to strictly character progression. I enjoyed my one play through of Harvest Moon because of the variety of progressions but admittedly haven’t ever replayed it...

[warmer]

I would like to see a few different versions of getting started. The normal vanilla one, and then more of an rpg character creation type scenario where you build your character with a certain number of points. After putting about 500 hour in SP, the first 10 points are such a grind. Now I just open the console and

 

giveselfxp 80000

 

and then complete the tutorial quest and I have around 9-10 points by then which I spend like I am building myself in game. I find it much more fun this way and I care about my character more. Then I give myself 10 iron or below items of lvl 1 quality like in the tv show Alone.

 

This gives me a fun way to jumpstart Day 1 and not feel like you are wasting 2 hours every time you start a game chopping trees and rocks with a stone ax.

 

I would love to see a mod like this so you bypass the tutorial all together and start with 10 points to spend and 10 lvl 1 items to choose from. For my this simulates having my bugout bag in my car or coat closet when the ♥♥♥♥♥ hits the fan. It would add another layer of strategy to the game that currently is left very much up to chance in regard to finding certain loot like wrenches or hammers.

[Dimpy]

Not so much replayability as much as variety. Tons of things can be progressed and it is all individually applied so progressing your pickaxe to tier 10 doesn’t make all tools or even any other pickaxes tier 10. Progressing a particular food recipe to tier 10 only applies to that one recipe. I just mentioned it because it is an alternative to strictly character progression. I enjoyed my one play through of Harvest Moon because of the variety of progressions but admittedly haven’t ever replayed it...

 

 

It sounds a lot like Guppycur's idealized LBD system, where you can spam craft stone axes all day, and the only thing that upgrades is your skill in stone axes.

[Roland]

Except you don’t progress by crafting you progress by using. Which is why even if you develop your axe to tier ten, the next axe you craft is tier one. It is definitely an LBD system.

[AtomicUs5000]

It seemed like you were talking about player-created scenarios, but I could also see some of the aspects you mentioned adapted as a feature of RWG.

 

 

The map is given a base modifier for a few variables such as resource abundance, zombie type, temperature, farmability, and flatness, and subbiomes with more similar attributes to the modifier are favored in map generation. There will still be variation over the map, but each map will feel different and require different strategies.

 

 

Airdrops are rarer, contain better loot, but POI "loot rooms" are removed or nerfed. At least with advanced technology, the emphasis becomes more about "how can I make do with what I have?" and less about "how can I get more?".

 

Just a few examples.

 

Yep. All that pretty much sums up what I was thinking. The scenarios could be player made, and shared as challenges in the community... but TFP could provide some as well. Perhaps a monthly scenario.

Scoring might be going to far, but they could provide a list of people who succeeded.

I dunno... the whole thing sounds really engaging to me.

[RestInPieces]

(only commenting on character builds)

 

What MM says, AKA specialization, but meaningful specialization, is the first way that comes to mind when it comes to adding replayability directly to character progression (not with tools, recipes or other external factors etc).

 

That doesn't have to lead to gamestage bloat or change the focus from survival to progression if specializations are balanced to complement the game properly. 7DTD imo suffers from just that.

 

Also think that while the new books will be a neat thing to have and rng in general is the most valuable tool for replayability, it is a mistake to have any amount of rng in character builds. Books should be generalized like "Wasteland Treasures", not like "Enforcer" or "Automatic Weapons". Finding the latter ones in-game with the "wrong" character build, is just an unpleasant experience waiting to happen.

[pApA^LeGBa]

What i would like to see is the option to reset your skilltree to zero and redistribute your points. This would be so nice in MP.

 

I am always the one who stays the longest on the server. Everytime i end up missing really vital skills and perks, because the rest of the group doesn´t play anymore and we divided our skills.

 

Last time i had to run 2km for a quest because i was left alone, i couldn´t even build a bicycle and lost my motorbike due to riding it while a server restart right before that. Level 120. Nice fun.

[Rez090]

What i would like to see is the option to reset your skilltree to zero and redistribute your points. This would be so nice in MP.

 

I am always the one who stays the longest on the server. Everytime i end up missing really vital skills and perks, because the rest of the group doesn´t play anymore and we divided our skills.

 

Last time i had to run 2km for a quest because i was left alone, i couldn´t even build a bicycle and lost my motorbike due to riding it while a server restart right before that. Level 120. Nice fun.

 

Something along the lines of Ark's mindwipe tonic (think that is what it is called) could be used.

