Who prefers old zombie world deployment over this?

[Limdood]

In the past, before "sleepers" were introduced. there were a significant number of zombies roaming the world. Towns were tense and dangerous, cities were a nearly nonstop stream of zombies homing in on your location once you were "detected." There were still zombies in buildings, but it was the constant wandering of random outdoor zombies that really got dangerous. The outdoor zombies seemed to spawn (especially in cities) just "off screen" and make their way towards you in an ever growing parade of rotting death.

 

It made city looting really tense, as you had to sneak in, outrun the horde and loot fast before a new one started to form and hone in, or be so badass that you could power through the hordes. Even looting in towns took some work, because you often had to work through a dozen outdoor zombies in an area before you entered a house. Finally, wandering the wilderness you'd still run across the occasional zombie (that's actually not that different...if anything, the old worlds had SLIGHTLY more zombies wandering the wilderness).

 

The world felt alive. It felt like it moved without the player. It made sense. These were towns and cities, it felt like there SHOULD be zombies randomly roaming all over.

 

 

When sleepers were introduced, I, and I'm pretty sure many others, initially thought sleepers would be ADDED...as in, sleepers would be placed in the world IN ADDITION to what we already had. There'd be zombies wandering outside. There'd be zombies awake indoors, AND there'd be dead bodies that MIGHT be sleepers. That sounded really cool. I was confused because why not just shoot every dead body once to be sure, but i figured that they might have some zombies not wake up immediately, or they'd drastically increase the body count so that 15% of them being sleepers would often be a surprise and make exploration more tense.

 

 

Instead, we got a complete replacement.

 

World wandering zombies were DRASTICALLY reduced. Towns and cities were empty and barren outdoors. 95% of zombies in the world, outside blood moon and wandering hordes, were asleep inside buildings. Not only that, EVERY body in a house was a zombie - without fail, if there was a body indoors, shoot it and you were guaranteed to be damaging a zombie. Suddenly the outside world was dead and featureless. A part of the game was GONE. What's more, exploring POIs wasn't significantly imrpoved. Standing or shambling indoor zombies were replaced with standing or sitting indoor zombies. And HOLY CRAP the distribution of those sleepers got completely ridiculous! A tiny 1 bedroom trailer home had like 7 zombies in it! The large 3-4 floor mansions had upwards of 50 zombie sleepers.

 

I'm not here to complain about the implementation...about how zombies wake up or not at incredibly weird times...Stepping on a sheet of paper wakes up an entire room, while firing a shotgun 5 times won't wake up the zombies through a doorway 4 blocks away. Or any of the other functional hurdles that need to be overcome - because really, those will come. I'm willing to give them time to make the sleeper system work the way they want it to work.

 

My problem is with the design decisions. The world outside is (mostly) dead now. The dynamic, moving world feel is gone...now the zombies everywhere, in every POI, wait patiently for the player to enter their building/room. To counteract that loss, we are given nonsensically overcrowded dungeon-houses with zombies waiting in utterly ludicrous places. I walk into a hallway and 6 zombies step off of the ceiling-level ductwork that they had ALL been waiting on for some reason. Or I enter a house to find 8 zombies in 4 different rooms STANDING IN CLOSED CLOSETS FOR NO REASON.

 

I miss the old, living and moving outside world in the time before sleepers, and am continuously disappointed by how the non-horde zombies in this game have turned into nothing more than nonsensical stationary traps for players looking to loot POIs.

[Gipothegip]

I agree with this, I feel there should be more zombies wandering around outdoors, at least in cities and such. It would be pretty neat if there were zombies hanging around outside of buildings which weren't sleepers.

 

As for some of the sleepers not being alive, I'm not sure how to best implement it so it actually is a surprise. It sounds good on paper, but as it is now sleepers are pretty easy to wake up and do so consistently, so there's no way you could miss a body or anything like that.

[RipClaw]

I think the reason why there aren't as many zombies out there as there used to be is probably so that they don't affect the performance too much if you are inside a POI and the sleepers awake.

