Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[Dark_Corvid]

Very few would craft a crappy one IMO, they would grind a little more and get the good one, go buy something at a trader or use one of the backup guns they have. The scaling isn't too crazy. 5 parts more per rank. Weapon crafting isn't a thing anymore IMO, loot offers the random ranges and is the best of the best. Crafting is for when you can't find what you want.

 

In some ways this system sounds a little bit like the one in The Division 2. Eventually, in The Division 2, players get the ability to craft a basic version of most guns. The crafting scales with level and does cost more per weapon/gear at higher levels.

 

It is a balanced system however because later levels acquire materials easier than lower levels. Personally, I've never wanted to craft the early versions again. It hasn't been an issue and is balanced.

 

Beyond the crafting, loot at the same level of weapons of the same type are almost always better. The player crafted gear is just to help survive until better equipment is found in the environment. The system works and feels great.

 

I anticipate the system in 7 Days will similarly feel great.

[Socrastein]

In light of the interesting crossbow/compound bow discussion here I say make it so compound is very inaccurate and takes a few perk points to be decent with but ultimately has more range, fire rate and damage.

 

That way those who don’t perk into archery can use a crossbow, but those who do spend the archery points can be totally badass with a compound bow.

 

Distinguishes the two, rewards specialization, and gives an inferior but still totally workable option for the non-specialist.

[DaVegaNL]

Generally speaking guys with beards have higher DHT levels than beardless guys, and DHT causes male pattern baldness. Its rare to see a bald guy who can't grow a decent beard. On the flip side if you can't grow a beard you probably won't go bald. Some people are not susceptible to DHT , it depends if your hair follicles are receptive to it.

 

Hehe thanks for the info man! Of course, my dad always blamed me for going bald..

 

Being ginger with a goatee makes it easier to dress like Van Gogh!

 

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I have some hair around my nipples. Must count for something?

 

Well.. That's better than the other way around.. Nipples around your hair..

[Dark_Corvid]

I think so. Probably more range and damage to compensate.

 

What about a bit more velocity?

 

It seems to make sense to be less range than a compound bow due to heavier ammo, but a bit faster projectile speed might be a good trade-off.

 

Perhaps being the only bow that can shoot penetrating projectiles as well, though, those bolts couldn't be retrieved. They get too stuck or something could be the meta explanation.

[kamer1337]

in A18 steel pickaxe will be stronger than A17? now we need 3 hits to a stone to break, fully modded and perks, in A16 we could 1 hit stone

[KingSlayerGM]

To me perking into strength seems the most obvious choice. You can mine better than the other classes, you get bigger inventory and you can kill zeds just as quickly. No brainier for me. I don't trust the narrative that you can be a builder by getting resources from the trader.

 

Once I get strength full, I'll probably start intellect.

[Shineblossom]

You might want to do a little research on that.

 

Longbows and crossbows have many differences but when it comes to range and power they're pretty evenly matched.

 

The longbow should be harder to aim without putting points in the archery skill and drain more stamina when drawn. This is balanced by the crossbows terrible rate of fire.

 

I don't mean to be rude, but we are not exactly using English Longbows in the game, are we? Also, you are not very specific, which class of crossbow do you mean?

 

Let's not forget that longbows had around 120 lbs draw power, while crossbows nowadays ramp up to 300 lbs. And i am not going to extreme (like 600-1000 lbs ones).

 

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Hey madmole - why would the messiah perk govern the quality of shotguns I craft? Wouldn't that just be a perk for using the weapon instead? You see, I play with a friend and we split out perks to compliment each other - I'm mainly the resource gatherer & crafter. He does other perks like medicine, gardening and science etc.

 

If we both now have to get into crafting and then perk up in our desired weapons, it's going to be tediously annoying - non? He goes main 7.62 type guns while I stick to shotty and pistol. Again, complementing resource usage.

 

I might be missing something but this concerned me and find would kinda twist the game in a different direction (one we wouldn't like). We also play with group of friends at time and we all sorta share our perks - dedicating into different areas to split tasks, it's fun.

 

Cheers

 

That should be of no concern to you. You are going to spec to shotgun / pistol perks anyway. He is going to spec to rifles / assault rifles perks anyway. So more of the opposite. On top of improving your weapon handling, you improve the quality at which you can craft the weapon you use

[Shineblossom]

Enjoy. Being in the middle of the ocean they were probably isolated from the zombie outbreak.