[ARRANOX]

If you remove the agility, strength, fortitude, etc and only have the tech trees like hammer & forge cost more points instead so you can more freely spend points all over the board?

[Khulkhuum]

Concerning starting equipment, it's not that there weren't mods that introduce it. You simply would need to configure the options you could get like have a key added at the beginning, which allows for crafting a set number of briefcases. You open them up and each has specific equipment and set of books that enhance your perks. Additionally, you could add more sequences like that, another key inside to craft another briefcase from a second set with other types of equipment.

 

To make this short, you could first choose a class (set of perks), then a weapon (with a relevant skillbook to enhance some perks 1 level or more), then a tool (with a relevant skillbook) and finally some clothes (specific for hot/cold/neutral climates or light armor, depending where you're at).

 

What i would like to see is a basic set of stats that you can choose for your character before the start and will not change through the playthrough. This could influence the amount of loot, endurance, damage dealt, noticing enemies quicker (from further away), crafting and movement speed, etc. I imagine that vanilla now would have all stats set to 5 out of 10, but you could shift them up and down, influencing how your game would play out.

[Stahl]

In a game like 7dtd i would rather have access to all the perks and levels over time than "make a build"

 

After all, this game is a survival game long before its an RPG and the main focus of the game is to build a base and defeat the horde.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Currently there are five ability scores, each of which has a number of perks associated with it, and the idea is that you can specialise in any one of them and it will give you a different play experience.

 

This is fine, but one issue for replayability is that because all the ability scores are equal in cost and availability there's still a tendency to go for the same perks each time and any long term intent to specialise in a particular ability score soon gets lost in favour of the short term needs.

 

So it might help if you were a bit more locked into a particular ability score.

 

For example, at game start you could be forced to choose one of ten classes (there would be one for each different pair of ability scores). Each class would give you a unique - and preferably significant enough to be game-changing - perk that you can't get elsewhere, and each class would make three of the five ability scores (ones other than the pair of specialities) have increased cost.

 

The idea being that between the carrot of having the unique perk and the stick of having out-of-class abilities cost more it would be enough to prevent people of falling into the trap of every character ending up spending the same points in the same order as the previous ones.

 

Psychologically, as well, there would be the "I've not played as an <insert class name here> yet. I'll give that a go." factor for the completionists too.

 

Obviously the exact benefits and perks given by each ability score would need to be tweaked to make sure that each two-ability combination was viable (although some could deliberately be more or less challenging than others for variety); but then from what we've heard in A18 that's apparently being done anyway.

[OzHawkeye]

For example, at game start you could be forced to choose one of ten classes (there would be one for each different pair of ability scores)

 

So long as it's optional. 7days just doesn't seem like a "character class" game to me, and I'd not want to be forced to play it that way.

 

But, if it's optional, then all goodness.

[Druga Runda]

Ahhh... kiss...

 

If only the game kept the character progression tied to world exploration, things you find, good old times. Find a better axe, chop tree faster. Days when finding a better gun part made you happy. Getting a schematic which was rare was an event. Finally reaching the city at 0.0 was actually some sort of an endgame which could have been built upon.

 

Those were the days. ~(*I did not manage to find another game to play yet which would excite me as much as what this game used to be)

[Morloc]

what are some things 7dtd could use that would provide replayability and variation, over different saves, on a similar scale to what "character builds" can provide?

 

Introduce a Sanity meter!

 

Kill a lot of zombies?

Frequently find yourself with dysentery?

Almost drown?

Sneaking a bit too often?

Getting really, really run-down?

 

You might be a candidate for a psychological disorder! (negative perk)

 

Such as....

 

Fear of Canned food!

Terror at the sight of canines!

Insomnia!

Paranoia...the kind where you just can't hold your breath and remain still for even one more second and you bolt out from the relative safety of the bushes you were in straight into a feral policeman.

Hatred of motorbikes...big and small.

Forgetfulness...you could have SWORN that you'd loaded your shotgun just a minute ago!

Swimming?...I. don't. think. so.

Fundamentalist Vegan. You'd rather stave than eat Bambi!

Kitten With a Whip. There's no kittens, and no whips, but DAMN do you NEED to wear leather.

The shakes! Remember when you could use the Chemistry station with no chance of failure?....sure you do.

Etc.

