Alpha 18 Dev Diary!!

[madmole]

I think the problem for some is they don't realize how close the game is to going gold. In the first few years there was all this untapped potential of what could be and it was fun to speculate and throw out answers and Madmole could always answer with "Sure, if we can" or "Maybe, because that sounds like a good idea" because there were so many possibilities while the journey was still near the beginning. Now we are at the end and the only answers to suggestions can be "No" or "Maybe, next game".

 

It's not that Madmole wants to disappoint us or shut down our dreams. It is just the nature of where the game is in development. It is also where the first 20 hours comment comes in. That is their focus RIGHT NOW. They are currently only wanting to get things done and ready for full release and to leave early access and so are resistant to distractions. If it won't help the game go to market and make a great first impression then they don't want to hear about it.

 

Does this mean they don't care about those who put 1000s of hours in or that they only want a game that lasts 20 hours?

 

OF COURSE NOT!!!!

 

Madmole has stated time and again that they plan to continue to support the game for a minimum of 2 years after gold. The content updates they release during that time will most certainly be for 20+ hour gaming. Let them focus on getting the game done and in a tip top best possible first impression shape for their full release launch and THEN it will be our time.

Thanks Roland, this pretty much sums things up. We need to ship the game, then we can always focus on post gold patches.

[madmole]

everyone sets their dificulty level when starting, couldn't you tie that to the biome you spawn in?

 

Only server operators control the difficulty. Imagine on 5 you spawn in the wasteland and die repeatedly because you don't have hazmat gear.

 

Anyhow, I think we should all be talking about A18, not pie in the sky or future stuff.

[madmole]

If we are so close to gold (and yeh, I actually do believe we are) then why so many major shifts in how things work?

 

Even mm begrudgingly admitted 17 wasn't well received; perhaps they should have a serious conversation about pushing gold back, so that their final vision of the game is at least as awesome as the earlier iterations?

 

I'm not whining about being forgotten about, I recognize my money was spent a long time ago and I'm cool with that, but they're fixing to release a fairly boring game with a target audience of 20 to 30 hours, when they HAD a game that gave people thousands of hours...

 

It just doesn't make sense. Recidivism.

What is close at the 6.4 year mark? And A17 was in the works about 2 years ago, so its more about finishing that up to a shippable quality.

 

And for the love of god read my other recent post about the 20 hour thing, FFS.

[BioFringe]

I don't post much but I have read every word in this thread as well as every other dev thread since a14 and I just had to point out a couple of things that I feel are being missed...

 

Dude chillax. There is no shift in focus, I'm trying to teach you guys some game design. I didn't say I was dumbing down farming, I said there is no reason to complicate it and alienate new players, something that SHOULD be a concern to you if you want an amazing sequel we need to finish 7 Days in a way that profits and has the most mass appeal. You always have to ask yourself, is this needlessly complicated? Do I need a wiki or youtube tutorial to understand it?

 

You haven't made enough money already that you need even more for a sequel to exist? I've seen plenty of knowledgeable folks in this thread try to teach you some game design but you seem very adverse towards it so why shouldn't they when you do the same? Also, some of the best games need wiki's and that in no way undermines how good they are. In fact, I'd say the opposite...if you don't need a wiki then you've gone too simple with your design.

 

I love Ark, but is it perfect? Hell no its stupid as ♥♥♥♥ in a lot of ways but with a few mods and some good friends to play with it can be pretty fun. Having to run pipes with their crappy building system and feed the dino stuff to make him ♥♥♥♥ is just too much. You can't even plant in the dirt, so whatever. Its not farming its a greenhouse simulator. Then the 12 hours it takes to tame? Ridiculous small stack counts? Very few things from Ark have inspired our design choices, that is for sure.

 

Ark shouldn't be your standard. There are plenty of other games out there that do farming right. Ark might not be one of them but neither is 7 Days. Also, at least Ark has animal taming.

 

Then they sold scorched earth as a dlc before releasing a season pass. Literally screwed customers. Then the flier nerf. I could go on and on about a lot of klunky systems it has. None of this stopped me from enjoying it for the systems that were fun. Well it did initially, but some friends told me with mods and and options its fun so I came back and got over the learning curve and got a lot of hours in it then.