 

Haven't played Dead Island, MM? I mean, yes, New Guinea is much bigger island and close to Australia. But all it takes is one infected drunk on a party!

 

To me perking into strength seems the most obvious choice. You can mine better than the other classes, you get bigger inventory and you can kill zeds just as quickly. No brainier for me. I don't trust the narrative that you can be a builder by getting resources from the trader.

 

Once I get strength full, I'll probably start intellect.

 

Partly, you are right. But each attribute specialization has it's own benefits

Also, you can work around all of those with auger, armor mods and - as of alpha 18 based on info from MM - using different kind of weapons, since strength is now going to be club-oriented in terms of damage, but other attributes are having their weapon classes.

[Gazz]

Popular myth is that the crossbow was hideously dangerous, but the reality is it was so because it took very little time to train crossbowmen, whereas the English had laws about how much time per day their longbowmen must practice for. Yeah, it's powerful, but so's a compound bow. You can probably get more pull weight with the compound using mechanical assists, which would mean more damage in game terms, but seriously, they're not all that different.

I don't mean to be rude, but we are not exactly using English Longbows in the game, are we? Also, you are not very specific, which class of crossbow do you mean?

Let's not forget that longbows had around 120 lbs draw power, while crossbows nowadays ramp up to 300 lbs. And i am not going to extreme (like 600-1000 lbs ones).

Definitely. Both of you.

 

Depending on which ones you care to compare you can "prove" either point. The actual truth is: it totally depends on stuff and things and it is somewhat complicated when you get into draw weight, arrow length, acceleration distance, cams, pulleys, stiffness/deformation of the arrow and all such wiggely pokelies. (that's a technical term)

 

Unfortunately (or luckily for the vast majority of players =) this is not an archery simulator.

 

 

In light of the interesting crossbow/compound bow discussion here I say make it so compound is very inaccurate and takes a few perk points to be decent with but ultimately has more range, fire rate and damage.

That way those who don’t perk into archery can use a crossbow, but those who do spend the archery points can be totally badass with a compound bow.

Distinguishes the two, rewards specialization, and gives an inferior but still totally workable option for the non-specialist.

While I agree in principle, it might be weird.

Also, it's a game. You're not hunting deer where 1 shot is basically "it". DPS are always an aspect of a weapon's viability and while the crossbow definitely has lower DPS in our game, it does more damage per shot and therefore has a solid niche.

 

Making a weapon Best At Everything is not a good idea. (only katanas are allowed to do that)

 

Realism can serve as inspiration but it's suboptimal for game balance.

IRL a lot of weapons are objectively better than others. In a game without legal or price restrictions a lot of weapons would be objectively trash. That would not be a smart thing to do.

[The Gronk]

I don't mean to be rude, but we are not exactly using English Longbows in the game, are we? Also, you are not very specific, which class of crossbow do you mean?

 

A longbow (which I purposefully didn't specify as English because of such weapons as the Japanese longbow) has about the same range as a compound bow. The advantage of the compound bow is the smaller size and, usually, aiming sights.

 

You can get more power from a crossbow by using a windlass to draw it but that increases loading time greatly and would require a new mesh for the game.

 

In general you can find bows and crossbows with comparable range and power throughout history until people start mounting crossbows which allows for a far heavier weapon.

 

Reason for edit: Pre-coffee grammar. :-)

[The Gronk]

<snipped for space>

 

I'm just trying to steer away from the natural instinct to make range and damage the varying factors. Each is a unique type of weapon despite the similarities of the launching mechanism and should have abilities that reflect this. If one were significantly better than the other in all scenarios people would have used the better one but history has proven they lived side-by-side for a very long time.

 

If it works better as a game mechanic to simply adjust the range and power then by all means do it, I'm just proposing alternatives.

 

Don't get me started on the myth vs the reality of a Katana. :-)

[KingSlayerGM]

Partly, you are right. But each attribute specialization has it's own benefits

Also, you can work around all of those with auger, armor mods and - as of alpha 18 based on info from MM - using different kind of weapons, since strength is now going to be club-oriented in terms of damage, but other attributes are having their weapon classes.