 

 

-Morloc

[Khulkhuum]

If you could mod perk cost based of a standard value + some variable, someone will surely make a mod out of it. Also, i envision there would be a "neutral" class, where you have no special perk and cost is all the same in every perk tree. This is how most games with starting classes do things, you have one that lets the player experience the game without any additional detriments nor bonuses.

 

Then again, i was thinking many things would be cool to be modded, yet some of these will never be possible due to how the game is...

 

Also, like the sanity + negative perk idea

[Katitof]

In the A18 Dev Diary somewhere, Madmole said that he liked the ability of spending points to increase your character's strength over time because varying character builds drastically increases replayability. However, there are a lot of potential problems that prop up if this is the main thing giving the game variation, such as the shifting of player priorities from "survival" to "progression", or leading to excessive gamestage bloat.

 

Not really.

Survival and progression are connected since forever.

You spec into what you believe you need most.

Different people prioritize different things, therfore they'll have different specs, especially in A18, where crafting isn't locked exclusively behind int(which is amazingly good change).

 

If you are experiencing "excessive gamestage bloat" its because you don't play the game, but grind levels with disregard to what you are prepared for and you will have harder time, but don't worry, dying frequently will lower GS for you.

[RestInPieces]

Introduce a Sanity meter!

 

+666

 

Not really.

Survival and progression are connected since forever.

You spec into what you believe you need most.

Different people prioritize different things, therfore they'll have different specs, especially in A18, where crafting isn't locked exclusively behind int(which is amazingly good change).

 

If you are experiencing "excessive gamestage bloat" its because you don't play the game, but grind levels with disregard to what you are prepared for and you will have harder time, but don't worry, dying frequently will lower GS for you.

 

Of course you grind levels since you are encouraged to grind levels. You can't tell everyone not to, or to play the game "normally", while they are encouraged to do it by the game itself. It definitely didn't use to be like that.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

Ahhh... kiss...

 

If only the game kept the character progression tied to world exploration, things you find, good old times. Find a better axe, chop tree faster. Days when finding a better gun part made you happy. Getting a schematic which was rare was an event. Finally reaching the city at 0.0 was actually some sort of an endgame which could have been built upon.

 

Those were the days. ~(*I did not manage to find another game to play yet which would excite me as much as what this game used to be)

 

That's kind of like the Terraria model of progression.

 

For those who don't know, in Terraria character progression is almost entirely loot based. The only differences between a starting character and an end-game character are:

 

1) The end-game character has more health (& mana, since there's magic in the game) - but this is still indirectly loot based because raising these is done by consuming items that you've found (in the case of health) or crafted from found items (in the case of mana).

 

2) The end-game character has much, much, better equipment - from a combination of found items, crafted items, and trader-bought items.

 

However, for this type of progression to work it has to be very carefully managed. Terraria does it masterfully - better than any other game I know - by having an extremely well designed set of gates in the game.

 

In Terraria's case, these are mostly based around boss battles. Defeating a particular boss will either have the boss drop materials that you can use to craft items that let you get to better content or have the defeat of the boss be the trigger for a new type of enemy spawning. The equivalent for 7 Days to Die would probably be tied to the questing system rather than bosses. Maybe there's certain items that only drop from radiated zombies, but radiated zombies don't start appearing till you've done a particular quest. Maybe the only way to acquire a Chemistry Station is to get it as a quest reward from a particular quest. Maybe there are items that the trader will only sell you after you've completed a particular quest. And so on.

 

And the balance comes in by having "gamestage" a measure of how far along the progression of special quests you've progressed.

 

Basically, you never go up levels and get better skills; but equally the zombies don't get harder over time. Instead you get access to better equipment as you progress through a series of special quests and the difficulty of the zombies you face increases on your progression through that same series of quests.

[Shelgeyr]

...

The equivalent for 7 Days to Die would probably be tied to the questing system rather than bosses. Maybe there's certain items that only drop from radiated zombies, but radiated zombies don't start appearing till you've done a particular quest. Maybe the only way to acquire a Chemistry Station is to get it as a quest reward from a particular quest. Maybe there are items that the trader will only sell you after you've completed a particular quest. And so on.

 

And the balance comes in by having "gamestage" a measure of how far along the progression of special quests you've progressed.

 

Basically, you never go up levels and get better skills; but equally the zombies don't get harder over time. Instead you get access to better equipment as you progress through a series of special quests and the difficulty of the zombies you face increases on your progression through that same series of quests.

 

I love this idea. Not least because it would eliminate the possibility of accidentally progressing the Gamestage beyond your ability to handle the resulting combat encounters.