And yet you released an Alpha version on consoles and screwed over all of those customers. You probably see it differently but I assure you that they don't. Also, are you admitting that a broken game needs mods to be good or worthy of playing? I believe that and so do many others but I don't think you realize that that is the state 7 Days is in right now.

 

Our game will always be hard and a challenge, but it should be accessible and not impossible to learn. We totally care about all the fans, but a lot of you are so bored you are here instead of enjoying the game, and idle hands are the devils workshop.

Why are they bored? Maybe because they can't enjoy the game? Hence, why they are here trying to help you to fix it.

 

Skyrim is an amazing game but I have 2000 hours so the only thing keeping it remotely interesting is mods, roleplay and weird builds. You sir are at that point where you want the game to scratch that itch, but it just can't. It can't. All you can do is shelf it and come back later and hope to feel a bit of that magic one more time. Its just the normal process. Games aren't intended to last 10000 hours. Its interesting when they do but at a certain point people need new stimulus, like a sequel. Skyrim was the only thing that fixed why I was bored with Oblivion, despite having some great mods. Once you log so many hours it gets harder and harder to find the magic. People aren't meant to do the same crap over and over again, we're meant to learn new things and expand and grow.

 

How is it that these same people weren't bored before A17 yet they had 1000s of hours invested already before that? Your customers want to learn new things and expand and grow but it seems that the game is going in the opposite direction. Every time someone makes a suggestion on how something could expand and grow (farming...pun intended) you shoot it down as too complicated. Sounds to me like you're the one that doesn't want to grow. Also, there are plenty of games that developed with 1000s of hours in mind. One of them is one that you claimed to want to emulate and was part of the reason that I purchased this game. Now I find out that your focus is on 20-30 hours and yes I've heard all the justification of that but the reality is that that is exactly what you've got now...a game that most of us only play for 20-30 hours before moving on to another game.

 

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here so please don't hate on me. I really love 7 Days and I fully respect you, Roland and The Fun Pimps. It just seems that some of the points that others are trying to make are falling on deaf ears. That may not be the case and it might just be a matter of how things are presented. Either way, this is all personal thoughts and some opinions thrown it. Good luck with everything. Despite what you might think we still wish you nothing but the best because we believe in you and want this game to succeed. Peace.

[madmole]

Am I the only one thinks that this 20-30 hour stuff is filling the early game with more cool stuff/content/experience, just as we have later on..lategame ? That is how many more people will be attracted and noone will leave..

 

Cmon, its not serious to think that they will just leave hardcore players just like that. Flat eartheners !

 

 

 

I hope I never see a further discussion on this topic.

 

I second that, the notion is ridiculous. We're focused on the 20-30 hour player right now, (and actually adding many T3 items you can find late game) and later we can focus on the 100 hour+ experience, because we'll have you all by then anyway. We don't like 2 hour players slipping through our fingers over an ARK like experience that I had is all. So if we make the first 30 hours play great, and easy to understand they might get to all the late game content. But if they are stonewalled at 1 hour and rage quit, its just cutting us off at the kneecaps, and that will affect our ability to add more late game content. So like it or not, the Johnny Newcomes are paying the bills to move forward.

[madmole]

Having a hand to hand perk and boost (knuckles) would be great. In Skyrim I have always tried to be a dedicated boxer.

 

Except they didn't have a perk tree dedicated to it and it was biased towards the Kajiit. It was a sub skill of heavy armor, it never really felt that great. You can do it in Fallout 4 but its cheesy using vats all the time to close the distance in a milisecond.

[madmole]

I don't post much but I have read every word in this thread as well as every other dev thread since a14 and I just had to point out a couple of things that I feel are being missed...

 

 

 

I'm mostly playing Devil's Advocate here so please don't hate on me. I really love 7 Days and I fully respect you, Roland and The Fun Pimps. It just seems that some of the points that others are trying to make are falling on deaf ears. That may not be the case and it might just be a matter of how things are presented. Either way, this is all personal thoughts and some opinions thrown it. Good luck with everything. Despite what you might think we still wish you nothing but the best because we believe in you and want this game to succeed. Peace.

