Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[KingSlayerGM]

There will be no learn by doing of anything. I just don't get the allure to that. All it does is control min maxers destiny and you end up doing artificial or repetitive things you would NEVER do in order to grind it up. Like just last night I found myself in skyrim blocking and letting mudcrabs hit me to level my heavy armor and block, because on harder difficulties and the mods I run, its about impossible to get hit enough to raise your skill to a decent level.

 

Like loot every nest and trash bag. I don't bother with that mid game, but if my looting ability was tied to grinding I'd be sure to hit every dumb trash sack and nest in the game, despite me not using a bow at all or care about eggs because I have a farm and as a sniper I get tons of meat traveling.

 

No matter how you design it, it ends up forcing players to grind stuff to improve their abilities and its not fun or good design.

 

Madmole I understand your point and I agree with you. Grinding is boring AF and ruins the game.

 

However IMO the current system is very unpleasant in comparison to what we had in A15 and 16. It feels more artificial imo. I really hope you guys will make it more enjoyable in A18.

[DaVegaNL]

But are there any plans for using both hands or off-hand?

 

I'm sure SnowDog is using both hands.

[madmole]

So will A18 be delivered in the first half of 2019 and will the Behemoth be delivered with it? I’m fine with a response to one of these questions.

 

Yes, first half of 2019.

[bdubyah]

I do agree with the idea of having some learn by doing in the game. Maybe minor and major skills kind of like Oblivion had?

 

It just seems weird I can loot a shotgun, kill a bunch of zeds and then magically be able to learn how to craft armor and stuff. Should have to do something either crafting or armor related to progress with those things.

[madmole]

Cant really say I've enjoyed the last few pages of suggestions.

 

We're moving more and more towards the RPG barter/items stuff, and away from a real feeling of progression.

 

Sure, spam crafting stone axes was no fun. But things like club smashing made a lot of sense.

 

Now let me just go shoot a 100 zombies in A17, and then I'm magically a master of clubs. Or science or what ever else I choose

Very inefficient with the new design. There are now melee weapons under every attribute, so you can get XP using the weapon you want and most likely would spend the perks on improving the stuff you use.

 

You can't design a whole system full of possibilities in a deep game like 7 Days around your one use case where it kind of makes sense to learn by doing. But then again, people might end up spam smacking grass to level up their clubs. Learn by doing forces players into a min max play style instead of just playing organically and doing the smart thing to survive. Maybe you are one of those guys who likes to punch grass. I don't want to have to take 10000 hits in combat to be the master of heavy armor, I'd rather just buy the perk get xp for most reasonable activities.

 

Even the old LBD system you could bypass and just buy the next rank with a perk point. So nothing has changed except we took away the senseless grinding doing boring stuff.

[FileMachete]

Silencer/Suppressor reduces both DamageFalloff & Max Ranges by 25%. It shouldn't.

 

Plenty of pages/vids out there that have actual range test results.

 

Adding a couple pounds onto the end of a pistol/rifle definately effects handling, but it also reduces muzzle-jump making follow up shots quicker. (not sure what "Handling" stat actually does)

 

If a Sub-Sonic ammo type is added then, game-play wise, a reduction in Ranges could be explained for Rifles; 1050 fps vs. 2650 fps for a 7.62x51.

Not so much for 9mm though since bullet weight is usually increased for sub-sonic rounds to make up for the decrease in fps, result being basically similar energy. And pistol ranges in 7dtd are already too short.

[Roland]

[madmole]

Actually i played A16 a few days ago by recommendation and honestly i had fun, i like the skill and perk progression system because no skill will be skipped it will level up as you doing it and has more freedom. In A17 had fun too but honestly the skill and perk system is Frustrating and comfusing. Im playing SP and its hard to choose perk that you need, its kind of forcing you to choose. Im a new player so i choose the INT so ican craft better items but it is weak to melee attack, ranged attack, stamina and health the result is easy death even have armor.

 

I suggest that the skill and perks has more freedom so is not comfusing or frustrating choosing a perk and i can speacialized to other skill and perks just like in A16.

 

 

BTW, Thanks for considering my little request really looking forward to it and the new weapon is awesome!

 

@fataal

Thanks im looking forward to your mods. Cant wait.

 

Keep up the good work!

Yes I didn't say it was perfect, which is why we are overhauling it for A17. Each attribute has 1 ranged and 1 melee weapon it governs and crafting quality is tied to that perk that governs that weapon. Players can survive with one good attribute now, and thrive with two. So theres basically about 5 main character classes now but you can mix and choose as long as you can afford attribute requirements.