 

Yeah, they keep telling us that you can work around it with augers, mods, traders.. but this are workarounds that will not yield as good results as perking directly into strength.

 

I want to see how good the benefits of the other classes are though.

[Gazz]

If being THE best at mining is your primary objective then by all means go for Strength!

 

Different players will prioritise different things.

I don't see a problem with that.

 

 

I'm just trying to steer away from the natural instinct to make range and damage the varying factors. Each is a unique type of weapon despite the similarities of the launching mechanism and should have abilities that reflect this. If one were significantly better than the other in all scenarios people would have used the better one but history has proven they lived side-by-side for a very long time.

 

If it works better as a game mechanic to simply adjust the range and power then by all means do it, I'm just proposing alternatives.

It does not only have to be diverse. Players must also be able to relate to it and "crossbow slow but stronk" is a well known trope.

 

Also, IRL you have far more conditions to work with. Like spears in a formation vs swords in a formation. Games severely limit the use cases for weapons.

 

I'm all for alternatives. Blade weapons (current implementation =) will be weaker in raw damage but with all the perks and power attacks and stuff you can get up to a 120 point bleed buff which is actually noticeable.

Clubs are still more disabling, getting you more knockdowns and such but blades can be pretty mean if you know how to move.

I also don't want to assign them a massive decap bonus because that means that all calculations go straight out the window and you only have rate of attack and decap %.

[toores]

Haven't been to forums much lately but I like what I'm seeing.

 

Random stats FTW! I was hoping this would happen some day

 

And I'm also getting excited for this whole "classic RPG" style progression where specialization is viable without missing out on big chunks of content.

[The Gronk]

It does not only have to be diverse. Players must also be able to relate to it and "crossbow slow but stronk" is a well known trope.

 

Also, IRL you have far more conditions to work with. Like spears in a formation vs swords in a formation. Games severely limit the use cases for weapons.

 

I'm all for alternatives. Blade weapons (current implementation =) will be weaker in raw damage but with all the perks and power attacks and stuff you can get up to a 120 point bleed buff which is actually noticeable.

Clubs are still more disabling, getting you more knockdowns and such but blades can be pretty mean if you know how to move.

 

The trope may, unfortunately, be the deciding factor. In reality when crossbows and longbows met in battle it was quite often the longbow with the greater power but who am I to argue with popular misconception. :-)

 

 

 

 

 

 

I'm loving the new melee mechanics though. I've been running around with a sledgehammer recently as a change from archery and it's been great fun. I might have to go full Rid♥♥♥♥ for A18 and run around with knives.

 

Edit: Seriously? Ridd-ick? I'd forgotten how much fun this profanity filter can be.

[Gazz]

Nothing is ever easy. =)

 

If bows suck without perks then players will try the first bow they get and be disappointed. If they try a crossbow then it's clear: Bows broken, crossbows work.

 

I have no problem with asymmetric scaling but somehow you have to explain this in the game with few words, preferably with 2 or less syllables per.

[Thecolours]

Any plans to give Armor the random stat ranges treatment that you're giving to weapons and tools?

[FA_Q2]

Just because u arent the best possible spec to mine does not mean you will never have enough materials to build what you want.

 

Irrelevant. Tying mining to specific combat styles does not help the progressions system. That is a major problem with a17.

[meganoth]

The trope may, unfortunately, be the deciding factor. In reality when crossbows and longbows met in battle it was quite often the longbow with the greater power but who am I to argue with popular misconception. :-)

 

Sure, but longbowmen needed (as someone already said) much more training to be good at bows. If you make a cost analysis, a medieval ruler could probably buy more crossbow men than longbow men for the same money. Longbowmen seem ideal for a standing (professional) army, crossbow men for a reserve army.

[Shineblossom]

A longbow (which I purposefully didn't specify as English because of such weapons as the Japanese longbow) has about the same range as a compound bow. The advantage of the compound bow is the smaller size and, usually, aiming sights.

 

You can get more power from a crossbow by using a windlass to draw it but that increases loading time greatly and would require a new mesh for the game.

 

In general you can find bows and crossbows with comparable range and power throughout history until people start mounting crossbows which allows for a far heavier weapon.