Farming is done. It works. Its not a major component of the game and most players don't even bother with it, why should we redesign it for the 20th time? There are a lot of players tired of us changing things that don't need changed, and I'm saying farming is one of those things.

 

Anyhow we're working on making most of the A16 players happier, I think it was the lack of a reason to go looting and too much stamina drain and too much grind and level gates and performance all at once causing most of the grief. We're working hard to overcome these issues and I am truly excited for A18 I think the progression system is going to be much better. We're planning on testing and balancing quite a while before it goes out, so hopefully we can redeem ourselves to the long time fans.

[xyth]

Based on all I have read, it sounds like the current development strategy is sound. The game needs to pass the 20 hour newbie test first before anything else is focused on. Did they stay and want more after 20 hours? If not, you have major problems. In my view, a game is much like a story, with three phases. Those first 20 hours introduce the plot, characters etc. The middle is where things develop and significant challenges occur. The end game varies, but it can be pursuing individual goals like just survive, be all you can be, or chill out and create.

 

To me, as a 2000+ hour player (although id guess 1/2 of that is developing/testing mods) who had a long career as a director of software development teams, the current game offers good content and progression for all three phases. With the modding hooks, it is possible to make this sandbox tell just about any story one could imagine. It is impossible for TFP to deliver everyone's idea of "their" personal story, so we get TFPs story and the tools to make it our own. That is more than enough for me.

[hiigaran]

Reading a lot of coments.. the main critics i think about this game are the amount of content dedicated to the RPG aspect.the level system..the amount of data in the screen transform the game mecanics in meta games...

I want to hide..i want to administrate ammo And food..zombies are XP piٌatas..not things to fear And avoid

 

there are low content oriented to give us a real Survival experience..all is predictible..i know the amount of hits to kill a zombie or what kind of loot a POI has.

In early alphas we didnt know nothing.going arround with fear

Now with a blue machete And a few perks i dont fear nothing.

Medicines ammo And food needs to be scare.. realy scare

Extend that fear from early to end game..i think the +2000 hours players want this

 

Sorry for the inglish.

[madmole]

Based on all I have read, it sounds like the current development strategy is sound. The game needs to pass the 20 hour newbie test first before anything else is focused on. Did they stay and want more after 20 hours? If not, you have major problems. In my view, a game is much like a story, with three phases. Those first 20 hours introduce the plot, characters etc. The middle is where things develop and significant challenges occur. The end game varies, but it can be pursuing individual goals like just survive, be all you can be, or chill out and create.

 

To me, as a 2000+ hour player (although id guess 1/2 of that is developing/testing mods) who had a long career as a director of software development teams, the current game offers good content and progression for all three phases. With the modding hooks, it is possible to make this sandbox tell just about any story one could imagine. It is impossible for TFP to deliver everyone's idea of "their" personal story, so we get TFPs story and the tools to make it our own. That is more than enough for me.

 

Thanks. Amidst all the complaints this is encouraging. I still think A17 was great it was just poorly balanced and too limited. A18 will rectify that and bring back a lot of the things player missed.

[Damocles]

Except they didn't have a perk tree dedicated to it and it was biased towards the Kajiit. It was a sub skill of heavy armor, it never really felt that great. You can do it in Fallout 4 but its cheesy using vats all the time to close the distance in a milisecond.

 

Well, they did not emphasize it, but there was the Gloves of the Pugilist that offered a (unique) buff to hand-to-hand, that could be used in enchanting.

[Thecolours]

How many more alphas do you have planned out before you go gold?

[Sakurambo]

playing mostly SP i'm happy for the focus on the first 30 hours

i rarely play more then 50h in a word, after that i became bored and need new challenge

 

in A18 there are a chance to see stat regarding stun/bleed/knockout chance in the descripiton of every weapon?