 

Perception: Sniper/spears, Strength: Shotgun/clubs/sledge, Fortitude fists and flamethrower, Agility bows, knives and pistols, intellect is a taser baton and an a new junk turret weapon that auto aims for you. You can place it on the ground and it works if you are near. So INT players will either hold the turret and move slow and the turret kills for them, or they can lure zombies into a room nearby that has pre-placed turrets. They do not use electricity but are powered wirelessly from the player, thus have limited range. The turret shoots scrap iron.

 

We still need to meet with programmers on some features but hopefully its all pretty doable.

 

In a nutshell we're supporting snipers, melee bruiser tanks, quick run and gun characters, stealthy characters, and scientist characters who don't like to get their hands dirty and can be support roles with their medicine and crafting of tech abilities. And any other combination you might like.

[madmole]

Madmole I understand your point and I agree with you. Grinding is boring AF and ruins the game.

 

However IMO the current system is very unpleasant in comparison to what we had in A15 and 16. It feels more artificial imo. I really hope you guys will make it more enjoyable in A18.

 

I think the new reorganization augmented with the books will be a lot of fun. More specialization and less NEED for all the attributes maxed to get what you want.

[madmole]

Silencer/Suppressor reduces both DamageFalloff & Max Ranges by 25%. It shouldn't.

 

Plenty of pages/vids out there that have actual range test results.

 

Adding a couple pounds onto the end of a pistol/rifle definately effects handling, but it also reduces muzzle-jump making follow up shots quicker. (not sure what "Handling" stat actually does)

 

If a Sub-Sonic ammo type is added then, game-play wise, a reduction in Ranges could be explained for Rifles; 1050 fps vs. 2650 fps for a 7.62x51.

Not so much for 9mm though since bullet weight is usually increased for sub-sonic rounds to make up for the decrease in fps, result being basically similar energy. And pistol ranges in 7dtd are already too short.

 

Its a game, ♥♥♥♥ realism. If there were no downside everyone would use a silencer, period. Thats not choice, thats a must have. You already get a massive sneak damage bonus. You can't justify a I want my cake and eat it too mentality with science/realism.

[madmole]

 

LOL why curb stomp when your foots so big the ants going to just splatter?

[Slingblade2040]

Is alpha 18 going to be multiplayer focused like alpha 17 was? It just seems like single player has suffered a bit compared to alpha 16. Also what's going on as far as the trader and the in game economy goes? Also will the roaming hordes be ramped up again or will we get an option to increase their size like we do with blood moon hordes?

[Odetta]

Fortitude fists and flamethrower

 

Punching zombies in the face as a viable melee tactic will be awesome.

[A Nice Cup of Tea]

intellect is a taser baton and an a new junk turret weapon that auto aims for you.

 

As someone who is decidedly not an FPS player, thank you for providing an auto-aim weapon!

[Demonoid74]

I definitely would love a viable fist build in this game...with the assistance of brass knuckles or other items would be awesome...

 

Fits my job of the last 23 years and how I play all the Fallouts and Elder Scrolls games...something satisfying about punching Deathclaws , Dragons , Giants and Mirelurk Queens to death!

[Thecolours]

Yes I didn't say it was perfect, which is why we are overhauling it for A17. Each attribute has 1 ranged and 1 melee weapon it governs and crafting quality is tied to that perk that governs that weapon. Players can survive with one good attribute now, and thrive with two. So theres basically about 5 main character classes now but you can mix and choose as long as you can afford attribute requirements.

 

Perception: Sniper/spears, Strength: Shotgun/clubs/sledge, Fortitude fists and flamethrower, Agility bows, knives and pistols, intellect is a taser baton and an a new junk turret weapon that auto aims for you. You can place it on the ground and it works if you are near. So INT players will either hold the turret and move slow and the turret kills for them, or they can lure zombies into a room nearby that has pre-placed turrets. They do not use electricity but are powered wirelessly from the player, thus have limited range. The turret shoots scrap iron.

 

We still need to meet with programmers on some features but hopefully its all pretty doable.

 

In a nutshell we're supporting snipers, melee bruiser tanks, quick run and gun characters, stealthy characters, and scientist characters who don't like to get their hands dirty and can be support roles with their medicine and crafting of tech abilities. And any other combination you might like.