 

If you do a clear quest you will also see that even not all sleepers are active at the same time. They gradually appear on the compass. In a tier 5 quest building like the factories or the hospital you have to deal with over a hundred zombies. If they would wake up at the same time and you would have a lot of zombies out on the street at the same time then you would only have a slideshow.

 

Personally I like that not so many zombies are out there in the world. So I have my peace while building instead of that I have to interrupt every few seconds just because a zombie thinks he should disturb me. The best is that I can decide for myself when I want to build in peace and when I want to fight.

[Guest]

Agree with the OP. What appeared to be a new way of creating tension turned out to be a completely predictable mechanic that removed tension instead of adding it. The first handful of times that I played A17 with its new POIs, it gave a few "whoa" moments, but after that the spawning rules were so obvious that clearing them quickly became routine. It's not that it's necessarily easy, especially once the ferals and irradiated zombies start showing up, it's just too obvious to be anywhere near scary. The only slight shocks that remain are when you forget that a particular floor will give out or when zombies turn into perfectly silent ninjas because of a bug that apparently got promoted to feature.

 

Much like the (initial) AI of A17, the underlying mechanics are just too obvious, leading to predictable and repetitive gameplay. The current implementation of the skill system suffers from this too. Earlier versions of 7DTD, for all their flaws, felt more dynamic, and it often seems like TFP failed to recognize this quality when trying to improve the different systems.

[Andi Koehn]

I agree with op, i loved the alpha 15 spawn system. Looting pois were much more fearsome. You heard them smashing on the walls outside and never knew when they're about to get in and where they're coming from exactly. The sleepers in a16 were a big disappointment and absolutely broken to say the least. Sleeper spawns in a17 are way better, but the whole is just boring after a while. You know where to expect them, know every corner where there's one and the closet zeds are just ridiculous. It's just a hughe step back imo.

[Khulkhuum]

I expect things get more to how they were after we see an overhaul of zombies, making them use far less memory. It's like the limit now is around 100 Zs (putting out a random number) when it should be 1000 Zs.

[RipClaw]

I expect things get more to how they were after we see an overhaul of zombies, making them use far less memory. It's like the limit now is around 100 Zs (putting out a random number) when it should be 1000 Zs.

 

I doubt that even with optimization 1000 zombies or more are possible. Maybe 200-300 but that would be limited to machines with extremely high performance.

[asmosnuts]

Zombie numbers are always going to be a problem it seems, unity doesnt seem able to cope and thats without npcs and bandits being added. Massive slowdown in water works poi shows the problem in larger areas.

Keep adding stuff to a broken mechanic is not the way to go and the people who keep screaming optimisation seem certain its going to fix everything in one fell swoop. Like others i much preferred the populated world to the populated pois. there is no risk outside at night now and the map is horribly empty of moving things.

[Beelzybub]

I like A17, but I do miss the roaming hordes.

[RipClaw]

I like A17, but I do miss the roaming hordes.

 

They are still in the game. I had some wandering hordes in A17.

 

The wandering horde usually passes by at some distance. They doesn't run straight at you. Most of the time you don't notice them at all when they pass by. Besides one must not forget that among the wandering hordes are also vulture hordes which are most of the time not noticed at all.

[Limdood]

I think the reason why there aren't as many zombies out there as there used to be is probably so that they don't affect the performance too much if you are inside a POI and the sleepers awake.

 

If you do a clear quest you will also see that even not all sleepers are active at the same time. They gradually appear on the compass. In a tier 5 quest building like the factories or the hospital you have to deal with over a hundred zombies. If they would wake up at the same time and you would have a lot of zombies out on the street at the same time then you would only have a slideshow.

 

Personally I like that not so many zombies are out there in the world. So I have my peace while building instead of that I have to interrupt every few seconds just because a zombie thinks he should disturb me. The best is that I can decide for myself when I want to build in peace and when I want to fight.

