Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Gareee]

About Horde nights

 

It's definitely a rinse/repeat operation that is only fun when friends are on...

 

Exactly. The problems I see with them are:

 

Big resource drain afterwards repairing them

Big boost in xp, BUT also higher game stage as a result as well, so there isn't really a benefit.

No tangible reward that adds fun or survivability for defending and completing a horde night.

 

I've mentioned that several times in the past, and Gazz always replies with, "Surviving is its own reward!" But its not.

 

Yeah theres a feeling of accomplishment, but when I have to spend the play hour just doing repairs, that feeling goes away REALLY fast.

 

I've suggested the trader could give us a reward, or there could be a special loot drop, but those ideas were just shot down cold.

 

There needs to be a significant reward for defending on horde nights. If nothing else, to keep mp servers from becoming deserted during them.

 

If there is something you don't get that you REALLY want when you avoid them then people will stick around.

 

The trick is having some way to determine if you are defending something in the game, even if its a rooftop.

 

Maybe even something simple like just adding a counter that counts kills on horde night kills and if players hit specific percents of the total horde kills, then they get an experience point or a good loot drop, or the thanks from the closest trader for thinning the herds of the undead.

 

That would also discourage people from just driving the night away as well, if the developers want that potential reduced without adding oddball horde night mechanics.

[madmole]

Unfortunately that is the mechanic we have now. The timer is when morning comes and the feral horde stops the GPS thing. Kill a % of Z's doesn't work very well in MP for those fighting in different locations I guess. I was just spitballing.

 

- - - Updated - - -

 

 

 

I'm curious, if you do not enjoy engaging the horde why not turn of horde night instead of suffering all the repair work in the morning. Unless it's purely the challenge of passive defenses preventing a breach?

 

I think he said why, to conserve ammo and obviously to play legit, turning them off is cheating. Killing them when they aren't running is a lot easier too and manageable with melee.

[madmole]

About Horde nights

 

 

 

Exactly. The problems I see with them are:

 

Big resource drain afterwards repairing them

Big boost in xp, BUT also higher game stage as a result as well, so there isn't really a benefit.

No tangible reward that adds fun or survivability for defending and completing a horde night.

 

I've mentioned that several times in the past, and Gazz always replies with, "Surviving is its own reward!" But its not.

 

Yeah theres a feeling of accomplishment, but when I have to spend the play hour just doing repairs, that feeling goes away REALLY fast.

 

I've suggested the trader could give us a reward, or there could be a special loot drop, but those ideas were just shot down cold.

 

There needs to be a significant reward for defending on horde nights. If nothing else, to keep mp servers from becoming deserted during them.

 

If there is something you don't get that you REALLY want when you avoid them then people will stick around.

 

The trick is having some way to determine if you are defending something in the game, even if its a rooftop.

 

Maybe even something simple like just adding a counter that counts kills on horde night kills and if players hit specific percents of the total horde kills, then they get an experience point or a good loot drop, or the thanks from the closest trader for thinning the herds of the undead.

 

That would also discourage people from just driving the night away as well, if the developers want that potential reduced without adding oddball horde night mechanics.

 

We are planning repair and defend quests where players can repair some walls of a fort, then a horde comes and you defend the settler. If the settler survives you get a nice reward from a trader, as this settlement is important to their faction goals, or the settler gave his money to the trader to find someone, so you get paid after the deed is done rather than kill the settler and take the prize.

[SnowDog1942]

It doesn't need any clear reason why you got fingered.

 

For me, it was for the fun of it

[Gareee]

We are planning repair and defend quests where players can repair some walls of a fort, then a horde comes and you defend the settler. If the settler survives you get a nice reward from a trader, as this settlement is important to their faction goals, or the settler gave his money to the trader to find someone, so you get paid after the deed is done rather than kill the settler and take the prize.

 

Awesome! If you look at the popularity of loot drops in games these days, its a big driving factor for a lot of players. We did some fortnite save the world, and we loved the big loot crap at the end, even if it was gamey.

 

Defending something on horde nights does need some kind of reward as well.

[Tin]

Unfortunately that is the mechanic we have now. The timer is when morning comes and the feral horde stops the GPS thing. Kill a % of Z's doesn't work very well in MP for those fighting in different locations I guess. I was just spitballing.