 

Reason for edit: Pre-coffee grammar. :-)

 

I see. I am sorry if i offended you anyhow. Just a point out - Yumi bows have draw weight around 30 lbs. Yes, i do see your point, but even hand held heavy crossbows (while being hard and slow to reload) were incredibly powerfull. Yes, you had to stand on the point and draw it with both hands. That might be the real difference to add into game maybe. You know, do you want to shoot fast, with normal damage, or do you prefer one powerful shot? Each of those has its own use

 

Yeah, they keep telling us that you can work around it with augers, mods, traders.. but this are workarounds that will not yield as good results as perking directly into strength.

 

I want to see how good the benefits of the other classes are though.

 

Yes, if you are not spec'd into certain skills, you will not excel in those skills. But point is, you don't HAVE TO spec into those, when you can work around. It is not as good, indeed. But it still makes other builds viable

[Socrastein]

As usual you make great points Gazz. The compound bow shouldn’t seem broken at first and then better in every way if you perk into it.

 

Way I was thinking, if archery improves accuracy enough to take compound bow from unwieldy to deadly accurate then it also turns the crossbow into a wooden sniper rifle for that same character. Especially considering crossbow can have a scope but compound cannot and you don’t need to factor arrow fall as much so crossbow is more point and shoot unless you’re really far away.

 

And let’s not forget that so long as crossbow is the only one with explosive rounds it will always have a distinct advantage and it’s own flavor of pwnage. Those things rock.

 

But the point about the bow needing to be useful from the get go and not just raw potential is critical. Perhaps the poor initial accuracy could be bad enough that long distance shots are all but out of the question until you perk perception/archery a good deal but still very useful up close. Right now I think it’s a bit too easy to stick an arrow into a zombie’s head from 50+ meters without any perks. As much as I love feeling like Robin Hood so early, I would be cool with needing to be relatively close to land a head shot at first, shotgun range or so, then with specialization be able to hit an apple from 50 meters.

 

I also think the spear would work well that way. No perks means you can throw it into their face if you’re really close, full perks means you can launch it into their head from across a small field like an Olympic javelin thrower.

 

It would also make early game hunting more difficult without having to mess with animal ai or hit points. You’d simply be more likely to *whiff* your shots from any appreciable distance until you perk up.

[meganoth]

To me perking into strength seems the most obvious choice. You can mine better than the other classes, you get bigger inventory and you can kill zeds just as quickly. No brainier for me. I don't trust the narrative that you can be a builder by getting resources from the trader.

 

Once I get strength full, I'll probably start intellect.

 

My prediction would be wherever the "Lucky Looter" perk is. Because unless they seriously nerfed it already that will be THE perk that matters to get good weapons, armor, everything (books, mods).

[Damocles]

There could be a “tripple shot” option for the bow, shooting 3 arrows at the same time, low accuracy, with a similar effect as the shotgun.

 

Make the bow more useful when shooting into a crowd.

[The Gronk]

<snipped for space>

 

You'll have to work far harder than that to offend me. :-)

 

This is all dependent on which style of bow and crossbow you include, neither is a specific design but rather a family of weapons. As Gazz and I have often pointed out medieval weapons were actually developed over a long period of time.

 

An early crossbow will be far less effective than one developed later. The same goes with long/short-bows although the rate of technological change was far slower and the long/short-bow was already a thoroughly researched weapon by the time the crossbow was invented.

 

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Sure, but longbowmen needed (as someone already said) much more training to be good at bows. If you make a cost analysis, a medieval ruler could probably buy more crossbow men than longbow men for the same money. Longbowmen seem ideal for a standing (professional) army, crossbow men for a reserve army.

 

That was pretty much my point with my first post this morning :-)

[Socrastein]

There could be a “tripple shot” option for the bow, shooting 3 arrows at the same time, low accuracy, with a similar effect as the shotgun.

 

Make the bow more useful when shooting into a crowd.

 

SICK! That's a great idea. I loved that skill in Horizon and this would actually be a good balance for having the bow do less damage per arrow than the crossbow.

 

Crossbow would have superior accuracy and damage at range, and while bow could have good ranged accuracy with perks it would also have an advantage up close and with crowds. Especially if you could fire 3 flaming arrows into a group every couple seconds!