 

keep in mind, i'm trying to accurately remember over a year back, so this is literally just "best guess" - but as far as i remember, the old populated world zombies were cleared once and gone (until eventual respawn). With the exception of cities, which seemed to have a neverending amount of zombies pouring steadily around the corner towards you, any location you visited was populated, but it was a finite population. You might drive around a small town on your minibike and collect 2 dozen wanderers, round them all up and take them out, but THEN the town was quiet. You could set up a base in the middle of main street and as long as you took care of those zombies beforehand, you were going to have a comparable base building experience to A17.

 

That isn't to say your opinion is invalid. I certainly remember getting ganked more than a few times by a wandering silent zed (seriously, ninja zombies HAS to go)...but while it certainly WAS frustrating, with the exception of the old dog hordes, it always felt like I died because I forgot to check my surroundings thoroughly, or forgot to take breaks to re-scan the horizon when mining, or I just pushed it a bit too far in looting without clearing.

[Reth]

Agree with the OP. The whole sleeper system never really clicked for me. Every time I go into PoI I'm thinking to myself - if this was real, I'd just burn the whole place down and to hell with the loot.

[RipClaw]

keep in mind, i'm trying to accurately remember over a year back, so this is literally just "best guess" - but as far as i remember, the old populated world zombies were cleared once and gone (until eventual respawn).

 

What version are you referring to?

 

I started with A15 and I can't remember seeing more zombies in the streets than there are now. The only exception was the wasteland city at 0/0. The difference to the sleepers introduced in A16 is that the zombies spawned in front of the building instead of sleeping inside.

[asmosnuts]

Wandering hordes now consist of 4-6 zombies which is barely even a group! Clearing towns did work in earlier alphas but a large wandering horde was always a threat and numbers were a lot higher at night.

Even dog/wolf hordes are rarely more than 3 now yet you can find upwards of 50 zombies in a large poi.

Screamer hordes are rare and smaller, and the lil witchy girl looks sad with 2 zs trailing behind her. Its easy to spend whole nights mining/chopping and rarely seeing more than 2-3 zombies.

[Limdood]

What version are you referring to?

 

I started with A15 and I can't remember seeing more zombies in the streets than there are now. The only exception was the wasteland city at 0/0. The difference to the sleepers introduced in A16 is that the zombies spawned in front of the building instead of sleeping inside.

 

Referring to A15 and before.

 

Yes, the 0,0 city was WAY more populated...immensely so. It felt like a real endgame. You go into that city and fire a gun and you were either going to eventually have to run for it, or shoot your way through a virtual neverending horde of zombies, including dogs, spiders, and cops in abundance.

 

As i Said in the OP, the wilderness was....pretty similar to how it is now honestly.

 

The 0,0 city was amazing. Whenever I felt bored, I could go there and have a blast, but a VERY notable difference I'm sure I'm remembering appropriately is the towns and occasional grouped buildings. When you approached a few corner stores on an intersection, there tended to be like 4-6 zombies outside each of them. As soon as you engaged a few, all of them from all the buildings would start shambling over. Similarly, in towns, you'd end up with a good 2-4 dozen zombies outdoors across the span of the town, and they aggro'd nice and slow, and from a nice FAR distance, so you had to either no-clear loot POIs, or work your way through a sizable number of zombies before checking POIs.

 

The difference was that it added a real and natural barrier to VERY early and early gameplay. Heading for a town or group of stores with only a wooden club would take you until nightfall to clear those zombies...if you were lucky. It slowed down the earliest days, but it did it in a way that made sense. "I can't loot those buildings yet because there are too many zombies milling around them. Maybe I can go find a dilapidated freestanding house that only has 2-5 zombies milling around it." The towns made you have to prepare to go town looting. You generally had to overgear it, or plan for multiple days away from "home." Finally, the 0,0 city made for the closest thing to endgame content this game has had yet.

[hotpoon]

I agree with the OP.