 

First of all, that portable turret sounds amazing. How many hit points does it have and can you put mods in it?

 

Also, wat's the range on the flamethrower?

[khzmusik]

Some opinions on the last few pages of conversations:

 

On learning by doing:

 

I didn't mind LBD and didn't find it limiting. It was essentially giving the player bonuses for what they were going to do anyway.

 

However, I don't mind the current system at all, and probably prefer it now that I'm used to it.

 

The only issue I have with the current system is that the XP gain is far too biased towards killing zombies. But that's a balance issue, not a fundamental gameplay issue.

 

On flashlights:

 

I like the concept of scrapping flashlights for small batteries. I don't like the idea of mining helmets needing to be repaired though. It would be better if they needed "fuel" like the minibike does, and small batteries provided it.

 

But - there was an A16 mod (think it was War of the Walkers) that allowed any headgear to have a flashlight mounted to it, using the workbench and a perk. Maybe something like that could be in A17+ - the flashlight could be a helmet mod (or be turned into one).

 

On behemoths:

 

I never understood the appeal. Instead, bring on the tarman:

[unlike them]

what? flamethrower?

[Odetta]

I definitely would love a viable fist build in this game...with the assistance of brass knuckles or other items would be awesome...

 

Fits my job of the last 23 years and how I play all the Fallouts and Elder Scrolls games...something satisfying about punching Deathclaws , Dragons , Giants and Mirelurk Queens to death!

 

I love punching zombies in the face, I always pretend they're my dad.

 

 

 

J/k

[Demonoid74]

I just pretend they are people here in Downtown Las Vegas...they are VERY similar to Zombies

[FileMachete]

Its a game, ♥♥♥♥ realism. If there were no downside everyone would use a silencer, period. Thats not choice, thats a must have. You already get a massive sneak damage bonus.

 

^ fair enough. It is a game and yours to boot, so understandable that gameplay balance can trump realism.

 

You can't justify a I want my cake and eat it too mentality with science/realism.

 

^ not really understanding this sentence.

 

I'll freely admit to being a poor writer. Didn't manage to complete my thoughts on Super sonic vs. Sub sonic ammunition.

 

A high powered rifle with a suppressor still makes a quite loud super sonic 'crack', when using normal ammo.

The source of that crack is quite difficult to pinpoint compared to same setup minus the can.

For gameplay, to me, the ideal setup would be that normal ammo would wake up all nearby zeds but they wouldn't know exactly where the noise came from.

Adding & using sub-sonic ammo would be when the sound profile wouldn't nessisarily wake zeds in nearby rooms.

And a bow would always be quieter than a suppressed rifle using sub-sonic rounds.

 

Peace

[Boidster]

I'd like to see a more modern melee weaponry mechanic, where the speed, duration and swing angle were taken into account when calculating damage.

What do I mean,

Many games already use a similar system and this makes mele weapons really interesting.

Is there something in the plans?

 

Is that in a destructible world?

 

TFP mentioned before that the issue with the idea of "follow the actual swing of the weapon" in 7D2D is that you may be surrounded by destructible blocks. Think about fighting a zombie in a tunnel. Does the hammer/axe just bonk off of the ceiling or side wall on the backswint and you lose your attack? That admittedly neat-o orange path impacts two walls - do both take damage if you miss the zed? Maybe the zed is standing in a doorway and your swing arc goes right through his head...after impacting the right-hand frame. Destroy the doorway first, then you can attack the zed?

 

There may be ways to solve the issue, but anywho that's what I remember TFP saying last time it was discussed.

[madmole]

As someone who is decidedly not an FPS player, thank you for providing an auto-aim weapon!

 

Yes INT should make a great support role now as a physician, crafter of traps and high tech stuff and the auto aim turrets should be really cool, they shoot scrap iron.

[madmole]

I definitely would love a viable fist build in this game...with the assistance of brass knuckles or other items would be awesome...

 

Fits my job of the last 23 years and how I play all the Fallouts and Elder Scrolls games...something satisfying about punching Deathclaws , Dragons , Giants and Mirelurk Queens to death!

 

Yes we'll have to make some brass and spiked knuckles. And mods for them.

[madmole]

First of all, that portable turret sounds amazing. How many hit points does it have and can you put mods in it?

 

Also, wat's the range on the flamethrower?

 

None of that is really designed yet, we just like the designs at a high level. We'll get into the specifics as we develop things and test/balance.