[Weazelsun]

Holy ♥♥♥♥ you win misinterpretation of the year award. How does focusing on polishing the game hurt the veterans who crawled over broken glass to play this game? It improves the experience for everyone. How can anyone become a veteran if the first experience isn't fun? Are you angry that new players won't get stuttering and crashes? We're aiming at making sure the first 20 hours are a blast, so they can become 2000 hour guys. JEEZ COUGH COUGH

 

Yes, to hell with the newbies. I remember back in the day we had to go through literal ♥♥♥♥ to get ♥♥♥♥ for fertilizer! Look at the weaklings now, all they have to do is get a hoe and till the land and spec into living off the land and now they can gather a lot of crops! /SARCASM

 

Though it does make me wonder. Were players really tired of doing the above? Having to find poop to make fertilizer... like for me it gave me a reason to head out. Same as having gone out to find schematics. In the end as long as I can build, I'll continue playing the game.

[hillbilly]

A18 -

 

Bring back player movement speed, this was a ridiculous change. If I want to strafe or run backwards it should be an option, maybe have run backwards use 2x stamina, but to remove it completely was uncalled for and is in fact the reason I do not play 7dtd anymore.

 

Fix the POI's, 100 zeds in every building, another useless "feature".

 

Tone down default zed damage to blocks, multiplayer maps are a MESS.

 

Remove or give the option to remove digging zeds, another useless "feature", that has all but destroyed gameplay for newbies, who as a server operator are the ones we try to reel in the most.

 

I really miss playing 7dtd, it used to be the best game on steam, but as it stands I can not stomach the changes and have filled the void by playing civ V. This game is NOT fallout, please stop trying to make it so, if I wanted to play fallout I have them all and would do so.

 

my 2 cents @ 4.5k hours and maybe 20 hours in a17. A17 was a total bomb, isn't it obvious.

[Eromivus]

I apologize for bringing up farming, since that seems to have turned into something negative. I actually think farming is just fine as it is; I only made the biome planting restriction suggestion because I agreed with another poster about the biomes feeling a little superfluous, and that was the first thing that came to mind as a way to add some significance to the different biomes. While I wouldn't mind farming being more involved in some post-release update (with a good design, not complication for the sake of it), I agree that it doesn't warrant being touched until the game is out. It works, is rewarding, and doesn't add any friction to the game.

 

I also wanted to add that while I faced some hitches with A17, I had a lot of fun and could definitely see the direction you were going in. I think the future of the game is bright. I'm actually really looking forward to the next A17 release so I can start a new game and try to make Red Mesa my base. Love that POI.

[madmole]

I am rewording perks at the moment as we have more space for long descriptions. While doing it I'm improving some perks. If there are some farm related perk ideas I'm game. I don't want to change how you plant or harvest though in this conversation.

[madmole]

A18 -

 

Bring back player movement speed, this was a ridiculous change. If I want to strafe or run backwards it should be an option, maybe have run backwards use 2x stamina, but to remove it completely was uncalled for and is in fact the reason I do not play 7dtd anymore.

 

Fix the POI's, 100 zeds in every building, another useless "feature".

 

Tone down default zed damage to blocks, multiplayer maps are a MESS.

 

Remove or give the option to remove digging zeds, another useless "feature", that has all but destroyed gameplay for newbies, who as a server operator are the ones we try to reel in the most.

 

I really miss playing 7dtd, it used to be the best game on steam, but as it stands I can not stomach the changes and have filled the void by playing civ V. This game is NOT fallout, please stop trying to make it so, if I wanted to play fallout I have them all and would do so.

 

my 2 cents @ 4.5k hours and maybe 20 hours in a17. A17 was a total bomb, isn't it obvious.

Hey Hillbilly, I remember you posting years and years ago. And while I don't agree with everything you say I acknowledge the spirit of your message and think we are moving closer to a game you will enjoy again. Thanks.

[Axe13]

Hey, I've mentioned this before, but not sure if any devs have seen my request, so I figured I'd ask again.

 

Can you make items useable in the inventory by holding shift and right clicking?

 

Pretty please?