 

Pre A16, I remember having to approach the corner of a town (any town) with caution, and I would snipe them with my crossbow from afar. Eventually I would inch my way forward, systematically break into buildings one by one cleaning up, but with zombies continuing to spawn. I loved that, except when one would spawn right behind me while I was fighting others. We all know in this game that when a zombie is behind you, it suddenly gets laryngitis and no longer makes the loud gurgling noises, so I died, in my opinion, unfairly, a lot pre A16.

 

So in light of that, I was excited for sleepers.

 

Expectation

I thought it meant zombie sleepers would occupy an area, and would awaken when you approached the area (in viewing distance). You could clean them out, and they would only spawn back when you were out of the area (out of viewing distance). So I thought we would have the same volume of zombies to fight, but they would all be pre-spawned as sleepers instead of dropping out the sky in striking distance whilst you are fighting other zombies.

 

Reality

Instead, when sleepers were introduced in A16, there were less zombies, and I would have to walk right up to them to wake them up. I found this boring, but at least there were biggish wandering day hordes every now and then. In A17, the situation has become more boring because now the towns look deserted, and all the sleepers are stuffed into ceilings, rafters and cupboards.

 

The world no longer feels alive.

[KingSlayerGM]

I miss zombies roaming towns. They were cool.

 

And I miss not finding 40 ♥♥♥♥ing zombies in every ♥♥♥♥ing single building

[zombie4hire]

I would also like to see zombies in and around towns and cities more. It is just too safe outside.

[Hek Harris]

The thing is zombies in the wilderness are just easy XP. Of course you can make them sprint night and day, but in this case you won't ask for more zombies strolling around. I only die in POI with A17 (and I'm fine with that) because zombies can surprise you. Not the case when they are outside, quietly waiting for an arrow or a bullet.

[FA_Q2]

Bah. Those zombies are still there. They all just decided that hiding in rafters and in closets is the way to go!

 

[Roland]

The thing is zombies in the wilderness are just easy XP. Of course you can make them sprint night and day, but in this case you won't ask for more zombies strolling around. I only die in POI with A17 (and I'm fine with that) because zombies can surprise you. Not the case when they are outside, quietly waiting for an arrow or a bullet.

 

There’s a reason there are so many reports of people leading zombies in POIs outside in order to kill them...

 

To me, A17 feels like it does have more outside zombies than A16. Nothing compared to days of old, of course, but maybe as the game gets optimized they will continue to up those numbers.

[Limdood]

The thing is zombies in the wilderness are just easy XP.

Completely different problem. Also, btw, one that was supposed to be fixed with A17.

 

The loot changes were supposed to make zombies go from being a resource (source of loot) to an impediment. But A17 changed the way progression works and now zombies are a bigger resource than ever.

 

You're right, of course. With the way zombies are implemented now, scattered zombies outdoors are just free xp. The stealth system means they won't group up how they did before. The xp from the zombies means the first person to enter a town gets a free level or two. Only the 0,0 city-levels of zombies (from A15 or earlier) would be any threat, and that threat would be counteracted with blood moon horde levels of xp gain, with daytime horde levels of threat.

 

With the mechanics they have in place now, as-is, they really can't just wave their hands and say "boom! zombie distribution reverted to A15 style."

 

But that doesn't mean I don't still miss it. It doesn't mean that sleepers were an improvement. And it sure as heck doesn't make the world feel less empty.

[fishjie]

Strongly agree with OP. I started in A15, so I got to experience both. I think also that not all (smaller) buildings should have sleeper zombies. This will keep players on their toes. Also bring back 0,0 hub city - that can solve the issue with level scaling being lame by having 0,0 be infested with wandering hordes of irradiated and feral zombies and make it incredibly dangerous endgame level content

[Dimpy]

Totally agree with the OP. In fact, I made a mod a few months ago that addresses this problem. I suggest checking it out:

https://7daystodie.com/forums/showthread.php?104644-Increased-sleeper-respawn-delay-other-stuff

[n2n1]

Fully agree with the entire volume of OP.