 

Nah, I mean backup timer so that it doesn't end so quickly, but you have an absolute shutoff point and that it doesn't last forever, till the condition is met. Basically, a timer that starts, when the event starts, but it checks at a certain point, to shut it off, if it extends past a certain point.

 

What we have now is: The event starts at 'X' time, and shuts off at 'X' time, whether or not the player completes all the waves within the gamestage. You can adjust it, so it shorten a horde night, by just having 1 wave, with 1 zombie, and it ends, even though the Red night last till morning, but you can't adjust thing so, the event itself, lasts beyond that shutoff point.

 

You idea has merit (imo), it just needs that absolute point, of shutting down the event, for that player.

[Viktoriusiii]

 

Defending something on horde nights does need some kind of reward as well.

 

Nope.

As soon as the horde is:

unavoidable (aka all exploits fixed)

death penalty cumulative/dead is dead is implemented

and actually threatening so that you can't just do it outside

 

the horde actually doesn't need a reward, since surviving is reward enough. This is one of the few points where I absolutely agree with TFPs.

[madmole]

 

Defending something on horde nights does need some kind of reward as well.

A wandering damsel in distress stops by and says "Can you help me, some bandits attacked us and I barely escaped and can't reach my people before dark". Like a dymamic quest event, you agree to protect her, and make sure she lives through the horde night and then get a reward. In the morning she says "My dad works at Trader Joels, he will reward you" and leaves.

 

"Wait a minute, whos your dad?"

 

"Trader Rekt"

 

BOOM lol

[madmole]

Nope.

As soon as the horde is:

unavoidable (aka all exploits fixed)

death penalty cumulative/dead is dead is implemented

and actually threatening so that you can't just do it outside

 

the horde actually doesn't need a reward, since surviving is reward enough. This is one of the few points where I absolutely agree with TFPs.

 

I'm ok with quest rewards and tower defense quests, but agree that every day horde night would not need a reward if the above issues were addressed.

 

There is a certain threshold though, where the labor of base repair and ammo production to stop the horde becomes well more labor than fun. How to solve that?

 

Once people see how slow leveling is in A18 they might change their tune and appreciate leveling up on a horde night. We could increase XP on horde night as well, since they are running and generally more dangerous than regular zombies.

[SnowDog1942]

I'm ok with quest rewards and tower defense quests, but agree that every day horde night would not need a reward if the above issues were addressed.

 

There is a certain threshold though, where the labor of base repair and ammo production to stop the horde becomes well more labor than fun. How to solve that?

 

Once people see how slow leveling is in A18 they might change their tune and appreciate leveling up on a horde night. We could increase XP on horde night as well, since they are running and generally more dangerous than regular zombies.

 

Leveling up slower? In before the "you are artificially extending the game" crowd shows up, lol

[Trankitas]

Have some self control? If you know it ruins it, why do you press it? Hmmm lets press the ruin button, yes, lets ruin it. OH NO WTF did I do that? Its ruined now!!!!

 

[Kilgor_worcon]

hands down pumped with i have read and the direction i am seeing!

 

And to everyone at TFP, thank you for the many of hundreds of hours of fun so far in 7d2d, and to the many more i will no doubt put into A18 and further.

 

and to everyone that hates remember we are only the players playing the story provided to us by TFPs. with out their vision we would never of had 7d2d. so i Trust that we will only see great things to come.

[Viktoriusiii]

Once people see how slow leveling is in A18 they might change their tune and appreciate leveling up on a horde night. We could increase XP on horde night as well, since they are running and generally more dangerous than regular zombies.

 

Okay look... as you might know (or not, but I've been pretty... open about that ) I play Rolmod.

Why? Because grinding levels is a chore. It has nothing to do with having fun. And since you NEED perks to be efficient, you need more xp.

 

So making it even MORE tedious (you call it slow, because you probably enjoy it, but for someone who doesn't enjoy farming xp) makes the game even less enjoyable.

 

So can we PLEASE talk about active traps giving xp again?

We had that discussion in A15 I think, when I accepted that spikes and so on shouldnt give xp.

But with how rare ammo is becoming and how much XP you lose by "protecting" yourself, electric fences are basicially the only viable defense now. Since everything else kills your XP.

Please. Let all electric traps give you xp. Or at least partial xp.