[Matyese]

@madmole Have you seen Subquake's Undead Legacy mod for Alpha 17? It's in works actually. He posted a brand new HUD today on forums and posts much more on Discord. It's more than amazing

[BioFringe]

Farming is done. It works. Its not a major component of the game and most players don't even bother with it, why should we redesign it for the 20th time? There are a lot of players tired of us changing things that don't need changed, and I'm saying farming is one of those things.

 

Anyhow we're working on making most of the A16 players happier, I think it was the lack of a reason to go looting and too much stamina drain and too much grind and level gates and performance all at once causing most of the grief. We're working hard to overcome these issues and I am truly excited for A18 I think the progression system is going to be much better. We're planning on testing and balancing quite a while before it goes out, so hopefully we can redeem ourselves to the long time fans.

 

Thank you for the response. It means a lot and I think you know that judging by the fact that you personally respond to almost every post in this thread. Very commendable and appreciated. Farming's cool...I only brought it up as an example but in general I fully agree with what Eromivus wrote about it a few posts up. The second paragraph is very well said and is why I continue to support you and yours. To show that...since I played Devil's Advocate mostly against you I'd like to do the same only this time mostly in favor of you. To that end here are some of your most recent post that I love and think everyone should keep in mind before posting. They show your openness to ideas and your willingness to listen to others even if you don't agree with them completely. Most importantly, to me, it shows that you have a firm grasp of the situation and I remain optimistic because of that...

 

I am rewording perks at the moment as we have more space for long descriptions. While doing it I'm improving some perks. If there are some farm related perk ideas I'm game. I don't want to change how you plant or harvest though in this conversation.

 

Hey Hillbilly, I remember you posting years and years ago. And while I don't agree with everything you say I acknowledge the spirit of your message and think we are moving closer to a game you will enjoy again. Thanks.

 

Peace!

[Guppycur]

What is close at the 6.4 year mark? And A17 was in the works about 2 years ago, so its more about finishing that up to a shippable quality.

 

And for the love of god read my other recent post about the 20 hour thing, FFS.

 

I'll make you a deal. I'll read all of your posts if you read all of mine.

 

(I actually have read all of yours, but things change a lot and sometimes things said at one point don't apply later, and then those things don't apply even later... Remember when it was beta after a17?)

 

Point is, I get that you guys want to get to gold, it simply makes sense, but after having pushed out a VERY unpopular major alpha, is this really the right time?

 

Yeh yeh post gold dlc etc, but then that makes good arbitrary, so what's the point of pushing to gold?

 

Help me understand. (Not that you owe me, I'm not an entitled flake)

[Ezed]

I am rewording perks at the moment as we have more space for long descriptions. While doing it I'm improving some perks. If there are some farm related perk ideas I'm game. I don't want to change how you plant or harvest though in this conversation.

 

I hope you drop the 'Perception', 'Agility', etc tabs. Besides the fact they're too Fallout-ish, for me trying to get back into the game I find it frustrating to have to try and find the perk I want. IE..looking for something to boost my archery...is that under Perception or Intelligence, or what...so I have to go through each page reading each sub-heading. Eventually I may memorize them but maybe just make the tabs, 'Ranged Weapons', 'Melee', 'Looting' etc. To me it removes something that does nothing except muddy the already 'wall of text' skills page UI.

 

Just perspective from a 1000+ guy starting new after more than two years away and struggling to wrap my head around these new skill trees.

[Thecolours]

Madmole, have you already finished the archery books? I would love, love to see those.

[vonstorm]

Getting better and better.

 

Farming is done. It works. Its not a major component of the game and most players don't even bother with it, why should we redesign it for the 20th time? There are a lot of players tired of us changing things that don't need changed, and I'm saying farming is one of those things.

 

Anyhow we're working on making most of the A16 players happier, I think it was the lack of a reason to go looting and too much stamina drain and too much grind and level gates and performance all at once causing most of the grief. We're working hard to overcome these issues and I am truly excited for A18 I think the progression system is going to be much better. We're planning on testing and balancing quite a while before it goes out, so hopefully we can redeem ourselves to the long time fans.

 

This is probably the best quote Ive read in a while. Added to the setup options we now have I think the game just took a huge leap forward with the above. Hopefully when it goes Gold, we will get more setup options to further define the environment.