They "cost" electricity. They cost upkeep, they cost ammo. So nothing here is "for free". If a shotgun turret needs 3 shots for a normal zombie, than not getting the xp is just not worth it.

Barricading behind 10 rows of iron bars are probably the only viable option... or kill tunnels.

 

PLEASE rethink traps giving xp. PLEASE.

[NukemDed]

about blood moon

 

what if the zombies spawned en masse and just stood there, or wandered aimlessly about as normal. maybe shuffled about in a rough circle in a group around your general area.

 

then if you are quiet they will stay that way all night.

 

but - if you shoot one or make some other noise, too much heat, and they hear you, full on charge as per normal.

 

stealth players could sneak around dropping them until you get caught and then, full on charge back to normal.

 

if you are caught out in the open, you would have to sneak past them.

 

blood moon would last for x zombies rather than until dawn. meaning if you trigger them just before dawn you get a full dose of horde.

 

just a rough idea

[DaVegaNL]

Any game with perk choices is an RPG, where at the end of the game if you have different abilities and character than the next guy it is an rpg. How you play defines it as an RPG too, deciding to be a nomad specializing in fortitude vs a nerd with tech gear and a fortress are definitely RPG decisions. Wearing no armor, light or heavy is also an RPG choice. You can be Rick Grimes or Neagan. Once we get factions and npc survivors it should be considered a full on RPG I would think.

 

Its just starting to scratch the surface of an RPG though, there is much more to come.

 

Good to hear that there will be much more RPG-content in the future. Because playing a game as a certain role or function is not the same as an RPG. Playing a shooter as a sniper is not playing an RPG.

[Blake_]

Have some self control? If you know it ruins it, why do you press it? Hmmm lets press the ruin button, yes, lets ruin it. OH NO WTF did I do that? Its ruined now!!!!

 

While I understand the reasons behind it, once the game is Gold and perfect and has been for many weeks I would LOVE an OPTION to remove it for everybody (something in the lines of CONSOLE: admin +players/only admin/noone). I mean when there are no new bugs or testing purposes to use it, what would be the point of that dev tool for the ones that don't want to use it?.

 

An extra option for us players that would add a LOT to immersion. Doesn't matter what you design, develop or balance, right now I can spam 19478569287435 bullets in a sec if I feel like it and you have no way to stop me. CHEESY EXPLOIT.

[THARN]

Playing dead is dead most of my games... I like the levelling up slower idea.

 

Question: For Mad Mole

I know smell is not going to be put back in-- I cant remember if it was a programming issue or not.

But I always had my most intense over night stays-early in the game where I could hear the z's outside and they would detect me a bit while I crouched in a corner in the dark. white knuckled, thinking they were going to bash through the wall to get me.

 

Is there going to be a mechanic introduced or enhanced that brings back the trepidation of hiding and hoping not to get caught by a Night time Z?

[AtomicUs5000]

There is a certain threshold though, where the labor of base repair and ammo production to stop the horde becomes well more labor than fun. How to solve that?

 

I think we're missing some advanced later game traps that defend more effectively with less resource expenditure to compensate for when the horde goes mostly green. Usually in games where things start to stagnate, some new resource is available, and usually attainable from some new entities.

For example, at some point the Demolisher is going to show up. Killing the Demolisher might have a chance to drop some new resource, which would then be used to make some better defenses. Perhaps that resource is also very valuable for other things, so you have to make a choice whether to reinvest that resource into base defense, or into other things.

[Guppycur]

So rent a room from a trader, or build a quick vulture shack on a roof. Try to out run them. Its like plants vs zombies, if you don't feel like clicking guess what, your doing to die lol. If you don't feel like it... I mean come on this is a survival game. Nobody feels like surviving, its just instinctive. You can always just strip down and offer yourself to the zombies and wait til morning to respawn too, an offering to the zombie gods.

 

Or make blood moons more interesting. Yes I know, thousands of hours played, I get it, but y'all are brilliant, use that brilliance to extend the fun with something other than bullet sponges.

 

Demolisher sounds cool, so keep going along those lines. Make us WANT to play horde nights.

[madmole]

Okay look... as you might know (or not, but I've been pretty... open about that ) I play Rolmod.

Why? Because grinding levels is a chore. It has nothing to do with having fun. And since you NEED perks to be efficient, you need more xp.

 

So making it even MORE tedious (you call it slow, because you probably enjoy it, but for someone who doesn't enjoy farming xp) makes the game even less enjoyable.

 

So can we PLEASE talk about active traps giving xp again?

We had that discussion in A15 I think, when I accepted that spikes and so on shouldnt give xp.

But with how rare ammo is becoming and how much XP you lose by "protecting" yourself, electric fences are basicially the only viable defense now. Since everything else kills your XP.

Please. Let all electric traps give you xp. Or at least partial xp.

They "cost" electricity. They cost upkeep, they cost ammo. So nothing here is "for free". If a shotgun turret needs 3 shots for a normal zombie, than not getting the xp is just not worth it.

Barricading behind 10 rows of iron bars are probably the only viable option... or kill tunnels.

 

PLEASE rethink traps giving xp. PLEASE.

With level gates removed if you specialize in combat you get very powerful faster than you can find a decent weapon to use that power with. It needed to be slowed so you could actually smell the coffee instead of inhale it and be at the finish line. It levels about like Skyrim/Fallout now about 7 levels in the first 3 hours, 3 in the the next, and around 1 level every hour or two for a while. If you actively farm XP it would be more. Level 50 is very powerful now. With slower leveling you tend to get a chance to feel every stage of the game more, before I'd have 5-15 points sitting around unspent, now I want to use them as they come in because I feel like I need them and want them.

 

It was never intended to have 300 levels its legacy crap. Eventually we'll put a level cap in probably and make people re-start to get every perk.

 

All turrets in A18 give some XP, (if you are near) but spikes will not.

 

Its not farming at all. I play the game and level up. People who farm and want to get to x level are creating their own hell with game stage getting too high IMO. Its a good pace now where you will find decent gear to deal with the impending doom that is coming, if you level too fast or make poor perk choices you will have to deal with it. Its not our fault, you got greedy and spread yourself too thin, specialize and do well, like other RPGs.

 

That said there is an xp slider.

[madmole]

Good to hear that there will be much more RPG-content in the future. Because playing a game as a certain role or function is not the same as an RPG. Playing a shooter as a sniper is not playing an RPG.

 

It is if there are perks that make you better with sniper riles than a noob on day one. You guys have no idea what an RPG is.

[madmole]

While I understand the reasons behind it, once the game is Gold and perfect and has been for many weeks I would LOVE an OPTION to remove it for everybody (something in the lines of CONSOLE: admin +players/only admin/noone). I mean when there are no new bugs or testing purposes to use it, what would be the point of that dev tool for the ones that don't want to use it?.

 

An extra option for us players that would add a LOT to immersion. Doesn't matter what you design, develop or balance, right now I can spam 19478569287435 bullets in a sec if I feel like it and you have no way to stop me. CHEESY EXPLOIT.

 

Inconvenience millions of people because you lack no self control? If anything we'll do a startup arg like --nodm so you don't have a console, but by default it will be on.

[madmole]

Playing dead is dead most of my games... I like the levelling up slower idea.

 

Question: For Mad Mole

I know smell is not going to be put back in-- I cant remember if it was a programming issue or not.

But I always had my most intense over night stays-early in the game where I could hear the z's outside and they would detect me a bit while I crouched in a corner in the dark. white knuckled, thinking they were going to bash through the wall to get me.

 

Is there going to be a mechanic introduced or enhanced that brings back the trepidation of hiding and hoping not to get caught by a Night time Z?

 

I hope so. Smell was removed because we changed framework and it would have had to have been re-added, and tuning in stealth was hard enough without another bunch of knobs to dial in.

[madmole]

Or make blood moons more interesting. Yes I know, thousands of hours played, I get it, but y'all are brilliant, use that brilliance to extend the fun with something other than bullet sponges.

 

Demolisher sounds cool, so keep going along those lines. Make us WANT to play horde nights.

 

I'm sure when I personally get to a late game, my inner genius will kick in and want to change things up. I usually play to level 30-60 and something breaks my game, so I don't get a taste of late game horde night that you guys are tired of. Once I do I'm sure I'll want to make it better. I can cheat it in to a high game stage, but I'd rather get there on my own terms in a long term legit game.

[madmole]

 

I'll have to admit, I LOL'd. Twice.